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Is Apex gear more expensive than others? I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. Pricing out Adrenaline or Morpheus gear seems to be about 1K cheaper for a package with all options.

What am I missing?

BadSeed BASE has some good prices. Have you looked into used gear?

Apex gear is definitely the most expensive on the market by a good margin.

For example, an unvented Flik now costs more than a (4 vents) Blackjack in the same size.

I'm a dealer for most of the manufacturers, and an Apex rig is on average somewhere between $500 and $1000 more than a rig from a different manufacturer (depending on the options).

What does "all options" mean?
As far as I know, Apex has more options than the other manufactors so your comparacy perhaps faulty?

Only Apex has the multioption as far as I know, could be more differences.

Im not opposed to used gear but it seems to be hard to find in the right size/price/value, and even then its not "that" much cheaper than new (apex excluded). Overall, i would rather go new.

I can afford the price of new I just want to make sure I am getting value.

Is Apex gear better than the others? What are you getting for that extra 1K?


Hellis,
Yea, sometimes its hard to come up with an apples to apples comparison but generally im talking about full stainless, articulated, 3 of 7 Vtec vents, magnetic bridle holder, bottomless corners, etc.

even option for option, looking at others prices, apex is way more expensive.


Again, I'm not complaining about sticker shock I just want to understand why and if there is value there for the extra price.

I wouldn't say it's any better. All the gear you're considering is equally functional.

Apex does a lot more marketing than anyone else, and has a lot more market share. They've picked their price points to take advantage of this and also to set their business flow at a level that is comfortable for them to deal with while allowing for good customer service and timely delivery. Different manufacturers make different decisions about those sort of things.

Basically, jumpers have different preferences. Some of them prefer Apex gear for various reasons, and therefore they are willing to pay a premium price for it.

Hey ski00nut,

Our current Adrenalin rig prices are $1,000 for a Zak2, which is a traditional style pin rig, or $1,100 for the Hybrid2 and LD2, both of which are low profile rigs (the Hybrid2 is designed for use with normal F111 canopies and the LD2 is for ultralight canopies like the Trango2). All Adrenalin rigs come standard with stainless hardware and dynamic corners. I'm obviously partial, but I think Jean-Noel makes the most beautiful rigs available.

We sell Atair and Consolidated Rigging Canopies. The prices obviously vary greatly based on the key variables of size, fabric, and extras. You can find up-to-date prices on our Facebook page (Parachutes Plus) and we'll be happy to answer any questions you have about the gear or prices. As a primer, I'll introduce the three Atair and two CR canopies we sell. From Atair we sell the Troll, which is a great all around canopy, made with and without Mono-Directional Valves (MDV). Atair's OSP is designed to pressurize quickly on shorter delays and performs exceptionally well in braked flight. It's usable for slider up and slider down jumps. The third canopy From Atair is the Trango2, which is an ultralight canopy designed for alpine use and in applications where drag reduction is important. The CR canopies are the Ace and BlackJack, which are also great canopies. They both use the same airfoil; the BlackJack has valves and the Ace does not. They're both available with a composite upper surface (CUS) of ZP as an extra.

Right now rigs are taking between 7 and 9 weeks while canopies are taking about 100 days. If you order them together we'll hold onto the rig until the harness arrives, put it together, inspect it, and ship it off to you.

All our prices take into account exchange rates, import duties, and international shipping. Domestic shipping is not included.

If you have any questions, hit us up on the Facebook page or give us a call: 209 365 9114. We'll be happy to get you what you need.

Parachutes Plus

Parachutes Plus,

Thanks, I checked out your prices. Do those prices include a bridle and/or pilot chute?

A complete system from Parachutes Plus includes a bridle, a stash bag, big grab toggles, a tee shirt, and a pilot chute. We add a $15 surcharge for PCs 38 and above.

Just to be clear, our website is being worked on, so for the up to date prices look at our Facebook page. You can also call us.

P+ team.

Will you guys sell to anyone? I know a guy who wants to BASE jump, and is willing to buy new gear, but doesn't want to learn to skydive first. I told him new gear comes with enough instructions to pretty much figure it out, so he just needs a place to buy it.

What are you getting at OuttaBounZ?

I have been skydiving off and on for 10 years, 150 jumps in the last 12 months and just took a Apex FJC. Not an amazing amount of experience but adequate.

I am however in Afghanistan right now, living in a 6X8' plywood cell, do not have a "crew" from which to draw advice, but want to order a rig now so that its ready when I get out of this hell-hole. Thus, I am seeking answers on this forum.

So if you are passive aggressively attacking me, you should work on understanding the situation before you run your mouth.

If you are attacking ParachutesPlus for some kind of policy (or lack thereof), start another thread, this one is about getting value when ordering new gear.

Apex has great customer service and always answers the phone, besides making all the gear right in front of you in a spotless shop. (and killer website) You did an APEX FJC and just want value?

Also if you take two seconds to fill out your profile that would help.

I know who you are. We've talked before.

It was a question that was not directed toward you. Enjoy your remaining time left in the Stan. Get home safe.

And I'll thread jack any thread I want. Don't tell me how to play the internets.

PS. buy American.

No, OuttaBounZ we won't sell to anyone. Giving someone information about our pricing hardly constitutes finalizing a sale. We appreciate your concern -- which no one doubts is totally selfless and in the interest of the BASE jumping community -- but it is unwarranted.

Ski00nut: you basically just outlined the info we'd need from you before conducting a direct shop sale. I'm not sure what OuttaBounZ has against us, but I can assure you that we're American and our sub-dealers are American as well. The rigs are imported from France, where they too are made in a spotless shop under the Mont Blanc Massif. The Atair canopies are made in another spotless shop in Slovenia in the foothills of the eastern terminus of the Alps. Both companies are run by highly experienced jumpers.

We have no personal or professional issues with any of the manufacturers in the US, so I'm not sure why OuttaBounZ is trying to create some.

We're totally into getting you gear by the time you get back. I'll give you my details on several means of communication via PM. Maybe we can Skype or communicate directly via email.

We look forward to meeting you.

RLTW

P+ team.

Do you think that CR canopies are cheaper because they have PD build them? And Apex does all their own manufacturing?

I agree. Multiple rigs and many accessory purchases from Apex, and always have gotten great service and gear.

I have also received outstanding customer service from Bad Seed BASE on multiple transactions and am happy with the gear I've gotten from Brandon.

~ Chris

No.

When the Ace and Blackjack first hit the market, they were the most expensive canopies by a wide margin. This was still true when they went to PD contract construction.

Over the years, the price of the Flik and FOX have risen dramatically. The cost of the Ace and Blackjack have also risen--but not nearly so dramatically. The production situations of those canopies has not changed during the time of those price increases.

Fliks and FOXes are still made in house by Basic Research/Apex, and Aces and Blackjacks are still made under contract by PD. I can't see how a fact that made the Ace/BJ the most expensive canopies 10 years ago would make them the cheapest today.

What the fuck are you talking about? Have against you? Should I have PM'ed my question? Or was the "buy American" comment somehow offensive to you? Are you overly sensitive? Relax, my post was hardly passive aggressive, and it was delivered without connotations that it was directed toward your little start-up or the original poster.

Maybe this will help.

To the OP, what have you jumped and what did you think about it? Why not try out some gear first? If you live in the states, and plan on buying new, why wouldn't you buy from a manufacturer that is somewhat local and always accessible? <~actual question

Looking at all the gear firsthand would be best of course, but I can't try gear in Afghanistan and I want to order now so that I have a rig when I get back. If I wait til I return it will be late summer 2013 before my gear is ready.

I've jumped an Apex DP at the FJC. I have spoken to the few base jumpers that I know and none of them can offer a solid reason why one company is better than the other. They all seem to make good gear.

If I assume the above, then the 600$ that apex gear costs (complete system) over other gear cannot be easily justified.

As far as getting something from a local manufacturer vs overseas, I wasn't under the impression that I would ever need service on the gear other than with local rigging services. How often, if at all, in the life of your system do you send it back to the manufacturer for repair/service? Slim to never I would think.

Anyway, I'm just trying to understand the price difference. I'm not opposed to paying more, unless there is no reason to do so.

I did manage to get on the phone with Apex today and got some insight.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

i bought all my gear from Apex months before my FJC, very happy with everything, i found their website by far the best and easiest to use, which in the end was why i went with them, and all the contact via email was very helpfull, $600 for a rig isnt a big deal in the scheme of things, i dont think

This is one of the reasons that I have every FJC student jump a variety of rigs from different manufacturers.

I really liked how available Jimmy and Todd were when the latest "airworthiness directive" came out. I feel like they did a great job reaching everyone who was jumping an affected canopy and even promptly answering questions from those who were not. I'm sure some might argue that you can get that kind of first hand service from any manufacturer, but with Apex there is no speculation. At many other small manufacturers the owners/sales person/customer service/manufacturers/riggers/etc wear so many hats that it is hard to get a prompt reply, depending on your definition of prompt. But they will all eventually get back to you with a detailed reply. As any rigger can attest to in the skydiving world, being able to contact the actual manufacturer in those rare occasions, and get a prompt reply, alleviates headache. Even though this is rarely needed in BASE, having them email you back in the same day is nice when desired. With that horse beat to death...

What are you leaning toward at the moment? Are things like 4 vs. 5 upper control lines an issue? Are you looking for an aspect ratio above or below 2:1? What kind of landing areas will you be jumping into? I think these sort of questions might be more important than justifying an extra $600. While all manufacturers will do the trick nicely, and with practice you can put any of the dedicated canopies anywhere, there are small differences that make these canopies vary different once they are flying.

I have an Apex DP w/ a fox. I like it.
I have an asylum perigee pro w/ a blackjack. I like it.
I have an asylum perigee 2 w/ an ace. I like it.
I have a bad seed rig/canopy. I like it.

I have jumped a gargoyle w/ a troll. I liked it.
I have jumped a summit with a flik. I liked it.

Maybe I'm easy to please but I think that almost all the current gear is pretty nice and what it boils down to is the service that the company can give you. I would order apex gear over asylum simply because I don't want to wait a year for a container.

I'm a dealer for more or less all the manufacturers at this point.

If you're looking for good customer service, Consolidated Rigging has the best in the industry, but they only make canopies (not full systems).

Bad Seed has extremely fast delivery times and very responsive customer service, and they make full systems that are, at this point, the least expensive on the market.

Honestly, in the last 6 months, I've seen customer service improve dramatically across the board. Morpheus has been able to deliver several rigs for me in 7 weeks, and today I called Asylum and had the owner answer the phone on the first ring.

I'm not convinced that customer service is a definitive reason for choosing one manufacturer over another at this point.

I am. I was almost driven to the asylum waiting for 4+ MONTHS to receive a simple pilot chute. I know others who have been waiting more than one year for gear they have ALREADY PAID FOR. So customer service is a great concern to anyone who doesn't already have a plethora of rigs to choose from.

You're not an average jumper, Tom. And you're certainly not a first-rig buying jumper. I reckon you get slightly different treatment than many others.

That's possible. But I'm ordering rigs on behalf of people who are mostly (but not always) first time buyers. Perhaps that's a good argument for using a dealer who has an ongoing relationship with the manufacturer, but I know that's not always a possibility for every jumper.

With some manufacturers there can be quite a long wait, but if you're aware of the lead time, I can't really say that's bad customer service--it's just a long lead time.

FWIW, when I have a student order a rig, I generally send them home with one of mine to use while they wait for theirs to be built, so they aren't losing currency while they wait.

OuttaBounZ,

I'll start off by apologizing; sarcasm often translates poorly on internet forums and we thought you were accusing us of what we consider a moral breach. We couldn't think of any reason why you'd be upset with us so this caught us somewhat off guard. Obviously we want to immediately address any potential accusations of gear sales to unqualified buyers. That's one of Pete's major points and everyone gets vetted. I now realize you were making a joke directed at someone you know.

To ski00nut:

We do official warranty work on behalf of Atair and AdrenalinBASE in addition to distributing the equipment, so you've got a domestic company shop in California.

We understand that everyone has a host of different reasons for choosing everything in life from toothpaste to table dances. The only points we wanted to make are that:

1) We sell this gear because it's good and we can stand behind it

and

2) We don't sell to non-vetted customers.

OuttaBounZ, I'm sorry we didn't catch your joke on the first pass. Usually we're pretty good at that kind of thing. Regardless, there are no hard feelings on our part.

P+

It wasn't meant as a joke as much as it was meant to inquire about how you do business. Many of the companies these days, even the ones I support, have sold gear to people who should probably rethink their decision to advance so fast. This came up recently in a discussion I had with someone who was offended when I told him I'm in no way an instructor and that he needs to not start by buying gear. So I posted my thoughts in the form of a question which led to me feeling the need to defend my statement.

As for the buy American comment, that was directed toward my fellow patriot who started the thread, and less at those selling or supporting gear made else where...more of a joke than anything else.

To the OP: Being that you are an experienced jumper, and that each canopy will have small differences, rather than thinking about the justifiable differences in cost, look at the small differences and determine which holds value in regards to your peace of mind. Some like the flat turns that come effortlessly with lower aspect ratio canopies, same with 4 upper control lines as opposed to 5. Some like the increased glide and durability of a ZP nose. 3 vs 4 vs no vents might come into play. Think about the differences in trim and ask what people like about how their canopy flies compared to others they have jumped. Whatever you buy will have a good resale, and if all goes well it will most likely not be the last canopy you buy. Parachutes Plus is pretty local to you if I remember right (one state away), and being that they are so active online it could possibly be a good place to get your gear since you are unsure about what direction to go. Anyway, I'm to new to be offering anything that might be construed as advice so I'll leave this thread alone now. I'd hate to be the fuel for online flaming. Especially since Al Gore only created the internet for porn and funny pictures.

Sweet. Thanks everyone for the advice.

We understand that everyone has a host of different reasons
for choosing everything in life from toothpaste to table dances.

Thank you for the morning laugh!!

Yes, totally correct, and in agreement with
all economic theory, even IF their reasons
are arbitrary, capricious, and ill informed.

Please note: general commentary about US
Consumers... not just our nylon purchases.

For those wondering why apex canopies cost more...I got a related reply from Todd in an email that hints at an answer. I thought I would post it here in case anyone else can use this information.





So, it seems the valves are more efficient and difficult to fabricate. I think that might be at least in part, one reason why the canopies cost more.


My other guess, is that, for example, a BlackJack is fabricated by PD. Outsourcing may allow cheaper end user costs.... Just a guess.

Hey ski00nut

That’s a really informative piece by Todd. It sheds some light onto his current lineup and product development history as well as presenting some sound jumping theory. It has a few errors, however, and seeing as how we are reps and distributors for both Atair and Consolidated Rigging, I feel I should address them.

Atair canopies are available with 1, 3, or 5 cell Mono-Directional Valves (MDV). These are available on the Ultralight (UL) and F111 Troll. The OSP comes standard with 5 enlarged MDV. Atair also offers the option of a ZP leading edge (as featured on the Trango2 and OSP) on all Trolls.

The Ace is not available with Pressure Activated and Controlled (PAC) valves. An Ace with PAC valves is called a Blackjack. Both are available with the Composite Upper Surface (CUS), in which the leading 30 percent of the top skin is made of ZP.

Atair manufactures primarily BASE canopies; don’t confuse Atair of Slovenia (the original Atair) with any other Atair. The only thing Stane Kranj (the owner of Atair) works on is BASE canopy design. While the company also manufactures two skydiving canopies, nearly all of their work comes from BASE orders. Consolidated Rigging does not design, manufacture, or sell any type of skydiving canopy. The canopies are built in a shared facility that also makes skydiving canopies, but Adam Filippino, an aeronautical engineer and early BASE jumper, did all design work.

Todd has done some really cool stuff and we’d never say that his products are unsafe or inferior; they are not. Many people are very satisfied with his products. We think that Adam, Stane, and Jean-Noel are also making some really cool stuff. We are here to help people get that stuff.

If anyone has any questions about any of the gear we sell, our prices, or delivery times, feel free to contact us at any time.

That cannot be true.

The _unvented_ version of the Flik costs more than the (4 vents) Blackjack.

If it's the valve construction that drives the cost up, the unvented version would cost around the same as the other manufacturers unvented versions. It doesn't--it's substantially more expensive.

Cost Before Options - No Vents (USA prices)
Unvented Se7en 260: $1660
Unvented Troll 245: $1675
Unvented Ace 260: $1459
Unvented Mayhem 260: $1400
Unvented Flik 266: $1800

Average Price: $1598.80
Average Price (except Flik): $1548.40

The unvented Flik with no options is still the most expensive basic canopy on the market.

With no options, it costs $400 more than the cheapest canopy, $201.20 more than the average, and $251.50 more than the average of all other canopies.

Weird. I just noticed that if you buy a Troll 245 from Morpheus, the cost is $1675, but if you buy it from ParachutesPlus the cost is $1799 (basically the same as the FLik).

I wonder if the Morpheus price list is out of date?

Pete, how long ago did you post the new price list? Do you know if the prices through Morpheus have also gone up?


At any rate, that somewhat changes the calculation above, obviously.

I really don't wanna be the one to shit on peoples beliefs but here we fucking go anyways.

I really, really do not like the direction that Apex BASE has taken in recent years. It seems to me that they are really only focused on one thing, marketing their cheaply built gear. Anyone who knows anything at all about any type of parachute/harness construction could see the short cuts Apex takes in their manufacturing process. Now I'm not saying that it won't do the job or that it is any less reliable. What I am saying is that it cannot compare to the quality of other manufacturers. And now they are the most expensive manufacturer on the market. Why? Certainly not because they took any extra time to build the highest quality gear on the market. Maybe their budget has been wasted on making youtube videos and buying "Team Jerseys" and all the other cool marketing tricks they have been employing of late.

Of course the Apex groupies are going to cry out against this but that is because most jumpers these days have no fucking clue what they are talking about. Most jumpers say stupid shit like:


Who gives a fuck if Apex offers more options, especially when half of them are bogus and the other half were left to customers to field test.
Why would you have to pay more for a 30% ZP nose over a 15% ZP nose? More cost in parts? Doubt it. Harder to manufacture? No. Then why charge more for what is essentially the same fucking construction? And that doesn’t even take into account the fact that the extra ZP will have absolutely no more effect than the 15% ZP nose. Anyone that paid for the 30%ZP nose just got scammed.
They also brag about their variable vent configurations as a selling point. But the sad truth is that there is no possible way for Apex to have satisfactorily tested every configuration on every canopy in every size for a sustained period of time. Guess what, this makes the consumer the test dummy. If you doubt me than speak to the guys who had 400lb lines fail on them. Lines that other manufacturers have refused to use long before there was even a fatality related to their use.
Magnetic bridle retainer? You may as well just go and jerk off. $45 for a carry with you static line? It’s a rapid link and a piece of Dacron! Who is pricing this shit because it seems to me that they are now preying on the un-educated.

So why would anyone pay a higher basic price just for the ability to pay even more ridiculous prices for bogus options? I for one will stick with the manufacturer that builds quality gear the way it should be built with standard features that Apex would consider to be a chargeable “option”.

I would also be skeptical of any advice given by someone who starts an account for the means of actively promoting their own company AKA Parachutes Plus. No offence intended but your posts repeatedly reveal your financial motivation.

That’s my rant. Let the shit storm begin. And yes that is exactly why I am posting extra anonymously.

Buying from an American dealer doesn't constitute "Buyin American". Just saying.


This should have defined the fact that you are not "Buying American". Again, just saying. No offence intended.

Yeah right. Custom built to the cookie cutter template that they have been using for the last decade.

Bullshit! They wanted more vents and so made them smaller to compensate for the additional vent.

The Ace is not a vented canopy.

Firstly I call bullshit on this. I do not believe that Atairs MDV restricts inward airflow in any way. Secondly the MDV is far superior to an Apex vent in regards to closing the valve to prevent back flow out of the valve.

Firstly I think this is bullshit but I will concede my error if anyone can show me a skydiving canopy that CR have designed and built. Secondly, Basic Research borrowed the idea for vents from the skydiving industry in the first place. How then can they now claim supreme ownership of the idea?

Looks the same to me.

I am rather skeptical of this too and believe it to be nothing more than a sales pitch.

This is an extremely uneducated assumption, though not at all your fault. This one reason that I am extremely displeased by Apex's actions of late. It seems to me that they would rather perpetuate mis-information to sell their equipment, than to simply set the record straight and allow the customer to choose.

Again this is a mis-informed assumption. I gaurantee that production time in the PD factory is not a cheap commodity.

So in short, that long winded email was nothing but trash and lies. Im sure you felt very well educated and up to speed after reading though.

As far as I am aware Adam and Stane are the only manufacturers who actually have an Aeronautical Engineering education/career.

That depends on if you count Robi Pecnik as a "manufacturer" or not.

Anonymous,

Just to clarify, we represent ourselves as a company, not as individuals. I hope that everyone understands that we are biased and do want people to buy from us. The two of us together have 40 years BASE experience and we're not in the business of selling snake oil. We stand behind our products and sell them because we think they're great. We encourage potential buyers to educate themselves before buying, however, and keep in mind that many individual users on here are also biased and/or financially motivated. The reason we chose a username that corresponds with the business name is so that there is no confusion: we are Parachutes Plus and we sell AdrenalinBASE, Atair, and CR gear.

We hope everyone is having fun out there, regardless of who makes their nylon.

P+

tom,
I bought a new set up end of august, and those prices from morpheus were correct at that time.

all of this psychobabble is crazy.........

why not just buy what works for you. if youre asking questions about what to buy, either borrow gear from a friend or go take toms course, hes got a fucking plethora of different canopies.........

Earlier I posted about checking into used gear. You could try several different manufactured canopies and rigs. Then you could compare them and get what you want new...I know a guy who did the same as you are planning. Nothing wrong with getting gear now, new or used. Just don't let it temp you into killing yourself to early.

On the contrary, I am as confused as ever.

I am as confused as ever.

All standard modern BASE gear is fine!
If price is a concern, simply buy used.
Once you know more then you will be
able to pick your own favorite flavor.

For example, there is no one answer
to the question: what is the best gun?

Glock is not the best value but popular.
I like sawed off shotguns, because they
are cheap, very powerful, and require
less range time to stay current, etc.

However, I am not mad at people who
over pay for a trendy weapon, or the
idiots who pay $200+ for sneakers.

whats wrong with $200 sneakers?

Apex stands on more experience than any manufacturer in BASE. They have manufactured more BASE specific gear than any other company. They have invested more money and time into R&D than any other manufacturer. JP and Marta have taught more students than all other FJC’s combined…These are not opinions, they are facts. Their message is simple, they want the safe advancement of BASE. I have been a BASE Jumper since 2004 but made my first jumps from Greenie in ’97, Skydiving since ’91, so I have been around for a little bit.

I have to call bullshit on Anonymous1010, with the exception of the ACE not having vents.

1st, their gear / canopies continue to go through rigorous R&D and as technology changes and advancements can be made, they adjust accordingly, release updated designs and new products that ultimately are superior to past product releases. “Cheaply built” are your arguments, not Apex gear.

2nd, their QC/QA standards are rigorous as hell. Anyone who knows Jo Jo (Handles QC / QA) knows this is an absolute fact as that skinny bastard won the “Anal Retentive German of the Year” award. To say that they shortcut construction is an insult to Jo Jo, who could arguably be the strictest of master riggers on the fucking planet.

3rd, The team jerseys? Really, that is your argument for higher prices? The couple hundred dollar investment into team jerseys? Really?’

4th, The Youtube videos are meant to educate about their gear and BASE in general. I would presume that you would want education about these things…or, maybe “you” would if you had thought of them.

5th, I have to shake my head at your ZP argument and just digress.

6th, Todd does not give sales pitches. Todd informs and educates. Of course he wants you to buy his gear, but if you do not, he still talks to you at length to help educate you. Clearly, you do not know Todd at all. Perpetuating accurate information is what they do. If there is one dead to rights honest person that I have met in my life and would go to the mat for, it is Todd.

7th, It seems that you have a deep seeded hatred for Apex. I jump Apex gear, but I also have owned / jumped Morpheus, CR (Yes, my first jumps from Greenie were on a Mojo back in the day), Asylum (Borrowed my buddies Ace & BJ for a handful of jumps slider up and down and really liked both of them), and have a couple of Jumps on the troll and OSP (I thought they performed very well and would even consider buying). I personally like my Fox better than any canopy that I have jumped, hands down, including my Flik. All of the gear that I have jumped is from reputable manufacturers whom I respect and think that they have great gear. I think slamming a manufacturer instead of sticking with addressing points shows you as being completely full of shit.

8th, I am sorry, but their customer service exceeds all others in the industry. Not to say that the others are bad, merely not on par with Apex.

9th, If you do not want to pay for the magnetic bridal retainer or the carry with you static line, then don’t buy them…Simple as that. For me to go to the drop zone where I have access to sewing machines and make my own is a waste of my time. That $45 for the take away represents 15 minutes of my hourly rate. I would rather pay the $45, take that 15 minutes and jerk off (to use your vernacular) a couple of times, than sit at a sewing machine.

10th, Anyone in the parachute industry knows that the margins are shit on gear and why anyone would want to manufacture for a tiny market with unbelievably limited growth is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is for the love of the sport. I certainly do not see anyone at Apex driving a Ferrari or living in a mansion. However, I do see them dumping a fuck ton of money and time into Research & Development, QC/QA, new product designs, building a better infrastructure, creating good jobs for their employees, and pushing for the safe advancement of the sport. Maybe these could be the reasons for the higher prices? And to Anonymous1010, I do know what the fuck I am talking about with regards to parachute manufacturing.

Ski00nut, Anonymous is full of shit. Whomever you choose, do your research, listen to those who have valid information to offer and ignore those that are douchebags (there are a lot of them in BASE), educate the shit out of yourself and take it slow. Be safe.

Thanks for taking the time to reply ;]

So you are saying that the Troll has an in-effecient vent design? And that that is the reason it needed 5 vents?
Or are you saying that Consolidated Rigging and BaseTroll rely on Skydiving sales?
Or are you saying that Apex's valve design takes longer to manufacture than the MDV?
Or are you saying that Apex didn't back flip on the topic of centre cell venting?
Please point out where I was speaking bullshit on any of Todds comments that I addressed for the OP.

You can have the most rigorous QC on the planet but that will only up hold the poor design that they use. I have spoken personally with both Todd and Jimmy regarding several aspect of their designs that I do not like. Guess what their answer was. It is easier to build that way. Not better just plain easier.

Educating people with flawed material for your own financial profit is not cool.

It's not my argument it's called aerodynamics. The first 10% of a zp top skin has the most beneficial effect. I bet you wouldn't notice the difference between a 15% ZP nose and a 30% ZP nose and yet Apex took it upon them selves to charge people extra for it.

Then please explain how there was no accurate information in the email he sent to ski00nut?

Again, then why did he send an email to ski00nut full of incorrect information? Information that attempted to make MDV venting sound inferior.

Nope. Just don't appreciate them perpetuating mis-information. For the record I think that they make some of the nicest pilot chutes out there.

You are right that they are definitely better than some. On par with others though.

I didn't ask if it was worth your time. I asked who decided it was cool to charge $45 for $2 in material and 5 minutes of work. The price seems a little inflated to me. And that doesn't even take into account that carry with you static lines are a joke.

They must be wasting it then seeing as their competitors are the only ones releasing new canopies. Canopies that arguably out fly anything from Apex.

Then you couldn't honestly say that Apex is the same quality as other gear on the market. Again I will re-iterate that I did not say it was un-safe in any way. Just not as high quality as other manufacturers.

Again I would like you to point out where I am factually wrong in what I addressed in regards to the OP. All you have done is take offence to me saying that Apex gear is of cheaper quality than other manufacturers. Please address how you think I am wrong in respect to the points I addressed about Todd replying to the OP with totally incorrect information therefore mis-educating somebody that is now going to go out and spread that incorrect information.

Well at least we can all agree on one thing; an ACE has no vents!

I've got a buddy who's installing vents in one of his Aces. So this isn't entirely true anymore.

For the record, he's only doing it to make sure BASE jumpers can't agree on anything...

~ Chris

I think I have to disagree with your facts.

Do you have a total, accurate count of all the students who've ever taken a FJC? And then a total, accurate count of all the students taught by that Apex BASE (which is a different company from the Apex BASE that manufactures the gear)?

I very much doubt you actually have numbers to back up your "facts" but if you do, I'd love to see them.

While we're at it, can you share your numbers on the total number of BASE specific canopies, container and accessories you have, that generated your facts on those? I'm prepared to be very impressed that you have accurate numbers from Atair, Adrenalin, Morpheus and Asylum--and that's no longer a complete list of manufacturers.


I'm not saying your wrong...I'm just saying that I really doubt anyone has the numbers (and answers) you're asserting as fact.

I don’t see where Todd writes about Troll vents. Todd does write that “When we tested a similar design we did not like the way the inflowing air was restricted.” Have you done any testing on BASE equipment?


Consolidated Rigging doesn’t make parachutes. Their design is produced by PD in Honduras. Atair sells two skydiving parachutes. I have no idea how many of them they sell.


I’m not the one pretending to understand how long it takes to build a BASE parachute. Have you worked in parachute manufacturing?


Back flip? Apex has been leading the sport in innovation since back in the BR days. Did every manufacturer back flip on Velcro closed containers when the industry moved to pin closed?


When I toured the Apex factory I didn’t see any canopy templates. They showed me a computer aided hot-knife that ran off CAD software.


Well, I do not know why Todd said it is easier, but it is probably because if you are as recalcitrant in person as you are on the web, he realized that no answer would quell your arrogance and argumentative personality. But I am only speculating. Stop saying things that you cannot support.


What flawed material?



So then you haven’t jumped a canopy with a 30% ZP leading edge and compared it to one with a 15% leading edge? Apex BASE only does BASE jumping. You are clearly someone who considers themselves the biggest of “big deals” but it is obvious your bark far exceeds your knowledge. I suggest calling Todd and having him send you the data from the fluid dynamics testing that they paid to have done. He showed the data to me when I did the tour. He will probably show it to you. However, I suspect he will never get that call from you.


Ok. Please see below.


Accurate


Accurate


I didn’t think they did and I haven’t seen any being jumped


I have no way to confirm or deny this statement, but then again, you have no support to the contrary.


Accurate


Are you saying that you were at the testing of Todd’s design and the airflow wasn’t restricted? If that is the case, then I will stop right here.


We should probably ask Stane why the Troll has more vents


We all know he meant BJ. The BJ and Ace are the same airfoil the BJ just has vents use a much closer vent design but they hinge their cover/valve at the front of the vent, but none-the-less...Accurate


Accurate


I have no way to confirm or deny this statement but neither do you


I have no way to confirm or deny this statement but again, neither do you


The advent of canopy venting for BASE application was showcased at BD by Consolidated Rigging and Basic Research. Both companies claimed to have invented the technology. You will probably find the center of a tootsie pop before the accurate answer to this.


Accurate


Accurate


It sounds like you are a little sensitive when it comes to the MDV system. I can relate. I used to get the same way when my friends talked about me masturbating… but then I graduated junior high.


I still fail to see your point or any examples / support.


I’m sure each customers experience differs. In my experience, no one else even comes close.


If you’re asking if it’s cool if a company makes a profit, then my answer is yes. For all the bullshit you spout, I see no evidence to back it up. I see Apex supporting events, providing great customer service, engaging in research and development, and sharing their results for all to benefit. What are you doing again other than spouting off at the mouth with absolutely no support of what you say just to slam a manufacturer for whom you obviously have a grudge? I use the carry with so I am not leaving break cord all over our A's. But, I like jokes, so I guess that makes sense.


I was a high performance canopy pilot when I skydived a lot, a paragliding pilot, a speed-wing pilot, and I’ve flown just about every BASE canopy on the market. I’ll admit that there are some minor differences between models. However, even the manufacturers will tell you that there are more similarities than differences. As far as I know, none of the manufacturers have done any sort of competitive data collection on opening forces, glide, forward speed, etc. Do you know of support to the contrary? I would love to see your data. I'll even buy the beers while you share it with me.


I read what you wrote and understood what you meant. I just don’t see it. In my opinion, Apex and Morpheus have the highest manufacturing standards in the industry.


I am pretty sure that the misinformation is coming from you. I am not the one slamming other manufacturers with absolutely no basis for doing so. As I stated, with the gear I jumped from them, I liked them, however, I prefer Apex. If you came on here slamming Morpheus, I would tell you your just as full of shit, as I would if you slammed Marty.

If you wish to debate it further, meet me at Apex at your convenience and all of your misinformation can easily be dispelled. I’d even be will to set up a live video feed so the rest of the BASE board can watch. (Disclaimer: Apex may not allow this, but I am game)

Short of that, I am done with you. Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who.

Todd said: "The way I understand it, the troll has 5 vents, they don’t offer a variable configuration. Variable Vtec does create its share of production issues, it’s not a cookie cutter assembly line, it’s custom built. Their vents are much smaller and their cover is a completely different design. When we tested a similar design we did not like the way the inflowing air was restricted. So they need to have more vents."

If he isn't talking about MDV then what else is he talking about in this statement then? Pretty much reads "we tested their design, it was less efficient, and that's why they need more vents".
I will again take the time to point out that Stane wanted 5 vents and so designed the sizes accordingly. Todds statement is mis-leading here.



So do you support Todd's bogus claim that his competitors rely on skydiving sales or not?


And when questioned about 4/7 vs 5/7 venting Todd gave me a big ole speach on why center cell venting was a bad idea. Now that they sell 3/7 venting all of a sudden it is a great idea to vent the center cell.
You can't seriously be that stupid. Do you not consider a CAD program a template? You also just reminded me of the time Todd tried to convince me that their hot knife table was the most sophisticated thing on the planet, even better than the laser tables PD uses.


Because that is the way Apex gear has been designed. They use the construction technique that is the easiest and fastest method. Not the best method or neatest method just the fastest. There are a number of places in their equipment where this is evident and beyond argument.

Okay my bad. It was a poor blanket statement. That doesn't alter the fact that he still mis-lead the OP on a number of issues.

There are 4 and 5 vent Trolls in existence. So not accurate.


You just admitted to receiving the Apex tour and viewing their CAD controlled hot knife but refuse to admit that they have a computer template for all the vents they build?

I've spoken to Stane at length about this exact topic. He dispelled a number of myths that Todd would have people believe.

So your version of accurate is to reference incorrect products in your argument?

Firstly, saying that his competitors main business is skydiving canopies is false. Secondly, claiming that they never changed the design or application of the vents is also false.

Some information is accurate for sure. The reason I claimed this to be a sales pitch is due to Todds own words on repeated ocassions saying that center cell venting is a bad idea blah blah blah. Now that Apex offer center cell venting guess who has changed their tune.

Not at all. It is simply the venting that was previously referenced.

Then open your eyes.

No that is not what I asked. I asked if you thought it was cool for a company to gouge somebody $45 for $2 in material and 5 minutes of work. Nice way to avoid the question though.


Then maybe you should look a little closer. And when it comes to building harnesses Apex couldn't hold a candle to Morpheus.

Your blind loyalty to Apex already made that evident.
Apex gear is built with speed and production times in mind. This is an undeniable fact. I will again re-iterate that this does not mean that it is any less safe but it is definitely not of the same quality as other manufacturers. You can support Apex all day long and it isn't going to change the build quality of their gear.
Todd also mis-led the OP on a number of topics. Deny that all you want but it is true.
As for getting the answers to the questions I have about Apex gear. I have tried, on a number of occasions, with a variety of Apex names, and every time it turned into a long winded off topic speech about why the way Apex does things is the best model. Pretty much like your last rant.

Specific examples? Inquiring minds want to know.


Which are?

Please post pictures of these design issues - I'm curious to know what you're talking about!

So lets just be clear that I don't think these issues extend beyond quality. Their gear is obviously safe and functional. I just do not think it is of the same build quality as other gear available.
Tops of the risers are pretty evident. You will notice that they simply hot knife the webbing, fold it over and zig zag it down leaving the hot knifed edge exposed. Other manufacturers take the time to fold the seared edge under again before stitching. This does mean that it is a lot thicker and so a different stitch pattern needs to be used. Stronger no, neater very much so. Why do they do it this way? Todds exact answer was "It is easier to teach the employees and is much faster to assemble".
Tail pockets on Apex canopies should be re-named "Several Inches from the Tail Pockets". Their tail pockets are not located at the tail seam like other manufacturers but several inches up from it. When asked why Jimmy replied that "It is easier to assemble that way". When questioned about the likelyhood of this increasing the chances of line burn Jimmy replied "That is why we have an additional layer of F1-11 surrounding the Tail Pocket to minimize the effect in this event". So they accept that it may increase the chance of line burn but choose an easier way to remedy that. Again is it functional? Yes. Is it the best way to build it? I don't believe so. Why do they do it then? Production time.
There are plenty more examples but those two should be clearly recognizable. In both examples I was told word for word by an Apex representative that this is the easiest way for them to assemble. Again this does not mean any less functional just not the same quality you would get from other manufacturers. And now they are apparently some of the most expensive items on the market.

Edit: Spelling.

 While we are in this shit storm...

I gotta say, in some statements, I agree with Anonymous1010. Over the years, the Apex gear has gone down in quality and has gone up in price. 4 years ago a complete Apex BASE rig cost me $2675.00 and now it is $3985.00 for the exact same set up. A $1300 difference
Seems like nowadays most all of the price increases are blamed on the gas prices, but how come the gas cost literally twice as much where the other BASE gear manufacturers are located?
Maybe cheaper labor? Not unless it is made in China, India or maybe Pakistan, which we know it is not.
When ordering from Atair you can choose as many different colors for your canopy as you want with no increase in price, but with Apex you have to pay extra for it. Why? I understand, it’s a hustle to change different color fabric rolls when cutting out a template, but Atair has to do the same inconvenient steps. They don’t charge extra for it.
Not to mention, Apex charges you a $1,50 for a sticker. Seriously? I can totally see paying for a t-shirt, but a sticker? How can the $3985.00 not cover the price of a promotional sticker?!

Don’t get me wrong, I fucking love my Flik. It’s just that my latest one looked sad coming out of the box. Some loose threads hanging off, slightly wavy stitching in a couple of places, fabric bunched up a little in one spot, the same logo that shows wear after 40 jumps/packjobs. Nothing life threatening, but still… Maybe the “Anal Retentive German” had a day off when this was ‘inspected’ and shipped to me. I’m not even comparing it to the quality of the other manufacturers, I’m comparing it to the quality of my first Flik. Made me think that maybe lately it’s “quantity” over “quality”.

In discussion with other jumpers, accurate PC sizing seems to be another quality issue. The first time I measured one, was because it didn’t even look like the size it was supposed to be and since then, I’ve measured some just out of curiosity. More than once, the actual size was an inch or so smaller or larger than what it was supposed to be. Same thing – not life threatening, but talk about attention to details. Why can’t someone take a ruler and simply measure it once it comes out of production and before it gets shipped out?

I happened to be there, when a friend of mine was taking out of the box his freshly received Atair hottie. Talk about a quality made canopy. The perfect stitching, the logo that looked very durable, they even put it in a storing bag made out of the canopy-color-matching F-111. I’m not going to lie, I got a boner Not to mention Atair promised to make it in 6o days and it was sitting at his doorstep on the day #61. Which is not always the case with Apex. 4 friends of mine had their canopy/rig arrive way after the due date. Seems like when you have a well-established production line, you should be able to stick to the due date you set yourself.
I also was just recently jumping a borrowed Seven. Another extremely well made canopy. Enjoyed immensely handling that girl Great job, Asylum!

The thing is, as I already said, I love my Flik and don’t want to jump anything else. It’s perfect for me and the places where I jump. Flik and Fox are both fucking amazing!! Also, I wouldn’t trade my DP container for anything in the world. In my personal opinion it is the best container on the market by far! Todd, Steve, Jimmy and Marta are super rad and ridiculously awesome people ,I love them to death, but it’s not about them. Especially, Jimmy and Marta, since they have nothing to do with the manufacturing of Apex gear, they haven’t been making any since they merged with Basic Research in 2004; all they do is FBJ courses and represent Apex at BASE events. The bottom line is - I would buy another Apex rig in a heartbeat. I’m willing to overlook the manufacturing ‘shortcuts’ because their designs are awesome. I just feel that when I purchase the most expensive rig on the market, it should look it, and if it doesn’t – then maybe it should cost slightly less.

P.S. As far as “BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!” goes. Up to this date, all of the BASE canopies that have failed, were designed and made by American manufacturers. Something to think about

I am very pleased that I got such a vigorous discussion to my original questions. Thanks everyone for their input.

I have decided to go with an Asylum/Blackjack setup. The basic reason is that I cannot justify the higher Apex price. Since i am new to the sport and do not have any personal preferences on the tiny differences, it is not logical to pay more than I have to for one brand over another.

I chose Asylum over other brands because of several comments from many different people attesting to their quality. That combined with a competitive price = the right one for me.


I am, however, having trouble deciding between the 310 size and the 280 size. My weight naked ranges from 175-190 depending on the season. The 280 would put me at almost 0.8 on my heaviest day of the year. The 310 would put me below .65 on my lightest day.
They need a 290 option!

Thoughts?

What are the landing areas in your area like?

And what is your typical landing elevation going to be?


If you are regularly jumping at altitude, or you have to land in places like Australia or the PNW in the US, I'd go with the 310.

Otherwise, I'd go with the 280.



> They need a 290 option!

Don't stress on the numbers.

I own a canopy that says "290" on the label and is the same size as another canopy I own that says "310" on the label. When you lay the canopies on top of each other, the "310" is about one inch longer and the "290" is about two inches wider. No functional difference.

Because size measurements vary between manufacturers, it's best to think of them as "model names" rather than precise measurements.

Im confused on the Asylum website a Blackjack 310 is $1988 and on the Apex page a 315 FLik and the Fox are $2000, I thought one of the problems was cost, or are these canopies not comparable?

You forgot to add vents to the Apexprice?

The Apex prices are all "base cost" before "options" like vents.

The Backjack cost includes the vents.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to add $450 (for the 4 vents) to the Flik, so the true price comparison is $1988 v. $2450.

yep im with it now

And the ZP $250.

And $200 on the CR canopies. So the ZP option costs 25% more on the Apex canopy. Which is also how much difference there is in the canopy--right at 25%.

Re: [TomAiello]

The Apex prices are all "base cost" before "options" like vents.

The Backjack cost includes the vents.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to add $450 (for the 4 vents) to the Flik, so the true price comparison is $1988 v. $2450.

280 Black-Jack with ZP foreskin, black/red
dacron lines, and a fine mesh slider works
out to be $2173 plus shipping & 15+ weeks
of wating time, just for apples to apples...

I'm not sure how adding options to the cost of the Blackjack but not to the cost of the Flik makes it an "apple to apples" comparison. Can you explain why you're thinking that?

Wouldn't "apples to apples" cost mean that you are buying a ZP foreskin Flik to compare it to? Which means you forgot to add another $250 to the cost of the Flik.

The "apples to apples" comparison would also require adding $97 (for the Black lines you added to the other apple) to the cost of the Flik.

Plus, you changed the size in the middle of the comparison, just to make things more confusing. (Dadsy started with prices for the 308/310, rather than the 280).

The actual price comparison for the canopies with the set of options you specified as being apple like would be:

Flik 280: $2697
Flik: 1700
280 size: 200
black lines: 97
Vtec 4/7: 450
Hybrid Top Skin: 250

Blackjack 280: $2173
Blackjack: 1898
Composite Upper Surface: 200
Black Lines: 75


Both manufacturers have occasional stock canopies (I bought a stock Blackjack in this size last week, actually) so if you don't care about colors you may be able to get a canopy very quickly from either (if they have your size in stock).

Delivery times are roughly the same (my last CR canopies came in about 15 weeks and my last Apex canopies came in about 17 weeks).

I typically don't charge shipping, but the costs for shipping when purchased from the manufacturers are pretty similar. My last invoice on a CR canopy shows shipping of $28, and my last invoice on an Apex canopy shows shipping of $30.

Flik 280: $2697

Blackjack 280: $2173


We are in total agreement, my reason for
posting is because several people asked if
I was smoking crack for listing a BJ with all
the options for $2200 OBO - it included the
canopy, shipping, paypal fee, rapide links,
plus a pinch of my good luck, and of course
I expected people to make offers...

Oh, I see.

If you are trying to mimic the "new" package, the manufacturer includes the rapide links, the slider, and the silicon bumpers, as well as the owner's manual, the S/N sheet, the PD card (which the links attach to), a rubber band for the locking stow, a tailgate, and about 6 tailgate rubber bands.

Oh, and a clear plastic bag and a 1 foot cube cardboard box.

And you would have to add a 5th upper control line to the flik because it comes standard with 4.

BadSeedBASE
Mayhem 280 with standard 5 UCL, 5 vents, 1/3 ZP
$2140

It's easier for people to compare if you make an "apples to apples" comparison, with the same set of options.

5 UCL is standard on the Ace and Mayhem (which is logical since they are the same canopy design), and a no cost option on the Flik, so no need to list that:

Flik 280: $2697
Flik: 1700
280 size: 200
black lines: 97
Vtec 4/7: 450
Hybrid Top Skin: 250

Blackjack 280: $2173
Blackjack: 1898
Composite Upper Surface: 200
Black Lines: 75

Mayhem 280: $2075
Mayhem: 1295
280 size: 230
4/7 vents: 350
Partial ZP topskin: 200

The major cost difference between the Blackjack and the Mayhem appears to be that there is no charge for the black lines on the Mayhem.

I specifically stated that you are smoking crack because you were asking $2200 for a USED canopy with a PATCH and some other minor wear.

On a topic of Apex - their prices have shot through the roof at an alarming pace. And no, I am not suggesting all other manufacturers should follow suit. Vote with your money !

The canopy finally sold for $1725 BUT
the buyer is covering the paypal fee,
the shipping cost, and the insurance.

Best offer I had was $1800 cash but
that was from a broke jumper with a
good heart but unreliable $ and you
know about the old bird in the hand.

Good economic advice regarding:
V o t i n g w i t h y o u r D o l l a r s

Price, Selection, Variety, Service, etc.
tend to be better when consumed by
a free and educated consumer base.

Of course that is without government
intervention in to the market place,
in which case you end up paying $15
to an Arab for a beer in the desert...