Basejumper.com - archive

Slider down, shallow brakes on an object with low strike potential (let's say an S)... how would the opening compare to deep brakes? pros and cons?

more forward speed on opening. do it see what happens.

In general, the question is not "when should I use shallower brakes?" but rather "when do we use deeper brakes?"

We use our deeper brake setting when we want to reduce the forward speed of the canopy at opening. Under normal circumstances, this is when we are jumping a solid, slider down object--something low that we can hit.

There is no real need to use a deeper brake setting on any object we cannot hit (like the span in your example).

What if your landing area was hard to reach? Would you use the shallow settings to help you get there?

Thanks Tom. Makes perfect sense.

And Wasatchrider, I think I'll giver er a go next time I'm jumping the bridge.

I've noticed that on the few very low jumps I have made, I seem to get 'flying performance' from my canopy noticiably faster if brakes are set to shallow. This can sometimes make the difference between a nice flare and standup landing and a PLF type crash landing. It makes sense to me in those cases, the canopy flys sooner and with 120ft of altitude over solid ground a forward flying canopy improves your landing. Unless you somehow manage to swing yourself into a pendulum effect and smack the ground even harder! But I think the pendulum effect is easier to get if you are on deep brakes, as releasing your brakes in a careless manner will make you surge.

I think this is a very marginal use for the shallow setting, though, as usually jumping slider down you want to minimize your forward speed for the possibility of an offheading.

Not that I'm very experienced in the ultra low category, but I don't think those types of jumps should necessarily be done by beginner jumpers... Unless you believe in the old wisdom of: "the lower the jump, the less time you have to fuck up."

Kerkko
BASE1184

If the distance you'd travel before popping the brakes was a significant portion of the distance to a hard to reach landing area, I'd say you've made a fairly poor set of decisions.

If this is the case, for example, a relatively minor offheading (45 degrees, for example) would probably be enough to cost you the altitude (used when you turned toward the landing area) you'd need, and therefore force you to land out.

What about using deep brakes on a 250-300ft wired or freestanding A? Heard some "jumpers" use the shallow brake setting when jumping low A's

There is a long and a short answer there.

Short answer:

In my opinion, if you are using factory brake settings, there is no reason not to use the deeper brake setting for wind-through (antenna or span) jumps.

The longer answer will take about 20 minutes and some diagrams. I'm in California right now, but if you want to come by the school next week I can give you all of my thoughts at whatever length you want to hear them.

Tom rocks!

Agreed. I quit using deep brake settings years ago for almost everything, 'course I'm one of these people that believe in using toggles rather than rear risers for obstacle avoidance...I'm faster on my toggles and feel that riser turns create their own unique control issues, my opinions are based on what works for me, not a suggestion for everyone to follow.I belive that deep brake settings can sometimes be too extreme,especially after the lines have some jumps on them,trying to control a canopy in deep brakes using rear risers creates its own set of problems and has certainly been implicated as the cause of at least one fatality.I might use deep brake settings on a sketchy building where I can't exit a corner for example.sincerely,B.

The only time I'd ever recommend using the rear risers is when you are trying to stall the canopy (or at least half of it).

A rear riser stall (probably a better term than a "rear riser turn") can be a useful technique for object avoidance, if you understand the trade offs (like massive loss of altitude) and limitations (once you are no longer in imminent danger of object strike you should _immediately_ release the rear riser and switch to toggles).

I'll add to what others have posted here that my experience has been that on vented canopies, deep brakes can aggravate the tendency to stall when vent air rushes out of the nose. This is only really a problem if: (1) you've got your brakes set very deep (maybe too deep); and (2) you're too aggressive on a static line or PCA launch. Still, it's caused me problems before and is one of the reasons I use shallow brakes unless I have a good reason to do otherwise.

I jump deep brakes on every jump. I see no reason to do otherwise, unless I need a quicker opening for reasons such as super low jumps, etc.

+1

Well for all slider down jumps anyway. Several of my friends never use deep brakes, which I do not understand. Especially when we are standing on a low tower with no wind.

Slider UP = Shallow Brakes to drive the slider down

Span = Shallow Brakes to save the wear and tear
on my deep settings, which I use more at home.

Low or Solid = Deep Brakes because the object
strike potential and landing area are way more
important to me than a minor affect on opening.

I have had a perfect 180 from 315 feet (yes with
stills and video) and used toggles to back it up,
sashay to the right, sink it in, and stand her up
in a 12' x 20' LZ. Shallow brakes on that jump
might have had a different outcome.

When you say "deep brakes" are you talking about a deep brake setting customized for your body weight on that canopy, or the deeper of the two brake settings from the factory?

Prior to the manufacturers sending out BASE canopies with the 2nd fingertrap(deep brake setting), we used to jump the canopy and establish the setting ourselves and then add the fingertrap. this was a custom setting based on our own evaluation and wingloading. It's unlikely that a manufacturer's estimate, can adequately take into account the weight of every jumper and therefore the closeness to stall in deeper than average brakesettings, therein lies the problem. when you take into account that the deep brake mod was only really a "tweak" for the BASE environment then you can consider this whole topic merely academic, since a shallow setting should always be adequate as long as the participant is halfway conscious and able to respond and the bottom line is...have they evaluated their ability in relation to the jump environment? We have of course resorted to three brake settings, half(standard) deep, and deeper(stall point...almost), in my opinion standard settings are adequate for all types of jumps and deeper settings are just finesse that can lead to problems especially with people that have barely learned to handle their student skydiving parachutes.The deep setting was developed by experienced parachutists for experienced parachutists...this is a problem in todays environment. Remember that the half brake setting in skydiving was developed for the same reason as the slider...to lessen the opening shock,.. not for obstacle avoidance, although, of course, in the BASE environment it has proven to have a dual purpose.

Nice post. There is an other school of thought. Shallow brakes and shallow exit. Canopy goes to flight mode faster and the distance to the object is not so far so the canopy has not the time to smack into the object at full speed in deep brakes. This is from the guys/girls that invented No slider object jumps. granted they were jumpimg Low aspect ratio tarps. My Raven (1986) was higher aspect and it was like backing out of a parking space with deep settings with 180's. not that i had so many, but one or 2 is enough. I had 2 in the beginning 100.
take care,
space

since when do you have friends....

I have 3 brake settings on my troll
1. Deep - custom made, minimal canopy forward speed (30 cm\s), use them for almost all no slider jumps. I've seen enough people smack into an object on an offheader due to canopy swing caused by shallow brakes, before they even had a chance to grab anything
2. Middle - moderate canopy speed, for no slider S or A with appropriate wind, long (3-4 seconds) slideroff jumps if you can get a running exit, and "slider middle"(short delay, big PC, indirect control only) jumps.
3. Shallow - all other slider up jumps, if you can't track away far enough - consider getting into golf instead.

Slider middle? New to me, please explain...

It's just a term
When you jump slider up but the delay is 4-5 seconds, usually 42" PC, no direct slider control, and middle brake settings due to the fact that object separation isn't very big. A front flip from a 230 meter B is a good example.

I'll attempt to do the "20 mins longer answer" in a few short lines:

The objective is to get as much distance between you and the object. In a tail wind, glide (away from the object) is maximised by staying aloft as long as possible - ie, very close to the min sink rate of the canopy. Min sink should be close to your deep brake setting. Conversely, in nil wind, max glide will be somewhat faster than min sink, and will be typically around quarter / half brakes.

Whilst this isn't a substitute for understanding how a wing works, different forms of drag and resultant polar curves, it should provide a useful practical summary.

I'm the same, although I would note that in my own experience - and from speaking with others - the Troll does not turn at all well on rear risers, and certainly will turn slower / more height loss than a Blackjack, for instance.

Ultimately, what will work best is also dependent on the canopy being used.

If you take the time to trim your brakes properly for your loading and canopy size (no/minimal forward movement in deep setting) you will probably find some issues in deep brakes with strong tail winds that may bring the idea of using shallow brakes for certain SLD jumps. I use shallow setting SLD often depending on conditions and the jump. Nobody can tell you the right brake setting and when to use what cause they are not jumping your shit, at your loading, with your square footage on whatever canopy...jump with a thought about your canopy flight, open, look up, analyze what your crap does in different conditions, trim your brake settings properly for you, have fun.

Just for the thought, this is a deep brake setting not properly adjusted in a low wind situation, notice the initial surge forward during opening, before inflation is complete, and then the forward momentum afterwards.
http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=related/


Wow...couldn't find a video on youtube with a properly trimmed canopy hardly, this is from a base trip I was on, the jump at 2:18 shows a SLD opening with a proper trim setting in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwjQKXGECxc

If your trimmed like this you may find some stall signs with high tail winds on opening so adjust and test cautiously, the brakes on stock canopies almost never come trimmed properly because its too close to the stall point when not loaded properly or blah blah blah figure it out. My 2 cents on brakes. Tata.

Just to throw my own $0.02 in there. When I pack slider down I usually pack deep brakes because I don't always know my next object. Most likely it will be slider down, and anything I jump slider down I can jump in deep brakes. If it warrants a new pack job then so be it. But it is rare when I may prefer shallow brakes on a slider down jump. When I know I can use shallow brakes, I pack them (perrine, second jump at a local S or A, whatever. Not sure why this is such a debate, both have their place, but proper deep brakes, in my small world, will rarely get you in trouble on a SD jump.

I agree, but you know how it is, we got the hurricane on the east coast, nothing better to do except turn base into rocket science!

Maybe the calculator brigade can help me out with this challenge:

I jump one canopy. Sometimes at sea level and sometimes at several thousand feet elevation. Sometimes at sub-freezing temperatures and sometimes at 100+degrees F. Sometimes I carry a lot of gear (body armor, full face helmet, hanwags, warm clothing, food, water, some survival gear, climbing gear, a rope down my pants, etc) other times I wear not much more than a pair of shorts, t-shirt and approach shoes. I jump SL, lowish FF, 'regular' FF and sometimes even terminal. Oh and the canopy comes standard from the manufacturer with a single break setting.



p.s. I am not actually looking for an answer - just some food for thought

The best part here Mick is there can be no answer since there was no question. I think you have officially stumped the chumps.

+1

...but who you calling a chump...punk...