Basejumper.com - archive

 

I think it's very similar to the climbing aspect. Any dumb noob can or will go buy a guide book and go hurt himself trying to climb without a mentor. The smart ones hire and or learn from a mentor. As a base jumper in these times, you might get tared and feathered putting out a guide book. I think the big factor is us Americans screwed up early in it's infancy where as other countries took notes and made some changes. I feel we have a few more hurtles to work through, since we are going at it kinda backwards.

I totally think it's doable, just takes time and jumpers resources. The more Legal Locations we can get will only help. Seems like people are so Sue Happy sometimes here in the states. There's the select few base jumpers too that give the sport a bad name, but publicizing the wrong part of the sport. I think too many base jumpers are lazy (myself included at times) that just want to keep doing what they're doing cause it Works. Although (knocking on wood) I'm glad to see the legal S we have go strong for many of years and appreciate any and all help the locals have done to keep it that way!

I would be glad to offer input or help in anyway Huck if you want to help take something like this on. We as the BASE community could and would benefit.

I would like to here why the other organizations in the past have not worked out, etc. I know getting Licenses for BASE might be silly, but you could maybe do it by each site, since they are all different.

It would be a dream come true when Yosemite becomes known as "the Valley" in the basejumping community!

It wont work in USA cause if you havent noticed yet, USA is not a FREE country, its almost like a dictatorship there :P

 
You really don't have to make the little toung in cheek symbale. It's a perfectly true statement. And we all know it.

Lee

 

possibly, if the group was willing to put in years (decades?) of stewardship and protection of the areas (things like fixing ropes on the east ledges).

also requesting public forums/discussions with NPS and lobbying in DC.

I dont know who is going to put in the effort though?

Everyone complains about no access to parks-- so do something about it?


I guess the short answer is US. The only people who care about the ability to have safer LEGAL objects-- are BASEjumpers

I figure people died to get me where I am today, what can I give back to make this a better for the basers behind me?

I also think providing case studies of areas that successfully allow base jumping (along with the economics such as landing cards or tourism increase) at the right time in public discussion of base jumping would be great. If you show that it is a widespread activity that is governed pretty easily - then maybe you can prove that the earlier el cap fuckups that ruined base jumping for a few decades in our national parks were a fluke - and that modern american base jumpers would not be so belligerent or criminal.

Just a thought...I hope it would work out good the second time!

You are joking right?
Are you not aware of the efforts and .....
Please tell you are joking.
Take care,
space

What makes you think that organization would better the sport?

Do you think that legal jumping in National Parks in the USA would be good for the sport? And if so, why?

Those are serious questions. I'm honestly interested in your (or anyone else's) answers to them.

I guess thats the reason I am asking or discussing it..

I first off was for bandit jumping.

BUT
several things change my mind. I do believe organizing can sway different people for different things.
Organizing could bring legal spots to each state, more jumpers in a safer environment.

Legal in NPS SHOULD be part of our right.. If it was organized/safer it would improve the public image of the sport.


but most of all if we dont control our own destiny it will be chosen for us.

Jumps are a Right in all NP's we just have let them push us around for so long that they believe that they have the authority to tell us anything and we'll buy it and it seems to be working pretty well.
An organization to gain access may work but a completely different approach will have to be taken. Petitions, civil disobedience, reasoning, etc will not work in the system that is in place. The only things that may work are money and/or leverage. We probably can't come up with enough money to convince them so what can we use as leverage to get these PUBLIC SERVANTS to listen to the PEOPLE who employ them?

I think it's a losing battle to think that you can improve BASE jumpings image. There are too many yahoos who could care less about anyone but themselves to make a change in the publics eye. One stupid act negates 1000's of perfectly executed jumps. That being said at least their effects could be lessened by not inviting those that can't govern themselves accordingly to events that will be held publicly.

I do think that a group put together to help progress and protect the sport (not just attempt to gain access) through different means is a good idea and one that I have been toying with for quite some time as well. PM me and we'll talk about some ideas.

Tom, I'd LOVE to be able to legally jump in the National Parks in the USA, just like we can here.

What the Norwegians have got at Kjerag is awesome. I know a few don't like it because it's like a DZ, but I don't think it's bad for the sport. I think it's helped the sport grow.

What benefits do you see in having more jumpers?

What sort of system would you envision being in place? Any regulations on jumping? Or none at all?

I'd like to see very few regulations, (i.e. there may be some such as those at LB and Kjerag) where the local BASE jumpers in each state work with the authorities (NPS or whoever) to drum out a workable system.

These days anything is possible and I honestly think legal BASE in your National Parks is not far away. It means people will have to talk to each other and maybe we won't get exactly what we want - compromises on all sides probably, but I think it will happen and in my lifetime.

Look at all the legal BASE jumping around the world. KL, ITW, Norway, NZ, Switzerland. The public pressure is growing. One day the NPS will have to compromise and agreements will happen, IMHO.

I think that the course will dictate action. Regulations should be minimized but part of being a good neighbor.

I think there is a strength in numbers, it broadens our pool to choose from.


Tom What are your thoughts?

Would BASE community rather keep it underground? Travel 5,000 miles to just to legally jump some nice E's?

Travel 1000 miles just to take a FBJC in the day--

I see it very different. I don’t believe that the NPS will ever have pressure from what they view as their constituents to legalize BASE. In the case of some miracle whereby they do give us another opportunity to jump legally, they will shortly be provided an excuse to take away that privilege.

Furthermore, I do not look forward to the day that BASE jumpers can legally jump in the Valley. For a large part, jumpers are considerate and competent people but there's always a subgroup of self destructing idiots who will ruin the public image of the group.

I go to places like Brento and the Swiss Valley and see people who have limited experience jumping aggressively and without a cautious and conservative approach. It seems people jump with the mindset that they are trying to perform one good jump to prove they are ready for the next more technical exit, rather than always making jumps in good style and enjoying the present. What’s with the mentality that people think "I need to just keep throwing myself off this wall in a wingsuit until I start having good exits and flying well..." It appears to me that there are a lot of jumpers who have substituted a huge ego for actually demonstrating their competence and good judgment.

Anyway, I do not look forward to the day this scene plays out in the Valley in public view. In my meager experience, I’d prefer a much more aesthetic BASE jumping scene characterized by fewer jumps, but done in better style and jumpers having more meaningful experiences.

Sorry to be negative about things on the whole. Its typically not my nature.

Does anybody think it might be more fruitful in the USA to focus on other walls rather than the yosemite valley walls? Especially given the current climate where NPS is studying traffic issues in Yosemite (and thinking about curtailing traffic soon with permits to certain cliffs).

Maybe focus on Colorado where they may be more open-minded toward the idea?

Just to make one point in the discussion... Base jumping IS NOT legal here in switzerland. It is being tolerated in most of the areas. What this means is that by no means it is a given right written to a law text that we can base jump off the cliffs here. The local people tolerate it as long as we behave but if we continuously show bad behaviour and act recless, it is very easy to prohibit base here. The sport is already growing tremendously and more people bring more exposure to the sports and the spotd where we are jumping. What we should keep in mind, especially as the sport and volumes are growing, is that most likely the field where you just landed is owned by someone. If there is one jumper landing there every now and then, most likely he does not care. If there is 100 jumpers landing there every day, most likely he will get pissed about continuous traffic on his backyard. Especially keeping thid in mind, we should act super carefully and thinking about our actions and how are they being seen by the local people. Because it is up to their tolerance if we are allowed to continue jumping in places like LB or not. The landing card in LB is a prime example. Before the jump numbers exploded in lb, the locals where more or less tolerating the odd landings on their fields. As long as we landed on low grass etc. But as the place became a dropzone with 20k jumps a year, this was just impossible to continue like this. So the SBA had to negotiate a deal with the farmers where they receive at least some kind of compensation from the continuous traffic on their land.

If it is not legal, can you please let us know the specific law that makes it illegal?
Thanks.

Does everyone believe that the only real headway we can make as a group is to gain access to to otherwise 'illegal' jumps?

Does anyone have any other visions to help progress BASE?
I have some but would like to hear from others.

Given that you´ve read my post I did not say it would be illegal either. :) I just merely wanted to make the point that given a non regulated nature of our sport the "legality" of our jumps is purely relying on the tolerance of the local people. If we behave and they want us there, we are welcome. If we don´t and they don´t want us there, for sure it can and will be banned. And very easily so. Take the latest events at Brevent for example, BASE jumping in general in France is accepted but at Brevent all of a sudden masses of people went to fly there and on top of that 2 accidents happened within 2 minutes from each other. And suddenly jumping there became prohibited.

And to your other post :

I have. First vision is to stop offering FJCs for money and stop posting videos to youtube. Remove all red bull etc media exposure and stop selling gear to unknown people at eBay. This will dramatically reduce the interest of the wuffos towards BASE and reduce the amount of douchebags entering the sport every year. Because I strongly believe that people who are committed, experienced (skydivers) and take their time to seek mentorship, will find someone to teach them for free without having to pay four digit figures of cash for someone to throw you off the bridge. For sure it makes it more difficult to get into base but I sincerely believe it would be the best for the sport. This for sure is highly unlikely to happen but then again you did not ask for a realistic plan but a vision. :)

Although I see where you are coming from with your question, I believe the discussion is realted to gaining access to ALL NP in The United States of NPS. Folks just mention Y valley because those walls seems to have the "grand daddy of them all" type feel. Unfortunatly many of the big walls in the US are located within NP land . Take Zion for expmple........HUGE playground.

What the NPS is doing is 100% pure discrimination againt a group. It's no different than saying you are not allowed to sit in the front of the bus because of the color of your skin.

I like these discussions of gaining access. Although a tough road ahead, it would be great to see this happen.

I envision what could happen similar to how marijuana has been decriminalized and legalized in the United States - on a state by state basis.

If a canyon in Colorado were legal to jump based on a policy within the national park, then it still might be illegal for you to jump el cap. It might mean the start of more parks following slowly the way it was with legal cannabis.

- Yes, I do.

Grow the sport gradually, carefully, safely, reponsibly and with respect for others, at all the legal (and "tolerated" ) sites all round the world.

How about coming up with a rating system for the legal sites we have that would also have technical beta for each location, similar to the Swiss Base Assoc. This atleast might save a life or two each year which only would help the sport.. The Swiss know people are going to come jump in the valley, so why not help set up some guidelines so just maybe not as many will get hurt, die or tick off the locals.

So an activities legality is determined by if you 'behave' or not? Who gets to define what 'behave' means? That sounds like you don't have any Rights, but mere privileges that can be taken away at a whim. I'm not sure of the legal structure in Switzerland by that doesn't sound right to me.



I understand your thoughts on this but I also understand that the sport will grow no matter what so taking control of how the sport progresses would be in our best interest. Having competent trainers and learning centers is something that should be done. Maybe a better screening process or skill determination would be a good idea for students to be accepted.

Selling gear to unqualified individuals would be nice to stop. The problem is the person selling wants money now and doesn't always care if he is selling to someone competent. What may solve this problem would be to have an non-profit entity that buys all qualified gear that people want to sell, this entity then screens potential buyers according to their guidelines before making the sale.

Stopping videos from going on youboob is a tough one... I don't see that happening but an entity that was a spokesperson for BASE would help to provide a positive image and also be a Public Relations Manager. Public relations managers and specialists create and maintain a favorable public image for their employer or client. They write material for media releases, plan and direct public relations programs, and raise funds for their organizations.

Just a few thoughts...

What Right are you referring to? If we are to challenge them and claim a Right we better know which one we are claiming. I don't see how improving the public image of BASE should have any impact on our jumping if it is truly a Right and we are harming no one.

I've bought gear from mfgrs without providing credentials, and I doubt they know me. And personally, I think it's their right to sell to whoever they want. They're business entities.

Over here, skydiving is self regulatory in many aspects. Problem is, the people in charge of this self regulation has to answer to someone. Yes, it's funny that someone can be in charge of self regulation but it's the animal farm all over again, some are just more equal than others.

This, together with the availability of skydiving and no screening process, leads to the most anal regulations I've ever come across, like regulations on what kind of knives to use for CRW, the exact weight allowed for your helmet, and of course the completely arbitrary jump number requirement system seen in many other skydiving organizations.

I don't like that system, and I would not want it transferred to BASE.

"I have. First vision is to stop offering FJCs for money and stop posting videos to youtube. Remove all red bull etc media exposure and stop selling gear to unknown people at eBay. This will dramatically reduce the interest of the wuffos towards BASE and reduce the amount of douchebags entering the sport every year. Because I strongly believe that people who are committed, experienced (skydivers) and take their time to seek mentorship, will find someone to teach them for free without having to pay four digit figures of cash for someone to throw you off the bridge. For sure it makes it more difficult to get into base but I sincerely believe it would be the best for the sport. This for sure is highly unlikely to happen but then again you did not ask for a realistic plan but a vision. "

You said it all... Best thing I have read in a long time

I have to agree with what you are saying. Gear manufacturers absolutely have the right to sell to whoever they want. Everyone has the right to make any choice in their life that they want as long as they are not injuring anyone else in the process. Self regulation would be the best thing but we have seen on many occasions that it just doesn't happen. Maybe a system, that allows for self-regulation but also has 'safegaurds' in place to steer the people who decide to not govern themselves, might work. Maybe if we come to a common understanding of what it is to be a good steward to the sport and we instill this into new jumpers a change can happen.
If we don't govern ourselves both personally and as a group it will certainly be done for us. Which is the dilemma we are in with the NPs.

A favorite quote:
"As regards the first set of dangers, it behooves us to remember that men can never escape being governed. Either they must govern themselves or they must submit to being governed by others. If from lawlessness or fickleness, from folly or self-indulgence, they refuse to govern themselves, then most assuredly in the end they will have to be governed from the outside. They can prevent the need of government from without only by showing that they possess the power of government from within...."

Theodore Roosevelt
Jamestown Exposition 1907

This was not to put you on the spot, it was to hopefully create some dialog. It goes out to everyone as well...

What claim of Right do we have to jump in our National Parks?

I have a few angles that I think we could pursue. The latest one has to do with our right to travel and our right of use.

The US Supreme Court said;

Undoubtedly the "RIGHT" of locomotion, the "RIGHT" to remove from one place to another according to inclination, is an attribute of personal liberty, and the "RIGHT," ordinarily, of free transit from or through the territory of any State is a "RIGHT" secured by the Fourteenth Amendment and by other provisions of the Constitution. See: Williams v. Fears, 343 U.S. 270, 274

Property is more than the mere thing which a person owns. It is elementary that it includes the "RIGHT" to acquire, use and dispose of it. See: Buchanan v. Warley, 245 U.S. 60, 74


Anyone have any thoughts on this? I have other court cases and legal references that put more weight behind this particular angle.

go on if you feel like sharing more...I am interested in hearing more

I agree with the way you are thinking

I was looking for the motto I had read. Were as Americans the NPS is part of our right handed down by Congress to use and promote conversation.

I also believe as a tax payer I have a right to use the park service as long as I am not impeding on the rights of others.

You can free climb a wall but you cant free fall the same wall.
This is discrimination. (rockclimbers are rescued the same as we are, and about 30 climbers are killed every year, what gives?)

Each year there are permits issued for rock climbing to some of the same exits points for would be BASErs in the NPS.
Why are rock climbing permits approved but BASE permits are not? Risk is comparable, imprint is comparable and yes, rescue for both are the same potentially.
Pursuant to s 2.17(a)(3) Air Delivery is only illegal if done WITHOUT a permit. Hence my questions: how many of you have submitted a permit? Which form did you use? Denied? Why? Approved? How long did it take to get a reply? Did you get a reply?
Yes, I agree it is going to take lobbying of several avenues to get action. I think with an organized BASE Board of Directors (or something like it) non-profit group could help with articulate speech for support of an educated cognizant voice asking for the same use and enjoyment of Federally supported lands as our fellow citizens. Those who do not gravitate to the mantra of “leave no footprint” “head on a swivel” “it’s as much about the journey” competent jumping then they will be dealt with summarily by their own wicked ways. Let them get prosecuted Karma is a bitch. And the same as governments cannot legislate morality; can we keep stupid from entering the sport of BASE. After all we are only truly responsible for our own actions. Those that are willing to be competent jumpers and follow the channels for safe legal jumping will do so. I’m very interested to see where this goes. It is a blatant discrimination of American Civil Liberties and should not be tolerated.
I’m willing to volunteer to help. PM if you’re interested.

On a personal note I prefer the idea of a very elite underground group of individuals on their humble journeys individually and collectively to a better state of being, but alas time cannot be turned back … nor can the tide be held …

 

Huck, you make a good point regarding discrimination. I was hiking in Yosemite last weekend while mulling the possibility of a Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection challenge to 36 CFR 2.17(a)(3) (the aerial delivery statute).

While NPS clearly has a mandate to regulate the use of parks in the interests of conservation, it must do so within the applicable constitutional rubric. As such, it cannot promulgate unreasonable regulations that have a discriminatory effect.

While the government usually wins equal protection challenges, an argument could be made that the law is unreasonable because it unfairly discriminates against a class (BASE jumpers) who weren't its intended target (back-country poachers & squatters).

Just some food for thought.

The military is struggling with this, "Win the people" thing right now...and even the military is realizing that it's not something you can do with direct force...You can't bomb a society in order to make them like you...and in much the same way, you can't force the NPS to simply bend to our will...the issue is much MUCH deeper than that...first we have to remove that, "Crazy Extremist" title from the BASE jumper image...We would do this by governing ourselves...

"If ... they refuse to govern themselves, then most assuredly in the end they will have to be governed from the outside. They can prevent the need of government from without only by showing that they possess the power of government from within...."

When BASE is a legitimate sport...only then can we begin to highlight the discrimination and ridiculousness that goes on with the NPS/legal system.

*Post above deleted b/c it's posted below
-ben

Ben, it's good that you have such a desire to "help". I think this is coming off a bit condescending though. What is your history in the sport? Why do you feel you have the 80% solution as opposed to some of the people's posts in here that have had decades in the sport?

Personally, I don't want to see BASE become regimented. I like the sport as it is and the direction I foresee it heading. However, I have very minimal experience and my opinion doesn't carry that much weight, so take this all with a grain of salt. From what I have seen in action sports, the more bureaucratic a sport becomes, the less fun, passionate, and adventurous it is. I think that's the opposite of the pioneering attitude that formed the sport. I also believe that BASE is not a good match for the majority of people. It's a special sport that I'm not sure can be ever really "legitimized" until we have precisely calculated mechanisms for removing cliff strikes all together.

The biggest issues are gaining access to NPS land and safety. Why do we need an international BASE association for that? I feel there are other ways around getting a system in that regard. We could get people in general who want to pursue this possible "right" we have entrenched in older laws. In terms of safety, we have an inherent risk now. Everyone is made known of it before entering the sport (except the professor of adventure) and can't go around suing people for their own mistakes (which I think would also result as BASE gets more organized)

Imagine if we had BASE jumping become like skydiving. You do your AFF at the bridge, pass all the steps and are "cleared to solo". I see a lot of people skydiving that make a lot of stupid mistakes. Luckily you have about 59 more seconds to deal with them. I've definitely made my fair share too, but I am talking a complete lack of awareness. Most of these people haven't done other sports that prepare them for a situation in which they are facing dire consequences in a minimal amount of time. My whole life I have been skiing, going inverted, mountain biking, etc which has given me a good background of reaction time. Most people don't do this and I think it's evident in today's BASE accidents. Obviously the most skilled can still have something go wrong, but there's some preventable stuff too.


***most of this is applicable towards the US culture. So don't get too mad at me Euros :).

I would have to disagree with this statement and I could probably give a good argument as to why it is just the opposite.

I can tell you you what is a partial factor... The Sierra Club. Since its inception the sierra club was a big supporter of Yosemite and the National Parks and probably still is. They essential grew up together... They also have a long history with climbing (see 1931 in timeline) http://www.sierraclub.org/history/timeline.aspx

Needless to say they have a lot of pull with the NPS and sometimes they can use that weight to get what they want. Climbing is tolerated because it has a history with both the Sierra Club and Yosemite. BASE doesn't have such a long history and our relationship with the NPS is far from what the Sierra Clubs relationship with the park is. So, when it came time to 'outlaw' it in Yosemite, the Sierra Club voiced their opinion against having jumping in the park and the NPS didn't need much more of a push, they did however get another push from a Yosemite legend, Ansel Adams. He too disliked the idea of parachuting in the valley.

Yes, there have been plenty of people making requests and they get the same basic letter, denying a permit because BASE doesn't fit in with the purpose of the park, etc. One of the better chances at someone getting a jump was someone backed by a congressman and possibly a senator(I'll have to go back and look and the paperwork)

Very true, but it can easily change. I like the idea of organizing but I also agree with Mithpee and don't like regulations very much. We can organize and have rules for certain things but no one can be forced into them.

As far as organization goes, I have some ideas. I'm actually looking at the bigger picture and trying to create something that will tackle many of the issues we have in BASE today. I see a group of entities both public and private that deal with the following issues:

Business
- team to set up and manage the best possible entity structure for the benefit of BASE as a whole. Charities, non profits, trusts, foundations, etc.

Access
-Legal group that actively attempts different legal tactics to gain access to various places.
- Site acquisition group that works on buying or securing various places to jump.

Safety
- Group actively working on making the sport safer... working very closely with the education department below

Education
- group that works on setting a strong training curriculum for students and teachers



Fundraising
- group that actively fund raises by various methods. (I have a few ideas)

.Public Relations
- Getting out the good word of BASE!

Competition
- group that promotes competition. most of the rules would be in this section.

Member services
-Insurance
-etc.

Conservation
-a group to conserve our history in various ways.


Just a quick rundown of what has been swimming in my head for a while. It's an attempt to promote BASE on many levels.

Mitchpee -

Last thing I want to be is condescending...but I do believe we have a serious problem here. You said, "I like the sport as it is and the direction I foresee it heading" ...so where do you see it heading? discrimination and creating idiots like the professor?

I like your post, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say with the last paragraph.

With organization, I think we can simply start by working on the things that we KNOW (collectively) can be improved...ie safety/education.

I definitely understand the benefits of a mentor/contact the locals...but what happens when the local/mentor is someone like the professor? You could say, "choose wisely"...but the prof. Is just one of many bad examples...I'm not suggesting that we put on BASE Police Badges and start regulating the world...but I think we could at least start with a set of accepted standards.

BASE570 - Nice! What do you mean with, 'It can easily go the other way'

Does anyone else think we could start with some kind of collection of standards for training? Obviously self regulation would be another animal.

No-one told this farmer:

WHAT PILOTS SEE
WHEN LANDING AT OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE....

A farmer does this with his tractor. He uses GPS to get the letters readable.
He has done this every fall for several years now.

Here's the view from the flight pattern into OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE
( Bellevue , NE., just south of Omaha ).
This is what your servicemen see when landing at Offutt AFB.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant here but a distinction needs to be made in order to be clear.
Organization and regulation are two separate things and just because we may want to organize does not necessarily mean that the organization needs to or even could regulate everyone. You can organize and make regulations for your organization and it's members only. Non members can't be controlled by an organization they are not contractually obligated to, can they?

I don't believe I said that. Were you referring to when I said, 'it can easily change"? If so then I just meant that BASE's lack of organization can change. All it takes are a few dedicated individuals who love the sport, want to give back, think on a large scale for the benefit of all jumpers and can be trusted enough by the majority to hold their interests in good faith.

BASE570 - Yup, that's exactly what I was asking about. Thanks.

As for the organization/regulation/standardization convo...Yeah, in the evolution of things, I think it should kind of go...
1 -Organization - build a group of people with common goal(s).
2 - Standardization - Decide how to measure progress toward said goals
3 - Regulation - Kind of a final (not necessarily reqd step)...reward the masses based on performance measured against set standards. This could be anything from recognizing outstanding training centers, recognizing specific trainers, recognizing specific jumpers/achievements...whatever.

As you said, you're not going to be able to regulate those that aren't a part of the organization...but you can make it painfully obvious that idiots like the professor of adventure just plain don't belong.

-ben

I think care needs to be taken when approaching this. If you ostracize people then you will get blowback. It's not about belonging or not belonging because deep down many of the people that are the most rebellious are the ones who want and need to be accepted the most. They are acting out to get attention and acceptance even though for the most part the attention backfires on them.

BASE570, you've just said something that I've been thinking for quite a while now. I respect others' opinions but we should respect people too, even those who've made huge mistakes.

Everyone makes mistakes.

Frank.

The gov wants accountability, Make some bs rules so that when they die they have broken the rules. I am not joking.
Take care,
Space

I have no doubt you aren't joking!

Rule #1 - Gravity

Rule #2 - Personal Responsibility


The individual is the only one accountable. That should satisfy the government!

You are right that everyone makes mistakes, what happens after those mistakes is vital. As individuals we need to be personally accountable to ourselves and the group. As a group we should be less critical of mistakes and work towards a more accepting environment. It seems many 'mistakes' could be prevented by having a competent mentor available. Mentors could stop people from exiting from the wrong spot, help prevent basic gear mistakes and even could quell the desire to act a fool.

So, I see personal responsibility as first and foremost and community responsibility a close second. It's a tough sell in a sport that has a lot of people that are on the fringes of society and is an inherently selfish activity.

I believe that we need to act more like a family or community and build something strong from within to overcome the obstacles we may face both individually and as a group.

Here is a little information on discrimination, straight from the NPS. It's talking about discrimination in the workplace but the concepts can translate to other areas. http://youtu.be/tig5Tatr0tw

As I was looking at the Discrimination wiki page I saw that they had all these fancy names for different types of discrimination and I thought maybe we need to show that there is a history of discrimination and a fear or dislike in general of the sport. It would help our case to have a wiki page... maybe call it BASEphobia or Paraphobia or BASEism (like racism or sexism)

Base 570 -
I really like your logic.

Here's how I see this going - building our own sport up with organization, and eventually interacting with outside agencies/society

1 - Build a database to collect information on jumps (names optional)
This data would be biased, but extremely valuable to build a set of techniques that could be later accepted as procedure
2 - From this info we could build accepted standards of training (ie...packing training? A certain minimum time spent on packing...exit training a certain number of 'practice jumps'...etc)
3 - Once this has been accomplished, I think that the other 'fringe duties' of the organization will be fulfilled as they are required.

I was suggesting earlier that we 'ostracize' those who obviously don't belong, but not in a negative way, "You don't belong...we don't talk to you..." but instead in a positive way, "we are a group of jumpers dedicated to a higher standard of safety/practice...do you fit that bill"? This allows people to make as many mistakes as they want, and still return to 'the sport' ...much in the same way you can drink on friday and go to church on sunday ; )

space - As far as BS rules/laws go, I don't think it would hurt - how do you forsee it helping?

Base570 - can you answer my earlier question about 'what happens if the mentor is a bad mentor'?

discrimination - yup - one of many good reasons to organize. history repeats itself - the application of this aerial delivery thing is akin to the application of the laws back in the civil rights movement.

Sorry I am not trying to single you out or anything, but I respectfully disagree with the idea you're presenting.

I think that BASE is one of the most self-exploration involved sports I have ever come across. You have to be able to develop your own limits under constraints of personal pride, weather/emotional/unknown factors, and sheer bad luck. In essence, your BASE career should be an adventure catered to you, not a mandate determined by other people. This is what makes it fun, exciting, and fresh. Yes it adds a factor of danger, but I believe it makes us grow more as BASE jumpers. There's also more information and better technology coming out every day that is helping to reduce this risk which has nothing to do with an organization.

Some people are comfortable doing a gainer their first jump and come out fine, some people need to do 10 PCA's. My first jump was a handheld in a headwind and I felt perfectly fine with that. Personally I would laugh if someone told me I had to have a minimum time spent packing (or lack thereof if you've seen some of the unique trickery at the bridge) or even that I had to jump into a pool 7 times before I could jump off the bridge. Besides, belly flops hurt.

I like the mentor/mentors system. Being involved in the community and having experienced people help assess your skills gives personal attention to your problems/strengths. I can only see BASE losing the overwhelming sense of personal accomplishment that makes it so special and unique as we introduce monotonous training requirements.

I love the database idea though and strongly support an area for public knowledge (although this forum pretty much covers that) to be displayed for all to learn from. The key is giving people the information and having them interpret it, not forcing it down their throats.

I seriously think that the 'US skydiving' world has been scarred by the USPA.

...I don't think we need to force anyone to do anything. I think we should develop a set of best practices and simply suggest/present them to those who are interested. Yes, things are changing (mostly for the better), and yes we have tons of information here in this forum, but I think that both of these things could do with some more organization.

I would love to legally jump more objects in my
own country, especially the mountains, which
are collectively owned by US citizens, voters,
and tax payers!!

As any thing increases in size so does its complexity.
As any group increases in number, well um sadly the
quality usually decreases. Getting my wife and I to
a movie on time is cake, organizing a dozen friends
to see a flick is a cat-herding-pain-in-the-ass.

Nonetheless, I do support organized efforts to get
better access and have volunteered to do any of
the economic projections to help sell a decision
maker on the positive economic benefits to a
city from allowing BASE jumping.

Pride?? what the fuck?? I am not competing with
Miles for who has more jumps. I am not competing
with Jesse Hall to see who can throw a gainer from
the lowest exit. I am not competing with Tree to
see who is taller. They all 3 win! I am just happy
to call them friends and say we have jumped.

On the flip side, I feel proud to stay within my
limits and resist dumb urges. My pride is not
affected at the exit point because some kid
21 years old does a "stow and throw" before
I go hand-held and take 1 or 2 seconds.

I am proud that I have pushed the scared little
kid from my childhood to grow up, over come fear,
to accept death, and to live his life to the fullest,
complete with great adrenaline junkie friends.

Douggs, who many agree is one of the best all
round jumpers in the world, has said many times
he usually likes to stay around the 80% mark,
meaning he keeps a little reserve so when (not if)
shit happens he has a margin of error.

We need to impress upon our new members that
going slow and long is much better than going in.

I don't know maybe death, injury, swollen head syndrome, twisted ankle, broken finger, wrong exit, poor weather condition jumps, nothing at all etc. Any number of things really.

I believe there can be a middle ground.

You can't take away that personal aspect of BASE, (who would want to?) but you can develop an advanced environment to nurture new jumpers with the most up to date information. You can also have a rating system that in no way stops anyone from doing their own thing but does offer a snapshot of a jumpers abilities. This can help to determine what they need to work on to be a better all around jumper. It can also be a determining factor to be able to participate in certain sanctioned events. This in turn may give the owners of the potential jump site more of a warm fuzzy about allowing such an event.
Training requirements don't have to be monotonous or boring. They just need to have some thought put into how to make them a little more fun.

It's too bad this thread has faded to the second page, I was hoping it would spark more dialog and ideas.

I would love to see the idea of an organization progress instead of stagnating so I am going to go out on a ledge and start the process of getting like minded people together to discuss ideas and move forward, even if just small steps at this point.

There is no reason why we can't put together something that is beneficial for the community and forms a foundation that we can build up over the years. Like I said in a previous post, I'm looking to go beyond just trying to gain access to National Parks and other places, I'm looking at building an organization that is multifaceted that gives back to BASE in many ways.

If you want to help progress BASE and are willing to put in some time and effort, send me a PM. I will organize and host a conference call so we can discuss ideas and brain storm in real time. I'm thinking the call can happen in a week or so.

Im in

Of course im in! Im more then happy to help anyway I can.

I go back and forth frequently as to whether legalizing Yosemite would be good or not. On one hand, it is one of the most amazingly beautiful places in the world, and it would be great to be able to jump there. On the other, I would hate to see it turned into a swiss valley or bridge day type of atmosphere where people are having contant close calls, though I do think the time and energy neded to hike to the exits would keep people away. I agree with the post that said that we should focus on the less visited national parks first, because they might actually have interest in increased traffic, where yosemite is already overcrowded in the summer and frequently has traffic jams.