Basejumper.com - archive

had some recent discussions on the subject.. and it got me wondering.

you know, a mentor will invest a shitload of time to his pup, may miss out on stuff they really wanna do, late night calls, whatever.

is it right for a mentor to actually ask for money in advance, kind of establishing some sort of "contract" (you give me this, i will teach you), or should it be more along the lines of "ok, i like you, i think you have what it takes, and i'll teach you!"!?

what are your thoughts on the subject!?

maybe i should add that i dont mean "paying for mentoring" in a way of paying for eventual travelling, food, drinks, lodging.. stuff that occurs when you go jump, but a straight-up forward paying!

i would say it depends:

if you have a friend that is a base jumper then i could see getting training free, other than trip expenses, food, beer, hotel, rent a car.

on the other hand if you dont have a friend that base jumps, it would be pretty foolish to think someone will take you under their wing and take a big risk on you with little to no reward.

i got lucky and had a friend in the business!

what means "little to no reward"!? maybe you cant "pay them back in jumping or knowledge", but every person has something to offer.

say, you wanna start a a buisness and dont know how, and your possible future pup has some knowledge, he can help you in that area. or he has access to crazy drugs or hookers. and you get a portion of that, in exchange for base-knowledge.. for me, that sounds like a pretty fair deal!

most of us started out with skydiving, then i't's a couple grand for AFF, gear, jumps and so on. i can SEE the point that paying for mentoring is something to evaluate, but personally, i think one should be mentored because you're a friend and know each other for ages, or you're a cool dude to hang out with and enjoy your time.

maybe this is old-school thinking, or you want to say it's typical of the "entitlement generation", but whatever it is, BASE seems very personal, and should be treated as such and not as a buisness.

what if your pup goes in!? will you brag about it on your website that he hasnt paid enough. or that he paid just enough and still was foolish enough to kill himself!?

would you not rather say if people asked, "he was a good friend, we spent a lot of time together and i passed all the knowledge i possibly could, and well, shit happens!"?

i've spoken to one of the VERY big names in the sport, he doesnt offer "training" as such, but he does provide it to friends. for no charge at all. it's one of his principles he says..

money always changes relationships, rarely for the better. and not that it would be on the books, but there's a huge liability issue in accepting payment for services.

" i think one should be mentored because you're a friend and know each other for ages, or you're a cool dude to hang out with and enjoy your time.

maybe this is old-school thinking, or you want to say it's typical of the "entitlement generation", but whatever it is, BASE seems very personal, and should be treated as such and not as a buisness."

i think this question is two fold.

i did not take a fbjc, i had a friend that i talked into mentoring me, he has a couple of "base pups or base kids" he is also an affi and tandem i, so he already knew how to "teach" i paid for everything but his plane tix when we went to perrine. and i feel like i got a hell of a deal, considering i have a friend for life and a very knowledgable mentor. i would not want it any other way.

but if this base wannabe is not a friend or even an acquantience, then things are different. if someone expects me to teach them just because im the local guy then they are mistaken. i love helping as much as i can, but if its base i have to trust the person whole heartedly. im not gonna show someone my objects that i dont know. unless someone i do know can vouch for them and take the responsability for that jumper being heads up about the ethics involved.

i understand your point about the possibility of the wannabe having some fringe benefits that could be beneficial in the future. but thats not why i base, i base for me, and the crazy drugs and hookers!

"i've spoken to one of the VERY big names in the sport, he doesnt offer "training" as such, but he does provide it to FRIENDS. for no charge at all. it's one of his principles he says.. "

i agree with this idea 100% FOR FRIENDS. and have seen some of "THE BIGGEST NAMES IN BASE" charge $1200-1500 for a fbjc to people that arent friends.
it is a business for them, thats how they make a living, that and tandem base.

im glad i had a friend in the sport that i could learn from, and agree this is the way base should be approached, i know my mentor likes the perks he gets from bringing me into the base world. he would be devestated if i went in,
on the other hand i believe there might be less devestation from a fbjc teacher if his student went in, as he has not spent the time and is not as close to the student as a true mentor.

I agree. IMO, someone who chooses to mentor accepts that it can be a daunting task. They have so much love and passion for BASE, they care not about seeking capital gains in exchange for lifesaving knowledge, but about the integrity of the sport even after they perish. What does a pup have to offer.. Other than paying for beer, gas, food, really whatever said preceptor wants, they carry on the legacy of their mentor. Fallen base jumpers live on through the newbs they've raised. Very personal stuff that you shouldn't put a price on. Maybe newbs should charge mentors for their willingness to carry the torch and keep their tradition alive . KIDDING. Plus if charging for mentoring became standard practice, I think you would be faced with an exponential growth in site burning. Inevitably people who can't or don't want to pay will wind up trying to teach themselves. No bueno. Again, just IMO.

For-Profit FBJCs can charge as much as $1200
for a few days of instruction and anywhere from
3 to a dozen BASE jumps off of a legal bridge.

Image knowing, skydiving, partying, hanging
out, answering questions, teaching packing,
traveling to the Perrine, PCAing, guiding,
hoping, teaching, and so... then returning
home and helping them get an A, later
maybe helping with another object, always
being willing to answer questions or be on
call for cell-ground crewing them, taking
them out, share objects, and more....

That kind of tutelage is worth more than $$$
I usually charge friendship, food, and beer

Of course good quality drugs are always a
big bonus too, plus eventually these kind
kids will say nice things at my wake.

as it stands for now, 71% say it should be "free", and those that chimed in agree for the most part.

what do the others have to say on the issue? i would also like to hear some voices on the con-side!

is he french ?

that would not be mentoring, it would be teaching/coaching.

There is no fjc in france. They are not legal here.

I didn't say "in France"

now u're just being a wise-ass and argue semantics..

and it's not really about the person, it's about the "idea" of mentoring; and i feel it's conflicting.

i dont know how many times i got phonecalls "i'm about to jump now here or there, i'll buzz you back in five if all went well, if not, send rescue". didnt take me much of my time, but it was a favor - for a friend. i got some responsibility as well. and this is what you get in return? i'm a little disappointed with this to be honest..

charge them 2.50 per minute for the phone-crewing
[horny german female voice]eins fünf sechs - null sechs neun - null sechs neun [/horny german female voice]

CALL

*whiplash*

ME

*whiplash*

UP

*whiplash*

maybe i should install a phone-crewing service actually; but more like 8 bucks an hour..

as of now, 4 out of 5 think the same way as i do; i think i'll be looking further anyway then!

still, for the 1 out of the other 5 guys, what are YOUR thoughts on the subject!?

There may be some differences but why couldn't/shouldn't this aspect of the sport evolve into something somewhat akin to the "mountain guide and his client"?

Jimmy P took the guy from Nat'l Geo under his wing for a price. You can bet they are far more than close friends by now. It is a very special relationship for someone to place their life in your care. The bond (with the right guide) is indescribable and deep.

Read Gaston Rebuffat's "Starlight and Storm".

jon

Wednesday I took two younger jumpers
out for some huck day fun from three
low freestanders. I rigged up my own
S/L and then would PCA each so we
got all 3 off in quick succession since
we were day blazing.

It is nice having some one trust you
enough to jump a rig you supplied
and not think twice about handing
you their bridle at the exit.

The seriousness of the act brings
out a realness and frankness that
is missing in everyday life.

^ I agree its like having a more than normal fucked up father that giggles with you at the top of the tower and shares your sentiment that "this shit is fuuuuucked" as he holds your PC while you're figuring out how to count to three so you can go off

This subject hits pretty close to home for me, I am in need of "guidance" to say the least. I run a auto shop and have two real great local jumpers. One is new school "just huck it" one is more oldschool "10,000,000 skyjumps" and ive been trying get on there good side but no luck. I have offerd up tires, work on cars, beer Ect. Ect. I researched local jumpers to find someone who i would trust to tell me to jump off a cliff... I didnt approach "hey make me a base jumper" i said "i wanna tag and ground crew ill drive handle gas buy dinner" but no luck. So yea at this point i would pay money. I paid forAFF and paragliding instruction why not base?

Maybe your entry credentials are questionable. Look into an FJC if you want to take the easy way into the sport.

Like i said not looking for some one to give me a 3 jump package deal. Just trying to fallow watch learn see what i should practice at DZ and make friends. And if it cost some money thats why i slave away...

I think it's completely reasonable to charge for mentoring. I have will continue to do so. Teaching someone to jump beyond a 1st jump course is time consuming, and stressful.

The time and money spent to become proficient enough to pass on skills is one reason to charge. Charging also keeps me, as the instructor accountable to my student. My goal is to give them the skills to surpass me as a jumper. It also keeps them accountable to me, if it's free, sometimes the value of the knowledge and skill being passed on isn't recognized. If a person doesn't see the value and are willing to pay for it, then maybe they don't fully realize what they are getting into, and how much effort and time is required to teach someone. The word "entitlement" comes to mind...

For me, BASE...and whatever other activity I have fell in love with, has always been about the people. The relationships and bonds is what drives me toward it. I love BASE for the same reason I love skiing with my wife and son...as a person I have a need to bond with people that I can care about. The idea of paying for mentoring sounds like an oxymoron to me. paying would be paying for a coach, or paying for private instruction.

The word mentor, from its origin in Greek mythology literally meant a trusted friend and counselor. You don't pay for that title, they are not for hire. If you pay for coaching, that bond will at very least begin without a deeply rooted emotional attachment that creates trusted friendships.

I am all for paid instruction in BASE. As popular as BASE has become it should be something you should consider when you embark on the journey.But don't call that mentoring right off the bat. It may become mentoring, and I know people who have developed a huge bond with the FJC instructors they worked with. But it wasn't a mentorship when they first decided upon the class.

I'm all for making money. And I'm all for mentoring. And sure, there are things that can link the two, but paid mentoring in my mind doesn't happen through a financial contract.

Just my $0.02

BTW, I'd love some tires...

Curious.. did you pay for instruction? Legal FJC's aside, I just wonder what the correlation is between those who think they should charge and were also charged themselves... and those who don't agree, and did not pay to learn. We're all a product of our "childhood"

I don't think it's entitlement at all. The idea of this trend just seems sacrilegious.. like the Benny Hinns of BASE or something. Bottom line, if what you ultimately seek is to profit, you'll charge. If not, you won't.

Edit- No I'm not religious.

Agree with Kevin. Money elevates the legal standard of care you are required to observe if you are the mentor. Not only that, money does strain friendship relations. Drop Zones are commerial organizations with no real personal attachment to the student. This is not the kind of relationship that works well with BASE. You know I'm old fashioned but other than covering expenses, I vote no on direct payment for services.
cliffleaper

I agree in the end goal being, best friends and great times. but to get there i would pay dues, weither its gas, time, money or a combination of all..

To amend my last vote of no, there is one exception and that is the organized first base jump courses out there. These folks do this for a living and do deserve payment since they invest their time and expertise and perform the service for people they do not know personally. Besides, some of these courses have helped get people into base jumping. The only BIG danger I see with that is a new jumper coming off of a fbjc, needs to know their limitations. They may have made a few base jumps, it doesn't mean they know enough to scout more difficult objects like buildings or cliffs on their own.

well, i got a handful bridge-jumps.. i could probably get away with jumping one or two sites, but, i think that would be stupid to no end. or i could just lie about my experience and just tag along to objects that are far beyond my experience level. that would be freaking stupid, and to add to that, i have just burned myself for ANY future mentoring or whatever. but maybe i would get away with that and sheer luck, chances are i dont.

now, i dont think my friend owes me anything, but from a moral and ethical point of view, wouldnt it be in their best interest to see me develop into a confident and competent jumper. "defining" that relationship over x amount of money.. well, i'm forced to believe my friend isnt that - a friend.

but what's moral and ethics, or even friendship, worth in this time, better resort to hookers and blow..

i think i'd be better off going to kjerag for two weeks, pay xx amount of money and huck the shit out of those cliffs. i'm having a break from everyday routine, a nice holiday, have a structured course.. and quite likely, i'm ready for more technical stuff.

In reply to:

^ I agree its like having a more than normal fucked up father that giggles with you at the top of the tower and shares your sentiment that "this shit is fuuuuucked" as he holds your PC while you're figuring out how to count to three so you can go off

those are the two quotes i'm liking best in this thread. they hold very true for a novice jumper and the relationship he holds to someone taking them along. and be it only for one or two jumps to give them a feel.

respect cant be bought.

and someone like that is what i believe is a mentor. love and passion for the sport, knowledge, a good sense of humour, serious and calm when the situation demands it.

I would say what I do would be considered a mix between private instruction and mentorship to be specific.

I paid for "guidance" in the old fashion way. Beer, ground crew, and helping with multiple projects work etc. But my intro was atypical, and I was extremely lucky but also was on my own figuring it out for myself much of the time.

In the absence of time,travel requirements, or possibilities to ground crew, and I don't drink, direct payment or trade is more practical.

Having a set amount agreed upon takes away the ambivilance, both parties know what is expected of them. Keeping track of beer, gas, etc and the value that each person puts on what they have contributed has the possibility to cause friction and disagreements if they don't agree and don't feel they got what was expected.

Thats a pretty drastic example, haha! I can see the BASE evangalists now, stripping people of their money on the promise of salvation

Have you been saved? CAN I GET A WITNESSSS.


You don't drink AHHHH you make Benny Hinn proud. No wonder no one wanted you on gc


So you actually paid a set amount to someone, and it wasn't a fjc? I'm genuinely curious to know if people really do that. I've not heard of that until now. Do you think you would still charge people if this hadn't been your first experience in BASE? Almost seems like a conditioned response. Do you charge everyone?


Soooo.. you think people will bicker over beer before they will bicker over dinero? *scratches head* This logic just isn't coming together for me.

I voted hell no, but then I've been doing this for 15 years and have brought in 3 people to BASE, ever, and one of them is my Wife. It's because I wouldn't charge and think it's a HUGE deal with stacks of personal commitment that I don't really have many mentees, at all. my one cent.

Ummm, read again... Your not really gettin it...

I was not charged a set amount. At the time i drank, and bought lots of beer, and did lots of gc.

I have taught several close friends and no money was involved.


Beer has no set cost. Someone can buy shit beer, or they can buy good beer. How many times have you seen people argue over beer? I've seen it hundreds of times... If you don't see the logic in taking away ambivalence, and both people knowing the cost up front, then i'd have to say your not very logical....

*You're*
Makes sense now that you've gone in and edited your post to add info that wasn't there before. Get it now, thanks.

*You're*
Beer ->is beer ->is beer, when it's free beer (unless it's shiner cheer, BLECH). I've only seen people argue over who's going to have the last beer, not what brand it was. Guess I'm not very logical. You win.

Haha! You read it exactly the way it is the 1st time. Maybe a little too much of the swill?

Like I said, I guess what I have done is more private instruction/ fjc/ mentoring. I try to include more info than an fjc in a time period less than a "mentorship" would probably be.

I won't rule it out

you mean that blow job I gave you for my first was not payment bitch! Love u brother!!!

Pauly

To quote Pangloss, in the best of all possible worlds
those who want to learn BASE jumping would already
be accomplished parachutists who have extensive
packing and rigging skills.

However, since most newbies these days want to
skip the 3 years, 1,000 jumps and 1,000 packjobs
it takes to be ready for BASE, it takes more time
to teach them things.

Most commercial FJC's are from 3 to 5 days long.

I have taken a guy from whuffo to a safe, skilled
BASE jumper with gear and a number, but takes
lots and lots of time and effort from both the
student and the mentor.

This guy showed up at the tandem factory I was
working at and would practice pack my BASE rig
for hours and hours while I hauled meat. He
now packs cleaner than most veterans.

What I am getting at is how much time it takes
to talk, show, demonstrate, explain, unpack,
examine, etc. Holding your bridle on the edge
before my jump is easy, getting you there with
more knowledge than a bag of dog food and
good chances of surviving is worth the time.

Also, some one earlier in this thread pointed
out that things that are given away are not
as valued. I periodically teach martial arts.

In the past I offered it for free, but students
did not take it seriously. Now I charge $20
a month, till they prove themselves, and I
get more dedication and practice from them.