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a new kjerag ? is it as accesible as the divingboard or a hike like kalskraa, never been to yosemite

Some people jumped el cap in the 70s, and maybe someones jumped halfdome, Im not sure. I think they have guards at those two, and theyre the only jumpable things in that valley.

I think we will cure fucking AIDS before this happens. If it did happen, & it wont, then it would be the most regulated strictly enforced BASE site in the world. It is like that now for hang gliders & for good reason. Yosemite is a treasure & should be cherished & any activity involving flight in any aspect should be approached with the utmost respect for the environment & the community of people who share that environment. BASE jumpers have burned too many bridges here. I think that climbing & hang gliding would be illegal as well if it were not for tradition & good standing amongst Park Officials. In our Lawsuit ridden sick fucking society, why would anyone want to take a chance on a bunch of idiots who jump off shit for fun? & we are idiots, you cannot argue otherwise.

I would gather all my buddies in a big truck, drive to the top and have a huge bonfire to celebrate.

Yah honestly, there is no reason for them to legalize it. It wont make them any more money, and they already have tourists bumper to bumper the the park during the high season. Whats the incentive for them?

A child born with HIV has been effectively cured http://m.guardiannews.com/...-cure-child-born-hiv
I'm gonna go get those exits soon

Sorry man, the USBA and even the ABP have worked for years talking to the the NPS. Too much bad blood from the old days, and just when they were mellowing after Sue O bounced several years before, the group with Tom S and Jan D and others were escorted by the rangers to the top and everyone knew it was a demo protest jump to prove how safe El Cap was so they would consider a permit program. El Cap is as safe as any big wall in Europe. BUT, as you likely know, Jan bounced big time by never finding the pilot chute at all, even after 2 or 3 quick attemps at grabs and about 17 sedconds later using borrowed gear with a different pilot chute location she bounced vividly. That plus the Sue Ottens fatality, which decapitated her just a few years earlier which happened just a couple days before The USBA, written by Jean Boenish sent a well written Environmental Assessment that I reviewd from a legal standpoint, to the NPS to start a permit process rather than let folks die jumping borrowed gear at night sneaking away from rangers. Well the Environmental Assessment hit their mailbox the Monday after Ottens bounced, which I hear was really ugly as she scrapped the wall for a long time and lost her fingerprints and head, so I'm guessing our Env assessment went in the trash. We were getting hopeful until Jan D bounced. The NPS admin staff were now mostly from the administrative ranks rather than the law enforcement background so we figured we had a chance at a new beginning, but that stopped that. My personal opinion, I'm sure is going to be controversial with some, but I feel on a demo jump to prove how safe it is, the jumpers should have all been current and jumping their own familiar gear even if it was going to get confiscated for up to a year. It was stupid to let her go with a borrowed rig with a different PC location from what she was used to and she was not current. She went back for that pilot chute about 3 times, but never turned on her back to find the damn thing. Sorry Tom, but it's my feeling that it set back any positive efforts for years just when the sport was getting safer and more visible.
On the question do we really want Yosemite legal. Yes I do for selfish reasons and because some of my good friends are wingsuiters who would love to bring the WWL and wingsuit BASE to the US mountains. Since I have 30 years exp. in BASE and 11 more in RW skydiving, I would love to learn more about BASE wingsuiting in the US. BUT in reality, Joy and I have issued BASE numbers since they were at 540 well over 15 years ago and have seem many new BASEers who have very little to no terminal experience and see You Tube and think it's a circus act they could do without real skydiving training. Right now, it may be best to keep it illegal to keep what I call whuffo urban BASE jumpers off of big wallst till they get more airtime and terminal control. Otherwise, we'll just waste another 30 years to jump big walls in the US. My bro and I were in Norway in 99 with Thor Alex when he died and the NY Post interviewed us and I told them why we have to come from the land of the "FREE" to jump the big walls in Norway. Anyway, sorry if I hurt a few feelings, but it's my opinion.
Rick H
Director USBA
BASE 38
Rick

 
Just because they make sufficient funds from selling admission tickets like Disney land & revenue from issuing DWI's to campers . That does not make it right .
When your Government passes law making BASE Jump illegal, as well as other activities that involve use of land and air that is your public property . You are all free to covertly participate in that activity without regard to law and behave freely as the criminals they paint you to be .
.

Hey man, I agree that civil disobedience is and always has been a vital part of American culture. It helps Congress or agencies get off their asses and change things that may really need changing like the Jim Crow laws in the 50's and 60's. Go for it, just do us all a favor and pay attention to detail not to get hurt or busted. BASE is becoming more acceptable and bad incidents on Govt. lands just hardens their positions and they love to have excuses to hate us.

Hi Rick,
A great assessment of the quandary of legalizing BASE in the National Parks.
Robin Heid's efforts are not well known to the newer jumpers, but as you know he was targeting the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park in the hopes of establishing a test ground for legal BASE.
As someone who is very familiar with that location, (wonderful Trout fishing at the base of the wall, which I believe you are familiar with), I used to cringe at the thought of jumpers with minimal Big wall skills, and marginal canopy experience, being unleashed in that environment.
With today's propensity for jumpers experienced only in the short delay BASE environment to see themselves as capable of moving rapidly into the Big Wall, Wingsuit, environment, would unfortunately turn Yosemite into the Luaterbrunnen of the US and it's not hard to imagine the carnage that would ensue.
You have the unique perspective of analyzing the skills of a large segment of today's jumpers.
It's really time that we accept that with current Wingsuit flying having reached the level it has, and the trends reflected on the BFL,that we can no longer view just any BASE jumper as qualifying for all aspects of the sport.
To open Yosemite and the parks to modern BASE would not be as simple as the efforts of Joe Svec in 1980, today it would require making distinctions and regulating jumpers in regards to skills, and no organisation presently exists that could convince the NPS that they qualify for that role.
Unfortunately, given the difficulties of controlling the jumpers travelling to the Swiss Valley, Big Wall BASE in the US is destined to remain in it's present Limbo.
Respect and thanks for all yours and Joy's efforts, Regards B.

 Fortunately there is no organization to control or regulate base jumpers in regards to their skill level..

Park Service had the same dilemma at New River in about 84 or 85, when they bought, (using eminent domain), the John Dragon (rafter guy) land at the landing area. Once it was a National Park Service property they would love to have closed it but it brought way too much money into a poor state so a W. VA Senator helped. Their problem was how to regulate who could jump without assuming the liabilities for making decisions like that not knowing anything about BASE jumping. By then, Carl had died and I was helping Jean some to convince the NPS to let us, the USBA have the permit and not give individual permits to the jumpers. That way we decided and their grant of this authority allowed us to actually tell a one jump whuffo not to go and he would not be covered by the permit and could be charged. This worked until in the early 90's when an person I will not name, cooperated with the NPS and agreed to furnish photo ID's of all the jumpers for years. Jean refused as did I and the next year the NPS helped convince the local Govt to let this unnamed person run bridge day. Jean and I said go for it. USBA fought individual ID's for about 8 years, but the NPS knew we were using the success of Bridge Day against them to get Yosemite legal since Bridge Day had a good safety record for the most part. Here we are almost 30 years later and I think it'll be a while before the NPS allows jumping unless it's well sponsored, (Hey Red Bull), since all the agencies are needing money.

You hit it Rick. Show government money and you will get what you want.

Sorry, Rick, while I concur with your concluding musing that it may be best to let lying dogs sleep for a while in terms of trying to open up US national parks to backcountry parachuting, I must correct you on two serious factual errors you made in your comments:

1) Jan's currency and borrowed gear. Compared to today's BASE jumpers with hundreds of Perrine jumps and/or boatloads of big wall jumps made in Europe, she didn't have a lot of jumps. However, she was a highly experienced professional parachutist with more than enough jumps and currency to make a long tracking jump from El Capitan. Period. Full stop.

Moreover, while her current rig had a BOC pilot chute, she had made between 1/3 and 1/2 of all her jumps with a leg-strap-mounted PC, so she had leg strap muscle memory and mental awareness at least equal to her BOC muscle memory/mental awareness. Even more importantly, many of Jan's jumps were stunt jumps for movies that involved wearing totally custom, completely outside-the-bell-curve skydiving equipment. Ergo, Jan was, in fact, more qualified and experienced than anyone else on that load to jump a borrowed rig with a deployment system on which she'd already made hundreds of jumps. Period. Full stop.

Why she couldn't or didn't pull is an enduring mystery and not explainable by any conventional means. I watched multiple videos of the whole thing multiple times and it makes no sense whatever. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

But that's another conversation.

2. The purpose of the jump. It was not a demonstration jump made "to prove how safe El Cap was so they would consider a permit program." We had already demonstrated during the previous 22 years that BASE jumping in Yosemite, even under outlaw conditions, was unarguably no more dangerous than the other dangerous sports already allowed in the park and arguably less dangerous than some of the activities. Most notable among the latter: walking on slick rocks in street shoes next to runoff-swollen rivers, which results in more fatalities each year in Yosemite than there have been total BASE fatalities since 1978!).

The purpose on the 1999 jump was solely and only to protest the discrimination being visited upon jumpers by its non-fact-based prohibition, and to focus public attention thereon.

I know this because I was one of the event designers.

I know this because I wrote the press releases explaining its purpose and I wrote the ten talking points Jan (and some of the others) rehearsed on their hike to the top.

I was also the person who distributed the press releases to the Associated Press reporter and other media outlets ahead of the event.

Unfortunately, when Jan went in, the moron AP reporter (I know, I know, "moron reporter" is redundant) didn't write his story based on what was written in the press release -- or even based on interviews with people associated with the event; he literally turned to some random people next to him who may or may not have even been jumpers and asked them what they thought the jumpers were trying to accomplish and those random people said some variation on "D'uh, I dunno, I guess prove that it was safe?"

And then that became his lead and then the rest of the media picked it up and now even one of the oldest and most savvy BASE jumpers in the world is repeating it.

Sigh...

Unfortunately, I had another commitment and was not able to be there in person, and when the group leader declined to jump after Jan went in, there was no spokesman on the ground to set the moron straight, so this silliness about "they did it to prove it was safe" persists.

And it absolutely is silliness because no one in their right mind would try to "prove" that BASE jumping is "safe."

In fact, we went to great lengths in the press releases and talking points to make it clear that we were not claiming it was safe, but instead calling for an end to the discrimination against us and to let us take our place alongside the other dangerous activities that are allowed, such as rock climbing, slack roping, bouldering and on the aforementioned walking slick rocks in street shoes next to runoff-swollen rivers.


BASE 44
Founding Secretary, U.S. BASE Association
Founder, Alliance of Backcountry Parachutists

P.S. The other high-profile death was not Sue Ottens. Her name was Sue Oatley and she died in 1993, after losing control during her launch and hitting the wall, which came after lying to her mentor and others about her parachuting experience. That fatality was indeed a case of being in way over her head.

Thanks for the kudos and kind words, but the idea of "making distinctions and regulating jumpers in regards to skills" is exactly what doomed jumping in NPS-occupied territory in the first place!

Rock climbers are not regulated and neither should we be. In fact, your argument that "(i)t's really time that we accept that with current Wingsuit flying having reached the level it has, and the trends reflected on the BFL, that we can no longer view just any BASE jumper as qualifying for all aspects of the sport" was argued out in Yosemite and Rocky Mountain National Park in the 1950s and 1960s, when advances in climbing techniques and equipment led the NPS to ban rock climbing because it was getting too dangerous with all that newfangled stuff that is now old hat and SOP.

The very fact that we as a community, via USPA, accepted the idea that we needed to be regulated and supervised to safely jump from one cliff between 8 and 10 in the morning on weekdays led the idea that we were not independently capable of acting responsibly and safely in "that environment."

Contrast that with the fact that literally anybody can try to climb El Cap or Half Dome or any other big wall in Yosemite - a.n.y.b.o.d.y.

And they do. Most of them don't get very far before they hurt themselves or back off, but sometimes they get far enough up a wall that they have to be rescued at great expense and risk to the rescuers. And guess what? When they do, they get charged with reckless endangerment or disorderly conduct when Ranger Rick finds out that they were climbing whuffos.

In other words, the system already exists to handle the dipstick crowd, and the great thing about BASE is that the ones who really screw up are for the most part easy to police up at the bottom of a given wall -- no "search" or "rescue" needed.

It is ironic how often BASE jumpers claim that BASE is "a separate sport" from skydiving -- then they want to impose skydiving-like regulation and supervision over the activity! Keep in mind too that skydiving is regulated and supervised the way it is because it is an aviation-based sport, and its regulatory and supervisory structure is derived from the aviation model.

We need to conduct BASE jumping on the backcountry model; i.e., be prepared, know your limits, be responsible for yourself and be a good steward of the natural world in which you operate.

Because, guess what? It all does come down to money. Contrary to popular legend, neither the Flatbed Ten nor the morons who spray painted rocks and pooped on the trails caused the trial program to shut down and prohibition set in its place. What shut it down was that we, in our skydiving-aviation mindset, insisted that we needed to be regulated and meet certain requirements before it was okay to let us jump.

This meant rangers had to be tasked with babysitting us -- checking logbooks, making sure we had the USPA-required licenses, helmets and equipment - and guess what? They ended up using more manpower each day to handle 10 jumpers than they did on the hundreds-strong rest of the daily backcountry crowd combined.

This led to then-Yosemite superintendent Bob Binneweis to declare in the November 1980 issue of Audubon Magazine that "we had to open it up to be able to regulate it at all... now that we know what the result is, our management ban will stick."

That is what we got by thinking like city geek skydivers instead of backcountry recreationists, and we're still paying for it, so what we need to do is strip away the last vestiges of that aviation regulatory model from our minds and start thinking like people who understand the backcountry.


BASE 44
Founding Secretary, US BASE Association
Founder, Alliance of Backcountry Prachutists

Hi Robin, I didn't mean to stir your tail feathers so much.
I will defer to you on the facts as to the reason the Jan Davis jump was scheduled as a protest, but the fact is, with a one parachute rig, I and many other experienced jumpers would have been over on our backs to find that pilot chute. She made no such attempt. I myself jump a BOC and when I went to Norway in 99, my first jump I used my old leg strap pouch skydiving rig and it shifted and I had to look back and make 2 grabs. Bottom line, she bounced in a stable spread, so she wasn't current enough. I totally agree nowadays there are a lot of new jumpers wanting to do this without sufficient air time in order to just react and not have to think in an emergency and that is one reason the fatality rate is climbing. That should not be happening with the quality of the gear today. I'm not even trying to say she was less experienced than some newbies.
I also apologize if you took it to mean we should not try to continue to talk to the NPS, but my point was about Yosemite. When that accident happened, the NPS admin personnel were beginning to loosen up a bit or they wouldn't even have escorted the group to the top and allowed the jump at all. That accident put our efforts back years.
On Sue, when she went in by backsliding in freefall into the wall, Jean Boenish had spent months preparing an Environmental Impact Statement, with a little advice from me, that clearly made the case for allowing legal jumps rather than jumpers sneaking around at night with borrowed gear. That EIS arrived in their mail the Monday after Sue went in. Well, you can imagine that the EIS went in the trash. Anyway, the net result was that the NPS likely felt pretty vulnerable after they allowed the protest jump which resulted in a fatality. While I hate the sneaking part of the deal, I also agree that we should be treated like climbers and the NPS should simply stay out of the business of regulating us. Given the climate of our times, that is not likely. I do support the goals of the ABP as you know since I was your General Counsel for awhile and feel that we should decide for ourselves if we choose to jump. It would be much better for the NPS from a legal standpoint rather than to try to regulate an activity they cannot hope to fully understand. BLM has the right approach just to stay out of the fray, but if too many "idiots" start bouncing, you know as well as I what will happen, even at Perrine or Moab. We have to do a better job of regulating ourselves unless we only want to see legal jumps backed by big sponsors.
Take care my friend and sorry for my factual errors as to the reason the Jan jump was scheduled.

Hey Robin, by the way, I sure would appreciate you using another name other than, "Ranger Rick"
Had to BS you on that one.
RICK Harrison.

Rick.... are you sure about this??

ANY climber in Yosemite gets tOOled by the tOOl. Climbers are treated worse than vermin. Illegal s/s, road side stops, tickets ect.... it's bad.

Climbers are (palestinians) occupying (Yosemite) Jerusalem. Even though all wall climbers have some Jewish in them since they area able to suffer.

At least climbers and even whuffos are allowed to try to climb without any permits, or at least it used to be that way. We have never been allowed to jump, and they won't issue the aerial delivery permit. From that standpoint at least climbers can do their sport in Yosemite, jumpers cannot.

LOL... you didn't stir my tail feathers; I was just setting straight a long-inaccurate record precipitated by the moron AP reporter (I know, I know, redundant) who completely ignored our "official" press release and people associated with the event and asked random passersby what the jump was for, as if he had not already been told in detail, and didn't know which people on the ground were specifically associated with it.

You do, however, need to quit beating the dead Jan. You assert:

"Bottom line, she bounced in a stable spread, so she wasn't current enough."

The fundamental fallacy of your assertion can be found in the fact that when any of us bounce for any reason making any kind of jump, it can be asserted that we either weren't "current enough." Or "skillful enough." Or "fill-in-the-blank enough." That's not news, and it is most assuredly not analysis. It is a useless opinion based on the utterly obvious: When we die, we were clearly not up to task of staying alive on that particular jump for some reason. Period. Full stop.

The secondary fallacy of your assertion lies in the fact that multiple videos show otherwise: She did in fact repeatedly seek her pilot chute, not find it, go back to a stable spread, try again, then sort of cross her arms in front of her face right before impact. In fact, from the video evidence it can be argued that she was "current enough" to know exactly where she was and that it was too late to do anything except relax and go in gracefully instead of screaming and flailing -- which would, in fact, be consistent with her personality.

Ergo, currency was not at work here. Period. Full stop.

Something else was going on and we will never know what it was, but given the video evidence and all the associated factors, it is absurd to assert that she died because "she wasn't current enough."

So, take care, my friend, and sorry to take you to task for your factual errors as to the reason Jan died, but she deserves better from you than she's getting on this one.

"Bottom line," the proximate cause of her death -- and Frank Gambalie III's -- was neither currency nor pilot chute location but the reckless and zealous discrimination practiced against our community by an agency of the US federal government. Both were casualties of this war still being waged against us and it on that where our focus should be, not on the sort of operational details that are more appropriate for the Incidents forum.


44

Okay, Ranger Randy then... oh, wait...

Guess we'll just have to go with Ranger TOOL from now on.

Yeahhh, that's it!


44

I must agree. We can all have a lapse and get hurt or worse. Hell, Carl was pretty current when he went in and he had more air time than most in the world for those days. As we know, in BASE, split seconds come pretty fast. Sorry to Jan's friends but when I watch that video on Carnage, it still sickens me. I hope I would have done the right thing, but no point in second guessing. Take care my friend and hope we get to go back to China.
Rick

I don't buy that.

I'll accept that the NPS policy was a contributory cause of both deaths, but not the proximate cause.

The proximate cause of Jan's death was her inability to find her PC.

The proximate cause of Frank's death was his decision to jump into the river rather than be arrested.

BASE jumping is an adult activity. We have a right to make adult decisions about whether we wish to risk our own lives.

Our own decisions are usually the largest factor in the outcomes--as they should be.

To claim that the proximate cause of a fatality was a government policy that was ordained years in advance of that fatality is both incorrect and juvenile.

Frank and Jan knew exactly what they were risking, and made their own decisions knowing full well the possible consequences. Let's not disrespect their memories by claiming they entered into the situations with less than full disclosure, or that they made less than adult decisions.

LOL... demolish that straw man, Tom!

I knew somebody would bag on me for my political polemics here, but enough with manufacturing between your ears something I never said or implied -- "claiming they entered into the situations with less than full disclosure, or that they made less than adult decisions."

I assert and stand by the notion that the proximate cause of both deaths was the reckless and zealous discrimination against us by the National Park Service. Here for your further education on the subject is an explanation of the term so that next time you hear it you will not be so unhinged by its appearance that you fabricate and then attribute to me things that I never said or implied:

Proximate cause

"Proximate cause is the primary cause of an injury. It is not necessarily the closest cause in time or space nor the first event that sets in motion a sequence of events leading to an injury. Proximate cause produces particular, foreseeable consequences without the intervention of any independent or unforeseeable cause. It is also known as legal cause.

To help determine the proximate cause of an injury in Negligence or other tort cases, courts have devised the 'but for' or 'sine qua non' rule, which considers whether the injury would not have occurred but for the defendant's negligent act. A finding that an injury would not have occurred but for a defendant's act establishes that the particular act or omission is the proximate cause of the harm, but it does not necessarily establish liability since a variety of other factors can come into play in tort actions.

Some jurisdictions apply the 'substantial factor' formula to determine proximate cause. This rule considers whether the defendant's conduct was a substantial factor in producing the harm. If the act was a substantial factor in bringing about the damage, then the defendant will be held liable unless she can raise a sufficient defense to rebut the claims."

Ergo, sine qua non, their deaths would not have occurred but for the National Park Service's negligent act, to wit: its reckless and zealous discrimination against us. Its conduct was unarguably a substantial factor in their deaths.

So I say again, NPS discrimination against our community was the proximate cause of both Frank's and Jan's death, irrespective of whatever technical and/or judgmental error occurred at the end of their respective event trains.


44

You really want to have a legal argument? That wasn't my intention, but if you want to go full lawyer;

The main test for proximate causation used in the American legal system is the test of foreseeable consequences. In a nutshell, it asks if the harm could have been "reasonably foreseen" as a result of the purported cause.

In this case, your purported cause is the NPS prohibition on BASE, and it's enforcement.

So, were we 1L's in a Torts class, we'd ask ourselves, "is the death of a BASE jumper a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the NPS prohibition of BASE and it's enforcement?"

You're going to have a hard time convincing a court that prohibiting an activity and enforcing the ban actually causes people to get hurt while participating in that activity. You'd just as well argue that laws against drunk driving cause people to crash their cars while driving drunk.

Justice Heid, I must dissent.

Dissent all you want, Counselor Aiello, but once again you are arguing with a straw man that exists between your ears, not in anything I wrote.

That said, the NPS prohibition does in fact meet the "reasonably foreseeable" standard because it is a priori obvious that people make safety compromises to avoid apprehension and prosecution, not just in backcountry parachuting but across the gamut of human activity. Period. Full stop.

But back to the reality of what I said rather than the fantasy you're jousting with:

The fact is that, while I assert that the reckless and zealous NPS prohibition against BASE jumping was the proximate cause of both Frank's and Jan's death, I did not and do not assert that said proximate cause either establishes liability or proves that a tort occurred because of the aforementioned technical and judgmental errors that also occurred in the event trains of both fatalities.

Ergo, the NPS prohibition being the proximate cause of Frank's and Jan's death might be a fun discussion topic for a 1L Torts class, but it's not something upon which you can base a legal action -- which is why I didn't address that until you pretended that I did.

Case closed, counselor.


Judge 44

After more thought, I must say I am sorry for bashing Jan Davis because she failed to do what I think I would have done with a shifted leg pouch. She went back 3 times to try to find the pilot chute and must have followed the natural instinct to get back stable before trying again. As many know, at terminal freefall, we move toward the earth at super fast speed and it is so easy to lose track of time. Even the most experienced jumpers can panic when we miss the grab. It was wrong of me to criticize her personally which I was not trying to do, only the way she reacted. I have also had lapses in judgement which have cost me a lifetime limp. Nevertheless, I really meant to address only the impact of the event on our attempts at opening up the best cliff in the US and should not have strayed into that part of the post that I did. Again, we can all screw up in this or any sport. Only problem is, in BASE, a screw up can leave you only split seconds to take the exact right action or you can die. Young folks now getting into this sport who see it on You Tube and think it is a safe carnival ride need to learn this lesson before they find themselves in a similar position. BASE can be the most rewarding and memorable experience in ones life, but please never forget, it is totally unforgiving of mistakes and we always have to pay attention to detail on every jump. I had no business criticizing the person, only the way that person reacted on that particular jump and should not have done that on a public forum. I again apologize to Jan's family and friends and to the BASE community for elaborating on Jan's currency. I must also admit, the prison jumpsuit was classy as hell as it pointed out the unfair treatment we receive given the fact that many of us are far more trained than many of the amateur's who start climbing a wall with very little experience and lousy gear or no gear.
Every death is a tragedy and sets our sport back in the eyes of "normal" people. We must all try to help each other remember to get experience and to take it slowly before we attempt jumps that may be above our experience level or our gear. Much better to lose your gear for a year than die. Thanks Robin for the spanking I needed. I just happened to be in a lousy mood when I posted.
Rick

You're welcome, and nicely said..

44

Robin,
I think one of the more interesting responses from the NPS following Jan Davis's unfortunate death, was that they did change their stance on one aspect of BASE in the parks.
Prior to this incident (as you well know) an individual would find themselves in danger of having BASE or even Skydiving gear confiscated if in possession of said gear in a National Park. They now say that they can only confiscate the gear after the act of BASE jumping. In other words you should be able to walk around carrying gear or even pack in a National Park as long as you don't intend to jump.
I see this change as their way of brushing of responsibility for allowing Jan to jump, " She wasn't breaking any laws until she stepped of the cliff"
I don't advocate anything but self regulation of BASE. However, given the increase in the past 5 yrs of Wingsuit fatalities I believe it's important to acknowledge the changing face of the sport and unless the people coming in to the sport via their "Youtube" fantasies, can be educated I believe you will see a continuation of this trend, and that alone makes it unlikely that the NPS will reverse their policies.
I can tell you, that from my experience as a skydiving instructor, the majority of my AFF students today are harboring fantasies of Wing Suit BASE. Perhaps this is because I'm in Europe, I'm not sure. I have never before experienced so many students who are only skydiving as a path to BASE, it has become mainstream.
A big difference between a self regulating sport like climbing, and BASE is that it takes a certain level of skill to move upward on "slippery rock" wearing "street shoes", whereas falling off those rocks in street shoes only takes gravity and an" idiot".
Regards,B.

All of what you say is true but you lost me on the last sentence, where you start with the difference between rock climbing and BASE, then describe the way people drown each year -- a fatality count that far outpaces rock climbing fatalities.

Literally, there are more drowning deaths in Yo every year than there are all other fatalities combined, and the vast majority of those deaths are either city geeks in street shoes playing next to the water or "hikers" screwing around next to the waterfalls.

Ergo, if NPS was serious and honest about its desire to reduce carnage in Yo, it would prohibit people from getting within 20 feet of the water, seize their property and jail them when they were caught disobeying the prohibition, and use surveillance, spies, stakeouts and informers to enhance their ability to apprehend the perps.

But it doesn't. It leaves the chief cause of fatalities -- and the most expensive, dangerous rescue/recovery operations -- completely unregulated and completely unrestricted.

As it should be.

When you step foot in a national park, monument, national recreation area, wilderness are, BLM land or anywhere else off the pavement, you should be expected to take care of yourself and not get hassled by the government unless you're throwing trash and damaging protected areas or threatening other wilderness users (animal or human).

And if you do any of those things, guess what? We already have laws covering all of that, so there need be no activity-specific regulations or restrictions on conduct.

It is entirely reasonable to restrict jumping from El Capitan or the Painted Wall in the Black Canyon during the time when peregrine falcons are nesting, for example, because it might mess with their reproduction cycle, Climbers are already restricted from certain areas on those walls for the same reasons.

But these are area- and time-specific restrictions and they are not prohibitions. Ditto for "no fires" when conditions so warrant, etc. Reasonable regulation and stewardship of public lands is fine, and different standards for different unit types is fine, too, but reckless zealous discrimination against one small class of recreationist with no basis in reasonable stewardship is not fine. That's how people get killed, that's how an environment is created that breeds tyranny, that's how you turn a garden into a prison, because it doesn't matter how beautiful the surroundings are if you're constantly threatened therein by bureaucratic predators that make it all much uglier than a lone litterer or a few wingsuits swooping overhead.


44

In regards to a skill based classification that's not really a valid comparison. If you don't have the skills in climbing, you physically cant get up the route. Any ballsy moron can step off an exit point, regardless of how technical the jump.

http://www.youtube.com/...tdrDaGOvl8CzgTRoicEg

And your point is.... what?

As the wilderness-based self-regulated European model has shown over more than a decade, very few ballsy morons step off exit points -- unless your definition includes those with hundreds and thousands of jumps, who would pass any "skill based classification" but who nevertheless think with their balls instead of their brains and die as morons.

This happens across the extreme wilderness sport spectrum, regardless of whether or not you need mad skillz to get yourself in trouble or not. It is routine, expected, and that is why there are rescue services.

It behooves us as a community to minimize the moron frequency through education, but it is laughable to presume that of all wilderness users, parachutists are the only ones who are too stupid and incompetent to manage themselves responsibly in the wilderness and require regulatory babysitters to protect us from ourselves.

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Interesting...

So is the NPS, Hamas?

No, 1361 has his analogy bollixed up...

The current state of affairs is reflected this way:

If climbers are Palestinians infiltrating the Jerusalem that is Yosemite, then the NPS represents the Israeli occupiers persecuting The People whose property Yosemite was long before there was an NPS.

The analogy breaks down, of course, because there was in fact an Israel that predated Palestine, and there most certainly was not an NPS before there were climbers and other wilderness users of the Valley which was, in fact, named after the Yo-Semite Indians (go figure, eh? That's what you'd say to an Israeli to get his attention... "Yo! Semite!), who killed anyone who entered their valley so that the secret of its existence would remain safe.


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Climbers have been getting tOOled for years. LEO's go out on Search and Destroy missions with night vision goggles trying to bust people sleeping at night "OOB Camping".

At one point they were going to demolish Camp 4 and raise a big high $$$ hotel. Yosemite is the birth place of modern day big wall climbing and where climbers today come from around the world to climb the Nose and the Salathe.

Others to test the levels of speed to take it to the alpine level.

The tOOl LOVES to tOOl climbers any chance they get. And Catch a BASE jumper..... it's the LEO's crown jewel of a career.

I know Tom and Denise. Don't know Frank or his family but out of respect I think the verbatim about them should be removed. Just my 0.0002 cents.

And it's not all bollixed up Robin....

You said it how I meant it.

I think an interesting question would be, if that protest had gone completely as planned, would anything be any different today in regards to base in Yosemite?

Let's do it again and find out...

I stand sort of corrected...

BTW, the reason the tOOls hunt climbers is the same reason people hunt all predators to near-extinction; if you ain't a sheep (or sheeple, in this context), you skeer their li'l ol' hearts into going pitter-patter and then they git to sweatin’ and it all jes’ gits so uncomfortable fer ‘em.

Think about it. Humans basically try to exterminate all forms of wildlife that are not sheeplike in character and conduct. Climbers, BASE jumpers, other extreme recreationists, are not sheeple. We wander away from the pavement --- SCARY! It's easy to control sheeple who never walk off the pavement, who always stay between the lines painted thereon by govmints. Step off the pavement, ignore their painted lines, and presto-change, you become a target.

That's because, on a deeper level, govmints love it when you are willing to give your life for them ("your country") but it is effing SCARY to them if you are willing to give your life for adventure, for beauty, for adrenalin, for any other reason than for your country, because if you are willing to die for something -- anything -- then you are a potential enemy of the state.

States want sheeple, they want slaves who fill their treasuries with their tax dollars; they do not want people willing to, as Dennis McGlynn famously said, "risk it all for nothing."

And one thing govmints definitely never want to hear repeated are the famous words Martin Luther King Jr. spoke during a speech in Detroit, Michigan USA on June 23, 1963: “I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live.”

And that brings us back to the tOOls... climbers and BASE jumpers have discovered something they will die for so by MLK's definition are fit to live, and the tOOls hate to be reminded of that because, with few exceptions, they haven't and so they aren’t...


44

P.S. I know Tom and Denise too, and I knew Jan, and I think it's fine to leave the exchange about her in the thread because it helps to correct some misconceptions held by many people, and, maybe more importantly, illustrates how a civilized debate about an emotional subject can be conducted -- and how a class act handles it when he realizes his position was not the correct one.

We could used "Sponsored" new gear. That's cheap advertising too.

Ummmm

remember U-huck????

Nick is still waiting for his shirt. Those ass clowns stole $$$ from their community and never did shit!!!!

Never got my t-shirt either.

where is the thumbs up emoticon when I need it?


44

Sorry about Nick getting ripped off, but actually, it was best that they never did **** because that would have added more fuel to the fire.

NPS perhaps has a continuing institutional memory, but the thing was, a bunch of the chief architects and agitators behind the NPS policy were set to retire later the same year Uhuck was gonna do its perhaps well-intentioned but definitely ill-timed and poorly designed gig.

If there really are some people serious about doing it again, please PM me and we can chat about it. The Jan Davis protest was actually working at multiple levels and, to answer a question higher up in the thread, yes, things could very well be different had she not gone in.

Details on that some other time, but the main thing is, it would once again demonstrate that NPS and jumpers can cooperate (there was an enormous amount of jumper-tOOl cooperation on the protest) and it would give us a golden opportunity to set the record straight -- that, contrary to all reports, there was never any intention to "prove that it was safe" (because obviously it isn't!) but to illustrate the arbitrary, capricious and dangerous discrimination of which we are victims.

And here's the thing that was at work to some extent in 1999 and even moreso now because.... there was no YouTube in 1999" There is far more awareness of, understanding of, and appreciation for BASE jumping generally and wingsuit BASE jumping specifically now than there was in 1999 and way way way more than there was in 1978 and 1979 when the current policy was brought into being by now-convicted child molester M. Scott Connelly.

In fact, this year's protest should be a mix of wingsuits and "standard" BASE because you can imagine how spectacular and inspiring the images would be of peeps winging it from The Capitan all the way across the Valley.

And given the ABP's work in changing the Policies Manual to return to individual unit superintendents the power to allow it without Director approval, well, you can see the possibilities.

So I say again, if anyone out there is really serious about this, and willing to commit a rig and/or wingsuit to the cause, then PM me and let's see what happens. It could even be done under the auspices of the ABP, which would allow certain strategies and tactics to be used that would magnify the event's effectiveness

But those detail I'll reserve for private discussions.



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The youtube thing is exactly right, you could actually get some public outcry.

If the consequences were only a container, canopy and wing-suit a lot of people I am sure would do it. Lots of entirely safe gear out there that could keep the cost under 1500. But the level of attention it would receive thanks to YouTube and the medias current love of all things parachute would likely end up getting the jumpers the maximum penalty available. Does anyone here know what the maximums for arial delivery are? Are there additional charges the nature of the protest could bring against the jumpers?

Any "crime" committed in a National Park is a Felony.... And I would not put it past any LEO in Yosemite to tack on more charges to make your life after the protest miserable.

But ya never know.....

Robin, just make sure you verify the jumpers you talk to so it's not BASE 666 who I think still lurks here.

That guy is a real ass clown.

sorry, not every federal offense is a felony -- at least, not yet. aerial delivery and associated charges are still misdemeanors and actually petty offenses, which have half the jail time and fines of misdemeanors, IIRC.

of course they frequently add charges, that's SOP for law enforcement at any level for any reason... see Aaron Schwartz if you want to see a fresh and current example where federal government conduct was once again the proximate cause of a death.

but I digress.

certainly there will be attempts to infiltrate any attempts to organize a protest, but here's the fun part:

As some of the old farts on this board will remember, the original "plan" was no plan at all; a boatload of jumpers basically said "we're all going to jump the **** out of Yosemite on Day/Week X (I fergit the zact details), and what happened was the groundswell of poop talking grew to the point that the tOOls got skeered and got in touch with some BASE leaders and said "let's make a deal!"

And the deal was that, in exchange for notcreating utter chaos throughout the park, there would be a respectful and orderly protest from one site only and peeps would be charged but not arrested if they didn't run, and they could keep their gear, and everything seemed to be going fine and then IIRC at the last effing minute the NPS reneged on the deal and said, "Oh BTW, we are gonna seize your gear," which as we all know became the proximate cause of Jan Davis's death during the protest jump.

So it seems to me that the way to go here is that, once again, as many BASE jumpers as possible pledge to jump in Yosemite during a specific time frame during a traditionally extremely busy weekend, when NPS manpower would be stretched to the limit by normal activities (and the sequester!) and then when everyone pledges to jump they also pledge to run away and most of them will get away and there will be an entire YouTube Channel video of all the jumps that were successful, and we maybe even start a fund (sponsors, are you listening?) wherein manufacturers and individual jumpers pledge to help replace the gear of the jumpers who do get caught.

And get this, folks; despite agreeing to an orderly and respectful protest jump, the jumpers were met the day of the protest by more than 50 mercenaries from police jurisdictions all around the state, standing by "in case of trouble."

So guess how many resources they'll burn through trying to deal with the original plan?

Except maybe they won't because in these times of very tight police budgets -- and the growing police inability to even buy ammo -- the chances are growing that those other jurisdictions will respectfully decline any NPS invitation to participate in a protest suppression action unless NPS pays for everything -- which of course it can't because of the sequester.

Think about that, folks: There are already stories out there about how NPS officials are directing their tOOls to "make cuts where it hurts the public" so imagine the press NPS will get if it blows a ton of $$$ trying to hassle YouTube heroes at the same time it's cutting all the Ranger Sally nature tours and children's activities and everything else?

Could be a fun summer. don't you think?


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Rick, Robin & other Contributors,

Thanks guys for a well reasoned discussion about the issues surrounding the 1999 protest jump. This goes for everyone that chimed in.

This was one of the most well reasoned and well spoken debates/discussions I have ever had the pleasure of reading on this site. Dizzy.com could learn a thing or two!

I've long been a silent spectator here and rarely participate. With only 8.5 BASE jumps since 1983, I have nevertheless felt a strong affinity for the growth of the sport and the issues that affect it.

I remember the national coverage after Jan's jump. Shortly thereafter, I left the States and didn't return until about a year and a half ago. This is the first candid discussion I have read about the reasons & issues surrounding the protest jump. It was very inlightening and thought provoking.

Robin, though the legal side of Rick's comments appeal to me because of my legal education, your erudite counterpoints put me to thinking about a different way to look at it. Learning here about your previous and personal relationship with Rick caused me to realize that you two weren't really sparing as opponents but, mostly, chiding each other as friends with the same goals in mind.

So, after too many brews, I wish you both and every like minded BASE jumper the best in achieving the holy grail of American BASE jumping, access to Yosimite!

PS. Rick, thanks again for the 1983 Bridge Day DVD you sent me in Korea! I'm back in Houston so let's get together for beer or 10! I'll tell you a hell've story about jumping Bill Legg's mispacked Pegacide spinning into the trees!

Cheers everyone,

Thomas 'Whit' Garrison, NRGB 206

P.S. I didn't pack it.

Thanks for the kind words, Whit. Glad we could flush you out of the lurk woods for a moment.


44

a kickstarter project perhaps? :)

what if it's a 100-way, all wingsuits.. (e.g. 10 waves with 10 simultaneous exits, with 2-3s between the waves) - what they're gonna do with 100 parachutes opening nearly at the same time in 1-mile radius halfcircle? maybe they'll catch a couple but as you said the losses can be covered by a fund

...and a plane (afaik flying over natl parks is allowed as long as u're 2000ft agl) writing in smoke in the sky: BASE IS NOT A CRIME

Sorry, that won't fly: too much coordination, too easy to bust the "leaders," to easy to concentrate surveillance and capturing forces.

No, it has to be 20-40-90-150 jumpers all jumping from multiple sites within the park during a 24-48-hour+ cycle.

The idea is to keep the tOOls awake and aggravated for extended periods of time, so we can wear their little discriminatory butts to a frazzle.

No, you absolutely do not do it from one site en masse -- you go from the rostrum, leaning tower, cathedral, Washington column, halfdome, el cap... and those are just the 1000-foot+ walls. there are literally dozens of sites in Yo ranging from 300-3000+ feet that are all jumpable one way or the other, and the thing with the big sites is, you can wingsuit it -- but maybe you won't so their projected CEP (circular error probable) for where each big wall jumper is going to land is suddenly expanded by more than an order of magnitude, and when you start figuring out how that expands the square footage of possible landing sites for each jumper, well, the tOOls will not be happy campers.

And get this, folks; at the same time you can flood the park with jumpers and their gear who are notgoing to jump. It as now been established (as mentioned above in this thread anyway) that NPS cannot bust you for having parachute gear in your vehicle, outside your vehicle, or anywhere in the park unless you put it on and get ready to jump and even then they may have to wait until you actually jump, sooooo... flood the park with peeps driving cars with "Free Yosemite" and assorted other base jumper bumper stickers, and people hang out and brag about how they're going to jump, and pack openly or sort of secretively -- and at the same time the peeps who really are going to jump just go causal and quiet and low-key and let their jumping do the talking.

The bottom line: the tOOls will be chasing red herrings all over the park and never know which of a given 100 jumpers will include the one or two (or none!) who are actually going to jump, and the ones who are not jumping can literally chat up the tOOls and be all friendly and relaxed and casual and just take up as much of their time as they possibly can.

All we need to do as a community is decide we want to do it, set a date and start committing to be there with our gear, but never ever a single time saying where or even IF we intend to jump and the tOOls will have to treat every possible jumper as a probable jumper and then you overload and crash their system.

That is precisely what Henry David Thoreau meant in his seminal work, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience, wherein he said: "Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence. A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight...."

We are exactly who he was talking about. We have been discriminated against to the point where members of our community have died because of their discrimination and nothing has been done about it because we are too small a group of people to wield enough power and influence (read $$$$$) to change it by "conforming" to the majority.

What I propose is essentially Operation Thoreau's Clog and it could be a gas.

Heck, iif we got enough jumping and non-jumping jumpers involved, we could even expand Operation Thoreau's Clog to include other NPS-occupied areas such as Glacier, Rocky Mountain, Zion, Black Canyon, Lake Powell and several others whose names escape me. Imagine that all on the same really really busy weekend in NPS Land.

LOL... I get the grins just thinking about it.


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I think the madness that does down at twin falls and every bridge day, as well as the never ending fatalities in LB show that no, we cannot behave responsibly enough for yosemite to ever be legal.
Like it or not, we suck.

This is one of the best and most fun ideas I have ever heard. It would either work or they would come up with an over the top insane punishment, like the govt has done with possessing illegal nature.

To Avenfoto

Fuck that mentality! By that line of reasoning we should outlaw alcohol, motorcycles, guns, fourwheelers, fireworks, skydiving, free speech, sports cars, junk food... Just because some people can't handle freedom without being irresponsible or stupid does not mean the freedom should be taken away. Tons of people have the right and exercise the right to be incredibly irresponsible and or stupid. We should try to be responsible and not die, but we need to stop blaming ourselves for the govt's discriminatory behavior.

what if we use robots to test the waters? a bunch of quadrocopters flying above el cap meadow towing the american flag, a sign "stop discriminating base jumpers!" or smth like that, maybe a cutout of a wingsuit flyer? every sat-sun at the same time.. what thye're gonna do? shoot them down? shoot down the american flag?! a peaceful protest... invite media, spread the buzz

with enough range they can be launched discretely from the woods.. need to have a video-link or uav capability to fly them.. a few hundred bucks, still cheaper than rig+wingsuit, and no legal probs if the toy is "caught"

I'm in depending on when we do this.
I need one of those sweet mug shot photos to hang on my wall!

Amen!

And to correct avenfoto, at both Potato and Moab, the BLM managers routinely compliment the jumpers as being among the more responsible and controlled recreationists out there. Just because people continue to die doesn't mean we suck; it means we be doing something dangerous enough to die doing if we make too many mistakes. And making mistakes doesn't mean we suck; it means we are human.

I refer avenfoto again to an unarguable statistic; generally speaking, more peeps die in Yosemite every year by falling into raging water because they were stupid, careless and/or reckless than die doing all the "dangerous" stuff combined.

That's why the BASE prohibition and associated discrimination is by definition psychotic: it is out of touch with reality.


44

see how much fun this is?

the possibilities are endless.

Not sure I would go the robot/drone route though. They can crash in the wrong place and mechanical intrusions like that are sorta at odds with a fundamental part of our argument -- that we do in fact blend in with other wilderness users and user non-powered, "wilderness-correct" means by which to enjoy our backcountry recreation.

But keep thinking... even not-so-spot-on ideas get peeps thinking about other ones and the first thing you know there's a plan and we'll start seeing an uptick in the amount of Pepto-Bismol sold in stores in and about Yosemite.


44

Okay, anyone, when would be a good time to go for this. Seems to me that Independence Day weekend might be good for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is, well, the day Americans celebrate our independence and freedom for the tOOls of the British Crown.

America's forefathers dealt with redcoats. Ours our the same tOOls, just wearing different color coats.


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i like where this is going!!!

A lot of you know my story and I’m willing to share it with reporters/media at this event. I was arrested twice for wingsuit BASE jumping in Yosemite. The first time they TAZED me, took my gear, gave me 2 years probation and a $2,500. They offered to give me my gear back if I paid an extra $1,500, which I did.

The second time, I got another 2 years probation, a $5,000 fine and they took my gear and would not give it back; wingsuit, BASE rig, climbing harness, jumars, headlamp, stash bag, etc… everything I used to get to the exit except my clothing.

I also got 45 days in PRISON, not jail. They flew me all over the US just to screw with me, I was in prison with heroin addicts, bank robbers, rapists, murderers, etc. It was a VERY rough crowd and nobody really believed that I was in there for a Class C Misdemeanor. Let’s just say I had to act pretty crazy to “fit in” and not get messed with. I did have to show a few thugs that I wasn’t a pussy and wasn’t going to let anyone disrespect me, push me around or have “their way with me”.

I’m still blown away that they would put me in with a general population like that with the “crime” that I committed. It felt very wrong and could see some of my other BASE friends living a true nightmare in that place.

I also think the 50,000 volts of electricity they zapped me with gave me permanent memory loss. Not to mention the pain and headaches weeks after the incident.

Anyway, this has been great reading and even though I’m not willing to jump in the park anymore (yep, they broke me… I can’t even go there now without them following me everywhere), I’m willing to help in other areas; show up with my rig, tell the media my story, hang a gigantic banner on El Cap, guide jumpers to the top and show them how to ascend the ropes, etc.

Cheers Ammon

Sorry, Ammon, I hadn't previously heard your story. Not surprised because nothing the TOOl hates worse than peeps who disobey 'em more than once.

But here's the thing: they WILL follow you all over the park, so you could lead them on a merry chase, eh? Especially if you have a rig in your car... and you'd have a bunch of reporters in tow too because, again, with the sequester being such big news, we're hearing a lot about how much Joe Bite Me's hotel and limo bill is and that sort of thing, so while the reporters were cooling their heels waiting for action, they could get an earful from you about how many flights to which destinations were made by them to mess with you. Can you imagine the Jet A costs alone for NPS to make an example out of you?

Was it all commercial or was some of it DOJ or Interior Dept jets? And the intake/outtake processing... all of it... you're probably the $2 million dollar misdemeanor -- which is in fact a riff on the "$1 million misdemeanor" headline in a Utah paper way back when after a fed judge dismissed an aerial delivery complaint against some of the Lake Powell however-many-there-were.

Long babble short: Part of Operation Thoreau's Clog could be getting as many peeps out there such as yourself who have been really raked over the coals for a crime listed in the federal code of regulations next to feeding the squirrels -- literally the same level of offense.

Or running a stop sign. Can you imagine losing your car and everything in it except your clothes for a traffic infraction? That is literally what we are talking about here.

If Operation Thoreau's Clog had even five "stars" like you, we could have a lot of fun... and 10 or 15 would be even better. And here's another thing: Covering a July 4 event in Yosemite is notbad duty for a reporter... paid trip to America's crown jewel national park, to hang out and watch some people skydive off the cliffs and some rangers chase them around... that is in fact a key component... whatever we do, make it easy and fun and enjoyable for the reporters.

And hey, no shame in acknowledging that the tOOls broke you of jumping in your own park; they are, after all, federal law enforcement officers with a direct line to the federal prosecutors and courts and prisons, so when the klieg lights aren't pointed their way, well, it can get to be quite an adventure.

Not likely that they'd do that to first-timers -- or to anyone for Operation Thoreau's Clog because the klieg lights would be one, but you never know with tOOls.

Thanks again for your story, and the first two beers are on me if we ever3 meet, and let's see if some other folks chime in too. Could be a pretty fun way to spend Independence Day.


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Wow Ammon. I knew you had trouble, but did not know it was that screwed up. An old buddy R Payne, years ago, was caught and they let him out on bond, but didn't check their records well enough to know they already had a warrant out for a past jump. When they caught him again, he did 90 days in a prison in Bakersfield. These guys are out of control and the "controlled confusion" you and Robin et al are discussing sounds hilarious. Of course, remember Kent State, not sure that if they really got frustrated, like Barney Fife, they may just take that bullet out of their shirt and put it in the gun. We know how much some of our law enforcement folks in the good old "land of the free" love to use their toys.

I never heard part 2 of that story. Jesus Christ. Did you have a lawyer??

I want to help with this project if it happens. If I can't make it, I will find some other way to help (maybe donate $$ or help get together cheap rigs).

I'm all in favor of civil disobedience, but I don't think it's what will open Yosemite. I had put up a nice idea about how to help antagonize the LEOs, but the more I thought about it I felt it wouldn't get us anywhere, so I edited it.

Society has changed since Thoreau. We're now in constant fear of "criminals" and "terrorists." I agree that it's ridiculous what they did to Ammon, but common people don't bat an eye at 20 years in prison anymore for small crimes- we have 5% of the worlds population but 25% of the prisoners. Breaking laws isn't going to win any policy changes, even if we do it nicely.

What we need is MONEY. We're in a capitalistic society, everyone knows policy is made by money. What about getting GoPro, Redbull, GoFast, Suzuki (they used base jumping in a commercial), whatever big companies to get behind a single day of jumping, something like bridge day? Despite the deaths, it seems to me that public opinion of base jumping has never been higher... I see TV commercials with jumping all the time, jumping is in lots of movies, people love it. The legal mechanism is in place to open the park, the administrators can give out a waiver if they want.

I would argue the second step is PRESS. For the big companies, exposure means free advertising. Organize the event well with lots of promotions. Play by the rules, screen jumpers ahead of time so that it's legit, do waivers, etc, so there's no reason to take it away. We put on a good face, too. There's a few lawyers, doctors, and business professionals running around here, put their face on the screen, talking about how much money they want to spend at Yosemite, how the US is losing out to Europe. No offense to Ammon, but not put him as the media star... the public views him as a criminal now, and in our society, criminals have no rights or valid opinions.

TLDR; if we put on our best sunday suit, could we get GoPro and Redbull to sponsor a single day of jumping?

I really hate to admit this, but in my opinion you are right. I worked my whole life for the US Govt. and I have seen how viciously they can react when directly challenged. True, they have budget issues with Congressional appropriations. However, even without Cong. approval, if they choose to divert resources, like rangers from other areas, it is within their administrative authority and I believe they would do just that. It is a sad state of affairs that nowadays money talks and bullshit walks. A well financed demo for a movie or TV special or whatever seems to have more persuasive effect now than open protest. I don't know the answer. I'll give Robin credit for his excitement since I've known him for over 30 years. While I accuse him of being to the right of Atila the Hun, he calls me a flaming liberal, but in fact, we both respect each other and I can't help but like the guy. If we talked in earnest, I think he would also agree that while a mass protest jump week would cause the NPS pain, it would likely only strengthen their resolve to get us and keep us out of Yosemite. Maybe I'm wrong, I wish I were, but I've seen how the Govt. reacts from the inside and the term should be "over react" as Ammon's case clearly demonstrates.

This is insane. Something must be done...Maybe a jumper with a parent thats a high level politician goes though what Ammon went through...then what...

My friend, I agree this is insane. When the first bounce happened in Yosemite, Jim Tyler, an undercover IRS agent who took two fairly inexperienced guys off of Half Dome and exited at the wrong place, he did a 4 second delay and hit the wall on opening. That night at about 1:30AM, Carl Boenish called me since I was the only lawyer BASE jumping at the time, 1983 or so, and told me the two young guys were at the Anawanee hotel at a pay phone and wanted to talk to me before they were arrested for some advice. Well, by the time Carl finished telling me the story and Jean yelled at him to let me off the phone so I could call them, and I did, they were already busted. Bottom line, a few days later one of them called me and told me his dad was a big time rich lawyer who would take the NPS to task. Well, like everyone else, he later plead guilty, got fined and life at Yosemite went on as usual with no relief for the jumpers. I know it is frustrating for you new guys to try to understand the adverse mentality that has developed over the last 30 years at Yosemite, but it still lives. The few high profile fatalities haven't helped. I have always hoped that with all the good publicity BASE has gotten the last 10 years especially, with the wingsuit league and the sanctioned Red Bull events that attitudes would have to change. From what I know, they haven't. As a federal trial attorney for the US Attorney in Miami between 1987 and 92, I even helped lead the US Govt. prosecution of a huge environmental lawsuit against the State of Fl to force Florida to use their State laws to stop the sugar cane and other farmers from polluting the Everglades. At that time, the superintendent of Everglades National Park was Mike Findley, a super cool guy who I became friends with. In 91 or so, he was transferred to become the superintendent of guess where, Yosemite NP. Before he left, the State of Fl and the sugar cane lawyers had not yet taken his deposition we talked about Yosemite. He knew I and my bro were BASE jumpers and the first two to do Half Dome at night back in 82. I kidded him by saying, "when we come to Yosemite to cover your deposition, ( Everglades case), would he mind if I brought my parachute. He laughed and said, "I will make sure you get released on your own recognizance, but I can't interfere with the prosecution". Well, that my friend is an example of how entrenched the divide is between the NPS and BASE jumping in Yosemite. They may use safety as one of the excuses, but as has been pointed out, it's BS considering all the other fatalities they have from tourists and inexperienced climbers. It's much deeper and older than that. I only repeat this story so many of you newer BASE jumpers know what you are in for in trying to get this legal or permitted. Today, things are different in the world of BASE. Gear and techniques are light years ahead of then. Like I said, money seems to talk much louder than logic. We need a wealthy sponsor like Red Bull to get a demo permitted and public opinion on our side. It is no use to try to make sense of the animosity, I can't. I was in Norway as Thor Alex's guest when he bounced at Kjerag. Next day, the NY Post interviewed my bro and I. I said it was a shame that we had to leave the "land of the free" to go to Norway to spend our money to jump tall cliffs since we could not jump Yosemite.
Point is, please don't think this bridge hasn't been crossed many times and the resistance is not realistic. Until then my friends, do it like BASE jumpers of old, stealth, don't screw up the environment, be smart and don't get caught. Sorry I have no better advice, but I'm sort of tired of the fight and maybe it's just that way for awhile until our sport gets even more main stream. I really support the world wingsuit league and Red Bull since they are doing jumps right with people who don't screw up very often and they get a lot of good media coverage. Public acceptance and maybe money endorsements may turn things around, but it's up to the new generation of jumpers to do this right if we ever want to get the big walls in the US legal. If the NPS were smart, they would do like BLM and stay out of the regulation of recreational use they can't hope to understand enough to do meaningful regulation. It worked at Bridge Day simply because it brought a lot of money to an impoverished State and WV had strong political support in congress to fend off the NPS wanting to stop the jumping. Good luck my friend.
Rick H.

You wrote: "If we talked in earnest, I think he would also agree that while a mass protest jump week would cause the NPS pain, it would likely only strengthen their resolve to get us and keep us out of Yosemite."

In my estimation, its resolve is pretty much as strong as it can ever be. Right now the NPS holds the position on BASE jumping of "No! Never! No effing way! Absolutely not!"

As it has since 1978. So nothing we do can possibly "further strengthen their resolve to keep us out of Yosemite" or any other areas it occupies because its Resolve Meter is already pegged. Period. Full stop.

But what we do might change it for the better. It is indeed hard to wear down the US govt, but it can be done.


44

Hmmm.... think how much fun it would be to have you on board as counsel of record for Project Thoreau Clog!

You could bring your gear, then leave it in the trunk and just talk about all the history and insanity of the NPS position and your track record as a federal attorney who was instrumental in some critical environmental law issues dear to the hearts of tree huggers everywhere would make it hard for them to support the NPS discrimination, as they have done in the past. Plus you're so far in the tank for Obama that it would be hard for them to talk too much smack about a fellow flaming lib.

And then, when some of the peeps did inevitably get nabbed, you'd be there onsite to work your legal magic on that score too, both with your own velvet tongue and as a manager of lower time legal eagles who might end up involved.

I know you're getting old and curmudgeonly, but you could have a lot of fun and your presence would add another data point to the NPS consternation index as we move forward with this.

Whaddaya say, old fellow? Got anything better to do over the 4th than go to Yosemite?

And you others out there: If you like the notion of getting a super-experienced, highly respected, big-time retired federal government attorney involved in this -- on our side! -- then send the old gentleman some PMs and encourage him to ditch the curmudgeonly downer talk and remember that Carl Boenish said we should bury them with joy!


44

i'm totally game for this. count me in if anything ever goes down. i can't guarantee that i won't suddenly lose my mind and kill all of the rangers though. oops.

damn Ammon... i really hate that for ya'. absolute bullshit.

 
Dantana is right about a lot of his points… and I definitely don’t want to be the “media star”. I was thinking more of a list of people who have been prosecuted unfairly. The “crime” does NOT fit the punishment.

After second thought, I wouldn’t want to guide any jumpers to an exit, ether. They could bust me as an accessory and I’m done doing the tango with them. But, I’ll help any way I can to raise public awareness of how we are dealt with and legalizing BASE in OUR National Parks.

Something I did leave out in my account is that once I finally landed in Fresno, my lawyer filed a habeas corpus because they unlawfully held me in custody for 14 days. They dumped me on the street after taking EVERYTHING from me, phone, cloths, shoes, wallet (ID)… everything.

Luckily, I had a few numbers memorized and my bank let me withdraw money without my ID. Hell, I could probably write a book about what I went through.

[edit] Just to clarify: Above when I said they took everything but my clothes I was talking about the local rangers in Yosemite. Once I went through the Federal prison system they took everything from me, but let me mail my wallet, phone, keys home.

45 days in prison is absurd.
what would happen if you got busted a 3rd time?

i recently watched a michael moore documentary where he challenged those imbociles from westboro baptist church. they got hold of a full size RV, and painted it all kinds of rainbow and shades of pink, and put the rainbow flag all over it. a bunch of openly gay people were onboard, and they would pull up to the protests and interview the leaders/minions of WBC.

would it be a half decent idea to have any of the jumpers who have RV's to follow in the same idea, but have parachuting and sports company logos all over the RV('s), and fill it with BASE jumpers who are willing to talk to the media/rangers? what screams attention but overly decorated RV's cruising through the park and leading people around and talking to them?

just throwing out an idea
=)

Keep me informed. Would be fun if it comes off and I have a few frequent flyer miles to use. No promises though.

Update:

It's been quiet on this thread, but the PM scene is building steam. Some outrageously good secondary gambits and other creative "force multiplier" suggestions are coming in.

Stay tuned.


44

Cool. Do keep me informed. Sounds kinda fun to see the evolution repeat itself in a sort of different way. I'd love to get Joy to come along, but it would be like moving El Cap back a few miles in the valley across from Half Dome. I'll still try if it happens.
Take Care
Rick

 


Hey guys, not being a jumper myself I feel like I'm sticking my nose in things i shouldn't. But anyways:

I found out about Jan's death on El Capitan's Wikipedia page. It said that she died because she wanted to demonstrate the safety of the sport. I though, huh, how silly and ironical. Now reading these forums I found out the truth.

Since everybody is reading the wiki, this gives a lot of bad rep to your sport. I corrected the wiki and changed the Jan's death part and copied Robinheinds quote to the wiki.

Just wanted you guys to know about wiki not being fair and posting wrong data

https://en.wikipedia.org/...Capitan#BASE_jumping

Check the BASE jumping section where you can find Robin's quote.

Cheers,

Tiny

Excuse me... We jumped it in the 60's - the El Capitan was christened on July 24,1966 to be exact.

Don't be too hard on him, Mike... he probably wasn't even born yet.

Thanks dude

Ah, it's nutting. Fart in the wind.

LOL
Fake news.

If you knew anything about modern day Yosemite jumping...... The jokes on you.

There is no modern day Yosemite BASE jumping. It's illegal now. I don't think I've ever met a BASE jumper who would be willing to jump illegally.

I've seen some cool CGI videos where people doing legal jumps in Switzerland got superimposed so it looked like they were jumping in other places, but that's just computer graphics.

Exactly

Exactly? Yes, I'm sure Dean and Graham and their loved ones are laughing all the way to the cemetery at your "jokes".

Yeah maybe we should just lock this thread now, out of respect for the deceased

WOW! This thread just got cray!

There's no way after what happened in Chamonix, that will haunt our sport forever. I'm actually surprised it's still allowed in Lauterbrunnen. That one incident sets precedent for anyone who wants to ban the sport .

My guess is it would immediately become illegal again...way too many cool kids out there.

Do you think George Washington gave a fuuuuck about the French Revolution? ... No Sir, He Did Not.

- In my estimation, its resolve is pretty much as strong as it can ever be.

- its Resolve Meter is already pegged. Period. Full stop.

... sad and freaky timing.

"...the fact that there are no injuries on the ground is a miracle in itself."
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The point being... I'm still making a point.
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If you don't mind me asking, have you submitted a proposal or called the new sup in Yosemite?

+1

Not at all.

Until learning of Mitch's efforts, I had no intention of submitting a proposal.

I would however love to read Jean's (EIS) Environmental Impact Statement / Environmental Assessment as Rick spoke of above, and specifically, his stated input; would be a nice break from opinions. (And it would also be nice to get my hands on Robin's (BPP) Backcountry Parachuting Plan; neither of us have it.)


Hey, Now! Don't be Stealin' my Question, and then asking me, my own question...




No, I have not.

He hasn't even been in for six months yet... figure give the man some time to settle in first.

Or are you implying his job is gibberish, and "He doesn't need anymore Damn Time!"

Seriously though (I'm still insanely busy), and so as to not say too much, here: I've said similar and written a bit more to Mitch in PM on this aspect of the timeline; and within taking into account his own plans before we began conversing. Reynolds should and will be contacted, eventually; I fully intend to investigate his exemption status. Whether that be by me, both of us, or if Mitch would like to work his phone magic (as he has told me about a little to date - whenever beneficial to both of us) and I can aide in preparation, given "my part"... we'll see.

I'll tell ya this... I'm not going to do anything to hinder Mitch's efforts. But the NPS will eventually run out of time; and I'm not working on my schedule.
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Done


GRIN


Thank You for your assistance, Rick. -- (And Robin... who won't see this, because, he's banned. lol)
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I like your jokes......

I say leave it the way it is.
(just my two cents)

Ya Like That...?


So Then, Who's Friggin' Schedule...?!


Morpheus? . Jesus? . Neo? . Musky Boy's Simulation? Or Maybe, Trinity!? Mmmm ... Trinity.



BTW, That's MY Opinion: not gibberish, but that, "They don't need any more Damn Time!!"


IDK the Docket, oh, but it's on there.


Just, visibly not up to me.
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How incredibly selfish of you...

(just my two cents)

BASE is the most selfish thing you can do ... whats your point?
Do you have any idea of how much shit gets jumped in there?

Legalizing Yosemite would only result in more death and destruction.
You know... WHAT BASE JUMPERS ARE GOOD AT.

I don't see Jimmy H having any problem jumping in there, Do you? How incredibly selfish of him...
https://vimeo.com/310037855/6a3cd488ef

(my 3 cents... There.. I one upped ya) feel better?

That's utter horseshit.


I don't have any friends... so, no, I have no clue as to what goes on.


No one has a problem, until they have a problem...

Jimmy making a "bandit" jump, is not selfish. Not caring that people like my father are being prevented from jumping in any National Park, while you don't care about 2.17 and desire it to persist... is beyond selfish.


You didn't one up jack shit... you just sound like a jackass.

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2995762#2995762
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We're BASE jumping right?
check your pm coco mo

Are you fuckin' drunk?

I'm serious... are you intoxicated?

Um ... Um ... Mr. Jimmy Halliday ... Will you be my friend?!

Can we take selfies together!?!? Please ... Pretty Please?!








Thanx for the laugh...
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well so much for pm's...

Thanks for the laugh...
Likewise.

Your complaint about your dad not being able to jump in the park seems pretty selfish to me.
Whaaa whhaa wwhhhaa... my daddy cant jump in a NP.
(Nobody gives a fuck about your dad, especially BASE.)
Please stay on your island and keep wasting your time fighting the fuzz.. and I'll keep jumping and being selfish.
Later cuckoo

So much for PMs?

Would you like me to post the remaining 99% of your dumbass drunkin' PM? You must be drunk if you think my friends comment was anything but mocking you. You sound like a whuffo who has never read this forum.

Have fun on your next jump... I hope you get tased, right in the nuts.
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I hope I don't get flamed too much but if so its ok:) In my view at this point in time, efforts to get yosemite legal are wasted effort. I have not done it yet but I think its not that hard to jump there and getaway if you are careful. When opinions gradually change we will have more success in getting it legal but I don't think that time is now. Flame away!!:)

I've already made my opinion on that opinion, very straightforward.


The problem, Jim, is that's a continuously circular discussion, and of that a circle jerk that is not going to end: read BASE428's comments in my NPS thread. Now add 13 more years to that ... which is My Point within highlighting Robin's statements here (not, asking people's opinions on what would happen).

And I'm running very low on patience...

David
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I've gathered up about .10 cents here in the last few days ... Please send to Dr. Cuckoo and igobig.com for details on a protest jump.

Reading is Fundamental.

Whats on the docket?

What are you talking about? Are you drunk?

PM=private message!

Do you think the free men and women that founded these united States of America gave a fuck about a corporate entity called the UNITED STATES or various other corporations making rules to control it's Citizens/chattel/property?

Understanding our rightful place in the hierarchy is the first step in reclaiming any rights we may have freely given up. Why are you asking for something to be 'legal' to do when it's already 'lawful' to do it?



.

Ugh. Jesus Christ. -- You're one of those people?

I've now lost nearly all interest in whatever your "project" was/is.


No, Brother, the first step is actually understanding the Constitution (and the Declaration); along with what came right before it. Which I've quite adequately demonstrated that the multitude of Dorkzone Constitutional Scholars have no clue about American History, or those men and women (how dare you assume there were only two genders of Revolutionaries).

I don't know what you've been reading... but, even within the limited details of current actions since speaking with certain individuals, nothing I've been planning "asks for permission."
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Well you've got at least one good guess, at the moment, wouldn't ya say?


Hell No!

Juuuust a Crazy Person... havin' a little fun, while I keep on truckin' ... and keep on preparing; if necessary.


That'd be an interesting History Review: a little stroll down BJ memory lane; markedly given the content here.

Naw ... "It's a grey area, but, I don't think that 1% is covered by attorney-client privilege." lol
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I still don't understand what the hell you are talking about.

Don't worry. No one else does either.

Well ... Robin understands. And Jean understands too.

Really all that matters for the time being; as far as public posts go.

Maybe you should send me one of those personal messages for more info?



Here, I'll spell it out:

If ... Mitch does not secure any permits.

Then ... Crazy Coco takes the NPS to Federal Court.

Yeah, well, we've already established that for you, Tom...


http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2996094#2996094
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CAPISCE?!



http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2997720#2997720

I love it! "One of those people?" Haha! You are funny! Who are 'those' people you are speaking of? Do you mean the ones who claim to know all about the "Constitution" and all about their freedoms, yada, yada, yada but in actuality knows very little except for what they've been told. You are actually sounding a little like one of those people but I'm sure you know your rights and who can impose their laws against you.

So let me ask you which constitution you are talking about when you talk about all this knowledge you have?
Is it The Constitution of the United States of America, the United States Constitution, the Constitution for the united States of America, the US Constitution, the Constitution of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA or just the Constitution? Are they all the same? Do any of these documents give you rights? Are you even a party to any of those contracts?

I've been reading law books, statutes, codes and court cases. How about you?

Have you met my friend, Lysander Spooner?

Yes, and I talked about him here...
http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2994376#2994376

Your friend was a jackass... minus his abolitionism.

Read it the last time you posted it; reading about his failure of a law career was far more interesting.
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Yeah... pretty stupid thread.

You brought it up before I could.
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Yup! ... You're One Of Those People.


Gasp! Law Books and Statutes and Court Cases... Oh My!

http://www.basejumper.com/...nt;postatt_id=88600;

What ... No Podcasts?


For those who aren't already aware of this:

The United States Isn't a Country — It's a Corporation!

The Act of 1871: The "United States" Is a Corporation - There are Two Constitutions

Fact / Myth

There's more, far more, but it's not worth your time. -- And when you're done... Enjoy.


And No, 570, I'm not going to discuss this type of shit with you; I'm aware. I Don't Fucking Care. None of it is going to assist us with access... and if this is a major aspect of your "project", well, You Have Fun With That!

However, Please Do let me know when you're going to bring this into a Federal Courtroom...

...I want to be there to watch.


I prefer original sources... like the correspondences of the Men and Women you comically spoke to: like the statements by George Washington I posted in my thread; a letter I'm quite confident you've never read.


Sigh.

You, are definitely not going to get the parks open; through any litigation.


Why don't you hop over to the dorkzone and explain their "rights" to them...

https://www.dropzone.com/...&comment=4853869
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So basically you can't be bothered to put together a succinct argument because why?? You're a perfect example why the USA has been going downhill. People go to attacks instead of genuine discussion. I'm kinda surprised you didn't at least try because of your propensity to make long winded, incoherent ramblings on this site.

You'd rather spout off about how dumb everyone else is which is a sad cover up to try to make yourself look smarter than you actually are. It's a worn out tactic put into play by people that have a firmly held belief about something and are too scared and closed minded and their ego is too huge to allow themselves to challenge their understanding of a subject. You'd rather hastily grab the first websites you googled on the subjects and present them as evidence of your deep knowledge and understanding of a topic. Then you post a some weird video with two media clowns spouting more incoherent ramblings and you believe this is an argument to bolster your case?

When have I ever talked about going to federal court? When have I talked about starting litigation? Why would I beg a court for remedy when I know there is no remedy in a court that is not meant for Americans?

-Sigh.

You, are definitely not going to get the parks open with Joe Rogan as your political, social, spiritual and moral compass.

http://www.latimes.com/...-20190225-story.html

Another one bites the dust

FIFY

I try not to spend time on people who lack integrity... or, on nonsense.

But Nice Edit. Super Funny. This hole you willfully began digging, is getting quite deep.
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Why did you even post this?

If you had just written that last sentence, I would've addressed you accordingly.

Could've even gotten away with the full second paragraph... that could be interpreted different ways; if you weren't the eddie bravo of the BASEzone. Instead, you started off with nonsense.
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You should start a podcast called 'Coco's Echo Chamber'. Your first guest could be Robin Heid. You'd easily be able to chew through 3 hours, much like your favourite podcast, the JRE, seeing as you don't stop referencing it.

LOL, so true!

I totally agree with BASE570. As usual, he's spot-on.

Coco, give it a rest man...

Shouldn't my first guest be, Jeb?

That would've made your post a heck of a lot funnier, but, guess you've got a short memory.

Could've at least said NickDG, jeez; I've never even met Robin. Hell, I'm so obsessed with Nick, I'm even posting all his stuff from Facebook here. -- Get your shit together ... I expect much better "from a cunt like you!" -- (Hey Now! It's "not profanity", just speaking your language, Bucko.)



Accessibility doesn't equate to favorability.

Far more than "half the time", I'm cursing him: "Oh, Fuck Off, Joe ... You Are So Full Of Shit!" (since certain persuasions of his constantly do change depending on who he's hosting). I chiefly watch for the guest(s), yet haven't even had time to watch Mr. Musky's. I like Joe for MMA, and he is indeed a solid interviewer. But if it were just Joe and Eddie all the time, I probably wouldn't be watching/listening much.

Definitely couldn't say that for Adam Carolla. (Short Memory) -- Now, for Mark Geragos, on Reasonable Doubt, it can surely be said. He may be an outstanding and high priced criminal/trial [celebrity] attorney, but he's clearly no constitutional expert; that's for damn sure! But that's fine, I've still learned quite a bit from him. Or more so, he says one to two things, and it turns into that and 50 others that get researched.

Favorite Podcast? -- Well Hello There ... Have you washed your hands lately?

Actually, it's a Tie: I do miss Love Line, but the Adam and Dr. Drew show is sufficient.

But, Yeah ... I'll ah ... I'll be leaving the podcasting to Stumpf. No Thank You.
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Hey! Thanks for posting!! -- I was gonna bump your thread as well, but it's not quite old enough.

And as usual, I agree with Mitch.









Nah ... I'm Good.
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More mindless horseshit.

W&E

years ago there was a guy posting rubbish all the time, not unlike yourself. Someone made a add on that you could download to block all his posts. Is anyone able to do that again?

Don't be a Dbag, and "you" won't be treated like one; it's quite simple.

Adam Carolla for the win: Selfish -- It's not just with BASE, it's our culture.



Instead of a buncha bitching, why don't ya add something to the conversation?

I believe that was Platypii (same guy who wrote the BASEline flight computer app).

edit to add: The one who wrote the extension, not the poster who was throwing up tons of fluff.

Thanks

Lazy!

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2977779#2977779

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2981808#2981808

https://chrome.google.com/...mdndlcdgflbmadiomico

this will put an 'X' next so someones username.
if you click the X, you wont see their posts

:)

Bump

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Ya know what, Slambo...



I think I Will address it.

Address It ... Not discuss it.

Oh, why the change? Well, Because...

This is the kinda thing that just tickles my balls!



P.S.

Much, Much Bigger ... GRIN

I don?t get it.

Ah, 570... You, Are, A Hoot!

I, Wasn't, Even, Thinkin' about this stupid crap... and Boom! There it was, the reason you posted:


Hot Damn you are thin skinned!

Oh, that pissed you the hell off, didn't it?

I clearly pushed, All, of those corporate buttons with that one!

Hot Diggity Dog, That, is definitely the kinda thing that just tickles my balls!



Okay, Okay, Too Sarcastic For Ya?

Well, I was actually told I should screw with you...

Somewhat after I posted, I did actually decide for kicks and giggles to see what a like minded friend thought of it; or, more likely, if he had even heard of it. Actually got pretty frustrating: not that he was busy and it took a while. But that he wanted to ask his brother about it before he responded. Then he wanted to do a group chat with the three of us to discuss. Time went by, but finally, out of the blue, not only was there now a group chat, but two of the three additionally involved parties were [like minded] attorneys.

How did it go...?

(1) I want my time back... (2) You should screw with him. Act like you agree with him, and then belittle him.

But (3) As I told that attorney, there are way too many ass hats on here for me to do that; not a chance.

But see (4) You've already posted more than enough [ACTUAL] nonsense on the topic... so why bother?

Let's take a look, shall we?

Come along everyone!
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(1) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2935810#2935810

Notes: (A) Not Responding to Me. (B) My sole post, is directed to my friend... on here, and in real life.
(C) Economics discussion, primarily. (D) Not being challenged mid-discussion; totally offered up willfully.

base570 wrote:

The only reason America MAY be screwed is because the people have allowed it.

Many say it's the government that is bringing down America but I disagree. How can a government/corporation, which is a fictitious entity even with all of it's policies and practices, control an actual living breathing man... how can the creation control the creator??? Only by consent.

We have allowed ourselves to become the property of the government so they can pretty much do whatever they want to the country and us. We lose all of our substantive rights when we agree that we are Citizens of the corporate United States.

The government is a corporation and corporations have only one purpose... to make a profit.

They supply their citizens/property with lots of great distractions/benefits to mold their minds into lazy unthinking drones who rely on the government for most everything and blame everything and everyone for their problems. They create fighting amongst ourselves to keep us occupied and unaware of what is really happening. "It's those damn Democrats that are ruining the country... non, no, no it's the republicans who are the bad ones!! WAR is the answer... the economy, healthcare, social security, TERROR, blah, blah, blah" They do so many things to confuse it's citizens and keep them distracted, all the while formulating new codes and laws to tax/control it's citizens/property and keep them producing revenue. We agreed to be controlled and most don't want to even learn the rules of the game by which we are controlled by. What happens when we break one of their corporate rules/laws? We go to their court and hire an attorney whos first loyalty is not to us, their clients, but to the BAR, their society... the law society. Hell we are not even their 2nd or 3rd loyalty, I think that goes to the state and the courts. How can we come out ahead with help like that? All we can hope for is a smaller fine... which sometimes is ok it's just more revenue for the corporation and they know it's only a matter of time that we will be back again for breaking another of their "laws". More oil for the machine.

We the people can still take back america by realizing just WHO THE HELL WE ARE!

We are not a fictitious entity and cannot be controlled by one. We are the energy that runs this whole game, so we need to start acting like it!! If we are going to play in their game we need to learn the rules and start turning things around!

WE ARE THE CREATOR NOT THE CREATION!!!

(well that's what I heard anyway... you can go back to your discussion about the economy now )
Oh, I do have a question you smarties may be able to answer... According to Blacks Law dictionary a "Note" is a written promise by one party to pay money to another party or to bearer.
If a note is a promise to pay money at a later date, what the hell is a Federal Reserve Note? I guess it's not money, huh?

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(1B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2935836#2935836

Notes: (A) My First (Material) Post; and first to address base570.

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(2) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2935864#2935864

Notes: (A) As wwarped said in post 59, and I will reiterate: your quoting is so horrendous, I struggle/fail to fix/preserve it, here. (B) Quoting in pieces.

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(2B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936010#2936010

Notes: (A) Education, Yes, & Irony! (B) My second statement there, is quite funny. We'll come back to that.
(C) If discussion on any of my non-related statements is desired, feel free to do so, in That Hangout thread.

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(2C) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936054#2936054

Notes: (A) Still Do!

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(3) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936069#2936069

Notes: (A) Lil' Condescending? (B) Fast forward, 2019; Lil' Arrogant? (C) Sounds EXACTLY Like Eddie Bravo.

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(3B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936072#2936072

Notes: (A) Hahaha!! (B) "huge piece of the puzzle" ... Um, No.




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(3C) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936073#2936073

Notes: (A) "You just haven't done enough research, Man!" - Eddie Bravo.

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(4) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936121#2936121

Notes: (A) Ridiculous (B) The Matrix (C) Horrendous; bleeds into everything after... posting in pieces, again.

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(4B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936123#2936123

Notes: (A) I'd still give you credit for this; Natural Rights.

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(4C) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936148#2936148

Notes: (A) Replying to (4).

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(5) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936173#2936173

Notes: (A) Material: "Logical" ... "Your Truth" (B) Material: BAR Association


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(6) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936174#2936174

Notes: (A) No, the (1871 Related) substance is not there.

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(7) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2936176#2936176

Notes: (A) Clear As Crystal... "there are 2 constitutions" (B) Absolute Nonsense. (C) Not Funny.

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(7B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2937555#2937555

Notes: (A) Repeal, has already occurred.

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(8) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2937618#2937618

Notes: (A) More, & 13th. (B) "some you may not be ready for" ... Ooookay! (C) Proof, that you may well know about Natural Law, via Black's, but you don't understand it; as the Founders and Framers did.

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(8B) http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2937794#2937794

Notes: (A) Everything (material) you posted, is summed up with this quote:


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(End)

Notes:

(A) That is the entirety of posts, material, to "the Corporations Man!" content.

(B) No further base570 posts after (8).

(C) base570 has not since elaborated.

(D) Thin skinned reactionary arrogance, while seemingly not remembering these posts, is not elaboration.
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(End -- Final Thread post; Frederick Douglass)

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2944486#2944486

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So ... base570,

Now that the necessary "transcriptions" are completed.

And now that we've established why you posted as you did.

Let's address why this is all nonsense, among a few other things.


You had potentially been, "researching", for at least eight years at the time of this statement...

...and you still haven't debunked this delusional fabrication?


Dude ... Super Cereal.

That is Pathetic.

& Arrogant.


I also provided that statement to the previously stated attorney, with a response of, "I also am not a fan of people stating because they read cases they know the law" ... and his personal example, is, So You.
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So Arrogant...


The irony of your first statement, is that I did, while also showing:

(1) There was no substance in your previous posts, or here. (2) You clearly do not know your shit; within the subject matter. (3) Not only can't you be bothered to review what is put in front of you, but you can't even be bothered to review your own posts; as evident from my screen capture of your pre-edit grammar fixes and late added personal attack. (3B) Further strengthening wwarps statements about your lack of precision, which these posts also lack. (4) Your attention to detail is equally horrendous, while making this ridiculous statement; being not cryptic, but vague with no direction, though soon after leading to... the Act of 1871:


NO. It's Definitely Not.


I DID ... but you're lazy and arrogant.


And I did so, prior, to looking back for your old posts: despite instantly recalling, "something" - (but not much content), while not having the ability at the time to look, or let alone to re-read all that crap.


After I Mocked your statement ... Oh My! ... I did exactly as I later did with my like minded friend:

Unable to find the original content (where I first became aware of this topic: Pre-January 2011), I "grabbed" the best I could find; with one small twist.

Since you clearly didn't review what I posted, take a look at the third provided link, you barely have to scroll down, to the 4th bolded title (also having a large break from the YT video), and it's right there.

A 2013 "article": http://internettheories.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html

Like the DOI, which was not hastily written, there was also something that came before the Act of 1871:


My First Provided Link, is on both pages:


Before and After:


If we were discussing the matter...

This Should Be The End Of The Discussion!




The Second Provided Link... has no twist, but was also purposed.

(A) The YouTube video on the Fact/Myth page, is the exact same video as I posted, but is older, and has different music.

(B) Proof of the massive extent of reproduction, years apart; while also being ~3 years before your initial 2011 posts.

(C) Moonlight Sonata is a much better musical choice.


(D) The website associated with the video, on its second link, has a picture of Ron Paul. Which is exactly how I first came to learn about this; something related to Ron Paul, sometime in early or mid-2009:

I thought it was Stupid CRAP, back then! Didn't care about it past what I had already read (clearly not much; for very good cause)... but today, my insults of this subject matter, would be far, far harsher.
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I shall begin my mockery of this topic, by starting with Yahoo! Answers:

Q: Do you believe the constitution applies to you?

A: Yes, I do, and I also believe that a ruling by a Confederate era Georgia State Court is not precedent for any consideration of the US Constitution.

The US Constitution gives the Federal gov't the sole authority to tax imports. The City of Savannah placed an import duty of 50c per $100 on 'negroes' imported through the port. Padleford Fay, who were slave traders, filed a lawsuit claiming that the City was banned from collecting the tax by the US Constitution.

The Georgia Supreme Court ruled in favor of the city on the grounds that neither the City of Savannah nor the plaintiffs were signatories to the US Constitution. However, in a piece of silliness remarkable even in the run-up to the civil war, they held that Savannah DID have a right to lay the tax because the Georgia Constitution authorized it - even though neither the City nor the plaintiffs were signatories to that EITHER.

Given such an internally contradictory and ridiculous ruling, it's no wonder that an otherwise minor case is still quoted by kooks a century and a half later. -- Richard



Next ... Which was quite easy to find. That is, if you actually, Want, to debunk stupidity.

Sovereign Citizen Myths:

The Padelford Case ? Sovcit Myths

I was checking out the latest news on David Darby, a sovcit who insists that WA state?s constitution is the one which was approved by the State several years before Congress adopted a later version. I read a reference to a case in Georgia, which was mistakenly represented as being a US Supreme Court decision, in which the court claims that no private person has a right to complain by suit in court on the ground of a breach of the US Constitution. Time to put an end to this myth,


The case was decided in the Supreme Court of Georgia, not the US Supreme Court, and the ruling, like the Dred Scott ruling never survived the Civil war.

The overruling was recognized in Raif v. State, 109 Ga. App. 354, 136 S.E.2d 169 (Ga.App. Feb 25, 1964) (NO. 40186, 40187)

The doctrine of co-equality and co-ordination between the Supreme Court of Georgia and the Supreme Court of the United States, so vigorously announced by Benning, J., in Padelford v. Savannah, 14 Ga. 439, regarded now from a practical standpoint, seems visionary. Its application to this, or any like case, would be a jarring discord in the harmony of law. Moreover, any attempt to apply it effectively would be no less vain than discordant. When we know with certainty that a question arising under the Constitution *361 of the United States has been definitely decided by the Supreme Court of that government, it is our duty to accept the decision, for the time being, as correct, whether it coincides with our opinion or not. Any failure of due subordination on our part would be a breach, rather than the administration, of law. It needs scarcely to be added that this court, when a question arises as to the construction of a portion of the Constitution of the United States, or a statute enacted in pursuance thereof, feels it to be its duty to follow, as binding precedents, the adjudications of the Supreme Court of the United States. State v. Atlantic & Gulf Railroad Co., 60 Ga. 268;Georgia Railroad v. Cubbedge, 75 Ga. 321; Murray v. Miller, 157 Ga. 11 (121 SE 113); Slicer v. State, 168 Ga. 566 (148 SE 385).? Accordingly, the law as exemplified in the Winston case, supra, and similar cases decided by this court and the Supreme Court of Georgia is no longer the law and we are bound to follow the interpretation of the Supreme Court of the United States in the Mapp case, supra, as to the admissibility of evidence obtained by an illegal search and seizure resulting from an illegal arrest. See Scott v. State, 14 Ga. App. 806, supra, and Pickett v. State, 99 Ga. 12, 15 (25 SE 608, 59 ASR 226).

Notes:

(A) Not a US Supreme Court Case.

(B) Overturned / "Overruled."

(C) Thoroughly Fucking Ridiculous.

(D) If you try to pull two sentences out of that last paragraph, and argue what I think you might try to argue, I'll initially differ to Colm, within the "Organic" thread of this Outrageous Nonsense:





(A) Makes Gnirke's post in my NPS thread about simulation theory funnier.

(B) Makes my Matrix post (#101) to Slambo, in this thread, Mocking simulation theory, much funnier.

(C) Makes base570's first post, here (with my subsequent question of, "Why did you even post this?"), Incredibly Funny... because of this, posted by Will Smith on the same day; February 13th, 2019:

Why I Turned Down The Matrix | STORYTIME




Whatever You Say, Bucko!


Literally ... Man Bear Pig.


Ah ... So, you consider yourself apart of "We The People", do ya?

[Leans in to Whisper] Do you even know the story behind that phrase?


Mmm... those damn international bankers, ey?! -- Do you also have evidence showing that the three stars on the flag are for Washington, London, and the Vatican?

If so, "perhaps", that's because you don't know it's based off of the Washington Family Coat of Arms... not some crazy ass Eddie Bravo style research.

But before looking back, and seeing your various NC and East Coast threads... I was not, quite, sure, how to interpret that last statement.

Not so much, now.

Granted. You didn't [directly] write anything on that topic, but you also did write crap that I can't seem to find anywhere else. So, it's reasonable to assume, it IS in the realm of what you are alluding to. -- Making it further safe to assume, that your "Project", is also within the realm of all this Blithering Nonsense.

Notes:

(A) Why the hell do you have Luxembourg for your flag? When others, like Avenfoto, using Zimbabwe, still lists his state... however, he and others are also not spewing Crap within poorly structured sentences.

(B) Didn't you "just say" something about how important grammar is?

(C) English isn't your second language.




Let's Wrap Up, Shall We?

Let me show, you, why Reading is Fundamental. And yes, why capitalization, grammar, punctuation, DICTION, and all that Bull Shit you spewed in post #37, is actually important:

Since most of the sites are word for word regurgitation (like a hefty chunk of what you posted), I'm going to "grab" the text from the most relevant and clear example. It also being, the "research page", just for you!

Sovereign Project -- "Black?s Law Dictionary 4th Edition: This is a very good Law Dictionary for Research."

Mmmm ... FOR Research. -- Giggity.

So we've got: dictionary, dictionary, dictionary.

Washington Constitution, and then some Wash BS, Wash BS.

Federalist Papers, Anti-Fed Papers, Fed Pap, Fed Pap, Fed Pap Chron.

But finally, with a whole buncha unrelated crap after it, we get to the Act of 1871:


Actually ... "Most people" aren't Morons ... and can read. And SEE, that right there, for anyone who has actually read the document, that the debunking of this is not only within their statement itself, but blatantly within the text of the Act. Something I can't see how, and highly doubt you've EVER even read. Where not only have I read it, but I read it more than once, on different sites, to ensure no variations.

And each site (including my "hastily grabbed" First Provided Link), and every video, all lists the same thing: "Acts of the Forty-First Congress," Section 34, Session III, chapters 61 and 62. -- Right HERE -- And there is not one word of the Bull Shit you have written on this forum, within the text of that Act.

See... the difference between the above wording, and my first link (serendipity) is this:


My FiRsT QuEsTiOn is... whose AsShOlE was this FiRsT pulled from?

So, let me walk you through this like you're a damn five year old:

Take a look at the document ... do you see a "title" anywhere?

No ... You Do NOT.

My link however, unlike this link... has the Preamble at the top, which is the one and only place where you will find the words "Constitution for", but see, there's a twist.

Not only can you not find this ("The Constitution for the united states of America") anywhere... the Preamble says "this Constitution for the United States of America.", which is conveniently edited out by your Sovereign Citizen Brothers in Ar... Stupidities.

Words matter, now don't they, 570??

Furthermore... if you're not lazy as fuck:

You can do a key word search on the Constitution, and find: In Article II, Section 1... "Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:?"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Well, Hot Diggity Dog, and isn't that special... "for" and "of" in the same document.

With absolutely none of the capitalization nonsense you've written about.

Uh Oh ... Does that mean the Constitution was also hastily written?

Or, Shall we just look at the Act of 1871 text now, too?








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So, base570:



But I shall also, and further, partially defer my ending, to Colm, responding to one of your posts:


P.S.


P.S.S.


Despite the potential (or likely) lacking of context: If you're not amused by hearing Alex Jones yelling insanely that God told him to wage war against Joe Rogan ... You, Have, No, Soul!

That doesn't bolster any case, it bolsters my mockery of you.

10 Seconds: "Not everything's a fucking conspiracy."

Only having posted, for the first 70 seconds.

Yet, it's further amusing that you brought up the 13th Amendment: given Neil deGrasse Tyson's statements about the number 13, within brits17's JRE BASE Number. Especially at the 13 minute mark.


P.S.S.S.


(1) Done.

(2) No ... It's Not. It's Pathetic...

(3) Don't dig the hole any deeper.
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P.S.S.S.S.


(SeCoNd QuEsTiOn: Did you notice, I pretty much then ignored everything you wrote? lol.)

It wouldn't matter to anyone else, but it does to me.

Why didn't I remember more of that exchange?

Ah, that's why. Because it was Jan 2011.

I did say we would be coming back to the issue of "my ego", did I not? -- Mmm ... See, I remember exactly what the hell I was doing at that time, and for many months to come; or more so, dealing with.

Now that, will be some intriguing... & "bolstering" ...topics of discussion to come back to.

Psst ... That's called, Cryptic.

L8er!
Crazy Coco
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TL;DR version:

My twin brother Randy and I were the first to jump Half Dome at night, at 0300 hrs in June 82. Dark and scary night. We were the 8th and 9th to jump Half Dome. It's a great jump and a little easier to get away with as it is back in the valley but it can be seen by the Glacier Point Ranger Station.

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TL;DR version:




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between this post, and 99% of your others. Thank you for letting us all know you're currently in the manic phase. You should try Risperdal Consta so that you don't have to take daily meds.

15 years from now, the NP will STILL be closed to jumping, you'll be too demented to know what a national park is.

Coco, you're f-ing weird. Glad you're the king of the keyboard though. At least 570 is cool and he jumps off things with style. Good day!

You Are Dreadfully Predictable.

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yosemite legal- what would happen?

I would jump off big cliffs in the summer sun and go for a swim in the river, then pack, eat and do it all over again.

How much moon did you have that night, Rick?

There was a decent moon but it came up late and behind the mountain so it never shown in the valley below. The day before we stepped it off from the base of the talus to the meadow about a mile or more straight out. Alternate landing area for HD is Mirror Lake area to the left but it's closer to rangers. It was dark enough you couldn't look down from the exit point and see the talus.

You mean to tell me you jumped in the dark? At night?
That's a crazy concept.

Why not wait until day light so everyone could see you? You could've been the first person to yell " Hey, check me out"!
Pretty sure tazers didn't exist back then.

Regardless, We are glad you didn't die on that pale moon night.

Glad I lived as well especially since my left brake line snapped on opening after a ten second track to clear the wall after my brother spun once and hit it before he could get away. Cynthia Guzman has an article she wrote about my story on that jump. She labeled it El Cap jump but it was the Half Dome story. We went to CA to do El Cap in June 82 and after doing Auburn Bridge, we called Carl Boenish to say hi and he told us that no one had ever jumped Half Dome at night so of course, we changed our plans. Moral of the story, while you may not want your best gear at Yosemite in case of arrest and it's confiscated, make sure you take a canopy newer than my old yellow and black, former Golden Knights stratostar # 106. It had been around since reefing lines and the old attachments were still on top. My brother bought it well used from Scotty Carbone for $100. after several thousand jumps. Once I saw my brother open that close to the wall with a spin due to a locked brake line and he hit it on his second spin until he got the canopy off the wall, I decided to do a solid 10 second track to get further and still have altitude to get to the landing area with the 5 cell canopy. It was a pretty scary night for being my first cliff jump.

Wasn't there a Wild Turkey in this story somewhere?

Seems like a little Wild Turkey bit the dust that night. Randy and I spent several hours up on top of the Dome and it was still cold up there with snow. We had a pint of Wild Turkey 100 proof but due to nerves and the hurried pace up the trail we had indigestion so didn't hardly drink any before exit. Randy put it behind his back pad before exit but when he spun through and hit the wall, it cracked the cap and by the time he landed it had all drained out. I came in a few hundred feet over him and heard him cussing as he was gathering his canopy and limping. I asked him what was wrong and he said after hitting the wall he needed a shot of whiskey to calm his nerves but it was all gone. Another victim of BASE jumping.

Good lord!
Scary is an understatement. F kin A.
No thanks.


These young whipper snappers these days. Some of these cupcakes need to grow a pair. This is BASE jumping for Christ sake.
......Great story.
You could have been "Hey, check me out! BASE#1"