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Outdoor gear companies are trying to get National Monument status for parts of Moab that will surely have a negative impact on BASE jumping in these areas. I believe the same laws that apply to National Parks will apply to National Monuments and "Aerial Delivery" of any kind will be illegal.

Here's the article:

http://www.ksl.com/...148&sid=22957409

who will be enforcing these rules? I am not VERY familiar with the area but my time there has left impression on me that there is an awful lot of land and very few people.

Don't worry. Obama passionately hates this country and will do nothing to protect any part of it.

Walt

I can assure you from personal experience that National Monuments are part of the National Park system and are administered by NPS LE rangers. BASE jumping is punishable under the air delivery laws, and you may be charged for hiking in a closed area and disturbing wildlife, depending on where you exit and land.

Sux. What companies are doing it? A shit-ton of letter writing and product boycotting may be in order.

That's not necessarily true. Some are administered by BLM which means that BASE would be legal:

I'll repost what I put on facebook:

So obviously we have some serious interest stirring in a lot of our favorite areas to BASE jump. One side is "environmentalists" and the other is mineral/energy companies wanting to drill.

What major "environmentalists" and "pro recreation" people are gunning for is to protect and expand the Canyonlands national park into what is called a national monument. This term is very vague and could mean a variety of things. What is important to us as BASE jumpers will be who manages this national monument. We have several options:

One could be managed by BLM in which it would probably not change any legality on what it is now. This is likely a good option and best for BASE.

Another could be BLM management co-managed by NPS. This would probably mean problems and white lines that if not properly defined at the conception of this national monument could prove to be problematic for BASE in the regions covered (mineral bottom, dirty devil river, various other random cliffs)

We could also see it managed by wilderness/scientific fields (highly doubtful) which would mean legal unless otherwise specifically noted.

I personally couldn't see anything legislative carrying NPS laws over to national monuments UNLESS they were managed by them specifically.

If NPS was to take over the operation we would need to have a representative of the community in good standing, someone like Mario (given they are up to the task) who can get our support behind him. If we all petition and write competent letters we can have a foot in the door when it comes to the statute forming. We would also need to get the major proponents of this (Peter Metcalf) to specifically grant BASE jumping rights in the areas, which may also require specific constraints.

Another thing to consider is this has been going on a long time. We may not see any change but we should remain educated and prepared to organize in this community in case anything starts moving too quickly.

My major complaint to making this a national spotlight is the amount of people it will bring in. I am for the land being protected from exploitation of its minerals/energy, however I am not for a slew of amenities being provided in the area. Ideally it would be good to see the land stay as it is and refuse further development. Let's face it, people suck and the less people we have in the areas the better. This means keeping the average joe campers away by not promoting it as a national highlight. Finding the balance between protection and preservation as is will be a difficult line to walk. I think that is what we should strive for as a community.

If anyone would like to contact me on organizing and promoting discussion about this potential issue I would be happy to hear from you at:

mitch.potter.skis@gmail.com

interesting that he only real recreational activity shown in the video was hang gliding which if these companies get what they want would be one of the sports that gets outlawed.

i get that the companies are trying to preserve the land from the big bad mining and industry companies but they are asking Dracula to watch the blood bank. this is counter productive. at least thats my opinion.

OK, that was just Pinnacles that's administered by the NPS and had NPS LE rangers. That much I can attest to.

Really?! Your point is SO far irrelevant it sucks (D)balls.

 I remember when the black canyon was only a "monument", then it quickly became a NP......................... a year or two later, and a few of us were in federal court. Awesome huh ?

Black Diamond Equipment.

I think we'd always thought they were pro-BASE jumping. Guess maybe that was an incorrect assumption.

I bet these companies dont understand what they are doing to BASE. climbing is excepted everywhere.

Black Diamond
Patagonia etc

Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

I'd love to not have a repeat of some lessons we should already have learned. More regulation has never been helpful for BASE access.

I'm not convinced of that.

They're big corporations. Their primary interest is their bottom line. I doubt they care what happens to BASE access because it doesn't generate profits for them.

Dont understand/ Dont care is the same in my book.

Why doesnt someone educate them (US) that we use their equipment and will not in the future.

Its pointless here.Ill go write them instead of here.

The first email address I wrote to was:

Peter Metcalf (CEO): peter@bdel.com

If he bothers to respond, I'll post his response here.

A list of the companies supporting this effort can be found here.

Outdoor Industry Association--Boulder, CO--Frank Hugelmeyer
Black Diamond Equipment--Salt Lake City, UT--Peter Metcalf
Backcountry.com--Park City, UT--Jill Layfield
Eastern Mountain Sports--Peterborough, NH--Will Manzer
Petzl--Clearfield, UT--Roody Rasmussen
Western Spirit Cycling--Moab, UT--Ashley Korenblat
Patagonia--Ventura, CA--Casey Sheahan
PROBAR LLC--Salt Lake City, UT--Jules Lambert
Gregory Mountain Products--Salt Lake City, UT--Billy Kulczycki
Mountain Hardwear--Richmond, CA--Topher Gaylord
Canyon Voyages Adventure-Company--Moab, UT--Don and Denise Oblak
Rim Tours--Moab, UT--Kirstin Peterson
Teva--Goleta, CA--Joel Heath
Moki Mac--Green River, UT--Bob Quist
Moab Cliffs and Canyons--Moab, UT--Brett Sutteer
Jansport--Morland, KS--Skip Yowell
Lost River Clothing—Company--Moab, UT--Dave Knowles
Skinny Tire Events ----Road Cycling in Moab--Moab, UT--Beth Logan
Red Wing Shoes--Red Wing, MN--Bill Sweasy
Canyonlands Field Institute--Moab, UT--Karla VanderZanden
Miguel’s Baja Grill--Moab, UT--Dave Bodner
Camelbak--Petaluma, CA--Sally McCoy
Magpie Adventures--Moab, UT--Maggie Wilson
Ekletica Café--Moab, UT--Julie Fox
Prana--Carlsbad, CA--Theodosakis Beaver, Founder--Scott Kerslake, CEO

Moab Destination—Management--Moab, UT--Fiona Raison
Moab Coffee Roasters--Moab, UT--Jana Wilson
Osprey Packs--Mill Valley, CA--Michael Pfotenhauer
Horny Toad Activewear--Santa Barbara, CA--Kate Larramendy
With Gaia Design--Moab, UT--Kalen Jones
Marmot Mountain, LLC--Rohnert Park, CA--Mark Martin
North Face--San Leandro, CA--Ann Krcik
Nichols Expeditions--Moab, UT--Chuck and Judy Nichols
American Recreation Products--Boulder, CO--Brett Jordan
Nikwax Waterproofing--Seattle, WA--Chas Fisher
White Horse Residential Homes--Moab, UT--Mark Griffith
Bergans USA, LLC--Longmont, CO--Patry Loomis
The Conservation Alliance--Bend, OR--John Sterling
Desert Bistro--Moab, UT--Karl and Michelle Kelley
Aspen Skiing Company--Aspen, CO--Mike Kaplan
Backbone Media LLC--Carbondale, CO--Nate Simmons
High and Wild--Castle Valley, UT--Jay Smith
Adventure Bound River—Expeditions--Grand Junction, CO--Tom Kleinschnitz
Ute Mountaineer--Aspen, CO--Bob and Ruth Wade
Far Out Expeditions--Bluff, UT--Vaughn Hadenfeldt
Loki Outerwear--Grand Junction, CO--Seth Anderson
Whitewater West--Grand Junction, CO--Pete and Monica Atkinson
Bryce Valley KOA—Kampground--Cannonville, UT--John Holland
4 Corners Riversports--Durango, CO--Andy Corra
Pine Needle Mountaineering--Durango, CO--Jeremy Dakan
Imlay Canyon Gear--Mt. Carmel Junction, UT--Nolan Jones
Mountain Waters Rafting--and Adventure Co.--Durango, CO--James Wilkes & Dan Bechtel
Deer Hill Expeditions--Mancos, CO--Douglas and Beverly Capelin
Red Desert Adventures--Springdale, UT--Eric Draper
Kling Mountain Guides--Durango, CO--Josh Kling
Open Sky Wilderness Therapy--Durango, CO--Aaron Fernandes
Wasatch Touring--Salt Lake City, UT--Charlie and Dwight Butler
Verde PR and Consulting--Durango, CO--Kristin Carpenter-Ogden
Venture Snowboards--Silverton, CO--Klemens and Lisa Branner
The Family Outing--Murray, UT--Richard Luke
New Belgium Brewing--Ft. Collins, CO--Jenn Vervier
Neptune Mountaineering--Boulder, CO--Gary Neptune
International Mountain Equipment--Salt Lake City, UT--Scott Carson
La Sportiva--Boulder, CO--Jonathan Lantz
Scarpa--Boulder, CO--Kim Miller
Trio Restaurant Group--Salt Lake City, UT--Mikel Trapp
GTHI--Boulder, CO--Malcolm Daly
The Access Fund--Boulder, CO--Brady Robinson
SOAR Communications--Salt Lake City, UT--Chip Smith
Stohlquist WaterWare--Alamosa, CO--Jim Stolhquist
Outside Adventure Film School--Boulder, CO--Michael Brown
Outdoor Utah Adventure Guide--Salt Lake City, UT--Red Oelerich
Veterans Expeditions--Boulder, CO--Nick Watson
Army Ranger--Fishpond Inc.--Denver, CO--John Land Le Coq
Excalibur Distribution/DMM Inc.--Sandy, UT--Steve Petro
American Alpine Club--Golden, CO--Phil Powers
Stonewear Designs--Louisville, CO--Kitty Bradley
SNOCRU--Sundance, UT--Ed Lewis
NRS--Moscow, Idaho--Bill Parks
Chalk Bag Specialist--Pocatello, ID--San Krieg
Quality Bicycle Products--Ogden, UT--Steve Flagg
Asana Climbing--Boise, ID--Jamey Sproul
Wild Iris Mountain Sports--Lander, WY--Jennifer Barrett
Alpine Sports--Ogden, UT--Peggie Chambers Ambrey
Oceanmedix.com, LLC--Wilson, WY--Dennis Emory
The Base Camp--Billings, MT--Scott Brown
Thompson Manufacturing Inc.--Clearfield, UT--Rock Thompson
Outdoor Research--Seattle, WA--Dan Nordstrom
International Mountain Guides--Ashford, WA--Phil Ershler
Logan Outdoor Products/Camp Chef--Logan, UT--Ty Measom
Far Bank Enterprises--Bainbridge Island, WA--Travis Campbell
Mountain Gear--Spokane Valley, WA--Paul Fish
Ultralight Adventure Equipment--Logan, UT--Chris McMaster
Peak Sports--Corvalis, OR--Jeff Katz
Montrail--Richmond, CA--Topher Gaylord
Treasure Mountain Inn--Park City, UT--Andy Beerman
Mountain Tools--Carmel, CA--Larry Arthur
Mammoth Mountaineering Supply-- Mammoth Lakes, CA--Dave Talsky
Christoph & Company--Park City, UT--Lesley Christoph
Wilson’s Eastside Sports--Bishop, CA--James Wilson
Desert Rock Sports--Las Vegas, NV--Steve Mallory
Grassroots Outdoor Alliance--Park City, UT--Roanne Miller
Midwest Mountaineering--Minneapolis, MN--Rod Johnson
River Sports Outfitters--Knoxville, TN--Laura Jones
Burton Snowboards--Burlington, VT--Jake Burton Carpenter Donna Carpenter--Owners
Jetboil, Incorporated--Manchester, NH--Perry Dowst
Mammut Sports Group--Shelbourne, VT--Bill Supple
Penguin Brands--Greater Boston Area, MA--Donna Williams
River Runner Outdoor Center--Columbia, SC--Guy Jones
Pack and Paddle--Lafayette, LA--Rebecca Williams
Pack Rat Outdoor Center--Fayettville, AR--Carolyn Crook
Rabbit Mountain--Miami, FL--Edward Gerety
Equip--Derbyshire, UK--Matt Gowar
Exped--Zurich, Switzerland--Heidi Brun CEO



Reading through, it looks like prohbiting "mechanized use" is the main part of their agenda, and parachutes are already classified as "mechanized" by the federal government.

Yup, because a massive federal government is so awesome.

It's very telling that if we want to be able to use public lands for recreation, we have to beg permission from the CEO of a private company, who can grant us permission to jump.

Welcome to the New American Corporatocracy.

It was just as illegal to jump it when it was a national monument as it was when it became a national park. This is a fact documented in multiple court documents.


There is NO DIFFERENCE between a national park and a national monument because in both cases the real estate in question is occupied by NPS forces. Ergo, it is a crime to jump from its cliffs while wearing a parachute. Period. Full stop.

These tree hugger twinkies have no clue that most of their own cherished wilderness activities are also under siege by NPS occupiers in other units, and that they hasten the end of their own outdoor enjoyment in the Moab area by allying themselves with the true destroyers of the wilderness.

Of course, most of them voted for Obama, so they've already demonstrated twice that they do not understand the theory of consequences or the physics of cause and effect.

44

With all due respect, you are have no idea what you are talking about. Mario v. the NPS? Good luck with that.

Do a little basic research about the history of NPS v. parachutists and see what you come up with.

The ABP was able to change the Management Policies document to put BASE jumping decisions back in the jurisdiction of individual unit superintendents, but any one of them who says yes effectively ends their career at that moment, so nothing has really changed.

The best thing you can do is do some homework about which companies are pushing this, and what products they sell, then figure out which of their product-related activities have already been hosed in areas occupied by NPS forces, then go to THEM and educate THEM to leave NPS out of their efforts and try a different route to preserve the wilderness AND their freedom to enjoy it as they want to.

Otherwise y'all just pissin' in the NPS wind.

44

But isn't the government here to protect and save us all?

I agree, being that the NPS and the Feds could care less about a bunch of BASE jumpers, if this measure passes, you can say good bye to jumping in mineral bottom and other areas newly declared a National Monument, or whatever. Most likely, I see the expansion of Canyonlands to incorporate the areas that the measure is trying to protect.

I am willing to do a video interview of jumpers and slackliners in their outdoor gear, and ask them if they would continue to buy Black Diamond, Mountain Hardware, Petzel, etc. if they were to get shut out of these areas doing what they love. I'm here in Moab for the boogie, and there is also a huge slackline group hanging out near mineral bottom. I think a signature campaign to boycott all the companies on the list would be a good start. It might not be very much, but I would prefer to go down fighting, rather than sit passively hoping that the NPS will have a change of heart and let us jump in Our parks.

If anyone has any good ideas about how to rally against this measure, post em. I would not trust that this will work in our favor if it passes. Lets not make the same mistakes of the past.

I'll be the first one to admit I don't really know what I am talking about. Luckily, I don't let ego get in the way of trying to promote discussion. If we stop making petty generalizations about government dominance, corporate greed and a potentially socialist president, then maybe we can get some sort of ideas going on how to keep our sport safe in Moab. It would really suck if we couldn't jump in Mineral Bottom or had to worry about some fat park ranger chasing me across the Green River.

With that said, I never pinned Mario against the NPS. I merely mentioned he is a stand up guy and has a lot of experience in the area. So he would be a good face to have meeting people (given he wanted that responsibility). There are definitely others that fully qualify.

I understand the issues of NPS vs parachutes and your criticism of that point doesn't really make any sense? I'm 100% for resisting any NPS involvement in the area.

Maybe you're confusing where I said BLM and NPS. Right now (If I am not mistaken) BLM rangers patrol the areas that we legally jump in Moab looking for other things like camping permits. However, since it is BLM land, the legal jumping goes on. If it's a "national monument" and remains BLM then we don't have an issue? Someone correct me on that, but that is my main point.

I agree, we should definitely make a point to say where the NPS could affect other people (especially off road vehicles which is a HUGE lobby in Moab).

For how long?

That's a great and valid point. It's also something that would need to be defined at the very beginning of this process with the enactment of this statute. If we get a strong enough lobby, which is very difficult, you can make some interesting things happen. Like I said, the off roading industry in Moab will suffer as well. There is a potential partner that shares a similar loss.

Instead of boycotting everyone and making it a contentious environment right away, I think we should talk to these companies to educate them on our existence. I'm sure 99.99999% of people don't know how NPS screws over BASE jumping. Again, this is where discussion will help.

I think it would be a huge mistake to count on BLM being the legal guardian of the land if the measure passess. It would most likely take the path of least legal resistance and become a National Monument and taken over by the NPS in some way.

I hope we as a group can do something positive and rally together and put up some kind of a fight.

I think it would be best to assume that we will loose our jumping privileges and start gathering signatures and send boycott lists to all companies and businesses that support this. Many BASE jumpers do other sports like climbing, cycling, skiing, snow-boarding, climbing, slacklining, etc and although these companies do not sell BASE gear, we as a user group can still have a negative impact on their business's.

Am I being too optimistic that we cannot work together to fight this in some way? I am willing to do my part, and help in any way I can. I Love jumping in Moab and I would hate to loose exit points.

Here's a link to a Facebook page against the expansion of Canyonlands:

https://www.facebook.com/...96616399117?fref=tck

It appears that a petition will be organized against the expansion.

Not just directed at Tom but does everyone realize that the NPS and the 'government' that everyone is speaking of is a corporation as well right? We are not just now starting to beg the corps for permission for things, it's been going on for quite a while now.

Check out the NPS HQ page here... http://www.manta.com/...ational-park-service

Please correct yourself. Cite one -- just one -- "national monument" that is not occupied by the NPS.

If you can, it will be news to me, as in 33 years of dealing with this issue, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone posit that the BLM runs any national monument, which are, by definition, real estate occupied by the National Park Service.

The original status of the real estate does not matter; as soon as it's designated as a national monument, its previous stewards are replaced by NPS occupiers and the freedom to enjoy that real estate as the Great Spirit intended is forever damaged.

All this aside, I much appreciate your enthusiasm and interest in doing something to end this brain-dead "initiative" by political correct and politically trendy outdoor equipment manufacturers who have no effing clue about the true nature of the federal agency with which they're consorting.

But even you have only a limited amount of time and energy to devote to this so you can't afford to waste either because you're uninformed. PM me if you want on this; it would be my pleasure to tell you all I've learned over the years and to be a sounding board for your ideas.

Same goes for anyone else out there interested in working to break the back of this idiot initiative precipitated by that deadly combination of political correctness and utter cluelessness.

44

http://www.blm.gov/.../NLCS/monuments.html

I know a few of those are co-managed with the NPS, but from what I can tell not all of them are. Apparently there is usually not enough money for the NPS to manage until it becomes a National Park.

Just another question, where are our gear manufactures?

This. I would think that many of the companies on that list would be friendly to BASE jumpers. Maybe they really aren't educated on the subtleties of the NPS's hard-on for screwing over jumpers. We're such a small group that maybe having the more prominent outdoor gear companies (as well as the rock climbers, slack-liners, etc) on our side would be the best approach. If we can get them to see us as just enjoying the same aspects of nature in a different, measured, calculated, respectful way...


Educational short BASE documentary on the subject? If done well it would reach a wide audience and bring the issues to light. Not saying this would make a huge difference, but it could be one more thing in addition to potential boycotting.



Good question...

We're such a small group... having...
more [people of any kind over 18] on
OUR side would be the best approach.

I agree, remember, it is the whites who
marched hand-in-hand with the blacks
is why the 1964 civil rights act passed.

WE are too small to sucessfully lobby
on our own, but garnering the support
of more people will help our cause.

I'm glad this thread is getting back on track towards action. I would "Like" the facebook page (the link is posted below) for the people who are against the expansion of Canyonlands, which will convert areas like mineral bottom into NPS territory. Joining together with all the people who are against this is our best bet. I am sure there are many more off-roaders, atv'ers, dirt bike riders, and others who we can side with to have a much louder voice in this fight.

Being that many BASE jumpers wear outdoor gear, and may likely participate in other sports like climbing, sending a polite email with as many signatures that we can gather and explain how we as a user group would be shut out by this measure, and that we would not support any business that does not support us.

If anyone has any better ideas, please add something positive to this thread so that we can work together against this, or not and say good bye to some primo exit points.

https://www.facebook.com/...ands/403396616399117

The official public comment period for the Environmental Assessment ends on October 19th, though the public may still submit unofficial comments until the final decision on the sale. The BLM will issue the final list of parcels to be leased at a yet-to-be-determined date. The auction is scheduled for February 2013.


http://www.farcountry.org/articles.cfm?mode=detail&id=1347469737370

Really though, so many helicopter rides from Moab to the Grand Junction ER for BASE jumpers in the last 6 weeks, BASE jumping might just kill itself...

That's pretty lame Walt.

List of national monuments by president:
National monuments by president (scroll to the bottom of the page)

I cannot find any instances of Obama declaring a national monument during his first term, either in the above list or elsewhere.

He did declare Chimney Rock in CO a national monument this past September during the recent campaign. Coincidence or an opportunistic attempt to get votes in an important campaign state?

Last month he declared the Cesar E. Chavez national monument in California during the campaign.

I see no benefit to him in declaring Moab a national monument so my prediction, based on his past behavior, is nothing to worry about.

Lame? We shall see.

Walt

p.s. Besides, Obama knows the BASE community helped get him re-elected: clicky.

Sorry for the thread drift, guys. I'll shutup now.

(edited to sweep my sloppiness under the rug)

There are plenty of deep pockets on that list of corporate interests pushing for it. That's all the benefit any politician needs. It's all about the money, and every politician knows it. The right "campaign contributions" or "lobbying gifts to unaffiliated political action committees" will motivate any politician to act.

You're talking about a guy who has won and retained power by creating the biggest money political machine in the history of the world. He knows how this game is played.

For what it's worth, the park expansion was proposed back in 1999:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19990318&id=6ewjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zOwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5350,702962

It was met with opposition by the oil and gas companies. Much of southern utah land is a checkerboard of "state school" lands. It is potentially more profitable to not remove those lands from mineral exploration.

There was a meeting on the topic here in Moab last night. A signature drive was started and hopefully a digital version will be available on the Facebook page. Please sign the petition when it's available online, or if you are in town please sign the paper version. I'll see if I can get my own copy for people to sign. I'm in Moab for the next few weeks.

Thanks,
Frankie B

https://www.facebook.com/...ands/403396616399117

Some of the OHV'ers (off-highway vehicles) have begun posting on the Facebook pages of companies that are in favor of the National Monument that they will not be buying their products because they are supporting this measure. The OHV crowd is fairly large and they will be affected by the expansion just as much as we will.

It might help to do the same, and politely voice your displeasure and let these businesses know that you will no longer be buying products from them because of their support for this proposal.

getting legal base jumping from the fed(s) is about as easy as it is to pass a constitutional amendment or to allow legalized weed, federally allowed (and I don't smoke the stuff!)

Wouldn't it be worth losing some exit points if it meant keeping the oil and gas companies off that land ?

I've talked with several of the leaders of the companies/groups that support this. This act is indeed going to include responsible off road motor use and BASE.

So boycotting companies would only be a step backwards. The letter and companies are asking for it to be managed by the BLM so access will remain as it is now.

Now the one downfall to all of this is that it is going to promote more usage of the areas and the status of national monument will attract more people. More people = amenities = abusing the land. That is my main concern, but as far as being able to BASE jump: that isn't going anywhere soon.

Honestly?

1) They're not in control of the final legislation. Once you invite the feds into your business, they are running the show--even if you're not happy with the outcome.

2) I'm not sure I believe them. I've made multiple inquiries via email and Facebook to those companies and no one has been willing to make a written response. Did you talk to them via voice, in a way that they can't be held to? I wonder why they'd be willing to tell you something in a conversation that they won't put on paper?

3) The NPS already allows "responsible" BASE jumping in national parks. The permit process is very simple. You just have to apply for a permit and be granted one, and then you're free to jump within the conditions of your permit. Sounds pretty reasonable and responsible, doesn't it?

That's a personal decision for each of us to make for themselves.

For me, the answer is no. It's not worth it.


To put it another way, isn't it worth losing the exit points in national parks if it keeps the parks safe for future generations to enjoy? What do you think? Worth it?

Looks like there is a petition in opposition to the greater canyonlands expansion on change.org

sign it

http://www.change.org/petitions/president-barack-obama-do-not-designate-the-greater-canyonlands-area-a-national-monument

The protection of the land should come first...

The BLM ranger in charge of recreation in the MOAB area said that as of now nobody has even approached the BLM about this movement and at this point it's nothing more than a letter to the president requesting action. I really don't think that has been much thought put into this at all buy the parties on the list. The list has been spearheaded by just two people with their own agenda, one of these individuals resides in Colorado and the other is a local Moab business owner who have gathered "support" from the companies on the list with the help of SUWA (Southern UT Wilderness Alliance).
I do agree that if it comes to pass it will most likely be managed by the BLM but it is just a small step towards further control and regulation. I have my doubts that it will be turned into a monument as a result of this letter but you never know and we should definitely express our stance against it.

According to the NPS website, the NPS manages 32 National Monuments.

http://www.nps.gov/...pses2/glimpsest1.htm

The BLM manages 17 National Monuments.

http://www.blm.gov/.../NLCS/monuments.html

According to the Sierra Club, the expansion will be pushed through with existing legislation through the Antiquities Act.

http://www.sierraclub.org/...ater-Canyonlands.pdf

I don't know at this point if BASE jumping is allowed at any BLM run National Monuments. It's also not clear to me who will manage the land if the proposal passes. As the name for the proposal implies, the expansion of "Greater Canyonlands" may be managed by the NPS since they already manage the adjacent Canyonlands National Park.

Utah Congressional Delegation Opposes New National Monument.

Link to letter from Jason Chaffetz, Orrin Hatch, Mike Lee and Rob Bishop to President Obama.

I've just gotten off the phone with the BLM ranger at the Kanab Visitor Center for the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument.

BASE jumping anywhere in the monument requires a special use permit, which can take as long several months, and involves substantial paperwork. As of this moment, such a permit has never been issued.

Obviously, we in the BASE community are very familiar with the National Park Service "permit" procedure for BASE jumping. The NPS officially allows BASE jumping by permit, but categorically refuses to grant any permits for BASE in National Parks. Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like this is the same policy that is being applied in the GSENM.

I believe that moving BASE in Moab to a system like this would greatly restrict our ability to jump in the area. The present system requires no permits or paperwork, and is, from my perspective, vastly preferable to a permit style system (in which permits may or may not ever be granted) such as that in GSENM.

One of the few exceptions that costs me $2500 every year, not including the cost of insurance:

http://www.bridgeday.info/nps.php

Walt, you seem to be prone to hyperbole, so I assume that you can see in retrospect that what you wrote above is not true.

I think it would probably be best if we tried to keep this discussion on topic. Getting sidetracked into a political argument about anything other than BASE access issues probably won't be very productive.

Getting back to the OP, if we want to effectuate (or prevent) regulatory change, let's start by correctly spelling jeopardy. Just a thought.

Here's a link to an online petition against the expansion of "Greater Canyonlands."

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/...anyonlands-monument/

It should be obvious to anyone that it *is* true.

Back to the discussion. I think the bottom line is that there is not much to worry about regarding Obama designating Moab as a national monument.

Tom does bring up a great point that Obama *is* all about the money and, if the pockets are deep enough, he will act.

I have no clue whether the pockets of the outdoor companies are deep enough but agree that it would be the deciding factor.

I should not have made such a strongly political comment in this forum but stand by my view that if Obummer's behavior during his first term is an accurate predictor, then this issue will not be on his radar screen.

Not worth discussing Obummer but if anyone wants to, we can take it to the hangout forum.

Walt

We should start a white house petition too!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/user?destination=/petition/create

I initially signed the petition and now recant my opinion. Here's why:

All those people/companies who are for it are not AGAINST BASE jumping, there for conservation of our land. Currently the Bureau of Land Mismanagement is allowing drilling for gas and oil in various places.

The Bureau of Lumber and Mining also lets ranchers and who ever else use the land to whatever extent they want to. Personally I would not want to exit from Mineral Bottom and look out at 20 oil derricks.

The problem is in how the laws are written for the NPS and Monuments. Not in people wanting to conserve the land. So many of the names and companies on that list have given back more to the outdoor community than most people here..... myself included.

Rewrite the laws of the NPS and Monuments ect.... and conserve the land in which we all want to enjoy. Anyone who thinks the BLM is on the side of BASE should really think again. They give as much shit about BASE as they do about whoever they lease the land to.

No. We are like the insect they are accidentally squashing. We're tiny and insignificant, and if they kill us in achieving their goals, they have no problem with that.

If they actually cared, wouldn't they look for a different solution--one that didn't involve pushing BASE jumpers out of what is probably the most popular area in the USA?

I don't really care what their underlying motivation is. What I care about is the result of their actions--which is something that so far they don't seem to care much about.

If they really aren't heartless corporations, then why don't they show some heart and try to find a solution that works for everyone?

Oil and Gas exploration has been going on for over 20 years in the Moab area and there are still no rigs in Mineral Canyon. Jumping at Mineral would not be an option if this monument becomes reality so you wouldn't have to worry about seeing those imaginary rigs anyway...
The first white people to settle in the Moab valley brought 300 head of cattle with them in the 1860's. Cattle ranching has been the largest ongoing business in Moab for over 100 years, followed by mining, and only recently tourism. I fail to see where you are going with the ranching thing? The ranchers have plenty of federal regulations to follow ever since UT became a state in the early 1900's.

Do you honestly believe the NPS does a better job "preserving the land" (whatever that means) than the BLM does? Anytime the NPS gets involved with anything, its a headache for everyone.

Tom, your answer is in your characterization of the relationship: Almost no one who squashes bugs sees themselves as heartless - they're BUGS, for Pete's sake and who cares about them.

So heartlessness is not part of this equation: CLUELESSNESS is the key driver here - cluelessness first and foremost about what happens to ANYONE who asks NPS to get involved in its business, and cluelessness about the collateral damage created to bugs like.

Best assume not that they are heartless; just oeprate on the fact that they are clueless.

Educating them about their principal cluelessness is job #1; then they will better understand when you bring up a bug's life to them.

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Tom: Heartless corporations... Gary Neptune owner of Neptune Mountaineering is not even close to a corporation. Carl Kelly, Jay Smith ect.. NOT these heartless corporations you claim.

Chris: You think ranchers are grazing cattle on Federal Land? Drilling for oil/gas and cattle grazing is allowed and leased to cattle ranchers and heartless corporations for $$$.

I seriously doubt that all these companies are like "fuck you base jumpers..... watch this, were gonna take the land from you."

Again the point is to re-write the NPS/Monument laws which regulate BASE jumping in these areas.

Does the NPS take better care of the land? Well last time I checked there's no drilling of oil and cattle grazing in El Cap meadow that I can see from the exit ramp nor on landing. Now the NPS has a list of other shit that can be discussed as issues of land management.

Nor is there any BASE jumping without the added excitement of police pursuit and possible arrest.

If what you want is to "care for the land" then you really ought to throw out BASE jumpers--and all other human beings.

But what's the point preserving the land for future generations if no generations ever get to enjoy it?

So, you're saying that they really, honestly care about us? And they've given careful thought to the impact they are likely to have on BASE jumpers? And they are concerned with formulating a plan that won't reduce our access?

Or is it that they just don't give a damn about us? Wait--isn't "don't give a damn" more or less another way of saying "heartless"?

Lets have the ATV community chime in. Same with horseback riders, owners of dogs (NPS rules is no dog off a leash)... the list can continue.

If you think the BLM cares about the land think again.

Are you telling me BLM cares about BASE jumpers????
We both know the answer to that

Can you define "cares about the land"?

I suspect that by your definition, I don't care about the land. I think the value of wild lands is that they are available to human beings. To me, "The Land" has no value in and of itself. If I can't get out there and climb/hike/jump/whatever else, I don't see any real value in it.



No, I don't. But not caring is a whole lot better than caring enough to arrest us.

Yes, of course they are grazing on federal land just as they have been grazing on that same land since long before "we" took possession of that land from the Mexicans and the Indians. Who are we to tell them to stop is my point. They were here first. My property is a USFS in-holding in the La Sal mountains and I am surrounded on all sides by federal land as well as grazing cattle. It's a small inconvenience.


To me (as well as a lot of Moab locals) it's not just the rules being adjusted to make "most" users happy it's about the presence of unreasonable rules at all on public lands. BLM does a great job at managing the land and when I am on BLM land it feels free and un-touched. NPS and National Monuments, not so much. That is the issue. I don't want fracking in my backyard screwing up my watershed and making my land worthless and un-livable anymore than any of these companies but unless you want to go back to the horse and wagon days it is a present reality.
When you jump Mineral do you hike all the way out there from Moab or do you drive a petroleum based vehicle?

Yosemite valley and El Cap Meadow untouched!?! That Ludicrous! If John Muir was still around I would love to hear his response to that silly comment.

So all these gear companies use nylon, but they don't want natural resources to be extracted from here, now does anyone remember how nylon is produced? Wait I kinda remember my grandfather who was a chemist in the textile industry explaining this to me but I'll post something I found on the interwebs


In the late 1920s and the early 1930s, chemists at the DuPont Company first produced nylon by combining chemicals they extracted from coal, water, air, petroleum, natural gas, and agricultural by-products.

If you use the tools of our related sports well you should probably understand where they come from and accept the encroachment on your view, remember nature created oil natural gas and coal and we are part of nature and it's natural resources. Ashes to ashes folks

Don't they also mostly produce their goods in low cost factories in Asia and then ship them--in fuel burning container ships--to their markets in the USA?

Funny how the state is fighting to take back federal lands and the corporations are lobbying to give it back to them!

What became of HB148? I thought Utah was going to take back their land from the feds!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7C322vc3M

And hemp became illegal. Humans are stupid sometimes.

I am very naive on the whole BLM thing. Can we rent the land from them at what cost? Somewhere in my memory I thought I heard they leased cattle grazing rights at a dollar an acre. Could base jumpers actually come together enought to collectively lease mineral bottom? and lock it up for years?

There is an oil rig at the mineral bottom turnoff road currently :( cant see any from exit points yet, but they are drilling in the area

Today I had a voicemail left on my phone today by Jeff Lauersdorf, NLM Law Enforcement Ranger, at the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument.

Note that this is the Monument that Peter Metcalf (CEO of Black Diamond) has referred to as his model for how a Greater Canyonlands Monument would operate.


To quote:

"...bottom line is there is no place you can do it legally on the Monument."


I believe that Peter has either been misled as to the legal consequences of his proposal, or he is intentionally deceiving others in his lobbying. I hope that it's the former, but in either case it doesn't say very good things about his efforts.

The mp3 file is too large to attach in this forum. Feel free to email me if you want a copy of it. I'll work on reducing the size so I can post it.

Believe me Peter Metcalf does not care about BASE jumpers, he actually doesn't care about climbers either, unless they can help him sell his products, he is the CEO of an Outdoor Products Company, he did a great job of turning a struggling corporation around, he cares a lot about his corporation (Ego) and since it is dependent upon the use of public lands to sell his products, he cares enough to see to it that the people who buy his products continue to have a playground. He is either too arrogant, or not enough of a visionary to see where BASEjumpers fit in.

I believe it's a gas rig. It has been almost right across the street from the current location at the turnoff for a few years now. It was located just a little further towards Dead Horse Point so most jumpers probably never noticed it. They took the old one down just recently and moved it closer to the turnoff. It's nothing new is all I'm saying. A sweeping closure of the area to most general users is not a solution. We should fight the drilling locations that affect water sources and archealogical sites on a case by case basis and do everything we can on a personal level to lessen our dependence on fossil fuels. Whether u like it or not we all are end users of the products being pulled out of the ground.

hey guys,
I've talked with a lot of people about this, from the local Moab BLM recreation manager (who is extremely pro base and until now has not been included in any discussions) to the director of the Access Fund to the CEO of Backcountry.com to the people who drafted the original letter and came up with the original proposal.
Currently everyone agrees the monument idea is not going to happen, and everyone also agrees it's not a very good one. The thing was born from good intentions (preserve the land from getting messed up by drilling/mining), but was not thought out well at all and is kinda like a two-legged stool. The Utah congress just sent a letter to Obama telling him they hate the idea, and there is really not much danger of it coming to pass.
So the original proposers of the idea are kind of going back to the drawing board. Although I really don't feel like being super involved with stuff like this, I am talking to them and at least trying to keep the basic questions on the table: like, why even try to change the current land management? At any rate, what I'm hearing from everyone (and especially from the Access Fund which is supposed to be a climbing organization) is that they are all pro-base jumping, and they are now very interested in keeping base jumping in mind along with the other recreation groups for any new ideas anyone comes up with. A lot of this is because of all the outcry that happened in the last couple of weeks, so thanks for being concerned and being vocal.

I received this email from Backcountry.com today:



I think this is the first time I've seen a sponsored BASE jumper use their connections with their corporate sponsor to help with BASE access issues. Good for Steph!

Thanks for passing that on, Tom. Kudos to Steph and the backcountry.com peeps, and everyone elese who lent their voices to beating back this probably well-intentioned but definitely misinformed and fundamentally flawed attempt to "save" the land from evil capitalists.

And for anyone still harboring any illusions that the NPS is a reasonable agency with which to deal, look no further than here.

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It seems like in the end this whole hubbub in Moab will have worked to shed some light on the legitimacy of BASE Jumpers as responsible recreational users of the land thanks to people like Steph and Tom.

For those concerned with mineral development in the area here is a other perspective by a geologist and land manager of 30 years in SE UT: http://sagebrushcoalition.com/...ater-canyonlands-nm/

Ashley Korenblat is one of the spearheads of this monument movement and she also happens to own Western Spirit Cycling here in Moab. I personally believe that she (Ashley) has alterior motives in presenting this proposal that will result in financial benefits for her at the expense of others.

Kaaaaaa-CHING!

As the age-old adage goes, follow the money.

What I don't get, though, is how she could benefit financially because, IIRC, this proposal includes designating the area in question as wilderness, which means no "mechanized transport," which means... no bicycles.

So it appears that either there's a flaw in your analysis or she's just going Jane Curtain on us.

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Hello, my name is John from http://www.thumpertalk.com/

I've suggested forming alliances and relationships with as many people this could affect as possible. Such as anyone who actually does spend REAL time outdoors. Driving an 8mpg Range Rover from a McMansion (the people who wish to enforce this garbage) wearing the most expensive hiking gear to the woods once a year, if that, doesn't count.

We are having a discussion about this as well and are also very concerned. I was quite surprised at some of the companies vying to stick their greedy little fingers in the land pie. Very disappointing to say the least. Many of us are also climbers, hikers, mountain bikers, campers, etc.

Feel free to join us.

One of the most powerful organizations we have is http://www.sharetrails.org/

More information can be found here for those who are interested,

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/46-land-uselegislation/

Thank you for mentioning this in your post.
It is greatly appreciated,

John

Here is fantastic rebuttal from a geologist who actually lives there,

http://sagebrushcoalition.com/2012/12/07/a-rebuttal-to-the-oia-ashley-korenblat-statement-on-the-proposed-greater-canyonlands-nm/#more-97

http://www.moabsunnews.com/news/article_bd029d04-64e2-11e2-8c0b-001a4bcf6878.html

From the Moab Newspaper. Apparently count officials do not agree with or support the idea of a National Monument.

+1

The Greater Canyonlands debate still smolders and has been recently re-ignited albeit with some friendlier terms (transparent democratic process instead of executive order). The latest news is here:

http://www.sltrib.com/...reater-utah.html.csp

If you are in the SLC area and are interested in having your voice heard tomorrow is your chance: Senator James Dabakis announced introduction of a resolution calling for protection of Greater Canyonlands - tomorrow, Thursday, February 7 @ 4 pm in room 415 of the State Capitol - that resolution will get a hearing before the Senate Natural Resources Committee.