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Is High Ultimate exit an acceptable exit in the Swiss Valley?
An exit that prevents the jumper frombeing able to see the airspace and weather conditions below and requires a very strong push and also good footing in order to clear a large underhung section, also located in a very busy and now high profile part of the valley. Does experience make it safe? Is it possible to nail the right exit 100% of the time?
I have never jumped it, I don't think there is an exceptable margin for error in that exit so have always stayed away, especially as there are 3 more exit points that offer pretty much the same altitude and are in the same area. It seems to me that every other person I meet has a horror story or a near miss from High Ultimate. Looking back over the past year, a higher percentage of incidents occur there than other exits in the valley, not supprising really but from a statistical point of view, the safety record of the valley could be easily improved if either a permanent ramp that actually fully clears the underhung section was installed, or jumping there is suspended. Is the closing of the valley to jumpers inevitable or can we do something other than just wait for it to happen?

it comes down simply to the fact that a large portion of jumpers (like people in general) are sheeple. they start out in the valley with the intention of playing conservatively. then suddenly they run into some other jumpers at yellow ocean that tell them everyone is heading to xxx jump and that they'll be fine. even though knowing they will be out of their comfort zone, they decide to follow the group rather than be isolated on a less technical jump to actually gain some skill and experience.

the reality is that the HU exit is a perfectly viable exit when proper conditions are present. you need relatively sure footing for the launch, but really no more so than any other exit. you also do not need some absurdly strong initial push. if the exit was wet it could make a slipping hazard, big surprise. i think the wall might just psych people out. it's really not a big deal to leap over. i've jumped it many times practically just walking over the edge. including jumping from further back to follow someone off on a two way.

granted, the lower is probably a safer exit point, but you do have to descend down a rope which could add another two minutes to your 5 min walk to the gear up area.

unfortunately there is no way to enforce personal responsibility.

It would be nice if jumpers would stick to their personal skill level, and respect their own safety. Education and judgement are the key improvement points here... not trying to limit what exits can/cannot be jumped. The beauty of this sport is in the freedom to make choices for ourselves. I just wish that jumpers, especially those in the newer generation, would start to take this shit seriously. And as for the older, wiser, or luckier jumpers who have been around awhile: if you have something to teach, make a point of teaching. Tell the stories, take newer jumpers to safer exit points, and be a positive influence by sharing your experience. That will save lives, and help the image of BASE at the same time. make an actual effort to be a positive influence, and I guarantee you will earn more respect than by simply venting online about incompetence...ra ra ra.... whenever someone craters.
Play safe.
-JK

The jump is perfectly viable, and probably my favorite in the valley, as with many of the recent problems in the valley, if you aren't experienced, or confident with running exits where you need to clear some talus, then DONT JUMP. overconfidence and lack of experience kill!

+1

It seems that our only answer is to rail on the new guys and keep repeating the same pleas for more personal responsibilty when that approach has and will continue to have no effect on those that it most applies to, it seems out freedom to ruin ever chance we get is more important than keeping the valley open.

"to see the airspace" --> Right!
March to October: High Ultimate and Ultimate are closed from 09.00-16.00 every day!
November to February - open all day!

Check out our Stechelberg Rules:
http://www.basejumper.ch/...;id=19&Itemid=56

Thanks!

I was reading through the recent fatality on HU and wanted to see some videos with and without the ramp.
This one certainly got my attention!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_BJpN_SeXo

Considering about that video!! This was the first winter the ramp was there!! The ramp is still the same but now it is "much" lower so it starts more forward and there fore reaches "much" longer! On that video you´ll see that the two "side poles" comes maybe 5cm above the ramp. Looking the present videos you´ll notice they come more than meter above it !!!!!
It stil doesn´t go over the positive part but is still sticking out more.
And again statistics: High ultimate was started to jump september 2009. First winter there wore no ramp first year it was there was 2010 when this video takes places. There has been 5 fatalities on Ultimate. One from lower and 4 from the ramp.... all with wingsuits

its either this exit is closed or fixed (ie ramp extended to be overhung) -- or the whole valley will be closed

5 deaths? read above paragraph again

and maybe rename it to "idiot's suicide" or smth like that to remove the lure of the words "high" and "ultimate"

is it physically possible to extend the ramp? (from engineering standpoitn) how much $$?? would those jumpers who pay SBA landing card fee mind extra $20-30 or so to make this exit safer?

There is more to the story than the fatalities - Several people has struck the wall and, SOLELY out of pure luck, lived to tell the tale. I really like the exit but I've only jumped it in the summer without the ramp. It requires skill, commitment and must be approached with respect and caution - as with all base jumps! There is a clear red thread running through the deaths on that exit and we as jumpers need to get our heads fucking straight here. It's just too dumb and ridiculous to die in the same fashion as too many of our comrades has done there

I lived to tell the tale. 2010 , no ramp, shit exit.I didn't clear the ledge at all. Head down impact with my arms above my head, I bounced off got stable immediately and carried on tracking for about 5 secs .I threw the pilot chute and as my arms go up to grab the risers I notice my right arm is snapped and hanging off at an angle both hands are torn wide open broken fingers . So I unzipped my jacket pocket, carefully put my right hand in it and steered a left hand pattern to the landing area for a nice plf breaks still set. Some morphine and a chopper flight. Blood all over me.
unfortunately the camera turned off just before exit.
So I just wanted to say I won't be jumping that fucking hillside again!!

Hey Al,

I think pitching-with-broken-arm-after-cliffstrike beats my standing-on-a-ledge-with-dislocated-ankles.

Love your work...

Dave

Tracking andbeing able to deploy with broken arms is part of what makes me a living legend. Oh and a huge scoop from the luck bucket.

Does anyone know when the ramp will be taken down for the summer?
With the rapid increase of new jumpers progressing onto wingsuits would it not be an idea to take it down sooner than later as peak season is only round the corner...

Your second paragraph sums it up perfectly blitzkrieg.. Yeah, the ledge and the fact you cant see over can be unsettling, but with the obvious prerequisites being confidence in your ability and experience, consistent exits, a good sub terminal track and proper footwear, it shouldn't be a problem.

nevermind

In the next couple of weeks the SBA will hold its annual meeting. During this meeting we will talk about the ramp and what the SBA's position is on this topic. Until then the SBA will not make an "official" statement.
As mentioned, the ramp was not set up by the SBA, it’s a private project. We do not own any exits in the valley, our only goals are to make jumping as save as possible and to keep jumping legal in Lauterbrunnen.
Opinions on this topic by SBA Members are private and do not necessarily reflect (until now) the SBAs view.

Would a 3 feet longer ramp have saved few lives ?
If yes I believe a bigger platform should be built at the exit.

There is then a probability to see more people, including less experienced ones, trying that jump.
But if the jump is safer, would this be a problem ?
Can we assume a longer ramp would make this jump pretty much equal to High Nose in term of difficulty/risk ?
If yes, maybe this is the way to go.

Building a platform at the exit may be against original spirit, but here is Disneyland anyway and we are talking about saving lives.

I've never jumped in Switzerland so what do I know. But I imagine some of the allure of these jumps is the fact that you do in fact have to clear it.

Following Michi´s post above, as a disclaimer, all below are my personal views. Nothing to do with my position in SBA or nothing to be taken as a "official statement" from the SBA.

Maybe a 3 feet longer ramp could have saved couple of lives. Could be. But for sure, 30 feet or 300feet ramp would be even safer. How about if we would just build a gigantic ramp over the whole valley so you could jump in the middle of it without any possibility of hitting anything. Or I have even a better idea still, how about coming up with some kind of metal thing which would have an engine on it. Kind of like moving ramp where you could jump from high above everything and make sure there is nothing below? Just to make it really safe.

Oh wait... But I think that has already been invented... It is called skydiving.

I disagree. Skydiving already exists in the valley and it does not prevent people from dying @ HU. So my proposal works better.

+1

Destroy the f*cking ramp !

Maybe they could blast it out until it was overhung. No need for a ramp
take care,
space

This "ramp or no ramp" discussion has also been widely discussed in a reasonably closely neighbouring sport : http://climbing.about.com/...ng/a/ChippingDef.htm. Maybe we could learn from them and not go through this again in our own playground.

True that! I think the people jumping the ramp need to be held more to account and not the exit point. We all should be ready to accept the consequences of our decisions. Just because the valley is like a BASE Disneyland doesn't mean every jump is going to have a fairytale ending.

Correct me if im wrong but there have been fatal accidents from high nose as well. Ok i think longer ramp could save some lives but it's not a solution because people will still die, even from YO.

And if there would be even a 20m ramp people will not hurt themselves so often from HU, but then some new "hardcore" thing will come up, that only limited number of people can do, which will become as attractive as jumping HU without the ramp now.
In the end an army of bulldozers/choppers will be needed to make every exit overhung with nice long flat exit point

Back when wingsuits were first invented, we thought "hey, great, this will eliminate cliff strikes because people can now fly away from the cliff."

Guess what happened? People flew _toward_ the cliffs instead.

If you make a longer ramp to put people further away, they will just find another way to make it more dangerous--like flying back toward the cliff.


I think that discussions about improving safety at exit points are fairly useless. If we were primarily interested in safety, we wouldn't be BASE jumping at all.

Personally, I find engineering and "improvement" of exit points to be distasteful.

People won't stop dying in Lauterbrunnen. It will become illegal to jump and then people will die less often.

People will jump anyway. At night, dawn and dusk. they would find bodies that have been dead for weeks or months that no one one knew about.
Take care,
space

The idea behind a 3-feet-longer-ramp was not to change the configuration of the jump but save few lives of the ones fucking up their exit (that can statistically happen to anyone, including sky gods)

A lot of people on this forum are expressing what they like or want. I tried to answer to the thread from a different perspective – I personally don’t really care about the ramp vs. no ramp – so I tried to answer to the question: how to lower the fatality rate @ HU? I think that was the sense of the first messages.

So I listed the different options and tried to imagine what would be their consequences. Here is what I came up with:
1) close the exit -> no more fatality
2) leave the exit as it is -> will maintain fatalities to current level
3) remove the ramp -> will stop WS fatality but increase TS deaths
4) make the ramp bigger -> should decrease both WS & TS deaths

Sure theses are assumptions only, but this how I see it (feel free to comment).
So looking at this I thought the preferred option to minimize fatalities would be the #4.

And again, by bigger ramp I did not mean 30 or 300ft.

Looks like their is also a lot of passion on this debate about alteration of exit points - which I can understand - but why no words about the platform @ Via Ferrata?

They will still die, but it will be a lot less dying than today. How many have died of Cap or half Dome since it is closed? If Base jumping is banned from LB, people would actoally hike to the exits and avoid beeing seen. They would need to jump at night as the landings are open and sneaking away unseen would be very difficult. Jumpers would still die but not in LB. we are constantly working on keeping Base leagal in LB. But please do not take it for granted...

Sure, I know what you mean and in theory it should work. But in practice I think it would make people think that it is an easier exit and thus "encourage" to try to do more dangerous stuff, like aerials.

away of the latest fatality, witch person i didn't know, i do have respect and do not want to comment, my thoughts:

facts:
- the ramp is a good training spot for really expirienced jumpers
- the ramp brings a lot of unexpirienced jumpers on the spot
- the ramp makes the jump easier, but not safer

so:
- bigger ramp = more stupid jumpers
- no ramp = less stupid jumpers BUT propably not less fatalities in the valley because there is always stupidness where human think they can fly..?

i wonder a lot why people jumping off the ramp call it an "E"??? in my eyes it should be a "B". if you want to call it an "E", then go back to nature an leave it as it is..

safe jumps to all you guys

Training spot? so if you dont die jumping it , you are ok to jump it?
May be communication prob.
I see what you say as 'I am training how not to die on this jump by jumping it.'
Do you see any conflicts with your statement?
Could it be that 5 jumpers have died from this spot and I am better than them,?
Take care,
space

no i don't.
training doesn't means it's less dangerous, but you can put a lot of jumps in a row and learn a lot more than in the mountains. to me it's the repeating effects that gives the training, not the question of how much risk you put in it. that's everyones own decision, as long as they are really aware of it.


i do not judge in better and worse. don't get me wrong, my deepest respect goes to everybody on the list and i do not want to call them stupid in any way. but if you are afraid of taking your own conclusions and learn from fatalities, you shouldn't jump any spot at all where somebody died, should you?

Are you insane are is there a lack communication?
You seem to be saying that it is ok to train how not to die on the jump that one doesnt want to die on, on the jump. One must train elsewhere or?

One should learn from the deaths. it is your best advisor. But one cant do it if one is dead.

I totally agree.
Take care.
space

Thank you,...

Maybe, maybe not.
It’s difficult to predict without experimenting.
If after a year or so the results do not meet the expectation there would still be the possibility to go back to the no jump, no ramp or shorter ramp alternatives.
Or maybe that would be the right time to test something new, ie a catapult.

http://www.basejumper.com/classifieds/Detailed/Miscellaneous/Human_Catapult_System_-_For_Water_Launches_or_BASE_Jumping_8896.html

If people are dying it's because they made a missake, not because the exit killed them.

Anteoine following your thinking someone who brought that person to life who make mistake made mistake as well.

I don't write much but enjoy your posts and there blindness ;-)

I want the same thing you got to follow my thinking me as far as this !
May be you could explain me more what is wrong in what I said, I'm so blind that I can't see it.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
It is as it is.

It is as it is.
But for some people the jumpers are dying because the exit is dangerous, and not because they should not jump it because they don't have the level.
I don't see the blindness here, so open my eyes

What is wrong with the "High Ultimate"?

For me it's the name.

We all know that BASE jumpers are like moths to a flame . Especially the intermediate jumpers out to prove themselves.

If I found a "wall" like this near Brento I would keep walking and go find a better place to fly. For me the beauty in this sport is not in positive unforgiving exit points.

Remove the exit from the list, take the sign down and when you must talk about it call the exit "stupid positive cliff where a slip can kill you"

But remember I'm just an old pussy :)

Or call it "so easy only pussies jump it" or "exit for grannies with Parkinson disease " and it will loose all interest

Thank you for your feedback James, we will consider that name :-)

Emphasis on OLD... which means "Listen to Uncle Charlie because he's been doing it a lonnnng time and he is still alive so maybe just maybe he knows a thing or two and has seen a thing or two that might just keep YOU alive a time or two if you do."

Hey, how about a naming contest (prizes TBD)?

My entry: Dead Weasel Wall

Michi,
All you need as the CEO of SBA is to send the letter to Canton where Ebola Valley belong and request the new gondola to higher and more exposed positive exit.
This way HU will get secondary, shitty, lame for pussies object no one will be interested in. No interest = no incidents!
Simple! It is easy as the cable stripe would cost GTC only 0.000000000000000000001% of GDP .. Phew..

One thing I don't see clearly stated in this thread, as it's been going for a few years now, is the Reason why the ramp cannot go past the cliff, horizontally. Namely that the Swiss preservation ultimate society, or whatever acronym they are, want to keep visual scars off the mountain.

If we stained the talus more maybe we could push out the ramp.

Seems like the Swiss don't really care if jumpers die.

we respect your rights to die, which is different.

Should you disagree with Swiss decisions about how we want our country to be kept,you are free to jump Yosemite N.P. Or other nice parts of the so called Land of the free.

That must be the single, most retarded thing i have ever read on this site. And i shit you not, that's not an easy feature to achieve. Congratulations!

You're free to die however you wish in your own country. Please stay there!

I figured this post was "High level humour" ...

I live in Idaho because I got tired of people in California who "care" so much about my physical well being that they've outlawed almost everything I like to do.

Namely?

-
Hey hey.. Don't make Trump come over there and build a Wall in front of your house, to keep you there .
.