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Well another new guy, ill skip the introduction but ill provide a brief background to my question. In the future iam looking to purchase a BASE canopy to practice on before a FJC, my question is what size? I have read a few articles mentioning wing loading around .7 to .8, depending on landing area ect. Though also ive read that the easiest was is to add 100lbs to your current exit weight and work it out from there. This has me confused, iam let say 107kgs exit weight, so according to the wingloading calculator (235lbs, with .7 w/load) means a canopy size of 335sq/ft.adding the 100lbs, should be around 470sq/ft. dont get me wrong i could lose a few kilos, but iam not exactly fat either. height is around 6'1 ish,
set me straight, flame away

If you weigh 235 lbs, then you need to get a hot air baloon. Just kidding, you did say flame away

yes, add 100 pounds to your weight, that would give you a 335 sq/ft canopy.

Lose weight and research the manufactures web sites for the biggest canopy you can find. I would lose weight. Big canopies are heavy and take a bit longer to come out and open.

You are not adding 100lbs you are adding 100 to your weight in Lbs to make it into a number that represents the SQFT you need.

Naked weight in kg x 2.2 to turn in to Lbs.
so 107 x 2.2= 235lb +100 = 335.

So if your NAKED weight is 107kg you should get a canopy 335sqft

and quit eating so many burgers.


Laters

I'm 200 lbs naked weight and jump a 260 and it serves me well on all jumps. A 280 would be fine too. If you go to big it becomes a pain in the ass. Think about it, more nylon, more weight, more time, more variables. I think the trend of going huge has gotten just a bit out of hand, however, I had a pretty old school mentor who focused more on actual canopy skills.
Decide what kind of jumps you are going to do (how low will you freefall, is going stowed important, etc.) and get something manageable. You have to hike it and you have to learn it's characteristics. But personally, I think a tandem canopy is a tandem canopy, even if it is made for BASE. Do you want to fly a boat or a parachute?

A BASE canopy is just a tool, it doesn't make you a better canopy pilot IMO. I've never looked at a jump and said, "man, I wish I had a lower wing loading." I like a canopy I can fly fast and shut it down when I need to shut it down. Larger means slower in every way, including correcting heading (if I'm wrong on that I'll take my lashings with a smile).
Goodluck

I'd recommend a canopy in the 310 size range. Troll 305, Blackjack/Ace 310, Flik 308, etc.

You might step up to the next size (Flik 353), but that will greatly limit your canopy choices (most manufacturers don't make them that big) and the inflation on the supersize Flik isn't the best, just because there is so much fabric up there.

I disagree so much with that I had to post... I had a Troll 265 and I had that thought numerous times, especially on my first low jumps landing at 7000' MSL. I can turn away just as quickly under a 305 as I could on a 265 (and somehow not get nearly as close to the object either) so my 265 now belongs to another jumper. One day you'll drop a toggle, unstow your breaks incorrectly or misjudge a landing and that fast canopy won't forgive or even let you unfuck yourself. From 150' I have ten seconds under canopy even when I'm turning and sinking to a tiny LZ. How about you?


Hahaha! Is more altitude a bad thing? That certainly affords more time and more variables to your jump as well... so the rig weighs another three pounds, who cares. I've never opened and immediately had the thought: "man, this canopy is so slow! I wish I could fly this thing faster!"

fyi: I'm 6'7" and 215 pounds.

I agree wholeheartedly.

an advice to go with a smaller canopy comes from someone who has shit for brains or only jumps tall terminal stuff with huge landing areas.

 
fyi: I'm 6'7" and 215 pounds.
I hear if you pay him enough you can jump off of him for your "A". :)

I wasn't recomending he jump a 260. But my point was that I think any wing loading below .8 is pretty nice.

As far as flying fast, I like it, and I can fly plenty slow when I feel it is necessary.

I've never opened at 7000' on a BASE jump, so whatever.

And I think 3 pounds subtracted from the drag of a 42" pilot is enough to make a bit of a difference on low objects, but you're right, not that much. And I don't get that low, so I was mearly going by facts.

As you already know, exit weight has nothing to do with how fast your canopy falls away from your pilot chute. But the weight of your canopy does. Also, I'm sure you are a better canopy pilot than I, and I'm sure you lose less altitude than I when correcting heading since you have a slightly lower wing loading, more skill, and more experience. But it is a fact that, if we are talking about opening height, if we both pitch the same size pilot chute at the same time, the larger canopy will take longer to extract, inflate, and maybe even pressurize. Why would you argue that?

I don't want to sound like an expert, but you called me out making it sound like I implied something that wasn't meant to be implied.

And Vid666, I like you. I think you're a pretty cool guy from what I know of you. And I'm not sure if you are implying that I have shit for brains or not, but it kind of sounds like it. Really?

Can you explain how wing loading would effect altitude loss on heading correction?

I don't really follow what you are saying there.

Thanks for the replies everyone, much to think in the future. ill keep you posted on the outcome!

One other thing, does anyone have any comparison videos of canopies opening? in a range of sizes right up to 310 ish?

I live in Australia to give you an idea of the types of jumps are around ;)

Cheers

I weigh ~185 pounds and my clothes and gear
probably weigh about 25 pounds. I have BASE
jumped wings from 240 to 300.

The low end is fine for wide open spaces and
tall antennas but for the dirty low or in urban
We ALL want a little more nylon because it
makes things happen just a little bit slower
which equals more time.

I have ground video of 3 guys doing a load
where each guy did a go & throw and you
can clearly see the 240ish opened highest,
the 285 opened the lowest and the 265 was
right in the middle.

edited to remove post

Did anyone mention that the 305 troll is actually 322 by PIA specs. I'm still confused by all of this. I mean, wouldn't the wing loading on a 308 flik, and a 305 troll be completely different? Can somebody educate me The locals all jump trolls, but don't seem to know this.

I have literally thousands of slider down openings on video from filming FJC's. Any specific canopies you are interested in?

I'm teaching through Monday of next week, but after that I might be able to find some time to dig through the video and see if I can find some shots of specific openings.

I believe the difference is PIA spec canopies are measured by the topskin like the Flik.

It's my understanding that the Troll, and other Atair canopies are measured by the bottom skin. My 265 Troll is PIA spec 282 sq. ft. I think that Stane's reasoning for this is that the bottom skin measurement is a better representation of a flying canopy. I hope that helps. Take Care

Sure, Tom. (I have to be brief because of a crying baby who is as sick of Thomas the Train as I am)
As any canopy pilot has learned (from paragliders to swoopers) that weighting a harness is more than 50% of a good turn. By weighting the left side while pulling on the right toggle you make a much flatter turn resulting in less dive. A larger canopy like a bigger BASE canopy, student sky canopy, 16m speedwing, full size paraglider, etc. (is going to be easier to control the amount of dive from such turns.
Even assuming most heading are corrected on risers, this still makes sense to me. Wing loading still has something to do with sink rate, does it not? A 60 lb sack of dog food will fall a lot slower under a 240 sq/ft canopy than a 200 lb stud muffin like yours truly, no?

Anyway, I have no problem being told I'm wrong, I actually prefer it. And rarely do I have a serious conversation on these boards because I know where it usually leads. But I guess I started it, so now I'm left trying to defend my words (which all make sense in my head)
Cheers!

I have a troll 265 and a troll 285, I am 6'3 and around 90kg.

The 265 was custom for me and the brakes are right on the stall point, in fact I have opened in a stall on many occasions.

The 285 I bought 2nd hand and have not adjusted the brakes as they were close enough.

Sub 110ft I notice a huge difference in the opening and pressurisation time of the bigger canopy (only 1 size up). Even though the smaller canopy opens on the stall point I get considerably softer landings.

Above 120ft I don't really notice any difference in the landings and time wise it is not as critical.

Please note these were all static lines so no difference in deployment.



Laters

Julian

Hey, I'm no expert either. Given everything else being the same, the smaller canopy will of course open faster since it's got shorter lines, smaller dimensions, and less volume to inflate... but once you're open marginally higher, a smaller canopy will fly considerably faster and have a higher sink rate in most turns due to the higher loading. Altitude = time and when you're descending that much faster you lose the extra time gained from your smaller opening height and then some. So on our jump you'll open and be flying higher, but you'll be on the ground first and with more energy to burn too.

Sub 110! That's ridiculous! At those heights I bet the extra distance to line stretch matters! Nothing below 130 for me, thanks!

will put. t I see the contradictions in my previous statements.

Hi,

hope you dont mind if I add another question to this thread but it seemed like a sensible place rather than clogging up the forum with another thread.

I am in the same position, looking at canopies to practice on before even thinking about a 1st jump. My question is about types of canopies, over the past few months I have been doing a lot of reading about everything i can and there is a lot information out there about gear including pros and cons but very little about what is recommended for a newbie.

What are the key things in your oppinions I should be looking for in terms of canopies at my level? Is it a case of keep it simple? Does it depend greatly on personal prefrences?

Any advice greatfully recieved.

JMCC,

Check out WWARPED's post in this thread.

~ Chris

Spot on, cheers Chris

7 cells
F111 nylon
Dacron lines
Big & Square
.7ish Wing Loading

As for an exact make and model,
like wwarped said, not important.
Every BASE specific wing I have
jumped worked as advertised.

Cheers @GreenMachine,

Whats the general view on 2nd hand canopies in BASE? I have had 2 2nd hand skydive rigs and they have been awesome. But I imagine its likely to be diffrent in BASE.

Is it easy to pack a base canopy into my container (Mirage) in a way that i would get used to its opening characteristics? Do DZ's often have issues about people jumping base canopies or are they fairly cool about it?

Cheers
Cubs

JMCC,

The biggest issue you'll likely face with getting a BASE canopy in your Mirage is the size of the canopy. Unless you're jumping a larger sport canopy, you may not be able to squeeze a BASE canopy in your container.

That said, if the container can accommodate your BASE canopy, there's no reason whatsoever not to start putting some jumps on it. I would simply suggest that you get some guidance on rigging/packing it. CRW jumpers are probably a good source of guidance on the DZ for getting a big-ass BASE canopy to come out of your sport rig without ending up on the news. And don't forget your friendly neighborhood rigger.

All of this said, jumping your BASE canopy out of a sport container won't really give you a sense of its opening characteristics in a BASE environment. For one thing, you'll always be using a slider when you jump your BASE canopy with your sport rig. Also, in very general terms, your BASE canopy will come out of your BASE rig in a more consistent manner than it will come out of your sport rig.

Jumping your BASE canopy at the DZ is a great way to learn how to fly that canopy. But apart from that, you will still have many BASE-specific things to learn.

It's hard to answer the DZ question, as no two DZs are the same. But generally speaking, if you are using a TSO approved harness/container, and you have a TSO approved reserve, there shouldn't be any reason the DZ would frown on jumping a BASE canopy, so long as you can safely pack/deploy that canopy using the equipment you have. If the canopy is simply not going to fit safely in your Mirage, then a responsible DZO will say, "no". They don't want to be on the news, either.

If you can't get a BASE canopy in your Mirage, try doing the next best thing. Find someone on your DZ who has a big-ass 7-cell canopy. Ask 'em if you can put some jumps on it. Find out if your student program has student rigs with big-ass 7 cells. Or troll the classifieds and find yourself a harness/container/reserve that will fit your BASE canopy. And once you have it, hold on to it. It may be useful for demo jumps later on...

Sorry I rambled so much.

Cheers,

Chris

I agree with everything Chris rambled

As for used gear, I have bought and jumped
lots of used BASE gear, always worked well.

Be sure to inspect any thing you ever jump,
be it SKY or BASE, to ensure it is air worthy.

In SKY jumping people sell gear because they
want newer, smaller, faster, tighter, shinier kit.

In BASE jumping people sell gear because they
quit or need money for medical bills, legal fees,
court costs, BASE trip, pregnancy, divorce, etc.

Im sure this has been said I didnt go back and re-read this thread, BUT most DZs will have student rental rigs. If you cannot find someone to lend you thier larger size container and you dont want to buy used, just rent a student rig with the largest size canopy in it. Unhook it, hook up whatever BASE tarp you bought and go F'in jump!! It's always good practice to do this basic rigging skill as you will be doing it in both skyjumping and base jumping. Have a rigger show/supervise you at first if you are currently not familiar. Play safe.

Hi all,

@Chris, I do actually jump quite a large canopy (a 170) as I am 6’2” and 200lbs. With regards to packing a BASE canopy I have never actually seen it done is there a decent video anyone knows of? I do actually take quite a lot of interest in rigging and hoping to do more. I know the local rigger so will talk to him about how best to do it without becoming a statistic.

What is the difference between a BASE rig and a sport rig that would mean I would have to jump slider up when using it in my sport rig? But that is a good point I hadn’t thought of.

Is there a thread on here that describes in detail what skills to practice under canopy skydiving that suit base. I have heard of the standard “land in the same diameter circle all the time” and “learn flat turns” but is there any detailed description of how to learn these and a good explanation of the actual effects and what is happening?

Fair point on the DZ.

Good ideas with the student and demo rigs, I will look into it. Maybe the local DZ is looking to move some on and I could pick one up cheap. . .

Thanks for the ramble, very helpful info.

@GreenMachine, fair point there to be honest. A list of all the joys I have facing me if I take this all the way, errr except divorce, have to be married for that. . . . . . .. and pregnancy, have to be female for that!

@dride, basically already said. Not sure what the rigger would think if I wanted to start taking apart student rigs but is always worth a shout! He is a nice lad so you never know!

Thanks for all the help people.

We are close in size: I am over 6', 185 pounds.

While I have SKY jumped canopies from 117 to
420 both solo and with a passenger my usual
SKY main is a 120 and preferred tandem main
is around 360 square feet.

However, BASE jumping I have used canopies
from 240 to 300 and I will be honest, that 240
felt really fucking fast from 300 feet.

So your 170 square foot 9 cell would not be
considered 'large' by our standards...

FYI - there is a ton of info out there for newbies:
http://www.basejumper.com/articles/
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/
http://www.snakeriverbase.com/library.html
http://www.apexbase.com/articles.php
http://www.baserigs.com/docs/education/
http://www.badseedbase.com/site/home.html
http://www.asylumbase.com/library/

JMCC,
Have you ever seen Monty Python's The Holy Grail?

If so, you'll doubtless remember the part of the movie when the castle guards ask the intrepid heroes where they found a coconut:

Guard: Are you suggesting that coconuts are migratory?
Heroes: Perhaps a swallow carried it...
Guard: How can an 8 ounce swallow carry a 2 pound coconut?
Heroes: He could grip it by the husk.
Guard: it's not a question of where he would grip it, it's a simple matter of weight ratios...

In the case of your question (above), though there are many differences between a BASE rig and a sport rig, it's not these differences that make a slider necessary with the sport rig. In BASE, especially if you live in the United States, a lot of our parachute deployments happen at low air speeds, and close to the ground. In this case we eliminate the reefing provided by the slider. But if you jump out of a good old fashioned airplane, you'll be deploying your BASE canopy at higher airspeeds, and much further from the ground. To keep your spinal column and pelvis in one piece, you'll want to continue reefing your BASE canopy with a slider.

Cheers,

Chris

@Chris, very good point! I hadnt made the connection in my head between, no slider, a terminal deployment and the state of my spine after.

What are typical delays before people start doing slider up jumps in BASE?

@GreenMachine, from what i have read and what i have been told so far seems like a sensible option would be a Blackjack 280 or Flik 280, wing loading .71 which seems ok. Seem sensible?

If you add 25 pounds for gear and the parachute system itself, as the wing needs to support the entire amount of your weight, you end up weighing 225 minimal . I think if you have the opportunity to, you should demo a 300 of some sort at the potato bridge, and see how you like it.
Set some goals, like landing in tighter and tighter areas, and hopefully you'll run into another giant who has a 280 that he might let you try out for a jump or two.
I have a range of canopies(all daggers) from 199's to 244's. Believe me... when the shit hits the fan, you can't have enough nylon over your soft squishy body. Just my .02$....... but man... it sure is nice to have a larger wing for when your looking at a super harry landing spot, or your just as un-current as I have found myself in the past.
In my opinion.... the adrenaline and high speed part of most base jumps are over as soon as you let go of the pilot chute . From there on out normally altitude is your friend, and being able to put a larger canopy in deep brakes really gives your battle computer some extra time to get your setup straightened out, and hopefully make the landing portion of the jump un-eventful. .
Just my thoughts.... start with a larger one.... if your half as horny 6 months from now ..... you'll probably want a second rig, and then you can wrap your melon knowledgeably around the idea of what you want for a second canopy, or complete rig.
Different tools in the toolbox pay off in the long run if the nature of your jumps vary from low slider down style jumps to large big mountain slider up jumps....... jeez the options out there these days... it's a bit overwhelming.
Just my .02 ....... some BASE manufacturers may let you put a deposit down on a canopy, and let you borrow a loaner for a week or two , in order to assess what size you really want for your first rig......
Good Luck........enjoy the journey..... stop once in a while to smell the roses...... and don't forget you should always be trying to have more fun than anyone else on the load!!!!! Especially Hank !!!!

JMCC,

This is a good question, but now you're moving into "work with your mentor" territory. I don't want to snuff your curiosity and enthusiasm, but there's some danger in sharing too much info on the IntraWebSphere when there's no mentor in place to moderate it.

I could tell you that any delay longer than 3 seconds warrants a slider. But there are a few reasons it would be better if you discussed this with a mentor:
1. Some people will disagree with me, and they'll have valid reasons.
2. An answer like > 3 seconds is really too simple, as it does depend on your size, your gear, the geometry of the jump you're planning, and your masochistic tendencies. And you'll want to understand those reasons before you're making your own, unmoderated gear configuration decisions.
3. I've taken slider-off delays that I thought were perfectly comfortable, only to have others on my load tell me that I'm a crazy sonofabitch.
4. You don't know me from Adam's housecat. And the information we've shared thus far on practicing with your BASE canopy at the DZ is fairly harmless. But some poor advice on the proper configuration for a given BASE delay could actually get you killed/maimed.

So I've somewhat answered your question, but hopefully I've also got you thinking a bit about qualifying the information you receive here. There's a WEALTH of information on this site, but it should be consumed carefully. And you must consume every answer you receive for a BASE question with a healthy side-dish of CONTEXT.


Either of those would be a sensible first canopy, at the wing loading you mentioned. I own two FLiKs and they're both sized for a .7 wing loading. I learned on them and continue to jump on them. I have no complaints. And there's a dude who jumps in our group who uses a BlackJack at .7. He also has no complaints.

However, working with a mentor, who will better understand the types of things you'll be jumping in your area (and your future goals), said mentor might suggest features like vents/valves, ZP leading edge on the topskin, and special, life-saving color combinations.

~ Chris

i dont normally give any advice to ANYONE, as i dont feel im in a position to give anyone advice on anything BASE related with the exception of my experiences in my 57 BASE jumps..................otherwise who the fuck am i?

in regards to the question about gear choice, i will say this.........

without going out and trying different gear, i simply put my faith in a brand spankin new OSP245/Helium setup, which costs me roughly 3200 bux out the door. what i found was that even though the OSP is fuckin rockin, i weigh 195 out of the shower, so with a wingloading that was a little bit higher, and the objects i was jumping, i had to fly in deep brakes almost every jump to avoid getting fucked up. because i had a higher wingloading i was pounding into the ground and having to PLF alot. So in that sense i felt i was a little too hasty in my decision to buy a brand new setup, you may want to consider test jumping a few canopies in a slightly more controlled environment like the potato, and possibly buy some used gear before you go spending a shitload of money on a new toy.

i have sold my OSP and though i havent flown a blackjack, i found a SICK deal on a BJ 280 w/ CUS, and purchased it which will lower my wingloading a bit. it was a deal i couldnt refuse, so i am hoping for some bettter results and slightly more docile flights during shutdown and deep brake approaches. i have also heard nothing but good things about the glide ratios of BJ's especially with the ZP topskin, so im really hoping this canopy will be the right fit for me when i need to make distant landing areas.

the moral of my novel? it would have been wiser for me to test jump some different canopies, buy a used rig to see how well it worked with me, and then eventually bought a brand new setup...........