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I'm interested to know other peoples thoughts as to leaving a rig packed for ages and then jumping it.
The reason is, when I have opened my rig to repack it after storing for even just a couple of weeks the canopy is so tightly compressed it stays in exactly the same shape as the closed container.
Say you left it for a couple of months. How much do you think the material 'memory' will affect the opening time (if at all), if jumping something low? Do you think it will be good for headings? maybe keeping the canopy together more during line stretch or will it make it worse? perhaps holding some nose cells shut while others open.

Just store it unpacked until your ready to use it.

Was jumping from 240' A and:

I had a fresh perfect pack job that resulted in a 180

My buddy had a 8 month old pack job he only opened up the top flap to see if it was slider down. He had a nuts on heading opening.

It will probably work, but is your life worth that gamble. take the 20 minutes (or hour) and repack.

Jake

define "low?"

deployment method?

200 ft s/l? why not jump the pack job.
120 ft s/l? you'd be crazy to do a highly technical jump with that rig.

terminal object? why stress over it?

remember, skydiving reserves now can legally go 6 months in the US between repacks. it is more in other countries.

imho, it really depends on what you are jumping.

BUT, since you asked, repack it. ensure you do not have gear fear at the exit point. the rig may not need it, but your peace of mind will appreciate it.

I left one packed for 18 months once and then jumped the Perrine. It opened just as good as the next one 2 hours later. I repacked the PC prior to jumping that first one.

Two nights ago I jumped a pack job that had been packed for 2 months. It was from a 480 ft A. Opened briskly on heading. Its all about your comfort level when you step off that b*tch!

When I say low, I was thinking of my locals which are 240ft SL or 400ft stowed. It's not that low, I know, but I jump an ace 280 with a lowish wing loading so it already takes longer than most to start flying.
I think it would be fine but yeah, I was going to repack it purely because of the gear fear factor. I was just interested to hear what others thought.

I've often worried about this too. But I have noticed that the longer I leave it packed the faster I get a canopy. It has never been left more than 6 weeks, but after about a week the pack job settles and there is less tension on the pins. the snatch force is directed straight to the canopy without being slowed much by the pins (I can hear them pop when its slow) and it has opened really brisk and always on heading.

Not sure if this is even relevant, but it has worked its way into my head as being justifiable so I have started to believe it. The only off headings I have had (90-100 degrees at most) have been on jumps where the deployment was slowed (go and throws, early pitches, and fresh/tight pack jobs with shitty body position and low speed). Even poor body position alone is usually better than 90 degrees (so far).

I too jump an ace, but at a 260 with a wing loading of .7 it gets flying pretty quick. I've been super impressed by this canopy!

The one thing I did to get rid of this fear was switch to spectra closing loops to reduce resistance (not tension). I jump mainly low stuff, so now I can have lots of tension from varying pack-job volume and still have low pull resistance when it comes to pin extraction. This might be total bullshit but it has proven reliable on several jumps so far, and has eliminated some gear fear.

Back on subject, when the air hits my canopy I'm certain no stale folds are going to slow down it's opening after 2 or 3 seconds of freefall. All that nylon wants to unravel and inflate pretty damn fast.

I too want to hear other ideas. I'm always trying to learn what others know and think.

personal: 7 month old pack job, slider down, now worries.
witnessed : slider up wingsuit, over 2 years on the packjob. no difference.
i repack my skydiving reserve every 3 years or so and have no doubt it will work.

jumped a 6month old slider down off my first building.

it all depends on how you've stored it..

dIDN'T THE us Military (airforce) do a study comparing reserve opening times for rigs packed in the regular cycle (120 days?) and those left for several years? cORE CONCLSUION WAS NO DIFFERENCE IN OPENING TIMES. any riggers want to comment or expand?

I agree that it will make no noticeable difference at terminal. Therefore skydive reserves aren't relevant, at those speeds of course the air is going to catch something to get it open and if the air catches and opens the 3 or 5 cell before the 4 cell then its no big deal.
If there was to be any difference it would be on a go and throw with very low air speed. Which would be when it really matters. I'm thinking of the canopy coming out of the s fold and the center cell nose staying flat due to the creases and with little air flow it might take longer for the air to catch it and open. In that time the air might catch one of the other cells giving an off heading.
Anyway, I'm sure I'm over thinking things.

I believe that the results showed that initially there might be some minimal advantages to a fresh pack job. But if you were to leave it for a month then you could leave it for 5 years and the results would be the same.

Might make a difference, but I bet they all look like this coming out of the tray, regardless of timeframe.

With all things, just because it works doesn't mean it is a good idea.

im suprised none of the major base manafactures have not done this type of testing on their products, and if they have would like to see what they came up with.

You probably know this, but one of the fatalities was on a rig that had been packed for a while. It got wet and froze. Then it was jumped.

Correct me if I have details wrong. It is on the list, anyway.

Packed it when it was wet, threw it in his trunk over night while driving through scandinavia, froze up and when it was time to pitch it was a block...

thats how i deciphered it

Ye its on the BFL, but what i meant was that im suprised that the base manufactures have not done specific tests with their own rigs (base rigs) by packing them and leaving them (in a dry non freezing enviroment) untouched for a range of times (1 month - 1 yr) and then jumping them out of a chopper at a safe enough height and recording alt for deployment and issues the jumper witnessed. obv for this you would need experienced jumpers to be able to evaluate what they experience during opening and having their alt loss during opening recorded, not to mention several base rigs. but i think it would be worth while experiment to furter insure the saftey of their (base manufactures) products. plus im sure they have some spare base rigs lying around. But i see how an experiment like this would cost to much and take a very long time. Not to mention other factors.

Well, back when I was skydiving like a maniac, I used to forge the rigger's signature on my reserve. Went a couple of years and didn't worry. When I finally did get it re-packed, I was always there and things looked great.

Rubber bands are susceptible to ozone, and will degrade and crack fairly quickly if they are left out...I am sure you know this.

Also have left a skydiving rig packed for quite a while. No problems.

You will find that this topic has almost certainly worked to death by the skydiving manufacturers.

I dunno. Leaving a rig packed has given me gear fear. Did I pack this without the slider? Whatever.

Different sites require different pack jobs, so I would yard that sucker out of the container if you have absolutely any doubt, and I wouldn't go more than a few days.

It is just a pack job. Unless you are doing something that requires the rig to be packed for a couple of weeks, then use your judgement.

Military guys have packed rigs laying around for a while. How long, I have no idea.

Example of why to pack on time: I was doing a big E at night once. Couldn't pack where I was, so packed on a nice flat spot...at night. My buddy had to connect his back to the risers, and got the fear. He ended up going back down.

Backing off of any jump for any reason should be allowed no questions asked. If something doesn't feel right, just hike down or whatever. That was part of the code in the early days. If anyone gave you and crap, they were out of line big time.

hahaha funny about the repack in skydiving i can pm you why if you want but i think you know why.

didnt know that about rubber bands but makes alot of sence.

Iv had the same issue on my last jump, also a cliff, i use close pegs instead of clamps cos im cheap and they work fine for keeping the tabs on my canopy in place. but i saw 1 was missing from my stuff (turned out i used it to put up a shirt ) reopened the tray and carefully checked it was not there along with my slider being down. I agree 100% about how small things with your rig can allow your mind to wander. esp if it was awhile since youve done it. iv being tempted to write a lil note (stick it sorta in with the rig) after the pack to say all fine and if slider down or not so if its left for awhile i can be reassured that its good for jumping certain objects. But after reading this msg it sounds really gay and a waste of time

I think that code should always be there, people jump for specific reasons so they should not be hasstled ever if they personaly decide not to jump, for what ever reason (no explanations needed). thought that was still there, but maybe iv just got lucky with my mentor

The military has done these tests.
They have two parachutes packed
and properly stored for years.

Pull them out, rig 1 gets repacked,
rig 2 just watches, both get jumped
out of the same aircraft same time.

Difference in opening time between
the two was noticeable but neglible.

My own conclusion, for SKY jumping
with two chutes, agh, whatever, for
BASE jumping with only one roll of
the die and narrow margins, I'd go
ahead and spend the 20 minutes.

 
Till I forgot the packjob I whupped upon it.
Simple rule of thumb for me. Dont jump a pack job that i dont remember packing.
Take care,
space

the answer is the same as for the question, "what does eating out a 90 year old taste like?"

Depends.

i've left rigs for many months and jumped them happily. but, if i had a shadow of a doubt the 9 mins spent repacking would not be wasted.

You eat out 90 year olds haha

I use exactly the same rule of thumb for jumping a packjob as Tracy:
If I can't remember the packjob, I repack it.

*That being said...*

I know Jimmy Pouchert at Apex has done some testing like this and if I remember correctly he was jumping packjobs that were at *least* a year old if not two, and they were dead nuts on heading, with no other differences...TO MY RECOLLECTION. Anyone who knows me will tell you that my "recollection" isn't always 100% ;)

IMHO, If you know for certain that the rig was stored dry and flat, It would probably be just fine.
FWIW.

If you leave a rig packed for 6 month or so, you might be in for a surprise when you try to pop your toggles ( assuming they have velcro straps)

please explain...what surprise would I be in for?

Velcro straps have this tendency to lock up overtime if left untouched.

Can't say that I believe that. The Sheer strength of hook and loop fastener is very high while peel strength will remain relatively low. The difference over time is minimal. If there was a lock up, it would likely be the feel of pulling against the sheer of the Velcro.

My experience with Velcro that's been stuck together for long periods of time has been that it peels apart just fine.

lolz

I think they lock instantly when the two sides touch.

 Jumped three packjobs that were 2 years -3.5 years old this weekend, and a round that had been packed for over a year...... they all opened up pretty on heading.... including the slider up one. The only noticeably hard opening was on the round after a 3+ delay . Left bruises for a few days.
The velcro did not appear to be able to hold against my anxious grab , and even my flat old pin and snap with WLO setup was easy to peel and start flying.
Just my .02$

The least amount of time possible a week seems like forever but I only have one rig.

i cant see else that it might be a fraction slower on the opening should be anything..

But my Question to YOU is,if your in doubt why not just repack the thing? if you didnt jump for like 6 months you will enjoy repacking it anyway,plus you´ll feel confident at the object.. oh also you´ll be noticing it the brakes are storred correct and if the slider is on/off up/down..

If you want to be lazy take up golf thay have guys to carry their equipment and cars to drive arround in ;-P

jumped a few of longtime packed base canopys and they where all "swift, clean, on heading"...
i think sometimes they are even better than "fresh" packjobs,...

BUT:

always remember that the rubberband of the singelstow is made out of organic material,....it can rott away,..or loose it tension over long times on tension,...
will be funny result jumping without a proper singlestow

would be my only concern,...
my 2 cents,...peace

I know a few older jumpers who do not still use the primary stow so i would not really be that concerned over it!!!

Did you even READ my post?

What if your asshole was on your elbow?

What does that even mean?

pope, I wonder if he even meant to reply to you. If he did, then it's kinda funny. Do you even know anything about golf?

i did mean to... i dont understand how this thread is still active... when in doubt... whip it out... and no, im not talking about your pack job! back to asshole elbows, ky slides, jebs face, and whipping it out!

I recall Poynter's parachute manual addressed the issue. A minimally slight increase in opening time occurred for ancient pack jobs compared to fresh pack jobs. The main issue for BASE canopies is the rubber band on the locking stow, which is susceptible to heat. I too would be concerned about the pin tension of an old rig since the pack volume may have changed noticeable from what it was immediately after its pack job.

On a side note, I remember observing a master rigger pack a MIG-21 jet ejection seat round-like canopy. Talcum powder was placed liberally between the folds of the canopy during the packing process I assume to wick water from the canopy, and reduce the chance of the fabric sticking to itself. Ejection seats may be packed for much longer than standard parachutes and may encounter much more extremes in temperature and humidity compared to almost all other canopies. I'll have to post this on the riggers forum on dz.com to confirm.

When I started BASE, my buddy let me take his rig for a back-up or a rig for multiple loads. He only has a few BD jumps on it and it sat up for a few years. His comments was "I would jump that off a tower right now." After opening it up the locking stow and tail-gate rubber band fell into pieces even with the slightest touch.

You must've popped a few E pills before posting such a blasphemy

most posters on this board is americans they will belive in most what you say

Was jumping in Malaysia last month. In Sibu we were jumping a 400ft B. My first jump was a 90L with a packjob that was less than 18 hrs old. My second jump was a packjob that had been packed slider up since February, but i opened it up and yanked the slide off right before i jumped it and it was on heading.

I hate to waste a pack job. In this edit:http://fiveten.com/...e-day-2011-jt-holmes the jump beginning at :37 and landing at :57 is a pack job that was packed in March of 09. So with bridge day being October 2011, that means it was packed for 26 months. It worked great. Vertical Visions, of course, nailed a shot of it coming out:
http://www.verticalvisions.com/...-0959/BD11-00223.php looks like any normal pack job to me.

the problem about packjobs aint real the paack job it self but the jumper/packer
If you cunts didnt use your rig in a perioed that this is an issue you have to rethink 3 tings.
#1 your not jumping enough,do you really want to be a BASEjumper?Repack or quit?
#2 you already fucked up and has just recovered from your injury,rethink if you really is a smartass in this sport.repack your best packjob ever or quit before you get hurt again..
#3 your a rich kid having way too many rigs,if this is a issue fucking hire a packer you cheap bastard..

Answer to #1 Yes. I really want to be a jumper, just not to repack a perfectly good pack job. What better place than a high bridge above water to try out a questionable pack job?

Answer to #2 Nope, thats not my category either...

Answer to #3 yup, this is the category I fall into. I have way too many rigs, but I am not quite rich enough to hire a packer! Alternatively, I teach newer jumpers to pack, and then have them "practice" with our unpacked rigs. Holy cow, I am a cheap bastard, aren't I!!?

ha ha i guess so

I know of at least 4 incidents where jumpers were nearly killed by not repacking their rigs. It turned out two of the cases were daisy chained lines, one of them jumped slider up when he thought he was slider down (landed in power lines), one jumper did a slider down packjob on a terminal skydive (canopy blew up and he broke his back). It should only take 20 or 30 minutes to repack. What's the big deal about repacking?

can you explain why someone would daisy chain the lines and put it in the container? i dont understand this at all

field pack. one was lent to a jumper and the other case was the result of a drunken jumper.

Maybe its because Im fairly new to BASE... but personally Ill repack after 2 weeks. 1) I like the practice. 2) I dont want to question anything...

Keep that good healthy respect for this endeavor
and you will probably fair better in the long run

the problem first arrive as you think your experienced;)
1)you dont need the practice 2) you dont question anything anymore
Not repacking your rig might be the 3th thing causing you beeing in a possition you dont fancy ;)

saw the above question pop up ever since i started BASE,funny thing is that i learned from a old skydiver who saw BASE as suiside "in doubt theres no doubt your all ready headding troubles"
I do like it,it made me repack my rig a few times and it also made me climb down,just to experience after wards that my doubt really were my mind,but if your mind is in doubt your fokus is at the wrong spot and your more likely to fuck up.. well thats how i see it anyway.

And yes theres a big difference in between doubt and fear.

as 460 just fucking have that beer and repack the thing while listen to music only Yuri,Rastaman and Feral wont agree

Perhaps Im a bit lost in translation... but I wouldnt consider myself experienced at this point. I have quite a bit of experience with gear (over 2000 skydives, several years in skydiving, Tandem I, Static line I, coach etc...)

I will continually question myself and listen to that feeling in my gut if things dont feel right. I have no problem with climbing down or aborting a jump (and luckily the crew I jump with encourages following your gut and I wont ever be looked down upon or pressured if I dont want to make a jump)

Ive repacked my skydiving main on a few occasions when I just didnt like it or it had been sitting too long. I hope to contribute to this sport as long as I can and if taking an extra 30 minutes to redo a pack job allows me the comfort to do so...well thats my perrogative-just like making a jump in the first place.

I think you agreed with me... but in case I missed something I just wanted to clarify...

we are just making the piss in Denmark you repack your skydive reserve once evry year.. Meaning that 1 year packjobs atleast should be ok,given you store it proberly..
But in doubt just repack it it aint that bad repacking vs getting visitors at the hospital ;)

However, in skydiving you have (most of the times) more time and the heading of the opening does not matter that much.
Also the higher airspeed will take care of any wrinkles.

I see your point but I don't agree

plz tell me which factors you change when a rig is storrered correctly?

How will it affect a packjob beeing correctly storede from headding issues?
I would say its more likely that YOU tip a shoulder OR the packjob were bad already than a long therm storring would effect the headding preformance..If you can mess up your packjob while it were packed you really need to get a smaller container OR need to shorten your closing loops..

What we can ague is will if open as fast as a newly packed canopy?

IF the canopy were packed while beeing dry and were storred by correct conditions i see no way it should get moister to make the fabric sticking to each other..
But then again i packed my gear at sunrise while theres moister in the air jumped it 1 week after and the canopy still went out as fast as im used to..

But let me know if im wrong.. not that i´ll leave my rig for that long but send me one and i´ll test it out no worryes

Ofcourse if you want to do a lowpull contest,or jump off an object where you really need to rely on headding preformance due lz or things to crash into,but if that were the case you wouldnt use a rig stored along time as it would be gear you aint as familiar to as the one you usaly jump right..

I state in advance that the following is just my experience and my case. NOT to be used <automatically> and <to ANY extent>.
One day I packed my Fox 245 MDV for a SL jump (=very carefully, with only 2 wraps of rubber band on TG) and with my "special bridle" (=a bridle made out of 5.5mm dynema rope I use only for SL jumps) with a 48" ZP PC as backup; the 4 strands of Multi were out of the sheath.
I never jumped the jump I had packed it for.
My Prism+Fox sat there for a LONG while, more than one year, probably one year and a half (I have got another rig I sue to jump mountains).
Two weeks ago it happened that I went jumping a 85 m - 279 ft crane with a friend of mine; I simply opened the top of my Prism and removed my "special bridle" and put on a standard bridle with a 46" ZP vented PC; I left the 4 strands of the Multi outside the sheath (as they already were).
We climbed up the crane, we jumped it in freefall. I took 0.5" of delay, very nice and fast deployment, relesead brakes, did a 90° left and I flew for the landing, a very nice standup landing.
The landing of my friend (who jumped after me) happened more or less at the same spot where I landed.
That means that more or less we did the same vertical distance in freefall before deployment and more or less the same distance travelled with open canopy.
I weigh (naked) 67 kg - 148 lb, my friend weighs (naked) 90 kg - 198 lb.
I jumped a rig packed one year and a half earlier, my friend jumped a rig packed the same day (or the day before).
I repeat: that's just MY case and MY experience, NOT suggesting to jump a rig packed one year before