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If you haven't yet, be sure you join the youtube slow motion trial here (http://www.youtube.com/html5). This will allow you to have a speed control button for lots of your youtube videos.


This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrNtSpOoX9w). Put the playback speed at 1/4 and click the time in the comment I made (37 seconds).

Notice at 0:42 the pilot chute is blown by the cross-wind to jumpers left. This makes the PC load the right riser before the left riser, causing the right side of the canopy to inflate first, leading to the 90 right.

Just a good reminder to expect ~45-90 OH into the wind if you do a short delay in a cross-wind.

a) what's with the pitch technique ??? you bring both hands ot the center and then pitch
Combine that technique with a snaggy GoPro and the crosswind from the right and you have a situation where your groundcrew may have some very sellable footage.
b) I think your TG let go early, and that's a big culprit for the offheading

a) it looks pretty bad from that angle, but it was an issue I had earlier on and have worked on since. In that jump, my bridle never got within range to tangle on the camera (lot easier to see on the camera's view).

-much closer than it should have though

b) Is it just the TG early release or could the early release be due to the right side of the canopy being forced to inflate first since the right riser loaded first (TG early release because of riser loading)?

I might be missing something, but at 00:42, it looked like the pc sat overhead, not to the left.

the wonky body position and flailing limbs could mean non-even shoulders. are you sure that had no impact?

What if it was 180? You're ~10ft from the A and crosswind won't be decreasing/canceling your forward speed.

@wwarped - It inflates overhead and is pulled to the left. It might have not been what caused it...can never really know, but it just seemed like a pretty classic, wind blows PC, canopy inflates into wind. When I jump in a cross wind, I make sure I consider those factors. I just thought it might be a good perspective since the dark PC and canopy were against the sky it is pretty easy to see the PC movement. What do you mean by wonky body position and flailing limbs? yes, it isn't a stretched out arch, but the exit body position is far from wonky and the limbs more twitched than flailed...had they been swimming and severely affecting shoulder position, that would be another story.

@yuri. Then the 180 would be better than a ~140 right which would have had me going straight into the object. A 180 would have me facing the object but with the cross wind + theoretical 180, it wouldn't be as bad as a 180 in no wind. Also, if it had been a 180, I don't know what would have happened. I may have turned away from the object or hit it...isn't it kinda that way for everyone? On a low object like that without the option for a running exit, I would decide beforehand to do a MINIMAL riser correction to avoid impact which would involve one side of my canopy stalling while the other side is in deep brake setting, the next result of which would be that, upon riser input, the canopy would no longer be flying forward and could very easily go backwards (though not for long if you don't want to stall it into the ground).


EDIT to add: I agree that without taking certain things into consideration, this type of jump can be much more dangerous. I was aware of the snag potential of the camera as well as the crosswind being to jumpers left (opposing direction of pitch). This lead to me taking a ~1s delay and throwing very hard (hence the near-wave off...the PC reaches full extension to the right in spite of cross wind). This jump was at the fuzzy-end of the edge of what I consider acceptable level of risk for me to jump. It's not conditions I'd chance often.

Personally, I think it has to do with 1. Crosswind.. Think of your canopy as a windsock, which theoretically it is 7 windsocks sewn together, it is going to capture and open into the wind. 2. I think the body position aka flailing legs (was more then a twitch) doesnt help, flailing leads to leaning in harness, which is loading riser a riser before the other.

also, off topic, but i watched your other point of view (1st person) and saw your PC folding, messy. take more time.. really get that bridal neat, personally, that is way to much excess bridal coming out the bottom, just waiting to snag that GoPro when you bring your arms in to pitch.

My 2 cents.

I'm still working on the twitching. It seems to happen on any jump where I'm much more afraid than normal or am having a hard time getting into the relaxed head space. This was my first jump off that object and it's a 250' A (w/ 1 second delay - necessitated by cross wind) with 2 main LZs divided by the barbed fence (was nervous about making sure - especially in a 180/etc - that I could quickly assess where I should land). I've noticed that the jumps I enjoy the most are also the ones with the best body position (when I'm relaxed and calm on launch). My second jump off it solo (the one you said you also looked at) was a much better head space (my voice on exit was really calm).

I'm really careful in the folding, but I must be making the bridle s-folds longer than most. I just always figured that I'd have to wave off with my hand above my head (loops getting near the gopro) for it to be an issue...but now that you've had me thinking about it, even though it may be unlikely, it's always better to err on the side of caution. I'll start s-folding the bridle in smaller folds.

Thanks for the friendly input!

I don't want to sound like an ass, and it's not that I'm an expert or anything. But what I'm saying here can be backed up by what the old timers like Real Yuri, Dwain, etc. would say (search the forum, I'm too lazy to dig it up). Jumping wind-penetrable object with no adequate separation in configuration/conditions that do not make the strike physically impossible is simply retarded. It's a Russian Roulette. In case of worst-case scenario (140/180/whatever) you won't have time to even say "shit". "the canopy would no longer be flying forward and could very easily go backwards" all sounds easy in theory, but in practice it's not.

"I may have turned away from the object or hit it...isn't it kinda that way for everyone?" It is, for everyone who plays this Russian Roulette, but it's not the reason to do it, too. The whole life of jumping is better that any one jump. No jump is worth trusting your life to a roulette like this.

Just close your eyes and imagine scales... On one side, many many years of jumping, seeing beautiful places, enjoying advances in technology, etc. On the other side, one stupid birdshit-covered antenna, one jump, one moment of high - and the light goes off, or maybe worse yet, becoming a vegetable.

It's just not worth it. Of course, IMHO, YMMV.

what were the winds doing on that jump? they looked like they were above 10mph.

just curious if it is common practice for other jumpers to jump in Right to left winds and if so what their threshold is for wind speed? I typically dont even make the drive out if its going to be a right to left cross wind.

So i take it you climb down if you are on a low A in no winds? Or do you even jump low A's? Or low anything for that matter. Even in no wind conditions, you should be able to correct from a 180 before hitting the object. Deep breaks and fast reactions. If you hesitate, or miss a toggle, or have a linetwist ect..... well, you may just be fucked. But that is base jumping.

We arn't all terminal wall jumpers with winguits. Object strike is always a possibility, which is why you always need to be ready for it.

And as much as hitting an A would really suck, I don't think it is as black death as you are making it sound. I have seen it personally 3 times, and heard of several others, and none have resulted in injuries. Now that I wrote this, im sure I will die on an A strike. If that happens, feel free to bump this thread and call me retarded.

I was just saying that it was LESS dangerous than a similar sized building jump in no wind with a good LZ. I agree that if it's wind penetrable, it's much safer to have a tailwind. I should have just waited for a tailwind. I normally do jump in tailwinds. It's just one of my dicier jumps.

It isn't Russian Roulette for the 180. I'll agree that it's (if the crosswind isn't STRONG enough to blow you away) Russian Roulette (except where you are shot randomly in a vital or non-vital organ) for a 180 with twists on a short delay object without turbulent windflow. For me...every now and then (lower objects), that is a risk I'll take.


Actually think of it this way. Let's say my canopy speed in DBS is 5mph. The wind is 15mph (probably around that in my case...maybe a couple higher). That means for every 1 unit I go toward the tower, the wind is blowing me 3 of those units to the side....which means if I only had 15ft object separation (and that's at FULL INFLATION...not pitch), that'd put my canopy 45ft to the side of my exit point...and I'd miss the tower. boo-yah

EDIT: Lol the last part of that is pretty much exactly what halfpastniner said.



@subterminallyill Actually for a free-stander, stronger crosswinds are better than low cross winds. IF they are so strong that with your exit separation and packed in deep brakes, the crosswind would push you away from the tower avoiding object strike in the case of a 180 (like it COULD have in this case - notice I jumped a CORNER into the cross-wind...this way, if I did have a 180, the wind could well blow me away from the tower anyway). Also, you'd need to consider that a stronger cross-wind might mean higher chance for an off-heading opening of GREATER than 90degrees.

What if the pc blew under your arm?

cross-wind against Pitch-Hand side . . higher chances of blowing under-arm on a PC pitch if it's Stowed .
Hand-Held pitch has much better jumper control over the outside elements like cross-wind .
.
& a lot of ( what If's ) means nothing . What if ?

Looked like a good jump .
Except . Jumper just need big work on body positioning & awareness and grow on his skills .
along with bad body control, PC pitch technique was really bad also .
The Jumper just needs some work & experience .
.

i always wondered why a stowed pitch is more at risk of a under the arm wrap than a handheld pitch that is poorly throw?

to me they are the same thing... the direction in which you flick your wrist!

if you are flat and stable and go stowed you typically deploy the pc by grabbing the exposed pc with your right hand... you deploy with the palm of your hand facing forward. Correct?

when going hand held you throw the pc straight out forward right?

if you are in a right to left cross wind that is strong enough to blow the pc the instant it leaves your grip, going hand held and throwing the pc backwards like the OP does means unless he releases the pc with his palms facing up which is extremely awkward he runs a huge risk of getting the pc and/or bridal wrapped under the arm. to me that is not a risk im willing to take.

but hey... in pussyville we don't take risks like you do ray!

to the OP. be careful dude.

Looked hella sketchy. The clap-n-pitch thingy, the exit side, the direction you jumped, the running man flail. Be careful bro, 250 doesn't leave much room for error. I'm not talking trash, just voicing my concern from behind a computer because in real life I would hate to get beat up.
Nice object though!

Couldn't agree more =) At 50 jumps I'm just finishing learning what kills me and starting to learn the body awareness and confidence I need to be an experienced jumper. I'm looking forward for that day!

Bridle management/control. When you go handheld, your bridle will be behind you.

unless it ends up under you... then you will most likely die if you dont have enough altitude to sort it out!


FACT!

Exactly, and if you wave your PC around like you are waving off other skyjumpers then there is a good chance it will snag something (gopro, BOC, arm, whatever). Lesson here, OP should use this footage to help him sort out his own issues because if I wanted to see boring footage of 90's I'd watch VH1...no offense.

Yes, that is a fact. But the way the bridle is routed makes that event less probable. There's simply less variables in a hand held deployment. Of course, you're never guaranteed anything in this activity.

I like this thread, by the way. It's constructive. Props to the OP.

Whats up with doing a lefty HH?
It seems to bother some.
Take care,
space

that is the weirdest pitch technique i've ever seen.

other than that, looks pretty normal. wind happens. just like shitty body position.

The idea of that pitch is to bend your arms only at your elbows, bringing the PC in on your ear level and then throwing with both hands out. It's a symmetric, simple motion. I've also been experimenting with trying it the way a lot of other people do (the overhand throw forward) as well as the way you should pitch on really low objects (not actually going that low) where you pitch upwards upon exit.


Also, "Lesson here, OP should use this footage to help him sort out his own issues because if I wanted to see boring footage of 90's I'd watch VH1...no offense. ". And yet we give so much crap to the "youtube generation". I actively seek out footage of regular jumpers that don't have hundreds of jumps. I've seen enough gainers, front flips/rolls, and unpacked jumps to last me a lifetime. I have over 20 day jumps on video and there are plenty that look a hell of a lot nicer than this, but what does it say when we only post videos of us doing things right? I've seen way more HD wingsuit flights than I have beginner jumps, but which do I learn more from (especially when there is healthy criticism involved - even if it's not me)?

Also, people tend to immediately see anything different in BASE as black death. I think it's good to have a discussion about pitch technique, body position, and what constitutes the dangers we look out for. For example, I'm going to fold up my PC handheld and stand in my living room and see how how hard it would be to entangle on my gopro with that pitch technique...I would think that it's a lot harder than people are making it seem if your hand doesn't ever go any further left or higher up than your right ear. The motion was exaggerated on this jump because I was so scared of the wind blowing the PC that I threw it like it was a bomb. The jump in the video was definitely BAD pitch technique by any standard. My right hand went too far left. Maybe the post belonged in the beginners forum

@bounz the reason I exited that direction/side is due to the LZ and object height. Had I exited with a tailwind, and had any type of hesitation/offheading/etc I would have been in the trees for sure. The direction I exited has 2 LZs and an out. 1 is further away, not fenced in (which is primary and the one I made). Another is fenced in and has a few small obstacles (it was where I thought I may well land). The out is a thin strip of little bitty trees (ok to land on/in) next to the tower on the jumper's left. In the case of something going wrong and losing altitude and getting blown in the cross-wind, I could possibly land there as well.

If nothing else, you can't argue that it didn't get some discussion going =)


Also, to add...I didn't know about the html5 trial on youtube that allows you to watch in slow motion. Figured that was worth sharing as well.

What about the other side of the tower? No options? I did briefly see the tree so I get not jumping toward the camera, wasn't sure how big it was. Crosswinds can be pretty sketchy. And bridle wraps happen when you start adding variables like right to left wind, holding the PC while waving your arms, and so on. Remember as you fall the wind around you becomes more turbulent and the object itself can cause rotors so the way I was taught is that keeping your life-line as far from things like your head and camera isn't a bad idea. Just be aware dude, I'm sure you're a heads-up jumper.
Witness statements~~>#158_&_162

For me, short delays in any cross wind, especially a strong one is a no go, it has proven to me to give the highest possible change of off headings.
The right hand pitch, in a right hand cross wind wearing a top mounted go pro (recent fatality in KL due to this) is not so smart, you can't replicate the situation that causes this at home, I have done plenty of sketchy shit tho, part of base is rolling the dice, just understand when your doing it and don't do it too often. Good thread tho.

I thought there was a fatality last year with a girl that got her bridle entangled in her GoPro, where is that fatality list anyways.. We don't need to do every possible mistake ourselves, do we?

I put a link to them in my last post but here they are again.#158_&_#162

Thanks Outtabounds! Too bad I can't get that site up at work :/ would u mind copy-pasting it into your previous post or send it by PM to me please :)

Makes me think more about the mount addition to the cross-wind. Looks like if I jump in similar conditions again, it will be sans camera for sure. I'll wear it when I dont have cross wind =)

I was aware of the risks beforehand, but in hindsight, why wear a camera unless it doesn't add much extra risk?

One thing to think about when going hand held and pitching the pc to the side is where the bridle goes when you release. If you route the bridle over the top of our hand between your thumb and forefinger (with your hand in the position like drinking a beer) and then pitch to the side, the bridle will pass around your hand and under your palm. Usually this goes unnoticed as the bridle just slips off the fingers as you continue to move your arm backwards but there is a possibility to complicate things especially with wind. This is why I now pitch forward and up.

I don't know if this is a huge concern but when it was pointed out to me by another jumper, it made sense and I changed my ways just in case.

I do like the simple idea of going left hand-held if you choose to jump low in right to left wind though.

Matt
SBC

I see two main concerns here. 1: off heading due to wind and 2: bridal going under arm/body...

thinking about the left hand throw.... wouldnt a right hand throw put the pc further to the right (meaning more straight above on line stretch as it blows over you) and yield possibly a little better heading performance than a left hand throw putting the pc way out to the left on line stretch and pulling the canopy further to the left?

I understand as the canopy inflates the off heading is likely regardless... but wouldnt a PC way out to the left influence this more?

Honestly, I feel that PC pull direction matters less than some other factors. Some might argue that, and thats fine, I'm a good listener. But I've had more more on headings than off headings when my PC pulls to the side. I think the greater contributing factor to off headings is that the canopy wants to inflate and pressurize into the wind. Throwing left handed would at least keep the death wrap away from the body. I'd rather live in a tree then die under a fully inflated pilot chute. Granted, with all of that said, I'm a big pussy and probably wouldn't jump when it's nuking cross like that. I'd stay home and post stupid pictures.

after my second to last jump I wont jump with non-ideal winds either...

just throwing it out there....

Body Position

I think the issue is less with the direction the pc pulls, but more of having the loose bridle and pc blow into your head/neck/ camera/ect. that is why I much prefer crosswinds from left to right instead of right to left. I had a bridle go under my neck like that once when I was very new. Left hand pitch makes a lot of sense to me in the R to L scenario.

Also, I don't think his body position was bad at all. The pitch maybe. The cool thing about pitching like that is he should be able to put the pc in his left hand and every other motion can stay the exact same.

Anymore, if its windy in a not so good direction, I prefer to stay home and drink beer and look at pictures from outtabounz anyway.

Edit to add I guess I just repetated what you said. Oops

the only time we can cleary discuss last jumps and when they occur is when someone makes the BFL...


left hand pitch +1

my statement is based on this Jump . The Stowed Vs Handheld . With cross-wind against pitch-hand side .
This jump has little Air-speed in FF with the Hop-pop exit . With a hop-pop or Slider-down 1 or 2 sec. FF. The Jumper has more control & influence over the PC pitch against the X-wind going Hand-held over Stowed .
Now move the FF airspeed to several seconds . X-wind matters less with the increase of Airflow around your body with increased FF speed .
But : The jumpers bad Pitch technique in the Hop-pop, pretty much negated the advantage gained by going Hand-held on the Pitch with that X-wind .
- - - - - - -

>... "when going hand held you throw the PC straight out forward right ? "

That or 45-deg. out the side is most common & both good .
' Biggest thing with his Vid.' is that with the bad pitch Tech. the Jumper used . With him pulling both Arms in & then out again on the Handheld Pitch . He increased the odds of the X-wind letting the Bridal take command over him . he lost all the advantage going Handheld .
& that is where all the ' What If's ' . But all turned-out good . & like every BASE jumper out there. Now he gains more and better Technique & Skill as a beginner because he Lived .
- - - - - - -

That Handheld, Left-Side PC pitch with a Right-hand jumper sounds good .
I never used that Tech. before & it is something to think about & work-in & would have add whole new dimension even without X-wind to jumps I have done . Adds to those exits where you are going Handheld & also doing Side-Floater exit & others exits that limits your exit positions .
.

Nice!!!
Yep, that too.

That picture is a golden meow!!