Basejumper.com - archive

NPS morning report:

Ranger Randy Fisher developed information that a BASE jump group out of Ohio was planning on making multiple parachute jumps from the New River Gorge Bridge this last weekend. On the night of December 10th, as a full moon rose over the gorge, the ranger assigned to observe the bridge for activity heard and then saw several individuals parachuting from the catwalk below the bridge. The river was flowing around 20,000 cubic feet per second, very high for this time of the year. Due to the high water, the only place available for the BASE jumpers to land was the railroad track. The surveillance ranger watched as the jumpers were picked up by someone in a vehicle and was able to vector in rangers stationed nearby. Rangers stopped the vehicle a short distance away and found five people from Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana inside. They also discovered four deployed parachutes. A total of nine mandatory appearance citations were issued for trespassing, illegal air delivery, and for aiding and abetting illegal air delivery. One of the five had previously been cited by rangers for trespassing on the bridge while attempting an illegal BASE jump. Rangers Karl Keach, Randy Fisher, Nate Freier, and District Ranger Frank Sellers worked the case.
[Submitted by Jeff West, Chief Ranger]

OMG!?! Another sting operation by those filthy NPS rangers at NRG? Seriously, dont they have like trash to pick up along trails and and stuff?

That totally sucks. Don't them fuckers have anything better to do than hang out all night waiting for jumpers who aren't even bothering anybody??

If they would just let us jump from the catwalk outside of Bridge Day, the local community could make extra money and jumpers wouldn't be arrested. We're coming up on two years since they first asked for my proposal regarding legal catwalk jumping one weekend every month........

The fact of the matter is no they don't have anything better to do. They are not busting drug smugglers or serving high risk warrants, this is the most exciting thing that will ever happen to them in their wanna be law enforcement careers.

The shitty thing is that those being arrested are paying taxes that pay their salaries....

I hope the jumpers involved fair well with the outcome.

The noble Randy Fisher has been a very active BASE buster

http://www.nationalparksgallery.com/park_news/5699
Four hour interagency search ? Really ?

http://www.register-herald.com/...ed-parachuting/print
IR spotlight ?
Sheriffs AND Police helping with the search ?

http://www.nationalparksgallery.com/park_news/4786
blah

What a waste of resources..

I don't understand the title of this thread.

That being said, this sucks for everyone involved. Good to know some rangers got to pretend to be real cops for once. I know I will sleep safer tonight knowing these dangerous criminals were properly cited for such heinous crimes.

I fix for u

Actually, Randy is a decent guy (as far as I can tell) from meeting him and exchanging emails. He helped us retrieve the pilot chute that blew off a canopy in 2007 and offered to show me some kayaking spots on the New River.

He's a ranger and he likely was assigned to watch the bridge that night and enforce the law. Not sure how the NPS found out about jumpers in the area, but it is a small town. I'm not trying to cut the NPS some slack as I also believe they sometimes go overboard in catching jumpers, but that's the risk we take. Start hiking out of the gorge and they won't have any cars to stop at the top.....in other words, be smarter than your opponent.

How does ' Ranger Randy ' ( Develop ) hearing of the jumps beforehand ?
to much Trolling of the Twitter or Facebook or what ???? .
.

[rant]

Actually they don't have anything better to do. All the river guides are gone for the season, all the boaters are gone for the season, all the tourist are gone for the season, and all the legal BASE jumpers are gone for the season, all be it a very very short season. They are just doing their job. Its not like if they were fired for what ever reason, they would still give a shit about "illegal jumping", what ever that means. IF the NPS changed their policy, I'm sure they wouldn't protest it. If they were given orders to protect BASE jumpers from 'what ever', they'd do it.

It's like prohibition, all the cops were running around busting up stills. Now they stand in line at the grocery store with a six pack(or two) just like everybody else. It's the policy, not the Rangers. Agreed, there are a few select Rangers that live for busting BASE jumpers, when they could could be out looking for poachers, drugs, arsonist, rapest, people digging up plants and taking them home, people taking river rocks home to put in their garden, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.

Talking openly on a forum, which we all know they read isn't going to help. Would you(not you directly, but all of us) want to take sides or befriend someone who openly and constantly talks shit about you?

Ive jumped that bridge in the past when the oppertunity has presented itself, Im sure most of us have also. Yes the policy is unfair, but we do it knowing its illegal, if you get caught, you get caught. Its no different from any other illegal object in the US. The folks that got busted on the other span by the helo-cop'sters, they knew it was wrong and no one is ranting about the cops doing their jobs, everyone is calling the jumpers at fault for jumping.

If the NPS service is ever going to change their policy, it isn't going to come easy, and it wont come by everyone talking shit about the Rangers who are doing their job.

I look at this two ways: 1) do better recon, pass the word by phone, better planning, keep it to yourself, keep it old school, go in, jump, leave. Don't let anyone know, keep it to yourself. Or 2) Change the policy, put some effort into it. Everyone jumps on the train to change the policy, but when they find out its going to be a long ride they get off at the first stop.

[/rant]

Cops are thugs.

Only when there Macing defenseless Hippies occupying the city parks .
.
add to edit:
I am sure they got ticketed Trespassing on the RR Tracks too . Getting charged with Trespassing on RR property is one thing . RR's have shit grandfathered-in law for 150 years & are there own entity .
Really I do hear ya . BASE jumping in a Nat. Park & then charged with Fed. crime (aerial delivery) is pretty fucking lame on the Rangers part . It's pretty petty & your a Felon for just Pissing in there CatBox . Just goes to show you how fucking boring it is to be a NPS Ranger .
.

agreed.

I'd also like to point out the apparent level of resources brought to bear. while it might appear excessive, if they have the tools, they will use them. (they need the practice if nothing else.)

BUT, the level of coordination strikes me that they had plenty of forewarning and time to plan. the reports do not read like an ad hoc, thrown together operation.

these arrests suck, but it's the current reality of BASE.

Is the bridge or railroad under NPS jurisdiction? Cause it seems to me that the bridge is Dept. of transportation and the LZ is on private railroad property. If you jump the bridge and land on the tracks, you only fly over NPS land and I don't see that being aerial delivery. As for the other charges, I'm sure those will stand but don't the owners need to press charges? I may be completely off but was wondering. Will be interesting to find out what the final outcome is.

No, the bridge and the RR tracks are not part of the NPS.

NPS worked a deal with CSX several years back to enforce the law on the RR tracks. I'm not sure if this agreement permitted the RR tracks to be treated as being within park boundaries, but I do know it gave the authority for NPS to arrest you there.

I don't think anyone has ever researched the issue and attempted to defend themselves against an illegal aerial delivery charge while not technically launching or landing in the park. But I was told in the past that challenging it might cause additional local laws to be established. In my opinion, pay the fine and enhance your stealthiness in the future.

 

Been their done that, lost my gear and sat in jail! They don't mess around! And that was many years ago, I hear they are worse these days!

I do get what you're saying. However, it's those rangers that are complete asshole that put a bad taste in our mouths. Thats why we talk shit, many of us have delt with dickhead rangers at some point that were less than pleasent. Have you ever been to the Yosimite Valley? I've yet to deal with a ranger who didn't have a stick shoved way up his/her ass in the valley. Hell I've even run into rangers while hiking (not even a BASE trip) in GC and Zion, that were rude, arrogant, and unprofessional federal employees, and I left the encounter with a shit taste in mouth. It may sound like Im the dickhead that's out looking for trouble from law enforcement, but anyone that knows me, knows that's far from the truth.

I can only speak for myself but I know there are other jumpers out there who feel the same as I.

Absolutely. I did say that there was a select few who live for this shit. I have also ran into Rangers in other NATL Parks on non BASE events who were dicks. However, the majority are/were not.

If you go out to eat and your server is a dick, you complain to their boss. You don't leave there with the idea that all servers across the map are dicks.

I've talked to Rangers who would like to BASE jump and think the policy is unfair.

I saw on 60min or something about a cop that used to head up search and destroy missions for pot plants, now that it's legal where he lives, medicinal of course, he is now in charge of checking the quality of it.

It all boils down to the policy.

I would appeal that up the chain. There is no reason why an appeal to a conviction in this case (DOT to RR with no NPS contact) wouldn't be docketed by the higher, "unbiased" courts. I'm sure it's not that easy, but it seems like it should be, being how petty it is.

The problem with your analogy is that in the case of patronizing restaurants, you have the choice of whether you want to spend your money at the establishment. The police and government in general, as was pointed out up post, is paid for through taxation which is confiscated wealth. You are forced to pay these thugs by threat of force. Government is a coercive monopoly. In the absence of competition, the services you think you need the government to provide, actually come with excessive costs, inefficiencies, waste, corruption, lower quality, and poor service. Also, I think that a defense based on the idea that somebody was just doing their job is pathetic at best. Otherwise it could be said that any number of evils committed throughout history in the name of doing a job was defendable. The ends never justify the means. Nothing personal.

Bridge Day and he said, "Base jumping is bridge day." The next year we had over 200,000 spectators. I dont promote wuffoes wathcing us do what we do, but certain places like Perrine, Moab and Bridge Day is our place .
BASE is growing, I'm beginning to get troubled by some of the motives and exience of new applicants. Hey, if they so all 4 they get it, BUT moast need to be real and reflect on what BASE really means. Each jump is so different and cool. Best of luck to all, just pay attention to detail. l
Thanks; \
Rick Harrison
cliffleapear.aol.com

If such an agreement exists then it needs to be seen in order to understand it better. Why has no one asked for it yet? It also needs to be entered into evidence in order for the courts to recognize it and for it to be enforceable.

Why would you just want to instantly roll over and give into their offer for you to pay them? I agree with the stealthiness comment but to just give up because you think you can't beat the rap or are afraid they might increase local laws against BASE jumping is being a defeatist at the least.

BTW, only congress can pass laws. NPS, railroads, and local authorities can only pass policies and policies are not laws and should not be treated as such. They threaten with "making laws" because they know most won't bother to learn any better and will roll over like you suggest and just pay their fee.

“No public policy of a state can be allowed to override the positive guarantees of the U.S. Constitution.” --16 Am.Jur. (2nd), Const. Law, Sect. 70.

The above statement is correct but only if we do not surrender our rights and agree to the contract that makes their policy the Law. That contract is, among other things, the ticket that they hand to you as well as your actions and conduct during and after your contact with the 'authorities'.

Come on now... the only reason the kangaroo courts are walking all over everyone is because we are letting them.

Seriously, how many people actually go and study the law before or after they get busted?
My guess is near ZERO. Most will either just pay the fine or hire a lawyer, who is an agent of the court. How can we expect to get anywhere like that? Lawyers don't want to get people off, they can only argue, and when you argue in court you are for sure not going to get what you want but rather will get what the courts decide they want for you or what you have agreed to in the "contract". I guess if you agree that you got "caught BASE jumping" then that is the contract/law that you have agreed to and the courts will enforce it.

As far as NPS having jurisdiction over the whole area, I would not be so sure of that. The railroads were more than likely there before the NPS came into existence. Show me the documentation showing NPS has jurisdiction and then MAYBE I'll believe it

 

No, I'm not willing to spend $50k to 'fight' them. Like I said you can't win if you argue and fight. Plus I am not currently in any dispute with law enforcement. I am, however, willing to spend quite a bit of time and money to pursue a different angle. In fact I have already put a shit ton of money and time into figuring out a way around this predicament. I am willing to help out some people who are currently having issues if they are committed to following through the whole way and won't get cold feet and bail when the courts start to threaten stiffer penalties. No lawyers just Sui Juris (capable of handling your own affairs).

One key issue is that they can't prove anything.... they get you to prove their case for them by arguing the facts(atty). What are the facts of the case? The facts are that you agreed to their contract to pay for an infraction of their policy. Unless you do something to rebut their assumption that there is a valid contract then that is all the judge has to go by. Do you know what the highest form of evidence is? Do you know if they ever provide that?

There are so many holes in their accusations, jumpers just need to put as much time into studying the law as they do in bitching about how they are being railroaded.
I'm certainly not claiming to know exactly how to navigate through this legal quagmire but I am excited to have a path that has some promise, unlike the normal route.

I won't say I'm not intrigued, because I am. But with all due respect, uh, what the fuck are you talking about???

I'm talking about contracts... and almost everyone is unaware of the majority of the contracts they enter into. Most people think that contracts are only written and signed but that is not the case.

When you go to a restaurant you are entering into a contract, when you agree with the wife to take out the trash you are entering into a contract, when you tell your buddy you will meet him for a BASE jump you are entering into a contract. These are not written but they are contracts none-the-less, and are every bit as enforceable as a written contract.

Also, when you receive a ticket from an alleged police officer, that it is a contract as well. It's not something that proves guilt, it's only an offer and an allegation at the point they hand it to you and what you do with it will determine if there is a valid contract. If you sign it or even accept it then you have a contract and if you don't do something about it then the courts will enforce that contract.
Don't despair though because contracts can and will 'move'. What I mean is that just because the parties have 'agreed' to something does not mean that it can't change. How do you change a contract? By getting the other party to agree with you, which may seem like a daunting task when faced with police and the like, but it is possible and likely that you can get them to agree.

I'm not going to get any further into this on a public forum, so I'll leave it at that for now. I would love to discuss this further in a private setting with others that may be interested.

Sounds great. Now, who in the hell are you?

Isnt this Eric... Ryder...

Who is Eric, Ryder??? Must be the new school Eric R. Noob

Haha!
A very good question and one that really needs to be looked at closer.

So who am "I"? That is a huge question that we may never know but for me right now my belief is this.

"I" am not this body... "I" have a body.
"I" am not this mind, "I" have a mind.
"I" am certainly not a name, if that's what you are looking for. "I" go by many names. The wife calls me honey, the dog calls me woof, family calls me uncle, bro, etc. "I" go by many.
I guess the closest thing I can come up with is, "I" am a consciousness that animates this flesh and blood body. Or just "I AM".

Is it necessary that "I" have a name that you can recognize? Are you interested in learning more or just figuring out who you think "I" am?

Yea...sumpn like that

I was interested in learning more, but I've changed my mind since you're sounding more like a douche (or perhaps a ranger, cop, or know-it-all).

...says the guy that banned someone from jumping at an event (for life) because other people cussed

 

Call me crazy, but I am not interested in having jumpers at BD who start the Rodriquez chant on live TV (twice). Dropping the F bomb on live TV - now that would be great for the sport, eh?

aw how sad. its almost like living in the 20th century, when cussing was actually frowned upon somewhat. oh, who knew, we are in 21st century now!
did they ban, for life, from TV, the jackson woman and the timberlake guy for exposing a tit to children? no? so you are worse than BIG media? well shit.

This thread went to shit...

Great response! If you can't think of something intelligent to say start flinging shit!

If you were really interested in learning more, my identity would not matter one bit now would it? How are we to move forward in this sport if the so called leaders like yourself act like you are? Name calling... really?
I know you find it easier to fall in line and just go along with what they tell you since you are running a big BASE operation 1 day a year and don't want to upset the apple cart. I understand that, but why are you resorting to name calling?

So do you have anything to back up your accusations, besides being an expert on all things douche-like?
Why would you think I am a ranger or a cop when I am bringing forth a new idea for the possible betterment of the BASE community? Sounds more like you are the ranger or cop by asking for my identity. Besides how are you to prove that I am who I say I am? You can't, so why does it matter? What if I said I was Jason Bell? Would you say I'm a liar? Are you the only one with that name? Names are are just words to describe things. I'm more interested in ideas than things.

Which Jason Bell are you?


http://www.facebook.com/Jason.S.Bell


http://www.facebook.com/...Bell/100000029973743

You may think I am a know-it-all because you may not understand what I am saying at the moment, but I can assure you I know nothing. Once we think we know something is when we find out how little we know. I only have an understanding of the concepts and procedures that may bring forth a solution to our problems. I want to learn and try out new ideas with the community, have intelligent discussions and find solutions that are on our terms.

That's cool, you don't want to be a part of it, no problem. I need people that can think, not just outside the box but outside the box that holds the box that you are looking outside of. Obviously your more interested in... something else.

Oh, thanks. A personal attack for Christmas.

Another "leader" with an open mind!

I demand to know who you are! You can't just say shit like that and hide behind that name!

LowcountryBASE, what the hell does that mean anyway? Are you some sort of cop? They lie low in the country sometimes.

In post #30, you wanted to discuss BASE jumping laws in a private setting. I simply wanted to know who I'm talking to, but you prefer to remain anonymous. If you want to be taken seriously, don't hide behind a screen name created 9 days ago.

Merry Christmas everyone.

http://youtu.be/-eB_Y4N_sLY

Merry Chrimbus everyone!

Mr. Trustee,

First, your opinions seems to closely follow with those of Mr. Harris right here: http://www.documentarywire.com/...rris-its-an-illusion

While I think you are a rather intelligent human being, I do not truly see how your views can actually help the BASE community at all. When we chose to jump off of structures which we do not own on property that is not ours we are in fact breaking the law (whether you consider that "law" to be a form of common law, natural law, a corporate "contract" of some sort, or constitutional/legislative/bureaucratic law is really beside the point) and therefore must accept a certain degree of risk of adverse consequences from our actions. In the same way, we accept the reality that each of us may die on our next jumps. In the end, it is just another factor that should go into your risk management.

Since we have already accepted that degree of risk in pursing our sport illegally, it is best for us to simply take the knocks, try to get our charges reduced to the best of our abilities, and move on with our lives (granted I have never been caught or charged yet so I may be talking out of my ass).

While we can do our best to fight our individual battles, when you try to bring in radical new concepts into the mix and directly challenge the authority of the system itself we are going into very dangerous territory which is very likely to hurt our main public resource, access to jumpable objects whether legal or illegal. It also can make us look like a bunch of whiny little outlaws trying to liberate an activity which is still seen as batshit crazy by most of the population

When Corliss tried to file his countersuit against the owners of the Empire State Building it ended up setting jumping in NYC back significantly. When you try to fight the man, the man will fight back. Whether you find a neat little loophole in various interpretations of law is really beside the point although I would applaud you if you can pull something out of your ass and win your own legal battle. The bottom line is just that people (especially those in position of power) do not like being fucked with and their natural retaliation will be much worse than whatever good you were hoping to achieve. The ends just don't justify the means.

Luckily, we still have an easy way out...just don't get caught. Tighten and clean up your techniques a bit, plan for shit to hit the fan, teach real ethics to new kids in the game where respect for the object and the sport always trumps the thrill of the jump, slowly build our respectability with the general public through more and more legal events organized by awesome people like Jason Bell, and find positive media attention showing that we are not just a bunch of crazy libertarian revolutionaries who can't deal with authority.

As for your identity, while I really don't care who you are I am curious as to how much you have truly invested in this sport. How long have you been jumping? How many jumps do you have? Where do you jump? Have you ever had any legal trouble yourself? These are basic questions which can tell a lot your motivations and committment to really helping our sport evolve as well as your level of maturity and understanding of the sport and people in it in general.

Whatever though, sorry for the long post on Christmas. Hope everybody is having fun. Keep kicking ass and have an awesome holiday.

Cheers,
Brian

Personal Attack?

not by my call. Personal Attacks require a Person. as you have failed to identify yourself, and trivialized identity, then there can be no "Person" to attack!

imho, the attitude and tone of your posts is highly inflammatory. even if you are the smartest username here, I bet a little humility will benefit your cause.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts.


I don't know all of what John Harris believes but he seems to have some interesting thoughts, doesn't he?

I understand what you are trying to say but I also see that the 'law' is what the parties agree to. Who says I can't get their agreement? Then how is it illegal?


I don;t see how this will hurt access to anything else and I don't see why you would think that standing up for ones rights is acting like a bunch of whiny outlaws trying to liberate BASE. Do you have any more explanation on why you think this? Why is most of society so eager to roll over and give up every right that they have?

Are you sure BASE in NY was set back significantly because of Jeb? Are you suggesting jumpers stopped jumping because of new 'laws'? Maybe this made them tighten-up their practices a bit but a significant change? I understand 'authority' figures don't like push-back but are you enjoying the relationship that jumpers currently have with authorities? Do you think by just letting them tell us what they believe is right is going to turn out good for us?


Agreed. Jason does a good job with Bridge Day. I will say that Bridge Day might not help BASE jumping's image too much though. I think it promotes the 'crazy' aspect of BASE more than we think.



Honestly, I don't care if anyone knows the name they already know me by, I think it's funny that it seems to be THE point of contention for more than a few people. So I'll keep my private property (name) to myself for now Besides, I'm not representing myself here.

What I have truly invested in the sport is a hard question to answer. I have lost good friends, I have hauled out broken friends but more importantly made great friends. Time wise over 15 years in BASE, jumps 600-800 on 6 continents, money wise who really knows but probably over $150k. I have had run-ins with 'authorities' on a few occasions but nothing too bad. I don't look at them as bad people, they are only doing their jobs. They may be slightly misguided sometimes but hey don't we all get that way sometimes!


Happy holidays

Do you know the legal definition of person? According to the US code a 'person' can be many things, including a corporation. There are natural persons, juridical persons, legal persons, etc. So your statement that there is no person holds no water since a private trust is considered a natural person with all the rights that a man has including entering into contracts, such as joining this site, and are afforded all the rights and protections that are inherent within that contract.

Inflammatory posts? How so?
Forgive me if I come across as assertive, I realize it may rattle some. It is not my intention to create conflict. If you give me a reason why my identity is relevant to any legal discussion about BASE jumping then I would be more than happy to assist you in identifying me.

I don't care about the personal attacks anyway, I was just checking to see if you were paying attention

Are you speaking of "authority" specifically about the NPS?

if you take the NPS "Laws" out of the equation then we are typically only committing trespassing while breaking the law to make a jump. if you think its our right to trespass because the law is only a contract we don't agree too and think its worth fighting to change then isn't that the same as saying that the property owners should not have the right to private property?

when i jump an object that i don't own i am fully aware that i am on someones else's property without permission. although i try to be respectful of the property to leave no trace, if i am caught i am going to be polite, respectful and fully accept the charges if it comes to that because i accepted the risk to begin with. the law is there to protect the property owners. its their right.

my 2 cents

wow.

laws regarding a person? why bring that up? do you think anyone actually cares?

if I cared to investigate, I bet you violated the contract you entered when you signed up to participate on this site. in it you agreed to have only one set of credentials. I'd recommend you don't seek protection from rules you flaunt.

overall, you come off as a bit passive-aggressive...

being criticized harshly on this site, for your judgements and actions on this site is NOT a personal attack, imho.

you seem to get jazzed by "out dancing" people here. I doubt that will ever score you points. in fact, it will fuel the perception of being a douche. people may still work with you, if you can add value. credibility and friendliness do not always coincide.

please re-read the rules and abide by them.
seriously.
this is essentially private property. you are a guest. rules can be enforced without a court hearing.
play nice. please!

Good luck convincing the authorities to allow you to tresspass and jump off of something tall. If you pull it off, more props to you. The law is whatever the sheriff wants to enforce.

Security is relatively expensive in terms of resources. The less threat people perceive from jumpers (ie, the less they know of us wanting to jump off their shit) the less likely they are to invest in security to catch us. Start raising a big fuss about legalized tresspassing for BASE and I'm sure more people will become aware of our nocturnal activities and not look favorably upon them.

NY was set back significantly although there were other factors involved. In addition they added new laws to the books and while I haven't looked them up there, one of the laws involved terrorism charges for being caught above the 5th story of a building...which by the 2012 NDAA warrants the penalty of indefinite detention until the "end of hostilities" in an undisclosed military prison...seems a bit farfetched for a jumper to be tried for this but I still don't feel like being the first to get caught

Overall, you can't just change the laws by showing people that you don't agree with them. Yes, we live in the matrix and the deeper you go down rabbit holes the more crazy things get, but you still have to operate within the world of normal human beings. As you say, the laws are essentially contracts which people agree to, thus the norms of society dictate its laws.

Go ahead and keep doing your research though. While I doubt you will get too much support out here you might actually learn some things which is good enough by itself. I've just got a real-world job and too many side projects going on now to figure out how to start the BASE jumping world revolution.

Best of luck to you though. Just try to be a bit nicer to some people if you can.

I'm talking about anyone who claims to have a position of authority over me. If they make that claim then it's only right that they can back up that claim, right?

I'm not saying to attempt to skirt your responsibility if you cause any harm or damage. I'm saying if someone is truly injured then let them come forward and verify the claim. This is about ultimate responsibility not trying to get one over on them.

I only brought up the 'person' thing because you claimed there was no person for a personal attack.
I won't comment on your claim that I have possibly violated this sites contract because I feel you have nothing to back up that claim.

What judgements and actions was I being criticized harshly for again, I'm not sure I know where those are.

I would like to say that this banter is actually a good thing in my eyes. I see a bit of spark in some of you which is good. Like for instance when JB/base428 asked me who I was. I thought that really was a great question and I'm not being facetious. It's unfortunate that he took my honest answer as a snub and started the name calling. I think we need more of that kind of questioning especially to people who claim authority over us. Why are we instantly giving in to them yet when someone comes along who may be able to help they get he third degree? If we could change that around I think we might be a little better off. Do we ever verify that the police are who they say they are?

Don't worry wwwarped, I will play nice, I always have.

I really do understand what you are saying I guess I see things just slightly different and see a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't see them having complete control over every aspect of our lives.

One thing you keep referring to are these 'laws' that keep us from BASE jumping. These are not laws but merely statutes and rules. I'm not sure if you actually watched to video you linked to earlier in this thread but John Harris rightly stated that statutes are not law. They only have the force and effect of law. They have the force and effect of law only when we agree to it and you can agree to it in many, many ways.

You're right that it doesn't look like I will get much help here but that doesn't discourage me, I know it's a bland subject and it's easier to shoot something down than to really investigate something for yourself or to at least ask some good questions.

I appreciate your input.

I ran the "base illegal in NYC" thing by an attorney friend and they couldn't find anything specific to base jumping. Has anyone actually been able to locate or produce the statute / language? I'm just curious. From what I understand, base in NYC is not specifically illegal, but the general climate in NYC reduces the sense of humor authorities have when dealing with knuckleheads like us, and makes them (by decision or by decree) more likely to find other charges. But it doesn't matter because nobody base jumps in NYC anyway.

Yes, I have watched that video and have done a decent amount of independent research on my own. The bottom line is that while many of the systems of control in our society are simply false illusions that we only agree to due to our ignorance the people in power and charged with enforcing them both believe and have a considerable investment in them. They also have all the means and the capability to settle discrepancies through the disproportionate application of force. Thus by directly challenging authority and the conventional wisdom you are most likely setting yourself up for failure and retaliation.

While there are lots of things that are completely fucked about the world and society today, fighting for our right to jump off other people's shit is not the way to go about solving any of them.

Still interested in where you are going some of this stuff though...feel free to hit me up with a PM is you ever get a plan or something together.

Cheers,
Brian

I also have not found anything specific to BASE jumping. I heard about the possible terrorism law for being in a building above the 5th story but never actually looked it up. As far as I know, nobody has ever been caught in NYC since Corliss but the city is hardly ever jumped and there are no locals anywhere in the area who could confirm anything