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Had some guy interested in buying my TLs setup. Seamed keen, gave him my cell number, and he calls me today.

When I asked him his Skydiving and BASE experience he said he had 74 skydives and 42 BASE jumps! Refused to sell him my kit.

Dont know if he is a scammer as he could hardly talk english, but if he is legit I didnt want to be responsible for his demise. Hopefully no one is mentoring this twat!

He contacted me through this site, located in London England, and calls himself 'Bartek'.

Just FWI incase he tries it on with someone else.

T.

offer to be his camera man!

you could sweeten the deal by offering a money back guarantee for his next of kin!

Bartek took the Apex FJC here last fall. He hung around in Twin Falls for a while afterward to continue jumping. He has a complete rig that he bought from Apex when he took their FJC.

He really does live in London, and english is not his first language.

To head off confusion, Bartek is a fairly common Polish name, and there is another Pole named Bartek who is in town now, has several hundred skydives, has completed his FJC and plans to stay for a few more weeks to make more jumps.

If you are having trouble telling the Barteks apart, feel free to PM or email me.

Tom, you know we have a Bartek (G) that comes to NLSC?

Thanks for the info Tom. Still not going to sell him my rig with under 100 skydives! I thought the FJC's required a minimum of 100-200 skydives. Oh well, Good luck to him...

Hey Craig. No, didnt know that. Wont be there much this season unless Loll needs an extra camera. Hope your good mate.

hello everyone!

Thoma, I really appreciate The Warm Words under my name. In the matter of fact I've told you, I got 75 skydives and 60 base jumps, now 62 :) it just indicate how annoyed you got. anyway this thread says everything...:/

Tom A., yes we've met at the perrine bridge last year where I took the APEX course. Thank you for all the help I received from yourself.

Cpoxon, yes I skydive at NLSC but I don't think we've met. For 2 reasons, one I am rather quiet guy, two my life at the DZ was not easy :) but when I look back, somewhat funny. Oh, there might be third reason maybe my english is really that bad ;)

As to the TLs container it is not a rocket science to pack with trough loop system, moreover it can be packet in regular way. I've seen it and I had it in my hand. During the FBJ course I discussed many different gear set ups with experienced jumpers and no one, ever said that new jumpers must not, under any circumstances, get TLs.
I have rigged my new equipment myself and I learned how to pack myself. And if I've learned one way I can learn the other way. I didn't and I don't expect anyone's help with the gear because all the info is available, you just need to make some effort to find it. Of course I do appreciate others opinions and constructive criticism. I am not Mr know it all! but I know what I know and what I don't.

It probably looks for you that what I am saying means everyone can just step into the sport but that is not my message. there are just "other ways" like paragliding in my case. I've learnt, on my own, how to control a canopy, how to pack reserve parachutes and of course how to use them haha shall I feel bad about it? shall I apologise all the "Skygods Skydivers" who thought that skydiving is the only way into the sport? Maybe I would improve much further if I have received any help from experienced guys but I didn't never mind why. Most important is that I didn't hurt anyone or myself doing this shit.
I am pretty sure that, You Guys know by now that there are base jumpers without hardly any skydiving experience, if none at all. And I am not taking this as an example because I skydive to learn and improve my skills, base jumping skills!

Blue skies!
Bartek

???
So you are calling on the base jumping community to not sell him a rig? 74 skydives and 42 base jumps is acceptable for some people and not for others. How bout you just tell everyone that you decided not to sell him a rig?

I don't understand some people's hatred for people getting into the sport with a "low" number of skydives. I can understand when people want to preserve the sport and limit the amount of people that start unprepared. But I'm convinced that more often than not, the hatred stems from personal ego and not from concern for the jumper or the sport.

who gives a shit how many jumps the guy has, its his life let him do what he wants. Ive sold gear to someone with no base jumps and i didn't bother to ask how many skydives he had because i dont care. If the person i sold the gear to wants to be a dumbass and go jump with no experience thats his prerogative.

If he buys used basegear without knowledge, well, then Darwin is still king and after a few jumps all will soon be back to normal ...

I agree its totally his life

anyway I've noticed the OPs pompous do-gooder attitude seems to be quite common in the timid sheeple who make it in to base.

they read everything on the best practice and recommendations and latch on to it as if it is some kind of talisman that will completely protect them from bad things happening

if someone then has the audacity to chose a different path (or doesnt actually give a fcuk about their well-,meaning advice) their panties get all bunched up

I've jumped with Bartek here in the UK, I had no problem with his low skydiving experience, and seemed to come across a heads up jumper, your always welcome back to my local mate :)

Some thoughts:

These thoughts don't really relate to Bartek. They are more general thoughts. It's always most useful to evaluate people individually, based on their individual actions and decisions. I've seen guys with a thousand skydives who were less suited for BASE than guys with a hundred skydives.


It's reasonable to ask questions about someone's skills, preparation and judgment when selling them gear.

People are concerned about the other jumpers in their area for any number of reasons, but one of them is that they share objects. Incidents on a shared object can hurt the ability of other local jumpers to access it. It's perfectly valid for ThomaP to be concerned about who is out jumping his local sites, because he wants to be able to keep jumping them himself.


I am not personally capable of saying "well, that's your own damn fault" when someone dies on gear I sold them. I'm going to feel badly about that, and so I want to make sure that I feel good about how we got there. Different people will make different decisions about that, but I think that most people with the attitude of "what do I care it's his life" are probably fooling themselves about how they will feel if someone goes in.

I also feel some responsibility to the rest of the BASE jumpers in the world. It sucks if I arm someone with a rig, or training, or just friendly advice, and they then go home and create problems for other jumpers in their locality. I feel badly about the harm I've done to those other experienced jumpers every time this happens--and unfortunately it is going to happen no matter how careful you are about who you train/help/sell gear to. Carefully evaluating who I want to be involved with helps me to reduce the number of times this happens and also helps me feel better about it since I've done everything i can to avoid it.

Different people will have different standards for making these judgments. Some will try to evaluate people individually, some will set a hard and fast number of skydives, and some won't do anything at all. That's a choice made by each individual, and each individual must live with the consequences of those choices.

I recently also jumped with Bartek, and he seemed like a very responsible and able basejumper who was cautious and made sure that he stays within his current abilities. He bothered asking for the help of local jumpers, more than I can say for some other jumpers, and respected all advise offered to him.
He is keen to learn and improve his skills and share our ethos of site preservation, once again, more than what I can say of many other "well regarded" jumpers out there.
Funny thing is, I know quite a few jumpers who had very limited skydiving experience when they started jumping and a few who never bothered going on a FJC. Others simply lie about their jump numbers. All of whom are now Highly regarded basejumpers!...And, ironically, the first ones to shoot new guys like Bartek down...
I think, like previously commented, it is the EGO's of certain skygods and self -proclaimed basejumping experts that is the real reason for these negative comments...something seemingly adopted from a similar attitude in the skydiving community.

I for one are very happy to jump with Bartek and sell him any gear that I might have to sell...if he ever wanted it. Ofcourse he might die tomorrow in a base accident, but so could any of us.

And by the way...it has been my experience that some of the best jumpers out there speak with a funny accent! ;)

One last thing...for all you skygods out there...basejumping is by far not the most dangerous sport out there, neither is it rocket science. We just like to think so because it makes us feel so ..EXTREME!!! Wind in the ego's lads....you are not special because you have a few hundred jumps under your name...

I don't want all the objects overrun by jumpers either, but if someone wants to learn and is going to do it anyway(most of us), I would rather help them do it safely and covertly than refuse to help them and then have them fuck it up (and themselves in the process).

Laters...

generally speaking, I hate grand generalizations as have been made in this thread.

risk profiles differ.
this can lead to differences in how people jump.
it can also lead to differences in whether or not someone "encourages" others to jump.

jump numbers alone never tell the entire story either. (for example, "impulse control" remains a critical safety element, but it rarely gets discussed.)

ascribing motivation to "egos" and "skygods" is just as limiting as viewing the jumper in question as "unprepared."

evaluate each object on it's merits.
evaluate each jumper (or potential jumper) on their merits.

Sent you a PM re:statistics on other sports you are thinking of.

Thanks.

Fair enough...Maybe I am generalizing a bit. I am merely giving my opinion and this is my experience I have had so far. All I am trying to say is that SOME of the more experienced amongst us are sometimes a little bit to quick to judge the less experienced. And because they followed a certain route to develop their skills( skydiving or basejumping, etc.) does not mean it is the only way, or even the best way.
I am sorry if I came across a bit harsh - just upsets me when people shoot others down when they have never even met said person - so I guess I went and did the same!!

nope, everyone (including me) stereotypes.

highly enthusiastic wannabees appear here, eager for help. when they make no effort to fill in their profile, read anything that is published to make it easier for them, and appear to do nothing to help themselves, I can be harsh. some would say I'm being a dick, but I can only respond to what is presented. they present themselves as lazy and clueless. (and that may NOT be accurate.)

alternatively, I love those that lurk for a year and read everything. they show initiative and a desire to dig. I feel I can trust these people to take responsibility for themselves. (yet, they may never develop sufficient skills...)

those that want to include everyone, surely get upset at me at times.

BASE requires each jumper to have an opinion and stand by it. it requires each jumper to be confident in their opinion and to risk their health. but, mistakes happen...

Both of you, ThomaP and Bartek live in UK, why not just have few jumps together and see about experience yourself?

I don't ask any questions when I sell base gear on the internet.

I see moral obligation to. I may refuse if I knew someone to be mentally unstable, but otherwise it is not of my concern or liability what happens after it is out of my hands. These systems do have warning labels.

whoops, I meant to write that i see "no" moral obligation to... typo.

I say leave the barteks alone and kick yourself for missing out on a fair sale to a level headed jumper

I have never really understood the issue here. Ferrari, Ducati, Honda or Chevy have never had issuues with selling a high performance vehicle to any one with the money. Why are we any different?
Wouldn´t it be preferrable to start from the very beginning with suitable equipment that was your own?
It obviously shows a level of dedication by the new jumper if he has purchased appropriate equipment and learnt to pack.
Is it possibly just the sentimental value of the equipment?
If somebody with 42 jumps under their belt wanted to buy my gear, I would have no issue.

FYI Guys...I was actually at the bridge during his FJC and what is failed at being conveyed is that the guy has a shit ton of paragliding experience...like 500 hours. I questioned why Apex allowed this and it was definitely the exception and not the rule. BTW, he killed it at the FJC. He did a far better job than people have seen with 1,000's of jumps.

There is a jumper that I am close friends with that has 80+/- skydives, 1,000+ BASE Jumps now, but over 3,000 hours paragliding and he fly's circles around almost anyone on here under canopy.

On a side...I would not have sold him my gear either unless I had the blessing of JP, Marta and the guys he jumps with.

Dunny and jtholmes have hit it spot on. Ive never understood why people feel SO obligated to screen out potential buyers of base and sky gear. Fuck I was just at REI last night and bought $250 worth of climbing gear. Three different people helped me out from when I walked in to paying and not one single Q was asked about what type of climbing experience I had. Climbing can easily kill someone just like BASE. It is not the responsibility of the seller to make sure the buyers are "qualified". What is qualified anyway? What if a 0 base jump newbie wants to buy a used kit so they begin practice packing, etc before a course? I guess there are dipshits out there that would turn down a potential sale like this just because they want to "protect this almighty sport". I've sold a fair amount of used sky and base gear online and never once did I ask what experience they had. Shit never know someone could have gone in on my previous gear but it definitly wasnt do to faulty equ., more like faulty decision making.

Nuff said.

yea you guys are totally right, fuck responsibility when it comes to $$$. 10 minutes on the phone is all I need to sell someone gear.

Oh yea, the cops don't shut down the highway when some moron thats never ridden a motorcycle splatters himself. But, LB, ITW gets closer and closer every time a newbie bounces...

But in reference to the OP, seems a little excessive to post that a dude is going in with so little knowledge of his background...

"fuck responsibility when it comes to $$$".......

responsibility for what? or who? the person buying gear? if thats what you mean, Im not a babysitter nor will I ever be. the individual needs to be responsible for themselves, especially in this sport.

"But, LB, ITW gets closer and closer every time a newbie bounces..."

Keep in mind, a lot of the fatalities last year (and years past) were very experienced jumpers. death can (and will) happen to all of us

Exactly what I said. Who gives a shit about finding out if the person can take care of themselves when you could make a little coin... Your not a babysitter after all, and who gives a fuck what happens to them after the gear is out of your hands...

Is doing 200 skydives (to practice off-heading correction, freefall, tracking, while you learn more about BASE) asking too much? It's not that he is asking someone for 1000 jumps (which is what some of my skydive friends think they need before their first BASE) or even 500 jump or 200 jumps in 18 months (which is what you need to start wingsuiting in the UK.

I think the problem here is dedication. Whether it's on BASE, politics, banking, engineering, etc..., constantly ignoring what more experienced people tells you, is a clear sign that you do not want to dedicate time and money to make sure everything goes right! So I can't blame people for not wanting to get involved with him.

Things are no different when you become an experienced jumper. If you get 400 base jumps, die doing a gainer from a low object or proximity flying and didn't prepare for what you were doing, it'll still be for lack of dedication.

I don't intend to bash Bartek's reputation here. I assume Bartek is a nice guy, just like I do with all of the base jumpers I haven't met, and I look forward to meet him someday here in the UK. However, I don't think what he is doing is right.

It doesn't matter if you are the "extreme" guy in your family, group of friends, school, college or work. Everybody here is that guy! When an experienced extreme guy recommends you to prepare yourself better, be a bit humble and take on his advice. Stop thinking you're the extremest of the extreme guys. It will only make you look like a numpty and that's what people will start calling you.

Met him and jumped with him in Italy this past weekend. Seems heads up and playing the game conservatively.

Bartek.. nice to meet you and thanks for the ride back up to get our car. Your driving is much more scary than your BASE jumping. Haha! :) Cheers!

just curious as to how an FJC, particular from Apex, would let someone with considerably less than 100 jumps take the course?

Every FJC has it's own criteria for students. No one but Apex can tell you what their criteria is.

I do know that Bartek was quite up front about his skydiving experience when he was here, so I doubt he deceived them as to the total numbers.