Basejumper.com - archive

 

It's much easier to think you are technically proficient enough to do wingsuit base than to believe you should be throwing triples. :dunno:

There seem to be way more jumpers that start jumping just to wingsuit these days. Jumping a wingsuit out of a plane used to be considered sketchy, but is not mainstream. Many people have taken that approach and moved it towards base jumping, and forget all the complications involved, or dont take the time to learn how to really maneuver a suit before putting it right next to trees or rock.

Just rambling thoughts...

I have retired (for the time being), so I dont know if the community has changed since I dropped out of the loop, but when I started 11 years ago, the community was very tight, and you either knew personally a lot of jumpers, or at least knew someone that knows them. Pretty much the majority of the community seemed to be covered by knowing someone.

With this, when fatalities occured, you either knew the person, or had a friend that knew them. This made each fatality very very personal, and kept you fully grounded that you could well be next, and most of the time gave you a decent respect for the sport.

My rambling thoughts are thus: Has the sport now become large enough now that participants are not that close to fatalities? If this is the case, and with the added ease entering the sport has seemed to become (it certainly seemed to be more difficult to get on a FJC when I did mine than it does now), the increased participants who have not put the time and effort into entry and thus do not push for new wannabes to also put in the time and effort, mixed with the added influx of youtube videos and the amazing visuals of wingsuit flights, I can only see that the fatalilites will continue to increase sadly by previous mistakes and/or lack of preparation or appreciation of the risks involved.

140 people have died since I started 11 years ago, too many friends, and too many friends of friends.

Stay safe y'all..... peace and love.

+1

the "mainstream" mentality is still causing problems in the skydiving world too. They are having fatalities and collisions during "big-ways" of 15, 30 or even larger composed of people who should be doing nothing bigger than 2-4-ways...

Part of the problem is that YouTube makes it all seem so simple and easy -- and you basically never see the vids when it all goes wrong, so there is this illusion that it's no big deal.

JT Holmes is an awesome big mountain skier and when you watch his ski work, it all looks effortless too, but then check out some of the crashes that happen to folks like him when it goes wrong... unlike wingsuit terrain flying, there is a lot of carnage video of people flip-flopping a quarter mile down a mountain off rocks and over cornices -- so it's really clear to everybody just how bad it can be if it goes wrong and how hard it really is to do.

Wingsuiting doesn't have enough carnage vid to cement the difficulty and consequences of blowing it (Jeb's adventure notwithstanding). Sure, we all know intellectually what usually happens when something goes bad, but not having the carnage vid that also shows what happens leading up to the fall is another reason so many people push way beyond their skill and experience on wingsuits; they literally don't know what they don't know.

Tree is right, too; it really is safer trying triple twisty flippy-doos from 400 feet over rocks than doing terrain flying where everything seems just fine until it isn't and then you're dead.

Your last sentence is right on too. Yes, you can get 3:1 in a suit these days if everything goes right, but the second it doesn't, you're back to being a rock that falls instead of flies, and yet too many people -- including many who are miraculously still alive -- calculate their flight paths only on best-case scenarios and leave no room for miscalculation, error, or a nasty hitchhiker named Murphy.

Bottom line: There are many people who can base jump with not many skydives, and that created a culture of disdain for jump numbers.

But when you get to wingsuiting, skydives do count and they count big-time and if you're terrain flying without at least several hundred skydives under your belt, you are just playing Russian Roulette.

Seriously, check out the pioneers and "early adopters" of terrain flying. Almost to a man, they didn't have hundreds of skydives; they had thousands of skydives; that's why almost all of those pioneers and early adopters are still alive and still terrain flying and so many of those who followed are ashes and dust.

44

This all makes a lot of sense, and there have been several deaths caused by lack of experience, but it isn't the new jumpers that are dying at an alarming rate, it's the sport's veterans (I understand that the words "new", "alarming", and "veterans" are vague in terms of translation.)

Hmm go pros and wingsuits also known as kodak courage..Play safe my friends

^^^ Speaking of veterans who have been "proximity flying" since long before many of today's jumpers had even heard the term wingsuit. Much respect awest. If only more of us followed your example of pushing the limits slowly and safely.

yes, and some of the fatals have had thousands of skydives too, and I'd be happy to be corrected because I'm not checking the BFL, but I think a lot of the dead "veterans" to which you refer may be veterans in terms of base but still have very few total jumps when compared to the pioneers and early adopers to which I referred.

As Jeb discovered when he taught Roberta and started jumping with Jeff Nebelkopf, thousands of skydives gives you a level of awareness, ability and aerodynamic understanding that you just can't get by base jumping alone, and when it comes to dancing with granite and conifers, that freefall time counts for a lot.

44

Hey Guys,

i have been doing the BFL for a few years now,
maybe i am outta the loop as i only have 19 for this year, making it the second worst year to 2011 with 20 deaths.

or look at this
http://www.blincmagazine.com/.../Fatality_Statistics

Treejumps maybe you can help me find the missing 2 ,sometimes the reports in the incidents are doubles or helicopter jumps..

send me a pm mate..

Oh and Mr west, thanks for looking after us the other day mate, the sierra nevada was a blur to us (if you know what i am saying)

Speaking of numbers, the BFL says we are at 199?
So step right up,..who wants to be # 200 and have the double distinction of being this years first.
Wow! unbelievable but inevitable. Is it going to be you, (perhaps the newbie who made 50 skydives before heading to the Perrine and has now perfected his multiple aerials and feels ready to take them to a low antenna close to home) ? or is it you, ( after all, with 100 WS skydives under your belt and 50 slider down BASE jumps, how hard could that proxi line be? ), maybe it's you, ( yes, you've grabbed everyone's attention with your skill, but someone has just flown a cooler line and if you are going to keep the media's attention and your sponsor's you'll have to set the bar a little higher.) ?
How about this year, when you are on the edge, taking a step backwards and thinking a little,... wouldn't it be great if we could look back on 2013 and say it was one of the lowest fatality years in the recent history of the sport ?
So Hey, Let's be safe out there in 2013, and hopefully it won't be,...You !
Regards,B.

 

The only upsides we can take from this are that

1. gear is excellent, and rigging instruction seems to be good. We havent had the classic pullup cord left on pilot chute or in closing pin in a long time, and since the A line issue with light weight canopies has been addressed, no ones stuff is exploding or not opening. We are just doing what swoopers do, and finding more creative ways to kill ourselves.

2. The ratio is going down. Even 2 years ago, the 19 deaths we saw were a larger percentage of total jumpers than this last year. The number of people base jumping is skyrocketing, so is it possible that we are actually getting safer as a whole? With a total of 3, is this the lowest american death year we have had in a while? And, is this the first year in a while that no one died at the perrine?

Attached is a photo of 2010 big way record.
We are 50 something people + a fat swede.
In the last 3 years 50 something are dead.
Some of those same people are in the photo.
Many had 1000´s of jumps.
If there are that many more people jumping now then we should be able to do a 100 way this year right?
May 2013 be safe year. Please.

I'm with you. Proximity flying requires a certain level of precision with regards to wingsuit flying that not many people have - or will ever get.

Yep, and if you're playing in the extreme end of proximity flying you'll be needing a big portion of luck too. Regardless of how high your level of reaction, awareness and precision-level is, mistakes and miscalculations will eventually occur. Only dumb luck will decide if you end up under canopy with a 300+ puls or six feet under then... Vanity kills and Gopros and youtube is fueling the blaze

 

On what evidence do you base this contention?

The amount of gear sold by BASE manufacturers worldwide?

Or the proliferating numbers of YouTube/GoPro "heroes"?

If you look at parachuting from airplanes, the number of participants has never not one time "skyrocketed" as there is a finite pool of potential participants regardless of population. The level of risk is just too high to attract more than a fractional subset of even the adventurous-minded in a given population.

US Parachute Association membership has remained very stable in absolute numbers and IIRC is now below its proportional representation in the general population compared to a decade ago.

So why would a considerably more risky and expensive-per-jump activity suddenly skyrocket in popularity?

None of the historical data support your statement.

Do a poll of manufacturers. They most likely won't tell you absolute numbers, but most of them probably will give you a proportional or percentage change in their numbers for the last few years. Then you will have a rough, unscientific idea of the whether the number of jumpers is increasing, decreasing or remaining stable. Anything else is quantum observer-distorted and is not statistically valid.

My own thought is that the ratio is stable or increasing because, even as the gear and basic training improves (as itdid with skydiving), people are, ahem, gravitating towards ever-more risky, ever-more skill/experience-intensive variations on BASE jumping (aerials and then proxy flying and now terrain flying) at ever-lower jumps numbers and overall parachuting experience, with ever-decreasing knowledge about what they're doing -- and ever-less awareness of what they don't know. For example:

"Hey, I watched that hot chick grinding the crack on youtube, so how hard can it be?"

44

I know asylum specifically has seen their orders increase dramatically in the last 2 years, cant comment on the other manufacturers. I wonder if markus will chime in with the numbers of registered swiss valley jumpers in the past years. I think the number of people that are out doing low objects, ie perrine and moab are fairly similar, I think its the number of people that jump only on foreign bigwall trips and not around local areas. Ive met a few jumpers who live in my area, but have never jumped anything in the area.

sorry to put it so bluntly, but are you talking about #184 of the BFL ?

Wait, this base jumping shit is dangerous?
Why didn't someone tell me before!!!

No not at all, just a good surrogate measure for the increase in base. Youre supposed to register and get a landing card when jumping in the valley, would be interesting to see if those numbers have increased.

Edit: Just looked at the list to see what youre talking about. Markus is also the name of the current SBA president.

Yes and No. Markus was big time member of SBA board but there is also other Markus who is now handling this...

Hey Charley,

I'm not the president, just a foreign minister. :) base1007 is the president. Markus W who was our media representative unfortunately ended to the list last year... Such a terrible loss to all of us.

Anyway, just as a statistical info : last year 396 jumpers payed the landing card. We estimate that approx 20% not pay it so that means we had about 500 jumpers in the valley. We had also 5 fatalities there so this means that 1% of the jumpers who came... Never left the place. I would suggest that everyone coming there would take a good thunk about this fact.

Play safe.*

Dunny that sure was a great year and also a fantastic jumping day,

But i am doubting you will get more then that mate,

remember the other jumper that chick who went before the 53 way because she was nervous , it could of been a 54 way hahah

i miss some of the faces in that photo mate,

oh and the guy who came late as we were all ready to go and managed to get into his wingsuit and get on the record..

i will be seeing you again this year dunny.. good times coming.. 2013

On more than one occasion I have heard jumpers citing this as their reason to push harder earlier. Gotta get it all in before I start college etc.

I don't agree, wingsuit proximity base is relatively easy and I've jumped with tonnes of people with way better flying skills that Jeb or Roberta, they just never seek and publicity and very rarely if ever post any footage of their jumping.

What a sucessfull wingsuit proximity base does require is consatnt good judgement and some good luck, flying the suit is the easy part.

When I see the wingsuit fatalities, it's seems to be a pretty even sample across all categories of ws base pilots. Guess the inherent danger of ws base is high enough that the inexperience of new pilots is balanced out with longer exposure to risk of the more experienced.

This post is not directed at you Tree.
I have done some maybe extensive research on risks. Bottom line? People need a certain amount of risk. If you take one risk away, they will find another to fill the void.
If someone wants to do some research i would suggest comparing AAD timelline with swoop fatalities. i predict you will see a latent trend. AADs, then one year later the increase in swoop fatalites.
Who is game to take this on?
take care,
space

"Fear not, nor be dismayed at the appearance that is darkness, at the disguise that is evil, at the empty cloak that is death, for you have picked these for your challenges. They are stones on which you choose to whet the keen edge of your spirit." — Richard Bach

This is a well documented phenomenon called "Risk Homeostasis" or "Risk Shifting." There have been a bunch of transportation safety studies about it, primarily related to seat belts and speeding (basically, if you require people to wear seatbelts they tend to drive faster).

Articles:

http://www.vicnapier.com/...ktaking_behavior.htm
http://www.dropzone.com/...d_Skydiving_663.html

Google can find you a bunch of more general articles on the subject.

Kinda hard to exercise good judgment when you don't have a sharp picture of your limits and capabilities.

Kinda hard to exercise good judgment when you don't have a lot of reps under parachute.

I guess that's where that "good luck" part comes in for you, eh?

BTW, you're mixing jebs and jeffs and references.... I said Jeb realized after jumping with Jeff and Roberta that skydives count big time in helping you fly proxy and terrain better and sooner.

Of course there are better terrain flyers than both Jeff and Roberta, but an inordinate number of them have already assumed room temperature, whereas Roberta and Jeff are so far still as hot and cool as ever.

44

The judgement I am referring to is with regards to weather and wind conditions for given jumps, also things like flying a higher exploration line before committing to a balls out high proximity line.

The good luck part is surving the situations that are outside of your control, and I've had my share of that.

Jokke sommer would be a good example, not massive amounts of skydives but good judgement and planning and had some luck at the right times.

I agree with Jeb, Jeff Nebelkoph is a great pilot.

I don't agree that being above room temperature is any indication of skill in wingsuit base, I think that the margins for error are low enough that for most, longer exposure equates to greater total risk.

Spelling

By room temperature, 44 means dead.
As in 72 degrees versus the usual 98.6.

Also - Jeff Nebelkoph is a great jumper
from FL while Jeb Corliss is the tall, bald
guy all in black from Malibu.

I have never done proximity flying, do
newbies of this discipline take the time
to study micro-climatology?

Not micro climatology, if the wind is blowing so hard on the exit point that you must keep your wings closed just to avoid getting blown off the exit, it would be better to hike the 3hrs down than to jump only for evacuation purposes or better yet check the forecast winds at altitude before you go, that would be good judgement. Those people that do this consistently have longer ws base careers than those who believe their skills will keep them safe.

in reply to "Hmm go pros and wingsuits also known as kodak courage..Play safe my friends "
.........................................


Oh yeah this be the truth. this sport is unforgiving.
the way it manifests is praps unknown to inexperienced people.

The last guy I saw get dead was acting like a proper fukwit on the exit point. he was amougst but not a part of , a lot of very decent people who cared greatly for their jump buddies.

The deceased spent some of his last moments on this earth wanking his mouth into other jumpers rear mounted gopros and jokingly pretending to push people off who were preparing to exit.
I personally saw him (so did my gopro) grab at peoples rigs/pilot chutes as they exited no doubt thinking he was being funny.

While he was so busy performing for all the cameras he forgot to plan his complicated, life threatening ledge mounted camera swoop. He died trying to look good for the cameras.

He was a proper highly educated twit but we all felt sorry for him cause he got dead.

I'm just glad that when he made a grab for my buddy's pc on exit that he missed...he payed for his stupidity with his life.

thats how unforgiving can manifest


If you see this type of behaviour .... stand back out of their way . they're temporary...and you mite not want them to take you with them.

If we wish to remain a self regulated sport
We must regulate ourselves and others you see acting inappropriately.

Simple, tell the fuckhead to stop being a fuckhead.

That's the best written word

Terrible advice from Treejumps.

WE will see more and more fatalities because more and more jumps occur. Its a numbers thing more than a trend in the sport thing.

Stay off my bridge until further notice with that nonsense, Tree.

 

"If you are a new jumper, do yourself a favor and just stick to trying to throw triples from 400'. "

That advice

yup I am skiing.

You cant detect the obvious sarcasm?

Markus said
"We had also 5 fatalities there so this means that 1% of the jumpers who came... Never left the place.*"

1% is nothing.

Approximately 1.8 people die per second which is about 150,000 people that die per day and roughly 54,750,000 per year.

Based on a world population of 6,465,000,000

Basic math will net you a percentage of 0.008468677
which is just a hair short of 1 percent death rate per year.


http://www.biblehelp.org/mortality.htm

that means if your a base jumper your just as likely to die some other way

Fun little play with statistics, but grossly misleading in every meaningful way.

Statistics are as you interpret them. Think it from the other point of view, do you know 99 base jumpers? If you and your 99 friends would be to take a trip together to LB, statistically speaking one of you guys will come back in an ash jar. That´s the other way to look at it. I´m not saying if 1/100 morality rate annually among your friends is a lot or not, that´s up to individually each of us to decide. I just wanted to bring up some figures based on our statistics as Charlie asked for them.

Well, I have been base jumping for just over 15 years now and about half of the people I use to travel and jump with are either dead, crippled or retired. I hate to say that out of those three reason for stopping the major majority stopped because they died. I do a lot of high risk activities and always have but base jumping is without a doubt the one that has killed and broken the most.

I have been diving with sharks without cages for over 20 years and have over 1000 dives. I have never, not once, been worried about anyone dying on any of those trips and to date not even one person has died from getting attacked by a shark on any one of my journeys.

Now base jumping on the other hand is a completely different story. When I started jumping I would say 3 out of 10 trips would end with a fatality of someone either in my group or around my group. Now it seems to be about 8 out of 10 trips end with death. This increase has a lot to do with the fact I spend a lot of time in the valley and there is almost always at least one death while I am there but the fact that I have come to expect death says a lot about the activity.

Base jumping is dangerous and I feel it is irresponsible for people to try and sugar coat that fact. Any person thinking about getting into a sport that can kill them should be made very aware of what they are getting them selves into and what the risks they face really are. This way the person can decide for them selves if they are truly willing to take on the risks associated with that activity.

+1

I suppose most jumpers don't know the meaning of basejumping until
They have witnessed a fatality and then every jump from then after
Has a change for every person in a different way

Until then most jumpers believe they are gonna be the lucky ones
It's the human brain at work

Be safe guys its been a good year 20 days in

Do you think that the amount of deaths is an indicator of the risks involved with the sport itself or an indicator of the risks taken by the individual jumpers?

I too have been BASE jumping for over 15 years and have traveled all over the world pursuing it just like you, but I can't say that I have seen an inherently large amount of deaths or even accidents. Yes, there have been a few deaths and a few serious accidents but nothing even close to the numbers you are stating. Maybe I'm jumping with more conservative jumpers who aren't pushing the envelope as much as the people you run with. I have an interesting question that just popped into my head... Since you are seeing a high rate of injury and death on your trips do you think that maybe some of those people are pushing the envelope because they are with you and are looking to impress you because many new jumpers look up to and want to emulate you? I'm not saying your style is the cause, I know people make their own decisions, it's a legitimate thought and I thought you may have some insight on it, as I'm sure you are aware that many see what you are doing and want to do it too.
You are right that BASE jumping is dangerous but it seems that the risks involved are exponentially increased when you add complicating factors such as wingsuits, trackpants, ledges to clear, little experience, etc... just like diving with sharks (been there) can be pretty safe but go ahead and get one of those underwater jetskis and then strap a few bleeding fish carcases to it and see how the danger increases as you try to maneuver around those sharks
I'm not raging on the people who push the envelope more than others either, they are an essential part of any sport in order for it to grow but don't you think that there will be a higher rate of incidences with that subgroup than with others?

I have always run with a rough crowd and in the earlier years the death toll seemed to be a mix between the people on the cutting edge pushing boundaries and the new people coming into the sport getting killed by inexperience. I would say it's always been weighted a bit more on the newer inexperienced jumpers getting taken out though (until the proximity flying movement happened anyway).

Now I would say the valley accounts for the highest death rate in my travels. Every year I come to jump someone dies. Sometimes I know the jumpers, sometimes I don't. I don't think any of them are trying to impress me and I am rarely on the jumps where people die these days. But I am around and everyone in the valley knows when it happens. If you have been jumping for 15 years you have had friends die. You have had friends get hurt. It's part of what we do.

The only other activity that I have heard these kinds of stories come from people that go to war. When I told my grandfather about Dwaine and how I got covered in his blood my grandfather said,"I hate it when that happens." He had been in WWII and he had been covered in friends blood too. Very few people can relate to that kind of thing and it was very interesting hearing his stories and how he dealt with death...

I hear you when you say your experience hasn't been as extreme as mine but I can guarantee, you have experienced more friends getting broken and dying then pretty much 95% of the rest of normal people that do not jump or go to war...

I believe 10 % of the jumpers from the KL 2001-2002 is gone, and also more than 10% of all the jumpers I have met in life.

I made my first base in 1988, the first jumper who died I had met personely,, died in 1999
People who I know died skydiving since 1986, 3 jumpers
People I know who died in a car accident 1
People I know who commited suicide 3

There is a huge dosage with pure luck in this game sometimes, and I believe many of you guys knows it.

Tom Sanders tells a story about Jan Davis (RIP) and he being at a no-jumpers-but-them fancy party somewhere in LA and casually mentioning some people they knew who had died.

"Gosh, you know a lot of dead people!" said one of the other guests.

"Well, we're in our 40s," said Tom. "Doesn't everyone know a lot of dead people by this age?"

"NO!" said the guest, and Tom and Jan quickly discovered that they knew about ten times as many dead people as did any of their companions.

And it's true because it becomes background noise for us, and the bottom line is, most jumpers know more dead people than most soldiers do because soldiers mostly have short tours of duty. Very few of them have been in "combat" for 15 years like Jeb and Jason, or 40 like myself.

So after I heard that story, to see just how many more dead people I knew than the average non-jumper/extreme athlete, I started keeping a death list, and as of today, that list numbers 223. Here is the breakdown:

65 bounces (skydiving and BASE)
41 old age
28 airplane/helicopter/balloon crashes
25 cancer
18 heart attack/heart failure
15 suicides*
10 miscellaneous diseases
10 car/motorcycle crashes
6 murdered
3 climbing
3 stunt
3 falls
2 drug overdoses
1 accidental shooting
1 KIA Iraq

As you can see, about 100 of the total are from bounces, plane crashes and other extreme sports.

Now that I'm getting older, more of the dead people I know are dead because of old age, heart attacks and cancer, but even now about half of the additions are fatalities from the "extreme sports wars" -- even though I'm not nearly as active as I once was and most of the people I personally know are either less active themselves or taking fewer and lesser risks.

So yes, what we do is extremely dangerous, more dangerous even than war if you look at it statistically, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to rework their risk analysis model.

44


* Interesting statistical note: 12 of the 14 suicides were experienced parachutists.

 

LOL... wasn't there for any of them.

Two were high school friends, one a girl murdered by a serial killer, the other a guy who died in an arson fire.

The third was one of my college professors, who was killed in the school parking lot by her ex-husband.

The fourth was Alan Berg, a well-known radio talk show host friend of mine who was gunned down a few blocks from my house by some Aryan Nations commandos.

The fifth was an AFF instructor at Perris named Kelly, whose cop ex-husband shot her while she was talking on the phone to another AFF instructor.

The sixth was a skydiver who did a demo into a race track biker convention. One of the bikers cut his pilot chute off for a souvenir and when he objected, they kicked him to death.

So apparently it's not getting in an argument with me that's lethal...

BTW, interesting that two of the six murders were skydivers, along with 12 of the 15 suicides....

44

+1

I like that

Jumping 24yrs this year. Seen 1 fatality.

24 years is a long time. How many people have you known that have died in the sport?

I bet it's more then one...

15. About the same as i know of that have died from cancer.

When i began jumping 20 had died. Now we average almost 20 a year!! Everything has changed so much in 20 years it is difficult to compare numbers.
After some research it does appear base has become the sport with the highest fatality rate per year.
Climbing above 8000m does fluctuate depending on the size of groups being "lost".
Isle of Man race has 240 fatalities over 100 years during only 6 weeks per year.
MMA only 3

WFIIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/...d_severity_of_injury

"A German study reported that injuries in horse riding are rare compared to other sports, but when they occur they are severe. Specifically, they found that 40% of horse riding injuries were fractures, and only 15% were sprains. Furthermore the study noted that in Germany, one quarter of all sport related fatalities are caused by horse riding...."

Of course, much more people riding a horse then jumping, but still. The figures for Holland (source: National Olympic Committee) also name horse riding as the most dangerous sport.

Riding horses is considered the most dangerous non extreme sport. Out of the estimated 7,000,000 people that ride horses in the USA each year approximately 100 die. Compared to the approximate 2000 base jumpers in the world with about 20 dying each year. You do the math. They are not even close, even if you triple the estimated number of base jumpers around the world...

Here's some math:

7,000,000 US riders
100 fatalities

Let's sync up the numbers by adding three zeroes to the 2,000/20 numbers:

2,000,000 BASE jumpers
20,000 fatalities

Now for fun, let's do what Jeb suggested and triple the number of BASE jumpers to 6,000 before we add the three zeroes:

6,000,000 BASE jumpers
20,000 fatalities

Well, that sure makes a big difference, doesn't it?

Suddenly, the world's most dangerous non-extreme sport is way closer to sitting in your easy chair watching TV and eating chips than it is skydiving, much less BASE jumping.

One more fun-with-math BASE question:

How many total proxy/terrain flyers are there compared to the 2,000/6,000 total BASE jumpers, and how many proxy/terrain fatalities are there among the total BASE fatalities?

Then add three or four zeroes to those numbers to sync them up with the horseback riding numbers and see what you get.

Whoa.

44

F*ck statistics! Let's go jumping!

This is about people understanding the risks involved in what they do. I will say it again, I feel it is irresponsible for people to try and sugar coat the realities of the dangers involved. There is nothing wrong with doing dangerous things but at least understand how dangerous it really is. To try and convince people it's on par with riding a horse is just silly...

I personally don´t understand who here is trying to sugar coat anything? Where does all this sugar coating stuff come from? It is a well known fact that generally 20+ base jumpers die every year. No-one is trying to deny that. I personally told in this thread that 2011 we had 5 fatalities and roughly 500 jumpers in LB valley. We estimate that we had 15-20k jumps. So those figures work out on roughly 1% mortality rate among jumpers who visit LB annually and roughly 1/3000-4000 statistical fatality rate in number of jumps. I don´t think there is anything sugar coated there either, those are more or less "facts" (as good "facts" as we can have on a non regulated sport). I leave it up to each and every jumper to decide if they are willing to accept the facts as they are or go and play bridge or collect stamps. Not trying to sugar coat anything but also not trying to make a statement if this sport is more dangerous than some other. Each jumper has to decide on what risk level they are willing to play with.

Personally I lost 3 very close friends last year in BASE jumping. People that I used to phone with, hang around with and people that I loved a lot. For me that´s a lot and it makes me think a lot. But I would not call that sugar coating, it is a personal fact for me and I let each and every jumper to decide on their own if that is a lot or not. If someone else lost more friends in horse riding, I couldn´t care less. It is not a competition which one is more "extreme sport", they are all just activities with associated risk in them. And I truly hope that all people involved in any activity understand the risk associated with it.

But did you know 28.935% of all statistics are made up!

the old folk Lenin said long time ago:
"dont trust any statistic that you didnt done by yourself"

the comunity is very small,....everybody knows everyone,...sometimes only via internet and youtube, but quiet often personaly,.....
a friend,...friend of a friend,...
so when a fatality happens we feel much closer to the case than on other occasion,....right?
think gives us a twisted sight on it,....

fact is:
when i start BASE the fatalitylist was at 84,...now its 199,.....scary,...
seems a spectacular death toll,....
otherwise its almost a 10 years period,...
but i know alot of them personaly,...
even when i meet them only once in a livetime,...

statistics say nothing,....
its the way we are involved,...more or less,....


"death of an individual is a tragedy,...death of millions is statistics"
J.W.Stalin

BASE jumping is not dangerous - jumpers are!

I've always disagreed with Tom A's and Jeb's stance that it is inevitable that you will eventually hurt yourself in BASE. I teach that while BASE and Skydiving are dangerous you can participate in both safely using good judgement. I agree with Robbi, it's the jumpers themselves that are dangerous. When I started BASE there were a couple of main rules;Do your best to make sure your canopy opened on heading, and leave yourself enough altitude for a safe deployment.
Like any growing, extreme sport the boundaries are being pushed.
Jeb trained very hard in aerials, and WS flying, he know's his abilities and he knows the risks of pushing beyond them. Object strikes are too often the result of off heading openings caused from unsymmetrical body position common with underskilled aerialists, thus a self induced statistic to support Jeb's theory.The people pushing limits in WS BASE for example Robbi, Jokke, Halvor, all know what it takes to attempt the lines that are so impressive in the media. Undoubtably some very skilled flyers have become statistics in this discipline, (in itself it should probably win the title of the most risky extreme sport ) and even more reason for the unprepared to be cautious.
So, as Robbi says it's the jumpers that are dangerous.
Like Robin, I have lost many friends to Life, for all the same reasons, including avalanches, swimming, etc, in my opinion there are only two or three fatalities in BASE that couldn't have been avoided by better judgement, and many are blatant instances of Darwinism at work.
The only time I witnessed a fatality that involved a BASE rig it was a proxi Skydive at a BASE event.
I have my beliefs, I stand by my assertion that BASE is a risky sport that can be done safely, but Jeb how many people do you know that have done your kind of preparation to push the boundaries? Not trying to "sugarcoat " anything, but isn't it perhaps a bit "irresponsible " to continue to lure in, the unwary, uninformed, and unprepared through media sensationalism?
Regards, B.

I usually explain it this way:

Parachuting is a lot like Driving an Automobile in
that YOU can make it as dangerous as you want
(speed, drive drunk, text, never wear a seatbelt)
but even if you are very safe, sober, and focused
there is still some inherent risk in both activites.


Most of the people who hear this speal are most
certainly guilty of some or all of those dangerous
choices, hence it reminds them they are already
a dare-devil just of the boring, unskilled variety.



RE: being 40 and dead friends

I have witnessed a BASE fatality (Perrine) and a
few SKY fatalities (WFFC + Swooping) since 2002.

Definitely have more dead friends from motorcycle
and car accidents but also agree that jumpers are
more likely to die outside the sport but often from
odd circumstances: suicide, murder, drugs, etc.

 
Not replying to anyone in particular...

The role of identity should not be underestimated. There are people who BASE jump where the identity of being someone who participates in a dangerous sport is very important to them.

To tell someone that their sport isn't as dangerous as they think is to attack that identity; some people cannot process that information as a result.

I think we're sort of arguing the definition of "sugar coat" here.

Yes, we all recognize and acknowledge that BASE is more dangerous than most other activities; it's when we compare it to those other actvities that the definition of sugar coating comes in.

For example, my definition of sugar coating includes Green Machine's analogy. To me, that seriously sugar coats the danger because to even remotely compare driving to BASE generally and proxy/terrain flying specifically, you have to add that you're doing that driving at 100 mph on narrow streets and you can't let up on the gas until you get where you're going.

See what I mean? One way really tells it like it is; the other one sugar coats it because, really, how many garden variety daredevils can even imagine driving 100 mph without letting up on the gas?

Part of the problem is that when you are in the environment, it's hard to see it objectively. For example, Jeb himself has admitted that he sugar coated it in his own mind until he got up close and personal with Table Mountain.

Botom line: Yes, you can reduce your BASE risk through the practices descibed by others in this thread, but it's absurd to compare the relative risks of BASE with any other "risky" sport other than summiting K2, Annapurna and a few other of the gnarliest 8000 meter peaks, which do in fact have higher death-per-participant ratios than BASE generally, but probably are still lower than they are for proxy/terrain BASE.

 

+1

think Martin hits the nail dead center,....

boom. +1

be glad you can even influence your destiny... many cannot.

Yes, I haven't yet seen someone compare proxy/terrain flying with the risks of playing soccer in minefields or dodging snipers on the way to the grocery store.

It is indeed a mark of privilege when we work as hard to make life dangerous as most people work to stay safe.

Thanks for the perspective.

44

+1

If you teach people that they can get through this without getting hurt, you encourage them to take a faster, sloppier approach.

People who are afraid of inevitable injury are more likely to follow a careful, measured approach to preparation.

People who are taught that they can control all the variables are _more likely to get hurt_ in the long run. I believe that teaching this way is a disservice to the students who trust you.

...don't forget another perspective of this ''problem''.

Every BASE jumper is ready to sell two stories if needed
Story #1. ( i.e. for media )
BASE jumping is the most hard core , dangerous sport on earth.
So many jumper dies every year as we are free, pushing the limit , blah, blah, blah...
that why the jump will cost you $6000 a second for TV..

Story #2. ( i.e. to get the permit to jump some building K.L., Frankfurt, China,, etc.. )
Base jumping is the most safe sport. We, BASE jumpers are super prepared, skilled , conservative, nothing can happened.
Statistically , we are not even close to any trouble...
Give us the permit to jump your building please , please ...?

Now which statistic path you guys discuss here?
Matin said interesting fact too, but, one thing is forgotten there as well...
Most of those who run over land mines or play in front of snipers, would rather continue that game than BASE jump! To jump of the cliff?! Are you crazy?!
That is public perception.

BASE jumping follow Climbing destiny, it took 100 years to get that sort recognized and publicly accepted despite of hundreds of dead climbers per year. Today climbing is accepted sport or skill.
BASE is not yet but it will be in 30-40 or 100 years.. who knows.
Statistic will help there for sure...

Most of those who run over land mines or play in front of
snipers would rather continue that game than BASE jump!

Exactly, which is why I reference driving fast
without a seatbelt while drunk and texting!!
How many people roll those dice regularly?

To Robinheid regarding: sugar coating...
I say "Parachuting", not proximity flying,
because I do not participate in the latter.

Kidwicked & Martin245 made good points
and Robibird's two stories drive it home

You cannot control all the variables, but all the variables are under your control.

39 Years old
14 Years around skydiving
Started BASE 11 years ago
c.140 People added to the list since my first jump

2 friends - Suicide
1 friend - Skydiving
Handful of friends of friends - Skydiving
4 Friends - BASE
c.15 - 20 Friends of Friends - BASE


My experience, parachutes kill more friends than motorcycles, cars, drugs etc...

Its all relative....

Has the community changed in that newer jumpers are less likely to have fatalities be personal (i.e. friends or friends of friends), or has the close nit nature of BASE still maintained with the increased participation (has there been an increased participation, as it would appear to be so?)

I ask, as I wonder if this is the case, the less personal nature of fatalities means that people have a lesser appreciation of the risk and consequences. I find many people say they accept the risk, but until your network starts falling, you cant truely appreciate the seriousness of this sport.

I know of several newer jumpers who have been in the sport for a couple of years, and have not known people personally to go in, whereas my first year several friends of friends went in, and within 2 years my first friend went in.

Has the entrance to the sport (e.g. minimal skydiving experience, minimal pre-First jump preparation) changed the dynamic of relationships within the community?

Just curious....


I regularly try and communicate the risks in parachute sports to non-jumpers in the same way. Risk acceptance, Risk Awareness, and Risk Perception. I find people think when you use the driving analogy. Driving is more risky than most peoples perception of it, and in fact, probably falls outside of their own percieved risk acceptance levels. When someone is happy to drive at 80mph along the motorway in the rain whislt using a mobile phone either texting or talking, but wont do a tandem skydive because "its too dangerous", I like to have them think a little about that....

I agree with you, I always tell people that this is a very easy sport to get injured in, but it's just not necessary, so to avoid injury you have to gain experience and knowledge.


I totally disagree, introducing the continuous anxiety and awareness of an unpleasant experience can serve to bring that worriesome and unpleasant experience into being.


I think you misunderstood, I never teach that you can control all variables, I teach that by wise decision making you can eliminate rather than introduce undesirable variables.
Anyway, I agree that there are certain students to BASE ( and Skydiving ) that will benefit from being taught through introducing fear as an incentive to making good decisions, but I don't teach all my AFF students with that " Tough Love " approach, I teach them how to avoid bad decisions and how to handle the variables that occur and how to keep themselves safe in an "extreme " sport. and I do the same for my BASE students, perhaps one of the differences is that my BASE students often started out as my AFF students.
I respect both you and Jeb, but I cringe every time I see Jeb in the media giving the " Sport Death spiel "

Regards, B.

 
"In reply to:People who are afraid of inevitable injury are more likely to follow a careful, measured approach to preparation."

"I totally disagree, introducing the continuous anxiety and awareness of an unpleasant experience can serve to bring that worriesome and unpleasant experience into being. "


This is an extremely good point. There is nothing more scary to me than seeing people being scared/nervous on exitpoint right before jumping. This is where you as a jumper need to be as composed, calm and cool as possible. If you are not well prepared mentally you will not perform well! I hate it when big shots in the sport talk about how scared they are and how they battle their demons on exit and jump in order to overcome fear. Its bullshit. If I am scared before a jump I hike back down. Simple as that. It will keep me alive and I get to see another day... There is a huge difference in being afraid in jumping and being excited or having butterflies in your stomach. Thats awareness, focus and alertness. You scared or nervous? Then you should back down in my book, because this is not your day or your jump

You seriously think that?
Not possible to be scared and still control your self?

I have done jumps I am 99% sure I can make and for some reason I have still been scared as fuck. There is some stupid devil inside me who likes to fuck with me in some situations by making me scared. I try to debate with him using MY common sense and if my common sense says nothing is wrong i jump and show the devil the middle fingers. There is times when the devil is right and it´s just about recognizing those situations.

Anyway in my opinion scared does not mean you are over your head or that you can´t perform solid. Control it.

Even had my leg shake sometimes. That might be "alarming" to someone looking. It´s not more than 1-3 second before stepping off shit calms down totally. Usually it´s scary exitpoints not jumps.

I don't think that BASE and AFF students should be taught the same. I've read through some instructor guides for AFF students and there is a lot of stuff in there that I don't think is a good idea for teaching BASE. Most of it has to do with the mindset--things like teaching that the reserve will always save you (to build student confidence). Blind faith has no place in BASE jumping, in my opinion.

I found this very interesting.

I have no interest in selling either of these stories, or even talking to either of these audiences.

I am almost entirely interested in communicating with new (and potential) BASE jumpers, particularly students. I don't think that either of these stories is the right one to "sell" to them.

Perhaps this explains why the story I'm telling is different--it's intended for a different audience.

I disagree. There are a number of people who have made a vast number of jumps with no significant injuries. They serve as a great example to teach students that if they are slow and conservative in their learning then they too can also get through without getting hurt.

Firstly I don't think your scare tactics are as initially effective as you think. Secondly, I believe that any possible caution generated from said scare tactics will be relatively short lived. And thirdly, there are people who may even respond adversely to this by taking chances at every turn seeing as the outcome is apparently inevitable anyway.

Yes that would be a disservice. But I don't believe that is what anyone is saying either. Of course you will never be able to control all the variables but you should at least be trying to. Or at least limit yourself to jumping with as few variables as possible.
What students need to understand is that BASE jumping is a very demanding and vey unforgiving sport where injury is very possible or even highly likely, but not necessarily inevitable.

I believe in that. People should not force themselves off cliffs. If you are at the exit-point and having a serious debate with yourself over jumping or not I think walking back down is the answer...
That doesn't mean nervous or scared people can't handle it or have a good jump. Seen plenty of those, had a couple my self! But base-jumping isn't like an infantry maneuver in some war that HAS to be made, regardless of how scared people are and where the means (and cost) are justified by the goal... I have seen very skilled jumpers fuck up big time on easy jumps/nice exits because they were scared or nervous. The mountain is not going anywhere...

 
I don't believe skydiving, base-jumping or proximity wing-suit flying is a numbers game. I always believed and still do believe it is decision making game.

i though I was making all the right decisions......until I went in, then I am happy to have had a bit of luck also. Now even after 10 years in the sport, I gotta learn a new lesson.

reiner

Reiner,

as the only guy who has gone in and lived to tell about it, could you please share with us the lesson you say you've learned?

+1

also like your phrase "... a bit of luck..."

Judgement is the most important survival trait for a BASE jumper.

Understanding the risks involved helps people to exercise good judgement. Some people have bad judgement no matter what. Some people have good judgement no matter what. Many people get nudged toward good or bad judgement by the circumstances, their jump buddies, or their instructors. Anytime I can nudge someone in the direction of good judgement I am going to do so.

Do you still have that footage of you freefalling that cliff in Twin that Dwain would only PC assist? I seem to remember you opening about 10 foot above the river.

Or what about your roll-over to cut-away in Norway?

All shining examples of good judgement!

And part of the reason that I'm interested in nudging people toward good judgment.

Learning from the experience of others is much easier than having those experiences yourself.

+1

learn from others mistakes , would rather do that then make em and end up broken with no more jumps

+ 1
THREAD/

i.e. poacher turned gamekeeper, or safecracker turned security consultant. Some people do choose to employ and trust those people, I suppose.

I personally think there is a distinction to be made between people who had the common sense up front not to do extremely dangerous or foolish things, and people who did them then retrospectively say "yeah, don't do what i did".

A distinction without a difference... guess you haven't heard the old maxim:

Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

44

You're talking about BASE jumping. You're doing something "extremely dangerous or foolish" to an inarguably overwhelming majority of people. That kinda makes you the last person that should judge someone based on the choices they make in that regard.

No, I'm working under the assumption that we're all BASE jumpers here, not from the perspective of whuffos.

My point is that Tom said he was all about "steering people to make good decisions" (or something like that).

When in fact he's made some very, very risk decisions in his past.

When I pointed this out his response was, essentially: "yeah, that makes me qualified to steer people to make good decisions".

And my response is that in my opinion it's preferable to listen someone who has made *consistent* good decisions, not someone who has made bad decisions and then said "don't do what I did".

If you disagree that's fine.

 
I wrote this all down because someone on the forum had asked me what lessons I had learned from 'going-in'-full speed, with no parachute out, while trying to film Jokke Sommer at Brevent - Chamonix, on July 23rd 2012.

http://www.google.fr/...vm=bv.42080656,d.ZG4


My first base injury occurred only six months after I started base-jumping on 19th June 2004. It was a hard landing on asphalt, which resulted in a broken ankle that required a few screws. Back then I was working for a builder in Empuriabrava, Spain, tiling rich peoples bathrooms, trying to earn money to skydive as much as possible. I had been trying to land a job on the DZ for more than a year, however, Empuriabrave aint so easy. Anyway, I met a few base-jumpers who seemed very level headed and started base-jumping - I was instantly 'hooked' and preferred the mentality of the base community than that of the skydiving scene. Over the next 6 months, I progressed the normal way - slider down from various bridges, until I was ready for my first slider-up, off the still unfinished Viaduct D' Millau. Up until then, I had been using a borrowed Raven3-245 canopy and velcro rig, which, on that day was not available. My buddy quickly arranged to borrow another set of gear for me to use, which, unfortunately for me, was a Dragon-218 that belonged to one of the members of Icarus's 'team-xtreme'. I had walked back from the jump on 3 previous occasions due to the wind and the fact that there was no slider on the Raven. (We were concerned that the wind was too strong for only a 3 second delay, at that hight of 240m). I remember it was a hard thing to do back then - to walk down, I didn't make a lot of money and I had to pay my share of the trip regardless of whether I jumped or not. So, I was very happy and revved up this time when everything was good to go and I exited - counting to 5 as I had been instructed. I was doing the 1-1 thousand, 2 -1 thousand thing, and although it wasn't a low pull AGL. - it was slightly too low to make it back to the landing area, that was higher than normal ground level. The combination of the faster canopy, my inexperience and poor technique - and also the fact that I was wearing only skate shoes, resulted in a hard landing that has slowed me down ever since. I learnt then, at the age of 25 that I wasn't indestructible.

The lessons I learnt back then helped me to change my life. It was my first injury full stop, and up until then, I lived my life at full speed. For the first time in my life I was forced to slow down and I knew then, that if I wanted to continue in this amazing sport, I would have to first get some money so that I could stop borrowing equipment and buy my own set of gear- and also so that I was in a position where I could walk down from an object without having pressure - or to feel as though I had to jump because of the cost of the base-trip. I also learnt not to put all my trust in other people. I knew that I had to learn as much as I could and find out the proper technique to jump every object safely and with the right equipment. That experience gave me the encouragement to go back and study, to get my qualifications, to go offshore and make some money, to be able to afford and dedicate proper resources for base-jumping. (Working offshore also helped me to develop good risk assessment skills, which I always use while base-jumping) During the following year I was mostly jumping alone in Ireland - phoning my mentor at times when I was unsure. I kept a base diary and thought long and hard about which techniques felt right for me. This period was good for me - It gave me the confidence to trust my own judgement.


..............When I first came to the valley to jump, I quickly identified the people who, back then, had been jumping the longest. People like Dave Barlia, Andy West, Atle Dahl, Ronald Overdijk, Jon Inge Hovda (R.I.P), I asked myself, What did they have in common?? What was it that has kept these people alive?? Well,.....they were the guys sitting quietly in the bar. They never seemed to be the loud ones, or the ones at the centre of attention. They didn't seem to have an ego - They were the lifers -the guys who seemed to be jumping for themselves and for the love of the sport. Well, that's great!, I thought. - I'm jumping for myself too! - I don't have an ego either!

Over the years, I paid close attention to these people and early on in my base career, I adopted the mentality that I didn't believe base-jumping was a numbers game - I believed it was a decision making game. And I believed that having an ego could be very detrimental to that decision making process. While this mentality was partly right and had kept me safe for the last 9 years since my hard landing - I was wrong about one thing!......I do have an ego!- All men have egos! I learnt that lesson on 23rd July 2012. Over the last 6 months, since I went in, I have had plenty of time to think about what happened on that day in Chamonix. It has been difficult at times, trying to work it out and resolve it in my head. I had to work it out!....How could a guy with that much experience fuck up that badly?? How could I trust myself to jump again?? Did I want to jump again?? - if so, how could I convince my girl (who has never asked me to stop - thanks baby! I love you for it.) that it wouldn't happen again?? How could it have all gone so wrong in the last 15 minutes of the day??

I have been flying wing-suits since 2008. I have over 650 wing-suit base-jumps and feel very comfortable and current on the exit. My progression has been thorough. I understand the principles of energy management and flight dynamics and have worked very hard to learn how to fly well. I have never had the desire to go beyond my limits - I have lost many friends in wing-suit accidents and know only too well the dangers. I have never pushed to fly camera - Although I always wanted to try it, I wanted it to come naturally and figured I would try to fly camera when the time felt right. One week before I went in at Brevent, while I was filming for a documentary, I felt the time was right and I began flying camera for the first time. I enjoyed it very much and loved the fact that when you are concentrating solely on your subject, your flying feels more natural.

......Over the years I have been on many base trips, however,that day at Brevent, something was different. It was a blue-sky day, the sun was shining - there was a dozen or so jumpers, with more arriving towards the end of the day. If you ask anyone who was there what the atmosphere was like they would tell you that it was festive, it was great! As the day went by, the atmosphere was continually rising. It was a new site and wing-suiting had never been seen there before. The locals loved it! - and they were bringing us lunch and drinks and letting us pack in their gardens. There would be 50 people standing behind us on exit and 50 more, crammed inside the gondola, looking for a view outside of the windows - waiting for us to jump. We felt like rock-stars! But secretly, we all new - This can't last! Just wait until someone goes in, then you won't like it- then you'll shut us down! We all felt like it couldn't last and we felt that we were the lucky ones who would be the only ones who get to jump it, before it gets shut down. No one thought or ever dreamed that by the end of the day, 2 people would go in. On our way back from each jump, we would stop for a beer at a small pub and compare videos and see each others cool lines. I guess this all may have influenced me a little - You see, I'm a pretty disciplined guy when it comes to jumping. I wanted only to do a maximum of three jumps that day, even though there was no hiking involved - I knew it was a mentally challenging jump. And normally I do at least 4 or 5 jumps on a new jump before going too close. But on this one jump - with the possibility of multiple lines, I was forgetting to treat it like 4 or 5 different jumps, instead I was doing a different line on every jump.

So.....How does an very experienced jumper who usually thinks about things quite carefully, end up on a two way, trying to film Jokke Sommer, on a jump with a 140m start, in bad winds??

Well,.... I didn't think I had an ego, remember - And when Jokke saw my first attempt at video and was impressed and then asked me to film him.....Basically, I became 'flattered' - Flattered that he thought my filming was any good. At that moment, my ego was awakened - and came to the surface - at that moment, I wanted to jump! - Even though my conscious brain was telling me I had already done my three jumps for the day. Suddenly, I was talking myself into jumping - finding reasons for jumping, not against. I knew it was gusting too much and still, I was telling myself, Yeah, Jokke is right - We are professionals -And we can handle that wind. He is right! - The light is perfect for filming ....and I have got a day pass....getting that extra jump in would make it make it more economical - especially when this jump definitely won't last forever!

In hind-sight, it is very easy to see how stupid my decision was. We all should have known! The mistakes I made after I jumped, (I was focussing too much on my subject while lifting my head, which resulted in me killing my forward speed) were always going to happen when learning to fly camera, However if I had started on a guy who I had more range over and also picked a safer jump with more vertical airspace - then perhaps the outcome of those mistakes may have been very different. I knew well, that when learning to film, you don't pick a guy who weighs nothing and flies super-good and then combine that with an exit point with a super short start and technical lines! That is just crazy!....And however crazy it sounds - I did do it! And the blame lies solely with me. Jokke may have asked me to jump, even when I didn't want to! - but he didn't push me off! I jumped myself.... And the rest... is a true miracle! (As I only broke my right arm and fractured my right femur)



It has been a tough 6 months trying to sort this out in my head. I have been hard on myself at times. There were a few things that I hadn't put enough thought into - and the reasons I discovered, are because of the pace of how quickly the sport is progressing these days. I always thought that I would jump as long as my body allowed it, but now I realize that when I get closer to 40, I will have to re-asses how well my eyes can focus in the shadows and the changing light. I also have to keep a check on my reaction time - as flying a wing-suit in close proximity to the ground will always be a fast sport that requires fast thinking and quick reaction time. But for now, I feel I am ready to jump again. I feel I have analyzed it piece by piece and now I embrace the experience and the lessons I have learnt - Hopefully they will allow me to have another 10 years of this wonderful life.

I can never guarantee that I won't go in again. However, I can pretty much guarantee, that if I do- it will be my own fault.

Reiner.

Reiner WOW!!

What a post mate ,
It's funny I still remember the last time we spoke sitting at the horner bar
Watching the fresh faces in the valley and talking about students

I am glad your going well again mate

I guess this accident has changed your mind and everyday thoughts
Look forward to seeing you this season buddy

Be well

Posts like this are why I continue to sift through the mountain of garbage that is basejumper.com. Thank you for your humble and honest write up.

- Laurent

+1

+1 to that, great post and a great read.

Few people are ever that honest with themselves when something like that happens and causes you to question everything you thought you knew about yourself. It's much easier to try to find a place to lay the blame, and try to move on having missed an opportunity to grow.

I had a similar experience, and went thought the same process, I'm gald you were able to come through that and still find a way to rationalise and continue with your passion, at the end on my own experience I decide that I needed to find a new passion, not an easy task and one I'm still working on.

There's a lot that people can learn from reading that, the way you describe the atmosphere on the day sounds a lot like any new jumper would describe their first day in the valley.
Thanks for posting

 

 
That was an extraordinary post Riener1.

Thanks for the read.

hangdiver

Thanks for that post.

Amen

in reply to "People should not force themselves off cliffs. If you are at the exit-point and having a serious debate with yourself over jumping or not I think walking back down is the answer...
That doesn't mean nervous or scared people can't handle it or have a good jump. Seen plenty of those, had a couple my self! But base-jumping isn't like an infantry maneuver in some war that HAS to be made, regardless of how scared people are and where the means (and cost) are justified by the goal... I have seen very skilled jumpers fuck up big time on easy jumps/nice exits because they were scared or nervous. The mountain is not going anywhere... "
.....................................................

Agreed . Why do this unless you REALLY want to ?
It always amazed me that anyone would not listen to their own doubts until I did it myself .
Following a jump buddies lead when he was guessing half of what he thought he knew nearly got me dead .
This guy had got the altitude wrong by 900' on a 3600' cliff so he had me thinking we had 4500' .
Putting my trust and faith in this person was nearly my biggest mistake ever. So many clues about his cluelessness in hindsight that I'm still kicking myself for following his lead.

I suppose the lesson was to check any important info with more than one person. it has surprised me how many people think they know stuff and when you quiz them they're just guessing or handing on second hand info.

Now if I don't have the total confident compulsion to jump I'll go skydiving instead.

The problem is that in old days there were:
No rules
Etics
respect
brotherhood
self regulating

today you got:
no rules
anyone can get in to the sport,fuck we even encurage people to do so so we can earn mony
FJC keeps lower their requirements to newcommers, heck they dont even speak to locals anymore, if a punk shouldnt have a rig..
then we give them a ws show them arials off the perrine Brigde.. there you go..

People dies and what people used serval years of their lifes to build will fall apart,BASE will again be underground,but people will still die..

one good advise, jump w thouse you trust not to be jack ass, we can all die, but theyre less likely to do it atleast..