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I'm jazzed by wingsuit proximity flying, but I know there's a few hundred thousand feet of freefall fun and practice that must occur before I'm ready. So what I'm looking for is the best material to read to prepare my brain for what's ahead, plus answers to a couple specific questions. I'm starting with near zero related experience, but maybe some of these experiences help a tiny bit: pilot license, 100K miles on motorcycle, several years rock climbing and mountain climbing, long distance swimming, several years high-diving from up to 215 feet, skiing. But haven't done much for several years.

#1: What should I read to familiarize myself with equipment and techniques?

#2: In watching videos, it seems to me that most base accidents involved twisted main chute, or trying to turn into a landing at too low an altitude.

What causes twisted lines on the main chute after the pilot chute pulls it out? Is this due to improper packing of the chutes, or is it inherently impossible to depend upon non-twisting deployment of the pilot chute due to imponderables (wind-shear, slip-stream currents, etc)? Would I be correct to assume this is less common or fatal for wingsuit pilots, because they are typically further from cliffs and trees when they deploy chutes?

What causes too-low turns into landings? Is this from opening too low in the first place? Or is this just inability to judge height above ground or rate of travel on the "downwind" and "final" legs of the landing because ground wind direction and rate cannot be [precisely] known from above?

What are other major causes of accidents?

What percentage are pilot errors, either equipment preparation and packing, bad judgement (weather, bad landing zone choices, alcohol/drug influence, etc), and what percentage are "just bad luck" that are pretty much unavoidable.

#3: Now that you're a seasoned expert, what kind of early preparation and practice do you suspect in retrospect was, or would have been, most beneficial for you?

You can assume I'm alert and think/decide/act quickly and prudently in dangerous situations, anxious to gain knowledge and experience before I start jumping, and anxious to maximize expertise gained per jump once I start.

Unless I'm missing something, I'd prefer to learn with as few equipment changes as possible. Not just to control expenses, but also equipment changes can conflict with formed habits. In videos I've seen base jumpers repeatedly grab for their pilot chute on one side, then recall they've switched equipment for some reason and finally grab it with their other hand. I've also seen some always grab for their pilot chute with both hands - probably after having that experience I just described. Minimal changes of equipment (and equipment that works consistently) minimizes these problems. As an aside, please confirm (or deny) that renting equipment is a bad idea for exactly these reasons.

Thanks in advance for imparting your wisdom and experiences. I'm anxious to progress quickly, efficiently and safely.

All your questions will be answered in the year or two dedicated to skydiving. Call up your local drop zone and sign up for an AFF class.

That cliff diving stuff sounds crazy.

I was hoping to get a bit of up-front advice, before I get started. In fact, part of my reason for asking is to decide for sure that I want to invest that year before I get to what I really want to do. I've read a lot of webpages, but the questions I posted remain unanswered (to my satisfaction).

About cliff diving. Actually, I'm a total chicken. Really. I did years of 1, 3, 10 meter springboard as a kid first, then when I started high diving, I never added more than 10 meters of height at any time, except once or twice when no intermediate exits existed. So no dive was ever really scary. However, these experiences totally distorted the way my brain responds to heights! I feel a super strong urge to dive off any and every cliff (water below or not), which is scary as hell when there's no water beneath! I need "water beneath" to make me feel happy and free to fly over the edge, and presumably wearing BASE equipment will have the same effect after a few freefalls trains my brain that "this works".

I also wonder. Does being some kind of helper, assistant or ground-crew (whatever you call it) to experienced BASE jumpers give valuable experience and insight? Or is it just grunt work with little experience value? :-)

This will answer all your questions about, well, everything.
http://base-book.com/

Start out at a drop zone learning from skydiving instructors. If you read about equipment and techniques now you won't have any context to put the information in.


Yes. And other stuff too.


I really don't think you have.

may I suggest you fill out your profile? (especially the location part.) buying a local jumper a beer can work wonders.

there is an article on this site about getting into BASE, plus plenty of information on other topics. you will find them under Articles.

the book above works as well.

most of your questions will get answered when you learn to skydive. if you do not enjoy skydiving, then you will either quit, or be an accident waiting to happen in BASE. some "drop zones" (i.e. dz's or skydiving centers) are not particularly BASE friendly. when you learn to skydive focus on what they are telling you. do not try to link it to BASE. mentioning BASE can leave the instructor the impression you are not focused (or care) about what they are teaching. that's kinda rude.

if you can't master a wingsuit skydiving, you should not take it off a cliff!

I'm certain I've seen at least one. Next time I happen across it, I'll post the link here for your amusement.

But you raise a question I cannot answer, for lack of experience. Are you saying there are no "left-handed" and "right-handed" pilot-chute grabs on wingsuits? If so, that video really is surprising and difficult to explain!

Left handed deployment is exceptionally rare. I don't believe I've ever seen a wingsuit with a lefthanded pouch. I have only seen a few BASE rigs set up with a lefthanded BOC.

Since the wingsuit pitch is more or less symmetric (both hands come in together to keep the winds even), the idea that someone would be trying to throw with the "wrong hand" and then switch to get the "right hand" really sounds pretty nonsensical.

Everything you can get your hands on. Start with this book. Here is some other stuff you might find useful.


I'd suggest you do a more comprehensive survey of accidents than just "whatever happens to be on the internet." The majority of serious and critical BASE injuries result from object strike (either freefall strikes from proximity flight, or strikes under canopy immediately after opening). By numbers, landing accidents are more common, but frequently result in only minor injuries.


Lots of different things. The largest segment of causes are probably body positioning and opening heading related. When the canopy opens (and often surges) in a different direction than the jumpers body is travelling, the jumper is often pulled back under the canopy and continues to spin up into twists well after opening.



Not really.



Low pulls, poor decisions setting up the landing, just plain old being low in the first place, and about a dozen other things.

Turning to low before landing.

Thinking there is a safe fast-track.

I think this is a contradicting statement.

Enjoy the journey. Getting to your desired outcome becomes a lifestyle, not just a sport or hobby. As you learn more, you'll realize how much you didn't know. I learn something new almost every jump. And often I wonder how I had lived this long knowing what I knew during the last jump. It scares me how easy it is to get access to the gear and basic fundamentals of BASE jumping. And as I learn more and more, it doesn't make me feel more at ease, it scares me more because I know there are people standing confidently at an exit point knowing only what I used to know.

You can tread water, but you can't tread air.

Best of luck.

I'm temporarily near southern Nevada (probably for another 5 months or so). I'll update my profile.

I've learned a lot from webpage reading including just today from this website. But I still don't understand a great deal for lack of a comprehensive glossary with photos to explain the terminology. Attempts to explain terms in words often leaves me just as clueless as before --- someone really needs to create a BASE/wingsuit glossary with lots of pix!.

I'm sure I'll enjoy skydiving. I love freefall, and extending freefall for much longer must be fantastic. I can't be certain controlling chutes will be natural for me, but it doesn't look difficult in videos, except when the lines get twisted next to cliffs.

Is there any reason why I can't buy equipment suitable for BASE/wingsuit and learn to skydive with that equipment? Other than annoying instructors because my eventual goal is BASE. Do they really care? Don't most people wingsuit from airplanes first? What's their gripe? Isn't the main focus of skydiving controlled landings? If so, isn't that the most crucial skill in BASE too?

How do I find out whether a particular skydive center will consider me a pain in the butt because my eventual goal is wingsuit [proximity] flying? I'd much rather get training than gripes.

I'm sure wingsuit skydiving is fun, prudent and appropriate, since that way you get a lot of time to play around with flying techniques on each "jump". Yeah, I'm sure I'd rather wingsuit from airplanes first and get lots of practice.

Good one! :-) As a pilot, I probably made the invalid assumption that they wanted to land heading into the wind, but were too far and low from the landing area to reach it and then turn 180. Maybe BASE jumpers don't worry about wind direction. I dunno, I'm still at square zero here.

Another good one. I think you're an instructor! :-)

Let's hope not, for my sake. Since my goal isn't skydiving (though I expect that to be plenty of fun... and necessary), I prefer to make more jumps in a short time period than many skydiving-only folks might want to.

Boy do I know what you mean. Way too many times in the old days I ended up on a mountain climbing expedition with someone who was absolutely unprepared, and massively dangerous to everyone else. I never climbed with them again OR the formerly trusted friend who brought them along without sufficient diligence.

Frankly, I'm very surprised more people aren't killed in many sports, because cluelessness has become a national pasttime it seems (look at the highways). Hopefully I don't join those ranks. I am typically a LOT more careful and thoughtful than others when doing dangerous things, but like you say, I also have looked back and realized some of my choices weren't exactly brilliant. We do the best we can. We know we can die doing this stuff. That should be clear as water to everyone who snorkels, much less jumps out of plane or off cliffs. That it isn't to some is rather amazing.

I wonder. In your logbook (I hope you have one!), do you write down "what I learned this time"? It would be great if all base/wingsuit pilots did that, and posted them online. Better to anticipate and consider dangers than realize later, or die for not realizing at all. I used to do a lot of "visualization" of possible scenarios, and sometimes it has prepared me in advance for situations, which improved the speed and accuracy of my reactions.

Doing so would create a new group of internet-educated jumpers. I'm not sure that's such a good idea.



Most BASE containers are not TSO'd. Taking a non-TSO'd rig out of an airplane in the USA is likely to cost the pilot his license. You'll be hard pressed to find a DZO who is going to let a student skydiver do such a thing.



They are worried about those dudes from that city up on the Potomac. The Federal Aviation something-or-other.



Lol. Twice.



Just assume they all will. Keep a lower profile and people will think of you as less of a pain.

Here's some good reading. You may want to start here first before you get too involved with the how's and why's.

http://www.splatula.com/bfl/

Hmmmm. So you think someone would really just buy the equipment and fling themselves off the Empire State Building or something... without any training or practice? Hmmmm. Well, what stops someone from making one or two trips to his friendly neighborhood jump center, learning the terminology there, then doing the rest on their own? Freaking morons can always kill themselves easily enough.


What is TSO?
What is DZO?
You sure you don't like glossaries? :-o


Wait! You're not saying BASE and wingsuit are ILLEGAL in the USSA, are you? I mean, I was just reading a website about BASE classes up at some 436' tall bridge in Utah (I think). What ARE you saying? TSA will arrest me if I have BASE or wingsuit equipment in my carry-ons? You must be kidding! Time to move to Switzerland, I guess. That's where I'll end up anyway at the end of this journey, I assume.

Hmmmm. Somehow, I don't think skydiving is much about freefall. Anybody can fall. :-) Gotta be about operating the equipment and landing. If not, maybe I'm only at step negative-one. :-)

Don't lots of people do skydiving with wingsuits, with no intention to ever BASE jump in them? I'm missing something here. What is it? You make them sound like a bunch of flaming racists or something.

Yes, thanks very much for thinking of sending me that link. That's very appropriate.

I found that webpage a couple weeks ago, and read every word. Twice. It is definitely required reading, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure I'll read it at least five more times over the next year. I learned several lessons and things I'll never do from that webpage, and I don't even know squat yet.

It would be great if they also had an equivalent for injuries (and crashes w/o injury), because the mistakes and malfunctions involved are easier to understand with greater detail and reliability, since the people are still alive to report their experiences.

Stop being a troll! Everyone on this site is really good at flaming those who have the misconception that BASE starts with BASE jumping. Almost every jumper on that list was an experienced BASE jumper or at least an experienced skydiver. To think that you have special abilities is an insult. No jumper I have ever met wants to keep people from jumping, they just want to keep people from dying. And I may speak for myself here, but it's not that I want to keep you from dying, it's just I don't want you to die BASE jumping. It makes it harder for me to make jumps. If this new interest lasts long enough for you to finish an AFF class than you won't have to ask most of the questions you already have asked.

You said you're a pilot but you don't know what TSO means? Come on dude, stop lying to kick it. If you're going to troll a website than at least research your bullshit.
http://www.faa.gov/...esign_approvals/tso/ Pretty sure this is covered in ground school here in the US of A. Even the military has to adhere by FAA regulations.

Geez, Louise! Sorry for hurting your feelings.

Where did I give the impression I thought BASE starts with BASE? I asked questions about starting the process, this IS the "Beginners" forum, right? So sorry for being a... beginner. Really. I had no intention to offend you.

I have special abilities? Certainly not yet, at least not in skydiving, BASE or wingsuits. Not even sure what you're talking about, or what set you off.

I can assure you, any impression I gave you that I'm careless is unwarranted, so I'm not sure why you're afraid I'm going to screw up your favorite activity by killing myself. If you don't want to answer my questions, that's perfectly fine. Why can't others... if they want to? I appreciate their efforts.

And finally, I got my pilot license a long time ago. You can be sure I've forgotten more than just a few acronyms in the past umpteen years. I guarantee it.

Read the Great Book of BASE and do more observing than trying to pry yourself into acceptance :)

I'll read it, thanks. I don't care whether anyone accepts me one way or the other. What is that for, anyway? Nobody has ever accepted me, and I couldn't care less. I'm just looking for information. Period.

Why do you think that might be?

I think it does...

Hmmm. Trick question. How about, because they practiced a lot, and maybe because most people don't post as many of their screwups? Just guessing. Probably like a lot of things... not difficult until something goes wrong.

"Hurting (my) feelings..?" "What set (me) off..?" I'm set off? okay. If you say so.

I'll tell you right now, I'm happier than Elton John eating a corn dog on Coney Island in early July.

I think if you have read through the "beginners forum" like you should have before you posted anything you would see that my response to your ridiculous request for information was less offensive than most. Here is some reading you may have missed.
http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

It's the shortest thread in the whole "beginning forum", it's STICKY, and you have fucked it off completely. So maybe I'm out of line (and probably really drunk because thats the only time I get on this porn/BASE machine called a computer) but if someone who runs the site "sticky's" a thread that explains what to do before posting I would at least reference the fact that you are gaffing him off so he at the vary least knows that his efforts to control the forums are worthless.

If you really want to proximity fly so bad then just buy a wingsuit and the rig I have on the classified forum. It's a pretty good wingsuit rig (minus dynamic corners) for all the reasons you have probably already read about. It has low jumps, and I'm asking a pretty fair price. You won't have a lot of equipment changes, which was a big concern if I remember, and it's great for controlled landings which is the biggest thing you'll have to worry about in skydiving or BASE. I've tried to be cautious to whom I sell it to, but I think since you're a swimmer and a climber you will do fine. I'll include a packing video and a youtube link on how to be awesome.

I remember a week ago I was all confused because a relatively new jumper, but one who knows better, posted a mistake he made on this website. He was totally flamed for it even though he was just trying to say in his own twisted way, "remember new guys, mistakes happen so don't do this." It was almost like a cry for help to justify his injuries. I remember ALMOST feeling bad for him because of how harsh but honest his responses were. In fact, I was reminded of what not to do more by the responses than by his post. JUMPERS WILL PICK THINGS APART! You either grow tough skin and learn from it, or you get butt hurt and go away.

I'll jump at least once with someone who has paid their dues and taken the minimum recommended steps to get into BASE, before I ever jump with someone who has no history. Shit happens, and anyone I leave an exit point with I'm willing to care for in any circumstance. If someone wants to BASE so bad that they cant even learn to skydive first, then they probably have no interest in the best part about the sport (and it aint the jumps, buddy).
Here's a tip for you, contact this guy, get some pointers, than try again. http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread I still have no idea what his name is since he goes by a super retarded nickname, but I look forward to seeing the guy at an exit. He did shit right.
PEACE

I think he might be referring to you reading the bfl and saying "I learned several lessons and things I'll never do from that webpage, and I don't even know squat yet."

I've been lurking here on a daily basis two months now trying to resist every temptation of posting (almost successfully, since I know that most of my questions will answer themselves by google or further reading) and it seems that being a non jumper reading the bfl thinking Oh here's another thing not to do, scribbling down something like "Do not get offheading openings" is seen as naïve. Yes it was an exaggerated statement, but many a jumper on that list were very experienced and did mistakes which anyone could have made. And it's very easy to sit in the comfort of ones home trying to memorize all the things not to do.

I sure did it too, but right now Im just trying to find out as much as possible about taking it slow, jumping with a margin to ones ability, should something go less than optimal.

Don't know why I'm writing, maybe it's a bit for myself aswell. If I'm not contributing I shall go back to lurking in the shadows. I just felt that we were a bit in the same spot. Proximity flying got me here in the first place too, but I'm letting go of that now, seems even my subconscious is realizing that i can wait a couple of years with that.

Oh, and yes, get the book. Half of it is about why not to jump, and the other half is about doing it safely. Worth every penny. Even so, it kind of motivates. I sat there, reading thinking Why on earth would anyone want to jump? But they do it, they love it, so it must be quite amazing. But who knows, I might just fall in love with skydiving on the way, stay there and that'd be okay too..
Sorry for wasting your time :)

You're not wasting my time (only "theirs", maybe).

I have a feeling I'm going to find a certain "attitude" common in skydiving, BASE, wingsuit flying and proxi... or maybe 4 separate attitudes. That's okay. Maybe they've seen too many friends die (like one), and they just know newbies just can't understand. They're right about that, of course.

Maybe after I've gotten a ways into this activity, I'll understand. But probably not, because I generally have a different attitude than others, no matter what I'm doing. But we'll see. Most of what I've done previously was solo by necessity or choice (diving, skiiing, swimming, snorkeling, long bike journies). I'm okay meeting people, but that's not why I do anything. I certainly don't do anything to show off. I couldn't care less about that. I'm basically a hermit, albeit a high-tech one.

I plan to take this slow quickly, if you know what I mean, though it may not work out that way. What I mean is, many jumps per day/week/month, but not push myself much on any individual jump. I generally know when I'm starting to push something. When I do, I back off. Most especially, I tend to take very modest size steps. No giant leaps for mankind, just a long trail of baby steps. If it takes me 2 years to get to proxi in Switzerland, so be it. If 1 year works, that's fine too. It takes what it takes.

I ordered the book. I was surprised to learn Matt Gerdes wrote it, because I had several conversations with him recently and didn't know he wrote a book. I hope it explains the equipment! :-)

The one thing different between you and me is... I know why I want to do this. I totally love diving from high places, and expect wingsuit proxi will be even better because there's more time to enjoy, more control over the process, and more options. I do wish earth was only 1/2 G though, because it would be even better if the vertical and horizontal speeds were only half what they are. But that's the breaks. I think I'll enjoy [wingsuit] skydiving from high altitudes with lots of time to enjoy the experience and play around, and also reasonably long wingsuit flights from cliffs (or helicopter drops). What I doubt I'll have any interest in is jumping, then throwing the PC after only one or two seconds! If I'm starting that low, I'd rather go without any equipment at all (into 30+ feet of water, of course).

Good luck with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Maybe they should make a pre-beginners forums for people like us, so we don't annoy anyone.

They do...

http://www.dropzone.com

I hope you'll have fun with the go 'n' throws and 1sec's too, they seem to be a good way to practice stable exits w/o half day hikes :)

A heads up from something the book will tell you also (at least for next time talking with Matt Gerdes). He has dedicated a whole page in the end of the book to rant about the misuse of the word "proxy".


Now I shall go back to lurking silently :)

No, don't hide! :-) Besides, now you need to explain why Matt says "proxy" on his webpage at http://base-book.com/getting-into-proxy-flying

Or maybe that's not his article. I thought it was. Maybe he just "gave up" or figured putting "proxy" in quotes took care of the problem. Hahahahaha. Actually, usually I write "proxi" to distinguish, though probably I forgot once or twice.

I'm not sure how having no spare time to correct helps you make stable exits! Seems like it just risks giving us the death penalty for excessively non-stable exits. Seems like the best reason for "quickies" is because we don't want to travel to Switzerland every time we jump. Woops, better not start inventing my own terms, or I'll really get my chops busted.

I think the "Getting into "proxy", dude." title in the sidebar kind of explains it all. It's just very "cool". :)

Plus no one said that short delays in any way equal having little time to correct issues. Shorter delays would equal more time to deal with problems, wouldn't you agree? Unless you mean that short delays equal low jumps. And that doesn't really sound like a fit training strategy.

[Edit] I misunderstood what corrections you meant.
But as far as I'm led to believe one second of unstable freefall is better than for example five. Apparently, to fully recover from a bad exit can require something like 10+seconds so I'd rather just have less time to really go out of control. But I feel bad debating with you with no base jumps. I'm guessing as much as you are. Plus all of this is in the book anyway. :)

as a skydiving instructor, you sound like an absolute nightmare to teach. you seem fixated on one goal with little interest to learn the basics.

I bet you will complain that everyone is holding you back. you'll moan that you know what's best for you, and you might then proceed with little to no guidance.

that is the attitude that displays incredible insensitivity to those who are trying to help you.

it is also the attitude that gets jumpers hurt. it is also why I'd oppose a "glossary." there are enough deaths every year already.

as a student pilot, do you think your instructor will want to listen to your dreams of aerobatic flight when he struggles to get you to make coordinated turns?

slow down. breathe. relax. attempt to absorb what people are telling you. you'll learn faster than if you try to skip steps. keep the horse in front of the cart.

Skydiving -> loads of regulation
BASE -> regulation? ha!
it leads to a cultural clash at many dz's.

Cool that you are "jazzed" about it but there is no guarantee that even several hundreds of thousand feet of freefall practise will make you ready for it. Actually there are lot of people who are never ready for it and even do not want to be. And that's totally fine.


Helps you to understand over aerodynamics but that's about it. Aerodynamics of a wingsuit are quite different than a fixed wing with an engine though.


Unless you are planning to ride an motorcycle down a cliff while wearing a wingsuit does not really help at all.


Helps you a lot on getting to some more advanced exits later in your career but not that much with the actual flying thing. Of course overall having sporty background probably helps since you probably have pretty ok coordination skillis and body position awareness.


Helps you maybe stay afloat and survive after landing your wingsuit into Norwegian fjord after failed attempt on crossing the thing but again, does not really help with the actual flying.


Would be very helpful for the non ws-exits since you already have some experience to manouver your body in zero air but according to your writing you are not interested in this. You just want to proxy fly. Unless you have som high diving experience with a ws this is not very helpful in the flying thing.


I do not even know how you thinkg skiing would be helpful but maybe it is. Shane was one of the best freeskiers in the world and also became world class base jumper. Although he was not so well known for proximity flying and since this is the only interest for you I would say doesn't really help.


Unfortunately in this sport the words anxious, quick progress and safety very rarely fit into same sentence. The best adivce you can get at the moment is quit being jazzed about proximity flying and stop focusing into it as your goal in life. Actually quit even thinking about BASE jumping in general. Book an AFF course, go skydiving and become experienced and seasoned skydiver because it is shit load of fun, not because it is somehow mandatory so you can base. Learn to fly wingsuits in skydiving environment, fly with your friends and enjoy that sport. Through multiple years of experience in skydiving you can start to form an opinion if BASE actually is something for you. If it still is, then approach it with the proper background and start the learning curve all over again. Then you learn how to base jump, through once again years of experience combined with your extensive skydiving background you might start flying your wingsuit off the cliffs. This alone is amazing thing to do. Enjoy it and do not be focused on proximity flying only because you saw it on youtube. And after all this experience, knowing the risks and your skills, you maybe feel like fying your first proximity line. Maybe you never feel like it, you never know. Cool down, relax and enjoy the journey. It is not only about reaching a goal one day, I can guarantee that it is an amazing journey to get there, what ever the goal then will be.

btw...

I bet you are not hearing what you want to hear in this thread.

I think you are seeing what you need to know.

the next move is up to you. will you ignore the advice in a fruitless search for only the answers you want, or will you open your mind to the reality that has been described here?

http://photoface.webs.com/...-count-to-potato.jpg

Have you thought about Hang gliding?

The speed is half the fun...

Yes, I definitely did misunderstand what you meant. My mind did equate quick pull with low jumps, which obviously isn't a requirement. You could jump from the mushroom and pull right away, then practice turns and such for a long, long time.

Perhaps I do have a bit more experience with awkward exits from my high diving, and a bit more experience controlling my body in dead air. But you're correct, in the worst of cases it can be very difficult to correct. When I've found myself over too far (too "head down"), it has been natural to me to add another rotation. But other awkward positions in dead air were more problematic, and do take a lot more distance to correct. In those cases, it was a lot easier for me to twist than rotate.

Like the others are saying, we'll probably get lots of tips about handling these issues during training... eventually. Not sure they'll cover this in skydiving though, since [presumably] we'll always be reaching terminal velocity and have lots of air pressure on our bodies to work with.

Like I said before (somewhere), I've found it very beneficial to perform visualizations of nasty situations, and figure out in advance what hopefully are the best ways to deal with them. Obviously the vocal crowd focuses on "learn from instructors" A LOT more than "self learn". They have a right to their opinion. I'm happy to combine the best of both.

I am not certain whether I'd be a bad student at all. Typically I am anxious to learn as much from people who have lots more experience, knowledge and skills than me. But, as a scientist and engineer, I have a very strong habit and philosophy of understanding things clearly in my own head. So probably everything I hear from an instructor will be filed away as "likely" but not "certain", always subject to me finding weakness, incompleteness or fault with eventually.

I admit almost everything I've learned, I've learned by myself. The exception is flying airplanes, where obviously I had to go through the conventional instruction and testing process. That didn't bother me at all. In general, when anyone (instructor or total moron) can clearly explain the reasons for their opinion, and they make sense to me, I am perfectly happy to provisionally accept their opinion pending further testing. Especially if they seem to be trying to be helpful with no other agendas.

The only way I would proceed on this with "no guidance" is... if nobody would help me. Since I'm no longer "poor", I can afford to pay for training, and thus I will. But yes, if NOBODY would help, I would do what I've done before, which is proceed VERY carefully in small baby steps with careful thought in advance at each step for "ways to escape disaster if something goes wrong".

I never had any dreams of aerobatic flight, but if I did, and I did not try anything stupid during my training, I would expect him to be perfectly OKAY with my long term goal. I do contract work for NASA sometimes, and they have no problem dealing with 18~20 year old kids who have long term goals of becoming astronauts. So I guess not everyone thinks the same way as you do.

You should note that I have NOT ONCE proposed that I intended to skip steps and be imprudent. Nonetheless, I don't mind you being sensitive about that, because surely you've met a lot of arrogant, hormone-squirting ego-morons who think little or no time or effort is required to achieve to advanced levels. But like I've said multiple times, I am a massive chicken-shit at heart, FEAR taking large steps, and thus always progress in baby steps.

I don't need to slow down and breathe. I've already given this several months of personal consideration, because IT IS obvious (to me, anyway), what a huge undertaking the whole path from zero to proxi necessarily is. Once I start, I expect to invest 1~2 years before I get there, assuming nothing scares me out of finishing part way through.

So you should not worry about me looking for information and ideas at a fast pace, because I tend to accumulate about 100 times as much information and ideas on my way to anything as others tend to. I am NOT satisfied to just turn on a tape recorder and learn to repeat what teachers say. It is my nature to go over and over and over information and ideas repeatedly, make lots of additional connections, formulate many additional questions, go out and find ways to get answers to those questions, and be highly prepared for the real, physical practices of what I'm doing.

So what you're bitching about, in my case anyway, is me being insistent upon being insanely well prepared in advance. I KNOW I insist on a lot more information and understanding at early stages than others do. That is my nature. Also, since I'm no longer "poor" (just terminally frugal), I can afford to go jump more often than some folks. Plus I work for myself and can take time off when I want to. That may speed the process up a bit, though I still think 1 year is a best case scenario, and said so in previous messages.

As for the "regulation culture"... here I will admit to your worst fears. I am massively, massively, massively anti-regulation. My life belongs 100% to me, and nobody else. However, that doesn't mean I would make statements to that effect at a drop zone! I don't need to convince anyone to adopt my philosophy --- they won't. I will follow skydiving regulations because that's required to get the training. And when the "regulation" makes perfect sense, I won't even notice it. But yeah, you can be quite certain my philosphy and mindset most definitely aligns with the BASE philosophy. Regulation? What's that? :-) However, prudence is my middle name. I am more than perfectly happy to "back off" when I'm not comfortable with anything I'm doing. So maybe I'm somewhere in the middle on your nightmare scale, all things considered. And maybe the fact I'm pushing twice the age of the average moron starting this process means I have had a bit of time to wise up. Let's hope so.

It may surprise you to learn that I completely agree. I figure there's a modest chance I'll reach a point at which I say, "no further for me", or simply drop it. As far as I'm concerned, I can stop at any point, except half-way through a flight. :-)

In both rock climbing and approaching extreme mountain climbing I got to a point where I said "no further for this kid". I think this is easier for me than some, because I do these kind of activities purely for my enjoyment, NOT to set records and any time fear or danger exceeds enjoyment, I stop moving forward, and usually back off one notch.

I can see that. It was helpful to hear Matt Gerdes say we don't "carve" through turns in a wingsuit like we can in an airplane (probably due to lack of tail fin and very limited control adjustments). So now, at least 1 year before I ever try to BASE wingsuit at all, I know we "slide" around corners. Having the comparison with airplanes helps, even though only as a contrast.

You are misunderstanding. Those other experiences are just to confirm I have SOME hand-eye-response coordination and ability to react to emergencies (0 accidents in those 100K miles). That was not to imagine riding a motorcycle somehow develops specific skills for skydiving or wingsuit or proxi.

Again, I was just trying to give a general impression of what I've dealt with before, not claim they were specifically related to wingsuit flying or proxi.

Probably it would just make me suffer longer as I freeze to death.

I think you guys tend to mistake something here. Like I said elsewhere, just because kids start preparing to be a NASA astronaut at age 18, doesn't mean they don't take preparatory steps seriously. Some do, some don't. Most of those who "don't" wash out.

I agree, see above.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy skydiving well enough, and I'm sure I'll enjoy practicing wingsuit skydiving to gain experience being highly stable and habitutating various moves. Of course, presumably there is some limit to that, because there's really nothing nearby to estimate how much you've changed your trajectory by moves high in freefall.

There is a tendency, I guess, to assume "jazzed" means "I will skip all appropriate steps, ignore risk, and just go buy a wingsuit and fling myself off the nearest skyscraper". That's not me, but I guess there are enough people like that to worry that I am. Consider that understood.

The only place I imagine "pushing it" compared to your advice is length of time. My goal is 1 to 2 years before I'm wingsuit flying from BASE, with 1 year being "best case". I'd probably not start this process if I thought it would be 3 or 4 or 5 years... unless, of course, I got addicted to plain old vanilla skydiving or something. But I know myself well enough at this point to know that is not likely (but possible). You can be sure I won't even be thinking about proxi while I'm training for skydiving. Hell, it is obvious even to me that learning to be expert with control, guidance and landing after the chute opens is absolutely necessary for a proxi flier (at least, at any proxi locations I've seen in videos). I see plenty of value in skydiving training, and having further goals doesn't change that. I'm a bit amazed that virtually everyone assumes anyone who starts this endeavor is necessarily imprudent to the max, or just plain suicidal.

Yeah, actually I have. And I do get the attraction. I'm not entirely sure why, but it just doesn't have the same appeal as flying with my body. But that's a good point and observation.

Perhaps the closest comparison is what is called "speed flying" on the base-book website. But yeah, I'm pretty sure what attracts me less about that really cool activity is the indirectness... the fact that you are controlling a device that lets you fly rather than you are flying (controlling your body to fly).

I suspect this is probably a personal thing. A great many people would just hate high diving for example, but I liked it because I was totally free, unconstrained, and what happened was 100% and directly me. And that's why I infer wingsuit proxi will be great for me... in a year or two.

typically, people follow a progression of crawl, walk, and then run.

when people lack basic information, they can not fully understand more advanced information.

providing all the answers to your questions bare of context and proper background has proven dangerous in the past. maybe YOU won't act recklessly, but what about the adrenalin infused 18 yr old? this is a public forum, and it's not all about you.

besides, if you follow the standard progression and simply start skydiving training, things will be revealed when the time is right.

virgins should not really ask advanced questions about sex. they should first take the plunge and build their experience base.

you desire to over-analyze and debate each point with people who volunteer their advice. keep it up and you risk destroying their goodwill and willingness to assist. many will interpret your challenging style as belligerent (even if that's not how it is intended).

without experience, it will be brutally difficult to understand certain points. get some experience, and many questions will simply answer themselves.

I too intend to crawl, walk, then run. That's how to become a runner. However, being a scientist, engineer, inventor type, I do typically try to grasp the totality to some degree right from the start, and work to integrate whatever I learn into the whole. Sure, that's not how most people work, but you're not about to change my whole approach to life, and I have no wish to.

I understand your hesitation to say too much without adding warnings for crazed 18-year olds. Maybe I'll think that way too when I'm doing proxi. But more likely I'll be willing to convey my personal insights and experiences between WARNING bookends. At least that's true with other things I'm good at.

Actually, my experience has been that totally insane morons will do what they're going to do no matter what. So giving them information in a prudent way, along with the warnings, might actually help... a little... with the understanding that nothing will help a truly insane moron very much.

Good way to get a girl pregnant on your first try. We'll have to agree to disagree on some things.

Yes, compared to most people at least, I do massively over-analyze things. That is my nature. However, you might want to consider this. All the time I spend on "massive over-analysis" is time I am not spending flapping my arms and jumping off volcanoes into magma. Hmm. Interesting thought, no?

Yes, many people DO respond to my desire to "over-analyze" things as annoying and sometimes belligerent. Or just silly or funny. The only way to avoid that is for me to become a mindless doofus like the majority of mankind, and just let [self-proclaimed] "authorities" tell me what I want, how I want it, when I want it, where I want it, and just memorize their sermons on the mount. And then just mindlessly follow everything they say. Needless to say at this point, I don't fit that mold and never will.

I prefer the private pilot theory and approach, where we the [student] pilot are 100% responsible starting with our first student solo after a mere 20 hours of dual instruction. Think about that. After 20 hours I got a multi-hundred thousand dollar flying one-ton bomb to fly over populated areas. Compared to the skydiving protocols I've read about, that seems positively outlandish!

I don't AT ALL intend to be annoying or belligerent, but if others are so quick to categorize me without sufficient evidence, so be it. I'm not becoming a mindless drone just because "they" want me to be. Oh, I'll happily go through the practices step by baby-step, because that's my standard practice anyway (even when on my own). But I absolutely, positively, completely and permanently refuse to constrain my brain to that same pattern. Sorry if that feels annoying, arrogant or belligerent. but there is nothing I can do to convince others to form opinions based upon sufficient evidence, not just a tiny few comments from me, plus wild leaps of inference on their part.

I have learned many points and entire sciences all on my own, and many WERE in fact brutally difficult to understand. If I was to list some, you and others would just dump on me for being arrogant, so I won't. That's my way, and I'm happy for it. Yes, from one perspective it seems a massive waste of time, and waiting for things to come to us certainly does have massively less overhead. However, my modus-operandi has advantages too, whether you care to admit so or not, and those advantages are worth it to me.

I'm an individualist. I don't expect anyone to do things "my way", and I don't expect to necessarily do things the way others do. Clearly I will be vastly more comfortable with the people I meet in the BASE community than the skydiving community, if your characterization is correct (which does make sense). However, I probably won't be nearly as far out as many of them. For example, I doubt I will ever make an illegal jump. Not because I respect "authority" or "the law", because I most certainly do not (except for the 3 core and therefore legitimate laws). But because I want to be certain to stay as far away from power-lusting "authorities" as I possibly can.

I'd much rather fly to Switzerland... and even stay for 6 months at a time... than mess with power-lusting authoritarian thugs. Maybe my attitude will change about that, but I very seriously doubt it. In fact, I'm permanently moving out of the USSA within one year to permanently get away from the fascist neo-nazi authoritarians and thugs who already destroyed the USSA.

However, from my very preliminary investigation, there appear to be a great many really cool places to proxi fly OUTSIDE of national parks... for anyone willing to pay for airplane rides to exit via airplane. There seem to be endless really great places to proxi fly that do NOT have steep enough terrain near the top to constitute a practical exit point. I'm not sure why this isn't a popular activity in the USSA given the insane prohibitions against BASE in national parks. Or maybe it is, and I just haven't heard about it yet.

You appear to be a smart guy. I don't know what you base your time frame on, but as soon as you start skydiving I think you'll re-evaluate it and you'll do so over time as well. Going from zero skydives to wingsuit BASE in two years is very fast, and my subjective opinion is that it's too fast if you want to progress with relative safety.

Building good reflexes takes time. Building a good judgment takes longer. You'll need to be in an environment that allows you to make mistakes, get feedback and improve. If you progress too fast, you'll put yourself in an environment where you can't afford to make mistakes. You will make mistakes, it's a part of learning. You can avoid a lot of them by acquiring the skill and knowledge developed by others, but you will make mistakes. If you do so in the non-forgiving environment of wingsuit BASE, your chances of survival is a lot lower than if you would do so during a skydive. You will not make all the mistakes in the beginning. You might not lose control until your 50th flight, or on flight no.100. Do you want to be 100 meters AGL when that happens for the first time?

Like I said, when you start skydiving I think you'll realize a few things and you'll also re-evaluate your time frame. As long as you remember that you don't know what you don't know.

Feedback from others is often times less tainted by your subjective opinion. If you ask a first time skydiver right after his jump how his landing was, he'll tell you that it was perfect, awesome, wonderful. He has no frame of reference. Nine times out of ten the landing was not perfect, but he's too high on adrenaline so he won't know until he's told. This is not something specific to first time jumpers, this phenomenon occurs throughout a jumpers active career. Without a frame of reference, without objective feedback and with your body pumping full of hormones and neurotransmitters your perception of events and your judgment will be tainted. When the first time skydiver is told that his landing was bad, he's not very keen on believing that. Being humble helps in order to evaluate your actions properly.

It's a cliché, but the journey is the destination. Have fun, skydive, never stop learning, see where it gets you. Good luck :)

EDIT:
Earn some jumps, and you'll fit right in :)

I will admit, you sound (on paper at least) very different to the usual "I wannabe"...

Yes there is a long journey, you maybe awful and cant skydive, you still do sound like a nightmare skydiving student... but I do see a little chink of understanding of what you are asking, and that is rare for someone that has done zero within parachuting.

Just focus on skydiving, forgot BASE for the time being... as you will be better placed once you have practiced FS, FF, tracking then the WS, (all of those are helpful in some way toward WS flying and awareness), then CReW & accuracy for canopy handling, to move forward.

Good luck on your journey...

Let me ask this. What if I skydive all day once every week? What if I skydive all day twice every week? What if I skydive all day five days every week? Are you saying that no matter how often I skydive, two years is "too quick"? See, that's the part I just don't get. Nobody HERE seems to be speaking in terms of 100 skydives, 250 skydives, 1000 skydives... only "two years is too quick". How do you answer this? It is really "elapsed time" and not "number of jumps" or "millions of meters falling" or some other measure of "doing it"?


Oh, I totally agree about that. I CAN learn from the experiences of others (if they ever decide to lend me their insights), but experience "doing it" is always the best. But I'd rather "learn from mistakes" with some up-front hints in the back of my mind. You know, like if people here tell me 137 stories about "this happened to me, and this is how I managed to survive", I might remember that when something similar happens to me. At the very least I would have thought about their story, visualized it a number of times, and tried to infer why their way worked, and what other responses might work even better. For example, I'm already fascinated by what someone called "flat turns" (or something like that), but attempts to find details and personal experiences has not been fruitful so far.


Again, I'm not sure what is the topic here. I'm not pushing to "do less skydiving jumps". I'm pushing to hear about experiences from others, and to jump more often than others could. Unlike most people, I've lived a very frugal life, even when I've been earning pretty good (only part of the time, of course), and so I have savings and zero debt of any kind (not even mortgage). And so I can afford to literally take 6 months (or even 2 or 3 years) off from work to devote to this. Does this make NO difference in how quickly I can advance? So far, people seem to be saying so. I don't get it.

I re-evaluate ALL THE TIME. That's part of my "over analysis" that someone else pointed out. I have zero qualms about changing my opinion about anything at any moment, given some observation or evidence to stimulate it.


Hahaha. Yes. Well, at least I'm a very firm believer in having lots of video of myself doing things to go back and review later from an objective 3rd person perspective. That is VERY valuable, and I am very sad I didn't have that opportunity in many of my earlier endeavors. My default position about skydiving (the landing part especially) is that no level of experience or expertise is ever sufficient. And that goes 10x for wingsuit BASE I'm sure. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop a few of us semi-crazies from doing it anyway.

And while MAC (someone who has a lot more experience than I) thinks you sound different, I think you sound ridiculous. When someone thinks that they can enter a sport where the methods have been tested and tested...where the path has been paved through years of injury, death, and broken homes...where people who have stood in the same place asking for direction, and than say that they "wont necessarily do things the way others do," sounds retarded at your present stage (which is 0). Anything you do successfully has been done before, so stop trying to be such an individual. Whether you live or die on your 1st jump...2nd jump...3rd...4th...10th...it's been done before. So find someone you trust, someone who is still alive, someone who is willing to teach your stubborn ass, and do what they say. When you no longer have to ask the "simple" questions you can work on being an individual in BASE.

There are scientists who jump. Felons, cops, climbers, cooks, lawyers, doctors, transients, engineers, students, and everything in-between. Your background doesn't mean shit until you start the process so stop bringing it up. Nobody cares.

I'm new to BASE. I'm pretty athletic too. I do every activity you listed, and since I get paid to do a few of them, I think I'm probably better than you at them. In no way did they prepare me for BASE or skyjumping. Maybe they will help you, maybe not, but you won't know until you start so stop making assumptions.

Now, David Letterman is on and the mountains on my beer can are no longer blue, so I'm going to stop typing this useless bullshit. The internet shouldn't be so damn serious.
Goodluck dickweed.
PEACE OUT!

I think he sounds different to the normal dross wannabe... but, I still dont think he understands what he is wanting to do, he has a little chink of understanding, but until you are in the mix, you just cant know.

I also think that getting into BASE without several years in skydiving, having friends die, and watching people femur, is also flawed, as exposure to the consequences also helps build knowledge and experience that doing 300 skydives in less than a year cant do.

Its all very well someone writing down their plans, the proof they say is in the pudding. I say the plan changes on AFF level 4.

Cheers, play safe.

M

I think the climate in this thread makes you go a bit defensive, or maybe I worded things wrong. I'm not saying you can't learn from the experience of others and I'm not saying you won't re-evaluate things down the road. I don't know you, but like I said, you appear to be a clever guy. See it not as criticism of you, but as general observations.

Time in the sport is a factor by itself, independent of jump numbers and freefall time. The more time you spend around parachuting (not only when you're jumping), the more things you'll see, the more reflections you'll make. It takes time for your body and mind to mature. Your skills is not only a matter of jump numbers, though they do play a big part.

Wingsuit freefall and proximity flight in BASE are pretty different. Not a lot of people do proximity flying. Wingsuits have been a factor in 33 of the deaths on the BFL. Outrageous is a big word, but adding a wingsuit to a BASE jump is dangerous.

Very true. I usually don't take the internet very seriously so I'm not sure why I ever responded to this post. I really just wanted to say, "I've been there, listen more, talk less." I should mind my own business and just focus on pregnant cakes whenever I feel the temptation to give advice. I like a good cheese filling.

You have a right to your own opinions. And if "ridiculous" means "different from averages", then I am the first to claim "I am ridiculous". Only, that's not what I mean by ridiculous. But I'll even agree with you about one thing... my way is NOT the best way for a great majority of people. That's just fact.

I hope you read my comment about the OFFICIAL philosophy of getting a pilot license. I think that's a prudent balance between "trust authority" and "the pilot is responsible for the consequences of his actions".

Also notice this. I came here to ASK people with vastly more experienced than me for insights. Think about that. While I may have a more extreme sense of self-responsibility than you prefer, did you notice that I was trying to elicit information from people with more experience? Did that mean NOTHING to you? Apparently not. Yet I do believe that I am fully responsible for every action I take after I jump from an airplane or off a cliff... or in any other activity in life.

I'm certain you're more athletic than me. And at this point, since I haven't done them in years now, I'm sure you're better at all of them. I'm not in this to compete, set records, or for false ego. I know that about myself because most activities in the past I've done solo, with nobody (and no video) to impress anyone.

Did it never occur to you that I might find someone here that I trust? That could happen. And I certainly don't brag about my drinking... especially since I have never consumed a drop of alcohol or drugs in my life... by my own decision since age 8, because I value every bit of alertness and insight my brain can muster, and always have, and always will.

At least I agree with you about one thing. PEACE.

Do you know what a tautology is?

Do you understand how silly it sounds to me to hear you say how "I don't understand"? Hahahahaha. Of course I don't!

Did it never occur to you that the very nature of my post was to state outright that "I do not understand" (?how could I?) and that's why I'm here asking people who have done it to impart whatever portion can be imparted through language?

To criticize me for "not understanding" is laughable. Why? If I understood everything, there would be no purpose in me posting a message at all. Duh. There are exactly two possibilities:

#1: I can gain insights via conversations before I go learn from practice.

#2: I cannot.

Your words say #1, but your actions indicate #2.

What I mean is, you don't want to impart any information except "you shall die, fool". But that is NOT information about the activity at all.

So the bottom line is, you say, "listen fool, you can't do this stuff on your own, without guidance", then you turn around and say I'm a moron for seeking guidance from people with experience.

Do you know how disingenuous that appears to me?

As for saying "I don't understand what I want to do", that's just silly. However, to claim "I don't understand all the steps along the way" is perfectly obvious. Yet you refuse to offer anything but insults. That's your choice, but you're being completely disingenuous about it and self-contradictory.

I hope none of you guys work at "Skydive Mesquite", unless you have vastly more helpful co-workers to chose from.

The thread climate makes it difficult to find gems in the weeds and warnings.

If your comments about winguits are correct, I'd like to know about it and understand why. What I infer from appearances is, wingsuits are no more dangerous than regular BASE unless you proximity fly (assuming you've learned to fly wingsuit in freefall first).

And I also notice that some proxi fliers stay quite a bit further away from the rocks and trees than others, thereby improving their safety I presume. Or perhaps their just less capable, know it, and respond accordingly.

So my inference was, wingsuit BASE is dangerous because all BASE is dangerous. But I also assume HOW dangerous is a very strong function of how close you proxi fly to obstacles, how many ever-closer practice passes you make before you achieve your final/best line, plus other factors.

And I'm sure it isn't even as simple as that, because winds can be different on subsequent flights, even on the same day, making subsequent passes inconsistent. Still, every pass must increase your sense of "escape possibilities" and "margins of safety" at each critical point, I assume.

Are these all stupid inferences on my part?

Look here: http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/Fatality_Statistics#Fatalities_Deaths_from_Wingsuits
Cross reference with the BFL and the incident forum here (all of the fatalities are not on the BFL yet). Make up your own mind.

Wingsuit BASE is dangerous because it adds complexity to an activity where the margin for error is already very small. You're more likely to suffer from a PC hesitation, make jumps where you have to clear an outcropping, get wing fabric between your hand and the BOC at deployment time (seconds away from impact), become unstable more easily, etc.

It's a long journey. When's your AFF?

Thanks much for this link. It will take me a couple days to study the information and see what I can infer. This is one example of the kind of help I was hoping for when I posted in this forum.

I wonder if more recent accidents are more likely to be helpful, since newer equipment is likely less problematic. Probably not, though, cuz I'm guessing most fatalities are pilot errors, not equipment problems, even 10 years ago. Guess I'm about to find out.

I still wish there was an equivalent for "close calls" and "lessons learned". People who are still alive can give a much better and more detailed description of what happened, why, and what they did to stay alive.

I know one thing about myself. I'm less likely to die because I tried to start from a terrible exit point, like on a slope with loose rocks or slippery grass or something. The activity has enough dangers already to add lots more. I passed on a great many fabulous cliff diving spots for exactly the same reason, and I was in better shape back then.

Not sure when my AFF is (or what that is), but I might head over to Mesquite Skydive next week to see what they have to offer.

Question: What if any gear should I consider buying for myself once I do my first jump or three (to make sure I plan to continue)? I'd prefer to learn with gear that translates as smoothly and consistently as possible to wingsuit and then BASE, assuming that's feasible.

No, that's not the bottom line. The bottom line is there's no point yet in asking really specific questions about BASE techniques over an internet forum when you have no context with which to interpret the answers. That's why you're coming up with daft ideas like buying the same rig for skydivivng and BASE jumping and doing a hop and pop of the mushroom so you can 'practice turns'. Even if you came back to this conversation straight after you'd finished an AFF course you'd be massively more capable of understanding what the hell everyone's talking about than you are now.

Or alternatively you could keep flailing about in the dark and attacking experienced BASE jumpers who were actually defending you. See how many people will be willing to help you then.

And instead of just answering the question, like "There is no equipment useful for wingsuit or BASE that is useful for skydiving".... or suggesting whether buying equipment for AFF is better than renting every time, you just give me another lecture about how asking questions is pointless. It would take less words to just answer my stupid questions.

That's not the answer.


You said you were heading to a drop zone next week. The instructors there will be able to show you the differences between equipment you'll be using for AFF and equipment you'll be using further down the line.


You came here to ask BASE jumpers their opinions. I've given you my best advice for the stage you're currently at. If you don't like it, that's not my problem. I don't owe you anything and I'm not going to start writing what you want to hear because you throw a hissy fit.

Fuck me dude.... How to win friends and influence people.

Re-read my posts, and see if I was actually insulting you, as you so wonderfully described?!

All i see in this thread, is the advice you need. Just because its not fitting your idea of what it is, no need to get agressive and defensive. Dont read inbetween the lines and find offence, read the lines and find advice.

You do write in an intelligent manner, and you are able to show analytical skills, but you are not showing social and human interaction skills (which I know is hard on a forum, but..), and you are starting to alienate the people you will be surrounded by, maybe relying upon when you have your own femurs sticking in your neck, should you achieve your goal... If you cant figure out how to change your tact to get the best out of people, then you sir, are the one insulting people, in their realm, about their passion, for which no matter how much information you get, you will never be happy until you are able to answer them yourself, because you have zero frame of reference at this time...

Done, good luck, and I hope you achieve your dreams... (I mean that in a non-insulting manner)...

-M

in a word, YES.

this site has thousands of words you can read. Articles about "How to Get Into BASE." Interviews. Forums. I could go on, but you don't listen, you argue.

a prime example, you just NOW discovered the BASE Fatality List? (or BFL) if so, your attempt at research hasn't been a resounding success.

your focus on what you THINK you should know is preventing you from comprehending what you NEED to know.

users here can match your credentials. people with impressive resumes post in these forums. many do not realize because these folks do not boast. BASE only cares about how you perform on the next jump.

if you want free advice, use honey. make people want to help you. no one here is under any obligation to assist you. (frankly, this thread has lasted far longer than most in a reasonably positive fashion. if you'd read previous threads, you might understand what I'm saying.)

I bet most here want to see you succeed. a wide assortment of users have attempted to help you. please make it easy for them to help you. stop making it difficult!

Somewhere a couple dozen posts ago...

You mentioned something about difference
in how wingsuits and planes fly in turns and
then guessed it had to do with the latter
having a tail and former having less controls.

How about Thrust? A plane has a motor.


For Your Information - YES, wingsuits add
complexity and hence extra risk to BASE.

Think about the restriction of movement...
or the greater surface area being affected
by wind, believe the numbers and us.


RE: number of jumps versus years jumping

Both are important, more of both is good,
of course everyone learns differently but
being around when jumps are made does
help you learn from others, sometimes it
is what not to do.

Thanks. That's what I call helpful opinions and answers.

Yeah, and some of those articles are very good and very helpful. Which makes me wonder why people can write articles that make lots of sense to me, but people claim I couldn't possibly understand their answers in this forum.

I did find the fatality list myself a couple weeks ago. What I didn't find was the breakdown that someone pointed out to me, that makes it easier to process selectively (for wingsuit accidents, for example).

Oh well.

I do find some people here are helpful. Others not so much. That's fine. Those who provide the kind of help I'm looking for are much appreciated. Others should give up while we're all behind. We can all chalk it up to different attitudes and perspectives. I don't mind helping people in areas I am expert to the extent I am able, but that doesn't mean others need to have the same attitude. No problemo. And maybe I am the fool, since I don't request, expect or accept payment.

 
if you would be half as dedicated and/or motivated as you try to make it sound, you would have been on a exit point already...

stop wasting your time writing and defending yourself, you're obviously not interested in comments from experienced jumpers...

buy a rig and get to the nearest exit point near you...

practice makes you perfect!

go go go!!!!!!!

Don't tempt me!

Wow! You're really that anxious to convince me to recklessly kill myself?

Still, good to hear a positive attitude, even if leaning towards insane!

Now, if we could just average you with the cynics, we'd have perfection!

You seem like a pretty prgamatic guy with pretty structured approach so I took some time here in the office to draw a basic flowchart to get started, the contents of this flowchart should pretty much keep you busy with the first year. Please see attached. To fullfill the first steps of the flowchart you find all the information you need from this website : http://www.uspa.org/...abid/54/Default.aspx

great job Markus!

Regards, Marcus

wow guys, I'm really impressed by everybody behaving so well in this thread! Respect!

I have 0 base jumps yet, and ~200 skydives. When I was a kid I thought it'd be cool to fly like a bird. Everybody laughed when I took the umbrella from 10 m at 5 years of age, but it worked and I didn't get hurt. I could hardly swim, but this was the closest would ever get to flight. Many years passed without progression, but when I started studying I bumped into the skydive club at my university. I've barely managed to get 20 jumps a year, except the year I worked as ground crew for a dropzone. Skydiving has saved me several times when "all else fails". Last fall I got divorced, so I'm back at the good old dropzone with a student licence again. I've found this is my lifestyle. I also do downhill skiing and enjoy canyoning (cliff diving with wetsuits and shoes).

2004 was the year I started jumping. I was first amazed by base-jumpers, then disgusted when I saw what risks they were willing to take. Basejumpers come from all corners of life. I don't think a lot of them are criminal for the sake of earning money, but they might be willing to break a few regulations when it comes to breaking an entry to buildings or antennae. Some have kids. Some are doctors. Some (but few) are skydiving instructors.

After my season at the dropzone where I got approx. 60 jumps, I sent my rig in for a yearly check and repacking the reserve. I was then informed that my rig no longer could be jumped because of major damage done to the reserve canopy riser by its own velcro. This is a part the owner of the canopy doesn't usually check personally, and I have no idea how long it's been like that for. It could not be repaired - or the entire strap from the leg right up to the top had to be changed. More expensive per remaining lifetime than purchasing a new rig. Then things went quick. First week of january I got my first job. By march I bought a house. By june I got a dog with my wife. And by october I got divorced. Still have the job, the house and the dog, and 3/4 is still pretty good I guess. whatever.

So I decide I'll base jump. No more of this skydiving bullshit with rule books bigger than The Holy Book, when the real problem is your instructor arriving with a cab still smelling alcohol at 8 am and you make a 5-second jump in high winds at a new dropzone. No more jumping when hung over. No more wasp nest landing zones in turbulent valleys. All self-assessed risk. Nice.

So I get myself a used base rig for my birthday in may (end of ski season) thinking I'd get a lot of help from local jumpers. Not so! Enroll for a First Jump Course they say. Oh crap. I just wanted to do a good old 5-sek drop from the Togveggen and now I'm back on a student license skydiving student rigs. Still got 9 jumps to go before I get my B back. I signed up for a FJC in june, but changed my mind after a local jumper smashed himself up in my valley. We all thought he was ok, and I was so disappointed when I couldn't get up in the heli with the local red cross climbing gear and get him out. I am also a climber, like you. But they asked me if I knew him and then got some other climbers. I went back to work and learned he died, it made me so sad I didn't go for the FJC after all.

Instead I went skydiving. And enjoying it! Flying student canopies is probably a lot more base-related than flying my 150 sabre. But I look forward to flying that too. I love teaching students to pack. On evening and night-shifts when there's nothing to do, I'll get the base rig out and do a practice pack or two. I think I have over 50 now. Whatever, I still feel there are things I should do better. I love sitting in the plane, looking at students, the instructor. Looking at the important job they do and how they get the best out of terrified beginners in a new environment. Looking at what they do to my behaviour and flying. "I saw you didn't check your altitude until 5000'. Do it more often especially when flying alone or in small groups." wow! Useful advice! There was one thing he could pick at and he picked at the right one.

In my country you need 200-500 skydives before allowed on a WingSuit. It's up to the main instructor of the club to say if it's a go or no-go. I'm ordering a tracking suit once that ex-wife is out of my mortgage and I finally get some cash. I'm going to Kjerag for my FJC in mid august. I feel like I've been preparing for this since I flew kites as a kid and jumped that umbrella off the 10 m, but sometimes it's necessary to wait. Sometimes the biggest thrill you're allowed is riding the roller coaster. I'm fine with that. That restriction is over now. I'm also ok with the instructor's decision on my progress in WS.

My dog and I are being trained for Search and Rescue. He's super motivated, but suddenly you know, there's a bitch nearby that's more attractive than the task. Sometimes you run into lemmings. It's frustrating, but it's my job to find a way to make the dog more motivated to find missing persons. We take a few steps back, make it easy. Start over. Progress faster the second time. This is how I treat my dog, and how life seems to treat me. All i know is I'm a bird trapped in a human body.

Some day I'll find my wings, that's for sure. I hope you find yours before you've jumped off the cliff.

In 50 years I'd love to be at the retirement home with you talking about wingsuit proxy flying and the sick lines we skied in chamonix, or that big wall we climbed and all the missing persons we found and the damaged people we managed to pull out that still made it ok later.

"And I also notice that some proxi fliers stay quite a bit further away from the rocks and trees than others, thereby improving their safety I presume. Or perhaps their just less capable, know it, and respond accordingly. "
proxi is obviously short for proximity and means they stay close to the rocks and trees
your statement does not make sense they are following the terrain closely.
of course by the time you skydive 200 times just to be able to put on a wingsuit learn to fly it learn to base jump you are going to learn all these things you are asking about.

HAHA!, Brilliant, I see it can happen to the best of them...

I liked your post.

Can I give you some advice on my progression to date? No flames and no attitude just hard facts of my journey so far….

August 9, 2002 – Movie xXx comes out in theaters (I am 16 years old at the time) and Vin D’s character steals a corvette and BASE jumps off the Auburn-Foresthill Bridge. I get so jacked up by this scene that it changes the course of my life. Instantly I want to BASE jump.

August 10th 2002 – March 2009 – I spend this time fantasizing about BASE jumping. People ask me why I don’t try skydiving and my response is “skydiving looks boring, not really interested I just want to BASE”

March – May 2009 – I start to do some serious research on BASE jumping. At this point I have the funds and the time to work towards my goal. Right off the bat I realize that Skydiving is a must and I sign up for my AFF. The whole time all I can think about it BASE and what I need to do in order to BASE jump. This continues for about two months until one day I get to the drop zone and realize I have officially fallen in love with skydiving. It is no longer just a means to an end. I have made some of the best friends I have ever had in this sport and had some of the most amazing times of my life.

Now don’t get me wrong, I am still all about BASE jumping, and I have spent the last few years skydiving and preparing for BASE. I am taking my FJC in less than a month and will hopefully have a slow and steady, safe and methodical BASE career. I have spent many nights hiding in bushes or waiting in the woods for winds to die just to be apart of someone else’s jump. Just to learn one piece of information about this or that. I have built relationships with jumpers who will mentor me throughout my career. I have revamped my entire mindset to the sport, its not about being at the exit as soon as possible. Its about enjoying and learning every step of the way as much as you possibly can. BASE is a lifestyle that has taken over my life just like its taken over everyone else’s life in this forum. Its not a sport that you do on the weekends, you live and breath it everyday ( and I haven’t even made my first jump yet )

All I’m trying to say is that there are ways to go about it. There is a wealth of information on this site for you to read. Start by reading some of the Articles by Tom Aiello or D. Weston about getting into the sport. Read about gear and read every post in the beginner forum. You have a question about something use the search function, its already been asked and already been answered. The people who posted on here are not mad at you, they are just tired of people thinking they are ready when they are not and asking questions that can easily be answered with just a few clicks of the mouse. Just think how you would feel if someone walked up to you just before you were about to do a 200 ft high dive and said “hey, why do you land head first instead of in a belly flop? BTW I think I can probably be ready to do what your about to do in much less time than it took you.” I just mean that respect is key in BASE, you will trust your life to anyone you go jump with and that is also true in skydiving (not as much but def true).

You seem eager and interested enough. Forget this forum, forget what everyone else has said to you, forget everything you have said to them. Call your local Drop Zone and go get certified. I Can assure you that the training you do for BASE will be some of the best fun you will ever have. You will then get to a point where you know (not think) that you are ready to start. At this point you honestly still wont be anywhere near ready you just think that you are, but your far enough along to hopefully not kill yourself (this is just what I’ve heard from every base jumper I have talked to, that no matter what you will never be ready). Good luck mate, be careful, be smart, and live your life to the fullest everyday. That’s what its all about!

well soup, i dont know about you homeskillet, but i dont wanna jump with someone who gets on an internet forum and writes a fucking ten page novel on "how smart and scientific and engineer-like and awesome" , and how quick and more knowledgeable and able to soak up information more than the average person that they are.............

and with me doing mostly solos lately, im realizing that BASE jumping with people who you care about is about 95% of what BASE means to me...............
the other 5 % is being alone at an exit and wondering why the fuck you are about to do this, and not quite being able to answer that question.................

being alone at an exit and wondering
why the fuck you are about to do this

Wow, what a wonderful story. I appreciate hearing that... all of it, because it provides context that helps me understand.

What did you mean by "skydiving saved you several times when all else fails"? Did you mean as a life experience? Or skydiving lessons saved your butt when something went wrong in solo skydiving?

As I said, but probably didn't emphasize enough, I haven't done any rock climbing or serious mountain climbing in years. Though it is so completely contrary to my nature and lifelong habit of being super frugal, at this point, I might be one of those "spoiled brats" who takes more helicopter rides to the exit points than hikes and climbs. As in everything else, I'll probably be looked down upon for doing that. Fortunately, I don't care... I just want to fly.

Like so many people, I've had flying dreams since I was a kid. That's probably part (but not all) of why I got a pilot license and enjoyed high diving. But neither is even remotely close enough to the flying experience we dreamed of, is it?

Yeah, I have a similar reaction to the door-stop size skydiving rule book, but it is very much a mixed reaction. On the one hand, I think the information content is great - really, really great! On the other hand, it is packaged in the classic authoritarian style that bugs the crap out of me.

I'd feel better finding some really great, skilled mentor who just loves to skydive [and base-jump] but can't afford to jump very much. I'd pay all his costs to train me, jump with me, evaluate me, kick my butt as needed, and tell me when I'm almost safe enough to practice on my own. I just don't like "one size fits all", and never will. And I couldn't care less about some self-proclaimed "official" rating or license (unless airplanes and helicopters won't take me up without one).

But looks like I'll probably go for the standard AFF anyway... unless I happen upon the perfect mentor.

Boy can I relate to the annoyance of base jumpers. Maybe what makes so many of them ticked off is the bullshit laws that prevent them from jumping from the best sites in the USSA (and others too). Who likes being labeled a freaking outlaw because you want to practice your favorite activity in life? What BS.

Do you feel like you "slack off" on diligence or carefulness when the instructor isn't watching you? I assume you're doing lots of unsupervised jumps at this point. Has an instructor ever noticed anything about your packing or preparation that would have [likely] killed you if not spotted first? Ever seen that happen with other students? Just curious.

Why did you not check your altitude until 5000 feet? Is that because you've gotten pretty good at judging your altitude by looking at recognizable objects on the ground? Isn't 5000 feet still plenty safe?

Oh, ain't that the truth! I bet just about everyone here is a bird trapped in a human body. Being glued to the ground so firmly just ain't natural! Frankly, I belong in zero gravity. Outer space is the place for me, but for next couple decades at least, wingsuit flying is the best I can hope for.

I got all those other activities out of my system years ago. Oh, I won't mind nice long hike-type climbs up to exit points, but I'm totally over serious rock climbing and semi-extreme mountain climbing. But the only one left, besides escaping this nasty gravity well called earth, is wingsuit flying.

Good to hear you're helping others in search and rescue and such. That's great. I like to help others when I can find efficient ways to help. And thanks for the helpful observations and insights in your message. It was great.

Thanks! That's just great - chock full of helpful information. I'll have to read it over several times before most of it sinks in.

Characterize a "mentor" for me. Is that [necessarily] an instructor? Just somebody who is good at skydiving and doesn't mind helping? What characteristics are you looking for?

I know that. But some wingsuit pilots fly within a few feet of the rocks and trees, while others stay 2x, 5x, 10x further away (at closest approach). They are all proxi flying, but clearly there are degrees of how close a proxi they're comfortable with. Makes perfect sense.

Another really great message! Thanks.

I don't have any intention to start my wingsuit flying with the first ever attempt to perform a "wingsuit landing". Hahahahaha! So it seems obvious to me that a high percentage of the skydiving experience is useful if not crucial to wingsuit flying and base. So it isn't that I intended to denigrate the skydiving part, even if something in my written tone makes it sound that way. And I expect to enjoy skydiving too! I mean, how could I not love freefall? Seriously.

Maybe I should consider running a parallel gig. Maybe I should do skydiving training AND try to find some [wingsuit] base jumper to help as ground crew, just to help out and pick up useful insights now and then.

I think my personality might be more suitable for dealing with serious beginners than most (talking about in areas I am expert, not skydiving or base). If someone asked me "why not bellyflop", I might chuckle a bit from the obviousness of the question, but if the question was asked seriously and honestly, I'd give a serious and honest answer... and probably a mild demonstration with the palm of my hand. And yeah, I think a serious beginner with some native inclination towards an activity could progress vastly faster than me with my help, because I had to learn without training, which is inherently slower (but does also have a few advantages, albeit too few).

Sounds like you have a similar mindset to me. I don't do anything for fame, fortune, recognition, bragging rights, record setting, etc. It is for my enjoyment. Period. And if I'm doing something with someone else, it is for both our enjoyments.

And boy do I know about depending on others! Most of my closest brushes with disaster and death have been helping someone with me not get killed. I've had to do things and get into situations that I would never have gotten into willingly. Fortunately I've not yet been in the other side of that equation yet, but maybe that is one unexpected part of what this "last" activity is all about for me. Let's hope not. I'd be incredibly pissed at myself if I do anything that requires someone else to risk their ass to help me out of a disasterous situation. If it is something completely unpredictable (like a freak avalanche), then I'd still be unhappy, but understand that's part of the risks.

Yeah, some of the articles are real nuggets.

Actually, I don't think anyone is ever completely ready to jump off a cliff and proxi fly. Even though I feel utterly safe diving from 200 feet, something inside me knows that's BS. Or even just a few hours snorkeling off the shores of Maui... I mean, I'm a freaking fish and can swim for endless hours. But even then, I know strange and unexpected things can happen, and sometimes do. None of these activities is "safe" in the real sense. And neither is driving on the highway.

Makes me remember when I rented an airplane and flew from Monterey to Tucson, then back again after a few days. On the way back I landed just before sunset to refuel, then took off for the final leg from southern california to Monterey. When it started to get dark I switched on the instrument lights. No instrument lights! WTF? It got dark quick, and I had to fly the rest of the way back in pitch blackness with no instruments to watch. The only lights I could see were cars on route 101 and lights of the towns along the way. When I got back the freaking morons said, "Oh, right! I didn't know you'd be flying at night.". Oh really? Anyway, as if I needed that experience to remind me, life can be dangerous! You got that right.

Thanks for relaying your experiences.

Oh, I have a question for you, related to the very unfortunate "illegality" aspect of base in the USSA (at least in national parks where almost all the best exit points are).

There seem to be many places outside the national parks that would be damn cool places to proxi fly or even just pseudo-base-jump (except from a plane or helicopter). The problem doesn't seems to be a complete lack of cool geology to fly past, or a lack of places where the slope is greater than 1:1 to 1:2. The problem is, most of these places don't have a high enough cliff at the top to get some horizontal velocity going before you reach the 1:1 ~ 1:2 slopes.

So the question is, why don't [wingsuit] base pilots rent a plane or helicopter ride up high above such places and exit from there? You'd have plenty of drop to pick up horizontal speed before you reach anything you want to track or proxi fly past. And you don't risk getting arrested! I mean, I don't get the impression that very many base jumpers actually enjoy the part about getting busted, or having to evade them. Or is this common practice and I just haven't heard of it (except for a bunch of youtube videos where they do just this, then fly along the Eiger or Matterhorn).

pilot's don't generally like putting their pilot certificate at risk, so no BASE wingsuit from aircraft in the US.

aircraft = skydiving = dealing with FAA

It's legal. So this pilot would take you up. No charge. Just defray expenses.

Hi :)

by "skydiving saved my butt when all else fails" I'm referring to the feeling you get sometimes in life when you don't know what to do. Instead of doing something really stupid, you go skydiving.
I thought I had a job after my studies, and the financial crisis hits so I don't get the job after all. (None of the other students did either.) So I worked at the DZ. And when you're stuck in some random deserted place, it's easy to make friends skydiving.

Personally I haven't had an instructor save my ass after being a student. The only time I had that feeling was when my rig was condemned, stuff like that can make you lose sleep - but there wasn't really anything I could do about it. I've seen students be "saved" by instructors before, but I don't think they knew enough to understand the severity of it. I've seen three students have cypres firings, one of them when I was DZO. They have no idea how bad it is, and don't understand why they can't continue jumping.
Kind of like this: http://wumo.no/2011/07/16/
(It's ok to have one mistake at your exam, so congrats on your license!)

I've seen packs that result in reserves because of wrong routing of the bridle. I've seen canopies spin and get line twists, but never had a cutaway myself yet. I've helped students out of trees with climbing gear, seen water landings, done first aid at a major swooping accident with a friend. Just being in the sport a few years gives you a lot of experience even if it's not your own experience.


I believe in helping out as ground crew parallell to doing skydives, so go for that. After you get your A-license, buy a skydive rig, a tracking suit and helmet/goggles suitable to base. Spend time thinking about and practice packing. Find friends that enjoy tracking and go chase clouds. Make every landing perfect. Don't do 12 jumps in a day, make 6-8 good ones instead. Jump with a camera when you're allowed, and keep a good log both on paper and with vids. Then get base-gear and go to bridge-day or whatever :)

This is a journey. It contains dead-ends that need exploring. You'll make friends and lose friends. You'll be happy and you'll be upset. And you probably will be broke several times. Don't be so focussed on your destination that you forget to enjoy the trip there.

...and I haven't even base jumped yet :P

Aka the SIM, is right here:
http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Can be read or downloaded for free
and if you take out the pictures it is
about the same length as this thread

you describe privileges earned by a Private Pilot accurately, but you are still wrong.

taking BASE gear from a plane violates Part 105 regulations. as a pilot, you should be aware.

if you take a structure course, most of your questions will get answered. if you persist in random lines of inquiry, no one knows what you will miss, like this tidbit of information.

if you build your knowledge on a lousy foundation, don't expect wonderful results.

BASE is the advanced stuff. you seem to want to earn a PhD yet avoid the Bachelor of Science coursework.

I'll check part 105 before I take anyone up. Thanks much for pointing that out to me. Then I'll decide whether it applies, has loopholes (like "non-commercial" vs "commercial", etc), and whether to obey or not. We all have our limits of accepting orders from our self-proclaimed slave-masters. I infer a great many base advocates understand what I mean. No wonder we love the boonies, where virtually nobody is anywhere to be seen or heard.

Which just triggered an amazing connection in my mind! I could show BASE and wingsuit fans some totally freaking mind-boggling places in Chile. I was there not long ago, but it was before I noticed wingsuit flying, so I didn't make the connection before now. Wow. Too cool. And no Uncle Scam.

Well, "seem to" is the relevant word, isn't it? In fact, I prefer to accumulate information both ways.

I'm not irritated at people like you, just tired of a lifetime of "we know better" attitudes. I understand your comments are likely if not certainly on target for the vast majority of mankind. I get that, so thank you for trying to give me your best advice. But I'm not about to change my entire modus-operandi of life.

I hate to get philosophical, but the best way to learn anything, to really learn it with the greatest and fullest grasp and understanding is "first hand observation" and "first hand reflection and thought".

But guess what? When we wander through life, even when we try to accumulate observations in a coherent simple-to-complex order, we get a huge quantity of useful observations and hints in random order. If we learn exclusively from course-work text-books, we certainly have to face a lot less personal intellectual struggle to correlate bits of information, because [presumably] somebody invested a lot of time and effort to convey the information in the easiest to consume order.

I get that. I get that. I get that. But that's not the way I've learned in my life, and that's not the way I prefer to learn [most of the time]. I don't mind mixing them, so "in theory" I don't accidentally miss any crucial elements, but I utterly and completely distrust "learning" entirely via language from books, media and human teachers. Almost everyone these days (and probably always) has personal, political, religious, philosophical and other agendas, and that often grossly taints the subject matter and misleads the learner in various ways.

I've seen endless evidence for this phenomenon. For example, when I watch science shows on TV or read articles (popular OR technical), I find a very strong, distinctive pattern. The presentations about topics I know little or nothing sound very plausible and interesting. The presentations about topics I am expert are almost always chock full of gross lies, spin and misrepresentation. I find myself yelling "liars" at the screen. Get the point? If we don't know jack about something, we're likely to be totally scammed if we "learn" from books, teachers, courses, articles, presentations, etc. If we really want to understand something, if it is crucial that we understand the reality of the matter, we are vastly better off to learn by first-hand observation and personal reflection and thought. Is that slower? Hell, yes! Is that more difficult? Hell, yes! Is that a royal pain in the ass? Hell, yes! But is that true? Hell, yes! Or so I firmly believe from endless personal observations.

What else does first-hand observation and thought do for us? Answer: It lets us gradually accumulate solid information that we are confident in for good reason - first-hand experience. Then, when we encounter prepared information via language and other media, we are more likely to notice, identify and characterize their lies, spin, exaggerations and misleading hype. And then we have some basis to evaluate the quality of the material. I'm sure you agree, not all "material" is equally helpful.

But perhaps the primary point (for me) is what happens when I struggle at length to understand and correlate first-hand information. What happens is, I make connections. And while most of those connections might eventually show up in linear course work, the totality of context and connections made this way is worth a lot to me.

I intend to take a structured course. Given that you know that now, do you really think accumulating additional bits and pieces in random order will harm me? Frankly, it seems the suggestions here are pretty wise on balance, because they also place heavy evidence on finding a great mentor, who presumably can then augment linear course work with the kind of random scattershot observations I enjoy accumulating.

Hey, I'm totally happy to admit that I'd love to go buy all the gear, con Matt into taking me to a great exit point, giving me tips, and then swan dive off. Except that's the fantasy version... nice to imagine, fun to visualize, but not consistent with the title of my post ("due diligence")... or my intentions.

All I ask is that you understand that not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same capabilities, not everyone has the same background, not everyone has the same prudence, not everyone has the same quality mentor, not everyone has to follow the same path. I know you worry some 14~18 year old will read something and go fling themselves off the volcano into the magma. To all you 14~18 year olds out there, listen those those wise folks who I am calling cynics, because they're actually realists! Me? I'm a realist too... just a different kind. A kind that is impossible at 14~18 years old.

PS: Out of curiosity, can you characterize just what constitutes "BASE gear"? Since the BASE I'm most familiar with from videos (mostly wingsuit flying from very high exit points in Switzerland and Norway) all reaches terminal velocities, I'm not clear why the gear is necessarily so different. Yeah, I know, that's a stupid question and I'll find out eventually. But if you don't answer me, I'll find out elsewhere, and long before "in due course".

PSS: It would be fun if everyone who replied identified themselves as primarily "skydiver" or "BASE jumper". I wonder how strongly that would sort the very different kinds of replies I'm reading.

Gold mine! Thanks!

Where is Jbag and Mr. Prick when they're needed? They always have the most informative and helpful comments.

actually, I bet most people here would agree with you.

thus, why persist in remaining behind a keyboard? go out and jump. go get a "first hand observation." stop relying on the perceptions of others.

if you want to embrace experiential learning, chatting on this forum won't help.

(a tandem being the quickest and safest way to initially get in the air. queue the potato crowd...)

The main question everyone has failed to ask you is, how much are you willing to pay to learn this stuff in 2 years? Anything can be had for the right price! Although there are no guarantees you will survive. Are you willing to sign an indemnity and hold harmless agreement with your mentor?

I dunno. Hopefully $25K to $50K is enough. I am one frugal son of a bitch and always have been. I've never had any debt and have about 200oz of Au squirreled away. When I do spend, I tend to buy the best equipment I can find regardless of price. If the total cost is more than $50K, I might reconsider. The local drop-zone charges <= $2K for their AFF equivalent, so I'm guessing roughly $25K including everything, including training, skydiving, BASE and wingsuit gear. But that's just a very rough guess, because there's lots of bits and pieces I have no idea about.

I'm pretty sure I can afford it, but I want to be as certain as is reasonably feasible that I'm going to finish before I begin. That's my frugal nature talking. Having said that, I suspect I'll begin skydive within a month. Nothing I've heard here yet has discouraged me.

Of course I'll sign those agreements. Doesn't everyone? One reason I'm happy to do so is my insistence upon making my own decisions and taking full responsibility for them. Unlike some other "crazy fools" who do dangerous things, I'm perfectly willing to "just say no" and back off if anything doesn't look right, seem right or feel right. Everything I do is my responsibility.

OTOH, if my mentor squeezes super-glue into my pilot chute while I'm up talking to the pilot, I might make an exception for something like that. Assuming I find some deep water to dive into and survive his "prank".

I think you are shooting a little low, especially since you like top of the line gear. Hell, your going to need to put at least $1000 into Go-Pro's and other video equipment! I personally charge $23,500 for training, which does not include travel expenses, so right there you are already close to your low end. Then you have at least $15,000 in gear alone, then 2 years skydiving you should be getting at least 1000 jumps by the end so at a cut rate of $20 per jump that's another $20,000. AFF costs $2000. Your instructors will most likely utilize the tunnel in vegas to help get you up to speed with flying your body, I'm guessing that is going to run you a few thousand more. Then of course you have travel expenses going to norway or europe multiple times to get proficient so tack on another $10000 on the low side. There's almost $60k.

As far as signing an agreement with your mentor... not too many, if any, actually do this. BASE schools, I'm sure have you sign something but a mentor is something different and usually you don't have any agreement which might be why mentors are difficult to come by... they don't want the liability of keeping people from bouncing. Even though you say you are responsible for your actions, which I agree everyone should be doing, grieving families usually look to place blame on someone or something. Why do you think a potential mentor would want to risk taking someone who may not be 100% on it and run the risk of lawsuits from family?
Usually the pranks in BASE don't involve super-glue... they involve tar instead.

on that note, has a base mentor ever been prosecuted for assisting a failed beginner base jump?
As far as I know, you're not allowed to take someones life even if they consent except in Switzerland.

Is assisting an under-prepared beginner something you'd like to explain to the police, families, fellow jumpers or non-jumping friends, even if all goes well? This isn't climbing. Your skill level and gear does not affect my safety, but I'd still feel bad if something happened to someone in my group. Let's not add a whole bunch of beginners-with-cash to the bfl, it's grim enough already.

Thanks for all the information and thoughts.

No, the Mesquite drop-zone is about 60 miles from LV, so no wind tunnels. They do tandem for the first 1 or 2 jumps, and claim that's the only difference from AFF training. Something about tandem grosses me out, but that's the breaks.

Is the tunnel really that good for learning to "fly our bodies"? Clearly we can't do practice that involves horizontal motion, cuz we'd fly out of the wind stream.

At $20 per jump, I tend to doubt time in the wind tunnel is cost effective in comparison. Not that I know, of course, just an uneducated guess.

What does someone get for $23,500? Is that complete one-on-one personal training through... which level? How does the cost of your training compare to typical training?

1000 jumps? That sounds like 2x to 5x more than others mention as a minimum before starting BASE. So if I'm doing very well, maybe that could be less? Or if I'm having problems, then I'd rather just pack my bags and forget about it than try to fly proxi will lame ass abilities. If I'm no good, I'm no good, and that's the end of the line. That might happen, though I hope not and suspect "problably not".

So I could cut off $10K if I scale back to 500 jumps, which seems like a fairly acceptable number in the eyes of many BASE jumpers.

Did you choose 1000 jumps just to price me out of the market?

When I gave a cost estimate, I was only talking about getting to the point of serious proxi flying for the first time. How much I'm willing to spend to continue this activity in the long term... who knows.

Please explain more about what a mentor is or does.

And just tar? No feathers?

I know of one case in which the (deceased) beginner's family filed civil suits against multiple (experienced) jumpers on the load the accident occurred on.

I can also think of one case in which a (commercial) instructor/mentor was prosecuted for illegal aerial delivery after a death, and in which he was given the maximum possible sentence largely because of the death (the other jumpers busted at the same time received far more lenient penalties).

Yes the wind tunnel is a great tool and with what you want to do, I would say that it is very important. Vegas has a tunnel... use it! Think about this... when skydiving you have 60seconds to get your shit straight. More than likely at first most of the jump you are going to be all over the sky then you have to deploy your chute and land it. Lot's of stress in a short time. With tunnel training you have more than 60 seconds at a time and no stress of a malfunctioning parachute. You also have references to indicate backsliding, floating, side sliding sinking, etc. Obviously you have not even looked into how a tunnel can help if you dont know that most all tunnels are enclosed and have wall to wall airflow and some tunnels are 16feet across so horizontal movement is easily practiced.

If you have unlimited resources then why would you not take advantage of them?
1000 skydives is low if you are serious about what you want to do quickly. Sure you can cut corners but then again what happens when you think you can clear a talus or outcropping but find out too late you didn't conserve enough altitude to get past it cause you only got proficient at flying at 50% of the capabilities of the suit?
When I gave my estimate I was also only thinking that would get you to the beginning stages of wingsuit BASE... long term your looking at most all of your money!
My training covers everything I feel is important from level 10 through level 42. These are levels and not jumps numbers. All levels have multiple requirements to pass. If you need more instruction, additional training is contracted on a per jump basis. There are cheaper mentors but you know what cheap gets you sometimes!

If your into feathers, that can be arranged as well, especially on your tandem jumps

I believe you can take someone else's life through PRIVATE contractual agreements. The issue is when the public and/or government gets involved. If you get paid in debt notes(money currently used in all countries) to take someone else's life then you fall under someone else's jurisdiction and they can prosecute for using public money to settle a private agreement. Remember, it's not our money... it's the private corporate bankers money that we get the 'privilege' of using!

Of course I could be wrong so I don;t think I'll be taking anyones life any time soon!

srsly only $23500 for levels 10 through 42? Sign me up! I be taking levels 1 through 9 at kjerag from 13th of august, so I should be ready by christmas. Gonna try out for the first level tomorrow with Mr. Goodtimes.

What part of tandem skydiving don't you like? Just get a female instructor and put the harness on backwards :)

I heard today that there're dropzones both in US of A and in Germany that allow the use of base rigs when you add a belly reserve, and that they don't require you to use an ADD or deploy above 2000'. Sounds fantastic! Also when it comes to Chile or Brazil, I'm not sure they have the same regulations about not dropping jumpers with base rigs. I.E. Christ statute in Rio de Janeiro.

There's just one thing I fail to understand so far. You're a pilot. Why do you wanna base jump? If I could afford an aircraft and pilot license I wouldn't be jumping. It's like swimming to an island when you could be riding a boat instead. Unfortunately, to keep my environmentalist image I can no longer jump from aircrafts, so I'm going eco-jumping from mountains from now on.

You're fucking dumb!

What the hell, maybe I'll go over and try their wind tunnel and see what it's like. I get the point that 60 minutes in the tunnel is as much time to practice body control as 60 freefalls.

I can see how tunnel walls could give someone a great visual reference for high precision control in an otherwise vertical fall. And yeah, I've seen a lot of videos of skydivers and wingsuiters flying into formations, holding hands and stuff like that. Clearly getting ready for that kind of activity wind tunnel practice could be helpful. I have to admit, if I find I can't control my body fairly well in the wind tunnel after just a few minutes, that will be a truly humbling experience. I'll be pissed... at me!

I don't have unlimited resources, as you demonstrated so aptly. I may have given a slightly wrong impression about "buying the best". To me, that doesn't mean buying the most expensive, and I never buy anything because the model or brand is currently popular. Generally I do end up buying equipment that falls somewhere in the most expensive 30%, but what I'm after is quality and convenience, not brand name, logos, fads... or the lazy notion that "most expensive is always best". Of course, I'm not stupid either, so if I've had a string of great experiences with some company's products, I'll make sure I evaluate their other products when I need them. I'm also a fan of KISS, which means I tend NOT to buy accessories and paraphanalia unless they don't complicate things, and really do add some important capability or safety factor.

Once I'm doing wingsuit BASE, I can decide whether it's worth spending myself ALL the way into the poor house.

I guess you're saying AFF is level 1 to 10. Where can I find out what is level 10 to 42? And what does the $24K include? The flights up to altitude? Your flights up to altitude? Rental equipment? Does this include any BASE at all? Wingsuit? What's the scope? Do you expect tips too? You can just provide links to this information if it already exists on line.

So you're characterizing yourself as a mentor here? Are you sorta doubling as "instructor" too, or after AFF we're pretty much on our own as far as officialdom is concerned, and the term "instructor" doesn't exactly apply any more?

To answer a question someone else posted, I don't have any family, except an 18-year girl friend who is most certainly not inclinded to law suits, and who respects and honors my wishes. So in the absense of super-glue, tar, feathers and gun-shot wounds, your only loss will be the remainder of my training fees plus any emotional trauma my physical trauma might cause. But maybe that's not a problem, because clearly I'm easy to hate.

I am, however, going to add a "no tar" cause to the my waiver.

Consider that clearly and definitively established, and stipulated as fact.

Very astute! That's why I save elements like Au, Ag, Pt, Pd, Rh, etc, not fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy, fractional reserve debt-ridden toilet paper. I've also found that lately almost everyone is willing to accept gold and silver coins and wafers/bars... for almost anything.

If I find an instructor/mentor who is as astute as you are, they'll be plenty happy to trade their wisdom for slabs of metal slid under the table (no receipts).

PS: The notion that honestly providing assistance to someone who wants it is somehow equivalent to ANY kind of civil or criminal act is... beyond revolting! Those are fighting words! Freaking hell! Every student driver instructor would be hung. Every parent showing their kids how to mow the lawn would be hung. People can drown when they drink a glass of water! Freaking bunch of predator authoritarians who think that way... it is THEY who need to be hung.

Unfortunately, just the attempt to get a female instructor to put the harness on backwards is likely to end my skydiving "career".

Hey, now that you mention it, that's an interesting idea! Once I get "officially banned" from skydiving, then I have a perfect excuse to skip all that prudent training, and move straight away to suicidal wingsuit BASE jumping. Hmmmm. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

Sadly, I think some people here don't know when I'm [obviously] joking.

Since you know what is level 42, point me to where levels 10 to 42 are described.

I guess level 43 is a bit too much to ask for. Level 43 is "the entire meaning of existence, life and everything" as I recall. Fortunately, I already nailed level 43, so now all I need to complete are levels 1 to 42, and 44 to infinity. One down, infinity to go.

What is an ADD? Is that automatic deployment of chute at some preset altitude?

I dug Chile. Obviously I didn't spend my time pawing through their law libraries, but my experience there implied they are much more libertarian than the USSA. Probably they're just 30 to 50 years behind in the enslavement process, and the authoritarian predators will ruin them soon enough.

I'm not surprised there are various kinds of "loopholes" like those you mention. I'm sure we can wingsuit and BASE-like jump from airplanes with BASE gear if we get a bit creative and/or "evasive" (out-of-sight, out-of-mind). Maybe what we need is a group of collaborators that includes another private pilot (2+ total). That way we can do anything we want as long as we stay far, far away from predator-thugs and lovers of officialdom and enslavement. Having said that, I am always willing to go to extremes to find ways to "technically" stay within the law, because I really, really, really don't want to have anything to do with those freaks. At this point (planning to leave the USSA permanently in less than a year), the "vanish" option also looks easier than ever. Key point: never ID oneself!

Flying an airplane is "indirect", kind of like "paragliding" and "speed flying" (not sure these are the correct terms) where you're controlling something else that lets you fly. What I loved about high diving was... it feels like "just me and reality", and it is just ME, gravity and water involved, and I'm the only one of those three taking purposeful actions.

My impression from watching videos is, wingsuit flying retains those aspects I most love. When wingsuit flying, YOU are flying [by moving your body]. Unlike ALL those other alternatives, you are not flying something else [that carries you along for the ride], you are flying (as close as we can come to that, anyway).

As practical modes of transportation, wingsuit flying and high diving absolutely, positively SUCK.

Your example about "swimming to an island" is interesting too. I love to swim. I don't feel too bad about the constraint of donning fins, goggles and snorkel gear, because I can cover a LOT more territory each time I dive, I can easily check out the bottom at 50' depth and beyond instead of just 20' or maybe 30', and I can literally stay out in the ocean from dawn to dark without a break (assuming I bring a little fresh water along to drink), whereas just regular swimming for more than 2~3 hours becomes terminally boring. Living on Maui for 18 years pretty much spoiled me, I'm afraid.

If your goal is to "get to the other island", then obviously swimming, snorkeling, scuba diving and even jet skis are massively to markedly inferior to a nice fast vessel. If your goal is to "have a good time" exploring the fish, the coral, the endless wonders on the ocean floor, and the simple pleasure of moving around in 3 dimensions under your own direct control... then a boat sounds pretty lame.

Which raises the question... you're not thinking of wingsuit flying and BASE jumping as a means of transporation, are you?

Holy fuck. 100 posts, of which 43 are short novels where you spout drivel about how you are:

1) Smarter and better than everyone else, and somehow different than all the other fuckers out there
2) Cheap as hell, yet filthy rich
3) Completely anti-authority and somehow above the law
4) The most awesome being to grace this planet
And somehow you want people to help you.

Have you ever heard the saying that “You learn much more with your mouth closed, than with it open”? It applies here.

The moderators are patient enough to put up with your shit for reasons I don’t understand, instead of locking the thread and telling you to go away. Either you are one of the most elaborate trolls I have ever seen, or such an utter narcissist that I doubt you will find anyone willing to bother dealing with you long enough to try to teach you anything.

As both a skydiver and BASE jumper, I wouldn’t come near you simply because of your attitude and bullshit, and I doubt many others will.

Since you obviously know more than anyone else and don’t need to learn things by the normal channels, you will find links in the Gear section to various BASE gear manufacturers. All of the links there are to reputable gear manufacturers. Lie to them about your experience and give them your credit card number. A couple months later you will have gear in your hot little hands. Go use it for whatever in the fuck you want to use it, and come back and tell us how wrong we were in telling you to spend time skydiving to learn the basics.

Make sure you get video too, or we won’t believe you.

You're about as off-base as you could possibly be.

1: I'm not smarter than everyone else, just some. And smarts is selective, so maybe I'm smarter in some areas and ways, and dumber in others.

2: I'm far from filthy rich. I'm not even rich. People own homes, fancy cars, TVs, stereos, cell phones, comprehensive insurance, all sorts of things. I own none of those, have only necessities (except equipment and supplies to do my work). And consider this incredibly difficult to comprehend fact. He who does not spend, does tend to accumulate more savings. That's not magic, and certainly not a contradiction. And also, he who squirrels away Au at $250/oz appears to have more than he actually does 10 years later (he still has the same number of ounces). If you're pissed you don't have more savings, spend less. Also, if you're already a base jumper, seems likely I'll be broke by the time I climb up to where you are now (according to some of the replies herein).

3: Above? What does that mean? I was born, you were born, they were born. How exactly does someone who appears on this earth the same was as you or me... become our masters? Answer: They can't, out of mere symmetry and consistency. They're predators, pure and simple, and their "law" is just noises made by nasty predators. Period. However, I take ethics very seriously.

4: Wrong again. Never said that. Actually, I said the opposite quite a few times. And in the areas we should be discussing here (BASE/wingsuit flying), I'm below the lowest man on the totem pole. So where you get this idea is beyond me.

You're quite right about learning more by doing, not talking. I said as much in the pages you hate. I just received my "great book of base" today from Matt, so that'll keep my mouth shut for a while soon as I finish with this useless message.

I'm not sure what a narcissist is in your mind, but anyone who does skydiving, base, wingsuit flying is by definition a narcissist, at least to a significant degree. Did that ever occur to you?

Good. Please don't come near me.

I'll learn things the way I want to learn them. And I happily leave you, and everyone else, free to learn in whatever way they wish.

Now your advice is for me to go out and be maximally irresponsible and get myself killed. At least you can be proud of your advice and contribution to the conversation and activity.

You won't believe me even when I do return with video. I know how this works. Besides, unlike some people, I'm not in this to impress anyone. I'm interested in this to enjoy, like I enjoyed snorkeling, skiiing and other activities before. I guess that does make me narcissistic by some definitions.

wingsuit proxi is so gay

i think you pinned the tail on the donkey here. nobody in their right fucking mind that is proficient is gonna help somebody like him out, and if he chooses to go about this alone, he will learn some harsh lessons real quick.
all i sense is ZERO humility, and nothing but defending his opinions/views through long psychobabble posts............

sadly, too many newbies/beginners/wannabees want the world to change to fit their preconceptions and dispositions. they fail to understand that changing THEIR thinking tends to be more realistic than changing everyone else's thinking!

It appears you are trying to figure out a fast-track path into proximity flying. There is not one and there should not be one.

If you started working on it today, it would probably take you a minimum of five to ten years before you could do it with any reasonable expectation of walking away safely.

Instead of learning everything you can about BASE, you would be far better off in the long run by spending your time learning everything you can about skydiving.

My suggestion is to:

1. Learn basic skydiving and get competent.


2. Learn wingsuiting and get competent.


3. Learn basic BASE jumping and get competent.


4. If you still want to try proximity flying at that point, get a competent person to teach you.

Calling people that are qualified to teach you narcissists and telling them how wrong they are will not help your cause.

Good luck, though.

Walt

No, I'm not looking for a fast-track to physical proximity flying. I am, however, looking for an intellectual fast-track, which just means I want to know as much about the entire process from zero to my first proxi before I start.

A minimum of 5 to 10 years? That's interesting, because some of the top guys are in their mid 20s, which means they started at what? Age 15?

Your steps #1 ~ #4 are also my impression of what lies ahead.

You misread the messages. It was them calling me a narcissist, which doesn't bother me. Given everything they've been telling me, it is obvious that anyone going through the massive money-time-risk sink that we're talking about could certainly be characterized as a narcissist by reasonble people. Gads, people who are so willing to risk their life are so afraid of a few words. Amazing! And how am I supposed to know who is and isn't qualified to teach me?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the entire process before I begin a process that is being described as 10 years and a minimum of $60,000. That's a pretty large endeavor, don't you think? Before starting such a large endeavor, trying to assess what is involved makes sense to me.

it is a big deal if you only care about reaching your destination. that requires the arrogance to believe you can formulate a plan that can account for so many unknowns. (I can't, and don't know anyone who can.) it strikes me as an incredibly insecure way to live.

it is not a big deal if you are open to discovering all the amazing details along the path. this requires flexibility and being opportunistic.

ultimately, we all end up at the same place - death. I prefer embracing all the wonders along the way. if something can be measured and quantified, it has no mystery and no real value (to me). I'm betting you don't share that thinking.

Just out of curiosity and to keep up the fruitful conversation, can you name some of these top guys in their mid 20s you are referring to here? Not saying that there would not be competent ws pilots around in that age, I´m just interested to hear whom you consider as "top guys". :)

Hmm, all the top guys I know off are mid 30s+
and have been skydiving/BASE for more than 10 years, some 20 years+
Who is it in mid 20s that you know of that's a top guy?

Johnny Strange is a top guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqEOWtJNb3o).

edited to add:
To keep the discussion productive I should point out that the above is intended as a joke. Johnny Strange is a very ballsy and capable young man who failed to do any planning at all on a wingsuit BASE jump and had what could politely be called a misadventure because of it.

he goobstrap why dont you go to a dropzone and get "jazzed" by some skydiving..... seems like the internet has you by the balls. wake up cupcake this aint f@#$ing television its the real deal. do yourself and everyone here a favor and go educate yourself, not on a computer but in real life. seeing how proud you are of your accomplishments you should have no problem adding proximity base wingsuit to the list, hearing how great you are and all.

Bootstrap, you seemed to have developed a contentious relationship with some of the people here. That's not good.

Let's set the "who is right and who is wrong" thing aside for now. You have made a bad first impression and before it goes further downhill, I'm going to suggest you try to get the discussion back on track first.

The people here can be an awesome resource but you need to show them some respect and develop a positive relationship with them first. It's not difficult but it does take some humility. Not ass kissing. Humility. Like not being dismissive of others' ideas even if they seem to be dismissive of yours.

Some of the people here are where you want to be and you could benefit greatly from their help. Being argumentative will get in your way, though.

Maybe make a few skydives first and then start asking some questions about the differences between what you experienced when skydiving and what you can expect to experience with BASE.

Just a suggestion.

Walt

P.S. How about posting your real first name. "Bootstrap" sounds kind of silly.

Well, I was thinking of Jokke Sommer specifically, who was born 1986/06/06. That makes him barely 25 now, right? And I'd say he has qualified as a "top guy" for what? 2 or 3 years?

I don't really know how old the other "top guys" are and am not a good judge of age from pix. In my limited knowledge, which is likely skewed towards those who post videos versus private/loner types, would include Jokke Sommer, Matt Gerdes, Tom Erik Heimen, hmmm... brain freeze... forgetting a couple more I know but can't recall. Maybe they're lots older. I dunno.

Do you consider Jokke a "top guy"? How about those other guys?

I'm not raising these questions to be difficult, just trying to see both ends of the spectrum of possibilities.

Jokke Sommer? If he is an amateur still, who is a "top guy" in your opinion?

Not being wiseass here, but I've got to ask. Do you really view BASE jumpers in a sort of hierarchy, sort of like the top competitors at world-level competitions and stuff?

The reason I am asking is that when I was learning to BASE jump, there were definitely guys who were well-known and respected in the BASE community but it was not anything like them having some sort of public image in the media or anything like that. There really wasn't any kind of celebrity thing going on at all. It was entirely possible to meet them, get to know them and form friendships, learn from them, and jump with them.

How do you view the people you consider to be the "top guys" in the sport?

Walt

Are BASE jumpers who are big on youtube and in the media considered to be some sort of "stars"?

I kind of expected Jokke´s name would come up. Jokke is a "top guy" for sure and he can also fly pretty well. :) I do not know Gerdes or Tom Erik personally so I do not know about their age or time in the sport but all the other "top guys" I regularly see or jump with have been around significantly longer than Jokke (again not saying there would not be other good flyers around his age, I´m just referring to people I know). Think Robi or Jno for example, the guys have been flying since the beginning of ws base, building their own wingsuits and advancing steadily their skills and the equipment we use.

In any sport there always are people who break into "top level" of sport in remarkable short period of time. Sidney Crosby finished sixth in scoring in his first NHL -season and in his second season he captured Art Ross as the top scorer in the league to become the youngest ever winner of the trophy. Then again Crosby is considered as an exceptional talent (even compared to the Great One him self) and his way to the top of the game must be considered as a very rare exception.

In the same comparison in our sport, for majority of people it takes a longer route to the "top of our sport" and therefore the above mentioned 5 to 10 years is not very far off to be honest and also your general "top of the line" flyer tends to be rather in his mid 30´s or close to 40s. Many flyers (like me) most likely never make it to the "top league" but rather play in the minors all their careers. And to be honest I couldn´t care less, I know my limitations and I´m enjoying flying on my own level. It took me 7 years and around 1000 jumps in BASE with 1400 skydives (around 10 years) as a background to be comfortable in flying the big suits off the cliff. And still I consider my self as total beginner in this game. But who cares, it has been ridiculous amount of fun during those 10 years, countless amounts of good times and great memories. :)

p.s Jokke : if you read this, don´t start bragging around that you are being compared to Crosby in the internet. :D

No, I don't view BASE as a hierarchy. Personally, I don't think that kind of structure can capture what matters, because the skills involved seem a bit too diverse to categorize in such a manner. And as you can certainly tell, my personal interests and inclinations are vastly tilted/biased towards wingsuit proxi versus "regular BASE", so any view I have is pretty much worthless anyway. Since I've been watching wingsuit proxi flying, I wouldn't even have noticed top notch talent in "regular BASE".

How do I view the top guys in the sport? Like people with great skills. I'm not into fame for myself, and I have no interest in famous people unless they're famous for being great at something I care about. Mere fame is irrelevant to me. Great skills or knowledge are what I value and respect.

More-or-less by coincidence I have a bit of a pre-friendship (don't want to be presumptuous) going with Matt Gerdes, who I was surprised to learn is the author of the "great book of BASE" that I just bought and started reading last night. So far, it is a very interesting and helpful book, and I appreciate the way he approaches the topic so far.

I have a sort of remote but real kinship with people I've met who are experts in areas I too have become expert over the years, and I believe many of them feel the same. IF I ever achieve a moderate level of ability in proxi, it will be nice if the same kind of kinship happens again. That's not my purpose for being interested, but will be welcome.

Some people here correctly characterized me as skeptical and even cynical. But the flip side is, I have enormous respect and admiration for people who achieve great things, whether it be artistic, intellectual or physical/athletic.

PS: To all of you. I'll take your word that the large majority of skilled BASE jumpers are in their 30s and 40s. If I ever do become modestly skilled, I'll probably be [one of] the oldest white-haired fogies diving off cliffs. My hair isn't white yet, but maybe this whole process will make it happen... or slow it down. This fact alone explains why 20 or 30 years to become competent is too long for this kid. I'm confident I'll never surpass "merely competent" in wingsuit flying or proxi, but that's okay.

How old are you?

hey bootstrap


Its bad weather and I read this thread:)

I have no experience in wingsuit base..but I write down my opinion...

I think that what you need to do is what many people had told to you ,go and start your aff...

What is important for you to know that after your aff ,make base oriented skydiving,of witch you can
find great info on the articles section of this page..

It s a long journey,and you will find out on the road if wingsuit base is for you or not...

You can t make a heart surgery if you didn t even study basic biology !


laszlo

I suggest you keep the nomme de plume.
You do not want this thread and your real
life name to ever be connected.

If you do ever get yourself to a dropzone
and actually do a real skydive then make
a new profile and walk away from this one.

Many of us who are bright can become way
too wrapped up in our thoughts, ideas, etc.

I promise you, mentally thinking something
is very different than actually KNOWING the
exact same thing.

For example: my favorite tandem passenger
EVER was a female cancer survivor who I got
the honor of taking for a jump right after my
own grandmother died of cancer.

Two weeks after her jump their son was home
on leave from war. He was young, fit, tough,
and had seen live action in combat. On the
ground and in the plane he was calm & chill
but on exit shit got real and he freaked and
then puked, we were both covered.

I find it hilarious how often people will tell
me how they are going to react to jumping.
Those are thoughts and often illconceived.

I do not know what it is like to be shot and
have never tried to tell my friends who have
how it is or feels, etc.



Regarding time frame, given your age and
probable health, I would highly doubt you
will proceed faster than their estimates.

Think about going to the range, be it to hit
golf balls or shoot a gun, you can perform
the action hundreds of times in one hour.

SKY jumping and BASE jumping, due to the
climb out/up plus packing is more like ONE
performance per hour.

The ability to build muscle memory hence
is much, much slower, than in other sports
and repetition is where we really learn...

My first night at a friends Kung Fu school
(back in '99) I did 5100 punches, 26 sets
of 100 in a deep stance, 25 sets of 100
in a high stance. By the end of one year
I could finally deliver a respectable punch.

Side-Note: paying to fly in a wind tunnel
is one cheat, because just 15 minutes of
guided practice can be worth 20-30 jumps.

I can't tell if you're one of the greatest comedians of all time or if you're taking my post seriously. You'll find the only thing you have in common with a large part of these jumpers is the desire to jump off a cliff. This is unfortunately the way I feel about you also.

You had better prepare to stand up for your values when hanging around these guys. The flight is the easy part.

Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor. Either way you'll be very disappointed unless you enjoy the journey.

I would like to make a public apology if I ever sounded like that guy on my earlier posts...reading this made me feel stupid.

I just finished reading Matt Gerdes book and it really made me change the way I see this whole thing plus answered tons of questions I had...Even if I now have enough jumps to attend a FJC, I still want to work on a few things before doing it...

maybe boothstrap should give it a read...

It may surprise you, but I agree with you. I'm gradually learning there are good reasons for many if not most of the assertions in this thread, and so I plan to follow most of the advice they've been giving.

I've got to finish a contract I'm currently working on before I dive into the AFF, so I probably won't start AFF for about a month. But AFF clearly seems the right thing to do. And I'll finish my first pass through "the great book of BASE" in 2 or 3 days. That book is quite helpful too, though I still don't know what too many components of the equipment are yet.

I also plan to audit a 4-day FJC on BASE. I know everyone has been saying "forget about BASE and wingsuit until you've got 200 or 500 or 1000 or 2500 freefall jumps under your belt", but on this issue I plan to violate their advice. No to offend, it's just my nature to want to have a grasp of the totality before and during the process of going through the process step by step from start to finish. Who knows, maybe those 4 days will convince me that wingsuits and jumping off cliffs [when there's no deep water below] isn't for me. I like to have my nose in the reality of things and make my mind up from real, first-hand experience and thought. So while I won't be jumping (only an audit), I'll at least get taste the flavor it a bit, and learn something.

After I do that audit and finish AFF, I'll probably try to find some BASE jumpers somewhat near here (near where Utah, Arizona, Nevada converge) and offer to be driver, ground crew, whatever they want. Yeah, again I'll be violating the advice to "do everything in a linear fashion from start to finish and ignore BASE and wingsuit flying". But I won't be jumping, just helping... and learning.

Clearly the way I express myself pisses people off. I guess maybe that's partly because they think I'm not gonna listen to what they say. As it turns out, that's not true. Looks like I'll probably follow most of the advice I've been given. But when people tell me what to do, they need to back it up to convince me to consider it, much less accept it. It is my nature to be completely and annoyingly unsatisfied by, and unaccepting of, superficial advice or information. When I ask people to justify and back up their advice and assertions with [annoyingly detailed] substance, some of them dislike that a lot!

Those people are diametric opposites of me. When I'm helping someone in a field I know well, I love to be questioned and challenged. That's the most fun of that whole process for me. Fortunately, I found a significant minority of the people here also respond positively to my "demanding, challenging ways". I appreciate and salute them.

I promise never to attempt heart surgery. I'm not yet willing to promise never to fly wingsuits or proxi. And probably I'll always be annoying, though not on purpose.

Hey, just had to pop back to point out a logical fallacy.


I feel very certain that if at least I jumped off a bridge or a cliff with a wingsuit on before having practiced almost anything of what these guys are suggesting, it would very much feel like it's not for me.

I'd die or seriously shit my suit, no joke on that one, and if I'd finally put in all the work after having miraculously survived that I think I'd be to afraid to do it again..

Maybe that's just me though. I did never highdive, that does seem even more scary..

But I kind of like you, so I don't want you to hurt yourself :)

I think that most of the reaction you have had here has not been about your style being annoying. It has been the result of your posts giving the impression that you are getting way ahead of yourself.

As you progress, you will find:
1. Skydiving is not nearly as dangerous as most people think it is.

2. BASE jumping is even more dangerous than most people think it is, and that's saying something.

BASE is something that, for most people, needs to be grown into *slowly* and with the guidance of those who have gone before. You have not given the impression that you are willing to take your time and learn to do it right.

I'm not trying to be dramatic by saying this but the simple fact is that the lessons of BASE have been written in blood and the people left behind feel deeply obligated to pass on those lessons.

Like any apprenticeship, though, you need to convince the mentors that they are not wasting their time with you. For someone in your position, that is a very tall order because even though you have never made a skydive, you are asking questions about the path to practicing a facet of BASE that perhaps pushes the envelope more than any other.

Since you have never experienced a freefall parachute jump, it is a tough sell to convince a BASE jumper that you truly have the commitment to follow through on learning proximity flying. It is an even tougher sell to convince a BASE jumper that you have any real basis for making that kind of commitment other than liking what you have seen on youtube videos.

Learning to skydive will go a very long way toward giving you some credibility with the BASE community. Learning to wingsuit out of aircraft will gain you further credibility. After that, learning basic BASE skills and demonstrating them on BASE jumps will get you where you need to be to make that commitment.

Until you have reached that point, I don't think it's fair to say that the majority of BASE jumpers here don't want their statements to be challenged because you haven't yet earned the right to challenge them.

I'm not trying to be harsh here. I have sensed an attitude change on your part over the course of your posts and I wish you well. This has become an interesting thread and I hope you will report back here as you progress.

Walt

Yeah, I probably did cause concern that I would get way ahead of myself. That's because they don't know me, because they can't know me at this point. I sense that my eagerness and my insistence to learn something about the total process from zero to wingsuit proxi created that worry. And indeed, if I wasn't a massive chicken-shit by nature, or if I was a typical 18 years old, or not inclinded to be precise and methodical, their worries would indeed be justified. The more I learn about BASE, the stronger this impression.

What people just aren't understanding is this. I still feel no danger consuming information about BASE and wingsuit flying while I practice skydiving... as long as I never jump, which I have no intention to do until I'm ready. I can almost guarantee you guys that reading "the great book of BASE" will cause me no harm. I can almost guarantee you guys that to audit a FJC up at the bridge will cause me no harm. I can almost guarantee you guys that doing driving and ground crew work for BASE jumpers will cause me no harm. As long as I don't jump, I still don't see how BASE will harm me. If I'm wrong about that, I still don't get it.

I have been getting the same impression as you about skydiving versus BASE, except I still see plenty of danger potential in skydiving. While skydiving looks like a lot of fun and worth doing for the fun of it, I suspect I'll be one of those freaks who incessantly but gradually and methodically tries to learn and practice quick, emergency turns and other skills that might eventually become useful in BASE. Hopefully that wild behavior under chute doesn't convince people on the ground that I'm a complete spaz, and inherently incapable of skydiving! Hahaha.

I still have much I want to learn even before my first skydive. Yeah, I know, "they'll tell me everything I need to know". Yes, they probably will. But they won't tell me everything I want to know. Like for example, I've had my head kicked several times for even wondering why I can learn skydiving in the same gear as I'll eventually be doing BASE. Okay, they want a reserve, but somebody said there are "belly reserves" or something like that. I'm perfectly willing to learn and understand why it is utterly and completely insane to practice from the start with the same gear I need to be intimately familiar with for BASE. I'm perfectly willing to learn and understand why forming the "muscle memory" that will be utterly crucial to my survival in BASE can't start sooner. So probably I'll have to be annoying just a little bit longer to get answers satisfactory for this annoying brat.

I'm quite aware BASE is dangerous. In fact, the more I read and learn about what BASE jumpers do, the stronger my original impression becomes. I refer to my original desire to never jump from problematic exit points. Never. I can't even count the number of un-freaking-believably fantastic high diving exit points I passed on for exactly this reason, even though probably I would have been just fine diving from every single one of them. The more I read, the more I get the impression a great many BASE jumpers have a strong desire to jump from every last exit point they can find. I imagine me being opposite. I want to enjoy the activity, not impress someone, scare myself witless or worse.

This raises another question that I have yet to learn or understand. The "great book of BASE" says that by far the most injuries and deaths are caused by striking the object we're jumping from due to off heading and tangled lines. That was my impression too, even before I read the book. And that's why I said that seems far less likely with a wingsuit that gets us vastly further from the object when we deploy the chute. But people here said BS to that, for reasons I still cannot fathom (since they didn't bother to explain why that's so). For the life of me, I still can't understand why wingsuit flying from BASE isn't safer than regular BASE. I'm not talking about proxi... the potential dangers of proxi are obvious. I'm talking about flying 1km ~ 2km from the object before we deploy. How can that be more dangerous than regular BASE... unless... we're jumping from objects that [almost] require a wingsuit to clear ledges and such. Those are exit points that I probably will never frequent, do to my chicken-shit nature and desire to keep safety margins large if not huge. Why risk my ass when there are plenty of safe/conservative exit points that will be fun as hell? Am I the only one who thinks this way?

So yeah, I still have lots of curiosity and lots and lots and lots that I want to learn and understand... before I even think about thinking about jumping.

You talk about credibility. Of course I have no credibility here. How could I? I'm not sure why I have to convince a BASE jumper that I'll "go all the way". Hell, I don't know that for sure myself, and I'm not about to lie about it to mislead someone about that either. Perhaps I make the false assumption that some people are like me - happy to convey information to others considering getting into something I know well. I'm happy to help - as long as they are honest about their current desires and intentions. Anyone not willing to waste their time humoring me with the benefit of their knowledge and experience, I assume just won't respond to the thread. How difficult is that, to not type?

I don't know how to answer your comment about "challenging" advice. I "challenge" everything and everyone, myself more than anyone! I guess I enjoy "challenge" of this kind, and deep down just don't understand why people dislike that. This is not a challenge to a duel where somebody gets hurt or killed, afterall. So yeah, obviously I just don't get why so many people respond that way. Just consider me a clueless doofus for this.

Of course my attitude has changed. I'm learning. Which was my goal, after all. Actually, maybe it isn't my attitude changing, maybe it is just the consequence of gaining some context and understanding to base my responses from, which was my goal, after all. Whichever, whatever. But also, I didn't notice the "private messages" part of this forum until 2 or 3 days ago. As it turns out, most people who are happy to be helpful, and happy (or at least not annoyed) to be challenged, decided to reply via private messages. I understand why they may have made that choice at this point.

If I ever get skilled at this, I hope I can look back at this thread and smile, shake my head, cringe, and remember what it was like to be totally clueless at the start of a long journey.

how can you appreciate the challenges of a wingsuit when you've never put yourself into a flying straightjacket?

focusing on the big picture will distract you from focusing on the necessary details of the next step.

many people begin skydiving with grand illusions then they:
- freak out before their first jump
- puke on themselves on their first jump
- see a serious injury
- get injured with less than 100 jumps
- don't enjoy it
- etc.

the reasons to quit seem endless, and the retention rate remains pathetic. will you be one that sticks around? no one, not even you, can know.

thus you:
- challenge people with endless questions.
- demand their kindness and good will.
- offer up virtually nothing in return.
- can't even describe taking your first step.
- expect everyone to respond to you, in the fashion that works for you.
- offer up no guarantees that you will ever be able to use ANY advice offered.
- wonder why people fail to be as helpful as you'd like.
- risk alienating many.

while I wish you the best, your behavior strikes me as incredibly rude and self-absorbed. at least in person, you could be buying the beer. (a very time-honored way to express appreciation.)

when you choose an action, you effectively choose the resulting consequences. you might be choosing well, but the evidence I see does not back that up.

I challenge you to figure out a way to at least seem grateful for the assistance that you demand.

hopefully, this is just a phase... skydiving and then BASE have a way of changing perspectives.


edited to add:
motivate people to help you.
make it easy for people to help you.
make people feel good when they help you.

otherwise, the help might stop.

I'm not trying to talk down to you here, so bear with me. The issue is that the journey from zero to proximity flyer is a very long one that has a lot of steps--most of which literally involve risking serious injury and/or death. Focusing on each step is important because each step has the potential to kill or maim you. Nothing wrong with keeping your eye on the end game, but you need to be focused on each step while you are learning it and if, for example, you are trying to interpret what your skydiving instructor is teaching you about gear in a different context (like BASE), then you are *not* fully focusing on what you *should* be learning.

Again, studying BASE while learning to skydive is like studying tightrope walking when you are just learning to walk. Only, having your head somewhere else when you are learning to walk may make you trip and fall. Having your head somewhere else when you are learning to skydive can kill you and someone else.

This is a perfect example of how getting ahead of yourself can kill or maim you. By far and away, most skydiving fatalities are under parachutes that are working just fine. Those "quick, emergency turns" kill people. You haven't even made a skydive and you're already "inventing" ways to kill yourself. The problem is twofold. One is that those methods have already been invented. You need to learn how to *avoid* them. Second, those clever little maneuvers you plan on doing can kill others.

Still think of yourself as something other than an egotistical jerk who doesn't listen to others? You may be the only one who feels that way at this point.

No need to worry about that. We won't worry about you being a spaz. We won't worry all that much about you killing yourself (at least I won't). We'll worry about you colliding with someone else and killing an innocent person while you are killing yourself. Think I'm kidding? I've done CPR on an innocent man who was killed by someone who collided with him. They both died. The guy who caused the accident had over 7,000 skydives. The innocent guy had over 6,000. Do you think we're going to put up with a new guy trying to kill us because he has some stupid-assed idea that doing radical maneuvers under canopy will make him a better BASE jumper? Really? Here's a bit of reality for you. The skydiving community is a shitload bigger than the BASE community but it is still small enough that when someone shows themselves to be a dumbass, word gets around very quickly and you will run out of places to jump and people to jump with in a hurry. Multiply x 1000 for BASE.

You are doing a great job of reinforcing the impression you have already made on others. Focus on learning to skydive first or you could kill yourself and/or someone who does not deserve to die at the hands of some egotistical moron.

If you put as much thought into what kind of skydiver you are going to be instead of figuring out what kind of BASE jumper you are going to be, we would all be safer.

Look at your precious youtube videos of wingsuiting. Notice the position of the arms. Now imagine someone whose arms are restricted by the wingsuit trying to deal with a wildly-spinning malfunctioned parachute after a low opening. They have to get their arms free of the wings before they can grab the controls.

And none of it will keep you or the rest of us safe while you should be learning to skydive.

Because we've seen too many people hurt or killed by "reinventing" some aspect of the sport. BASE is not some academic intellectual exercise. It's as real as it gets. Same goes for skydiving. Listen and learn.


We're not worried about you getting "skilled at this". We're concerned about you getting killed at this and possibly killing someone else because you have your head somewhere other than the important tasks at hand.

You certainly did not help your case with your most recent post but I hope you take my comments to heart. Not trying to be harsh here, but you need a reality check in a big way.

I'm also starting to think the poster who said you need to ditch your profile and start over and not leave any clues that would enable anyone to figure out who you are at the drop zone was right.

Still, I wish you the best of luck. And if your luck goes bad, I hope you only hurt yourself.

edited to add:
Sorry if these seems like I'm beating the point to death, but have you hear the expression, "Don't be that guy"?

Enough said.

Walt

I can't hope to fully appreciate the challenges of a wingsuit until I get into one [and dive]. That doesn't mean I can't slightly appreciate the challenges before then. That's all I seek.


Perhaps so. But in other endeavors this desire I have to research and "over-analyze" the full scope of something has never hurt (as far as I can tell), and often it has helped. Maybe this is the exception. Maybe not. In my position of starting at zero, I have no way to be certain. so I trust the life lessons I have learned. No offense intended to those who disagree with my perspective, or for whom their advice might in fact be better.


I am quite aware of that. I have tried activities before, then stopped and said, "this isn't for me". That could happen again. I don't doubt you at all.



You are mistaken about some of the above. I don't demand kindness and I don't demand good will. But I'm happy to accept the kindness and good will I get from those who choose to offer it, and I appreciate it. I hope they can tell. A couple people here have already gone far beyond any possible call of duty or simple civility. Those who have no wish to waste their time with me are welcome to not waste their time with me.

I do not expect or demand anything from anyone, except to be left alone if I so desire.

I don't have a lot to offer up in return yet. I have offered to become a driver and ground crew, but that only helps one or a few individuals, not everyone in this forum.

THIS is my first step... to learn as much as I can in the next month before I have time to start my AFF.

I don't expect anyone to respond to my questions who doesn't fully and freely find it worthwhile to them. If nobody fits the bill, that's my problem. This is a forum. Everyone who views this thread sees the same thing. I have no way to selectively question only those people who are happy to field my brand of lame-brain questions. I assumed nobody else would bother, but obviously I was very wrong about that guess. I don't understand why anyone would bother if it annoys them. I certainly don't believe anyone on earth has any obligation to even think about answering my questions.

I can guarantee I will consider what appears to be honestly given advice. However, since that advice might convince me to NOT continue on this path, of course I can't give any guarantee that I will follow through to the end. How could I? I don't, I won't, and any such guarantees would be disingenuous.

Yes, I wonder why people who hate my style bother with this thread. Perhaps I should also wonder why other people have been kind and helpful... though I'm guessing they just have an attitude similar to me.

I suppose you could characterize me as having crappy social skills. Okay, maybe I do, though not intentionally (except to the extent I am not willing to be dishonest, pretend, or just accept assertions that don't make sense to me without further questioning). I again plead guilty to having what are often considered "crappy social skills".

I made the decision long, long ago, when my age was still well within single digits, to not worry about alienating people. I had to learn that lesson to have my own life to live, because a great many people become alienated simply because we do not believe on faith everything they say, because we do not always do what they tell us we must, and because we do things they tell us we must not do. To "keep the peace" and "have social skills" I would have to allow myself to be dishonest and a slave. My decision was a firm "no way, jose" and has remained so since.

But I never alienate someone because I harm them or their property, because I don't. I never alienate them because I tell them how they must live their life, or what they must not do (other than not harm me). To me, these two aspects of "alienate" are utterly and totally different. I will help others, be kind with others, and never harm others. But I will NOT be their slave, or their churches' slave, or their governments' slave, or any kind of slave. And that does indeed make me anti-social according to almost everyone these days. My only answer, given benevolently, is "tough shit" because I'm not willing to give that part of me up. So yes, I'm anti-social. Or as I prefer to characterize this, I am "non-social".


Actually, that is a common practice of mine when I go somewhere new, though I think I won't tell the BASE jumpers I drive or ground-crew for about the 24 cold ones until AFTER they're finished jumping. They always seem a bit confused to learn that I don't drink alcohol and never have, but they are always happy to glug down the suds nonetheless. If I find someone around here who is willing to spill their guts about every aspect of skydiving to proxi, I'll be happy to listen to their advice and stories over a dinner or three that I buy. That's the least I could do. But true, I haven't offered 24 cold ones to everyone who replies in this forum. Is that a common practice in this or other forums? See, I really am non-social to not know about that.


Yet you do believe it is me who needs to make these choices for me, right?



I demand nothing. And if the intentions I've already made clear in recent posts are insufficient, then I guess I'm not yet up to that challenge.



I sure hope they give me new perspectives!


Everyone who doesn't like me or my approach should stop helping. I much prefer that. My past experience has been, people who like my style get along with me, and I get along with them. And people who dislike my style will never really get along with me, and probably likewise. So I just don't see the benefit in being dishonest about my nature to trick people into helping me when they will later wish they had not helped. I don't believe the old cliche that says "opposites attract and get along best". Maybe that makes sense for magnets, but not for human beings in my experience. I've tried to convey this attitude before in this thread, but clearly I am failing miserably. Just consider that yet another of my weaknesses or faults.

In my mind, I shouldn't have to say this, but I will. No offense meant by anything I said above. To the contrary, I consider being honest and straightforward a sign of respect and benevolence, and dishonesty a sign of a scam artist or predator.

So in some areas we''ll just have to agree to disagree. That's okay with me. Live and let live.

is this TK Ghost in disguise.................
?????

Maybe you're right to respond that way, because I didn't state the full story or context. That's what happens when I don't write "the whole novel" every time I post? But I have to ask, why do you assume I won't be very careful about the airspace around me? What makes you assume I won't make sure I'm the last off the plane and highest off the ground when I plan to practice turns? What makes you assume I won't practice these high up in the air where I'm unlikely to have insufficient time to recover? Why do you assume I am necessarily irresponsible?

You see, you don't know me, so you have no way to know whether I have concern for others or not. So I really don't mind your reply, because it might help someone else who reads this thread someday. All I can say here is, maybe I am not what you fear I am. But yes, you have no way to know.

I don't care. What I care about is not harming myself or others. In other words, I care very much about the reality, and not much at all about what others think or say. They own their own brains, and are free to operate them as they see fit. But also, you can be certain that I do listen to others, and I think about what they say seriously. I just don't lie and say "I agree" until my brain does agree. Sometimes that's immediately, sometimes that's a while later, sometimes a long time later, and sometimes never. But you can be quite confident that I am listening.


No, I most certainly do not think you should put up with someone who endangers you! Hell no! However, hopefully if you see some numbnuts performing "crazy" turns while still high above, you'll ask them after they land "what the hell were you doing"... and listen to their answer. If that's not how people work in the skydive community, probably I'll be just as unpopular as I am here. Of course, if I plan to do anything that might remotely require others to know and understand what I plan to do, I'll tell them in advance. But I have zero control over everyone who happens to be on the ground at a drop-zone, so there's no way I can prevent people from drawing wacko conclusions if they don't bother to find out the facts (which few people seem to do in my experience). So be it.

When I used to rock and mountain climb, my climbing partners (who climbed with me before) were always much more willing to trust me than I wanted. Not once did I ever say "trust me", it was always them saying "we've climbed with you before, we know you're alright". Even so, many times I convinced them not to trust me. I'm just saying, when it comes down to doing things, I tend to be the most risk averse of anyone around. While that's a fact, there's no way you can know or understand this, so your comments are taken as constructive.


Look. Try to understand this. Try to listen to exactly what I'm saying, and take it literally, because every time I say it, nobody notices or it just doesn't sink in. Okay, ready?

I refuse to fly under false colors. I refuse to pretend I am someone I am not. I refuse to pretend I have stopped thinking of things you and others don't want me to think of yet. I refuse to be dishonest with you.

You may convince me to do everything your way, eventually. That could happen. But you will never convince me to lie to you and pretend I believe something or accept something or plan to do something before I mean it. You may not realize it, but what you want me to do is act like most people. To humor you (which is disrespect in my book) and pretend to accept and believe everything you say. That ain't gonna happen. Sorry if it bugs you. Sorry if that makes me seem egotistical. Sorry if the world chooses to equate "honest" with "egotistical".

And by the way, where did I get the idea to practice quick turns during skydiving way high up in the sky? From "the great book of BASE". That's where. Now, I'm not saying I'd practice those turns during skydiving just because "Matt said so", because that's not true. It just made sense to me. No, not during AFF, and probably not for dozens of jumps after, and then baby-step by baby-step (which means, gentler turns first, then gradually quicker). What, you think I started my springboard diving "career" with a reverse 1.5 with 1.5 twists? No, that was years later. Why you even imagine in your wildest dreams that anyone would start that way... never mind... you're right about that. Some people are that stupid. Sorry. You win this time. Got me!


I promise to go much further out of my way than anyone else around me to never risk harm to anyone else, you included.


I totally buy all that. But they explicitly said the danger of striking the object we're jumping from is just as dangerous for wingsuit BASE. Of course wingsuit flying has risks that don't exist in regular BASE. I'll repeat myself. Hitting the jump object is supposedly the biggest killer in BASE. I was only saying that one danger should be reduced in conventional (non-proxi) wingsuit BASE. That's all I said. That's all I meant.

Sure, I understand how people can take advantage of the wingsuit horizontal clearing performance and start jumping off things that are impossible or crazy for regular BASE. No matter what people are doing they can push it to and past the limit. That's a fact, and that was clear before I posted in this forum. What was also clear to me is... never before have I been the guy "pushing it" like that, and I have no intention of being anywhere even remotely close to "pushing it" in BASE. That's just not me.


If I knew for sure that was true, I'd shut the frack up.


I am listening. And as much as I may seem to "push back", I am also retaining your advice for further consideration. Any evidence that tends to collaborate what you say will give it more weight. I'm not rejecting what you say, I'm just not fully accepting it until I fully believe it myself. Maybe you don't see that either, which makes sense, because that's hidden away deep inside my head.


Your advice is appreciated, even if I'm not YET able to fully embrace everything. Our biggest problem is, you're not inside my head. If you were, I'm sure you'd be a lot more comfortable about my prospects, and you'd definitely stop worrying about me being careless with anyone else's life. I take everything you said as good will, and you should take everything I say the same, even if you don't like it.

PS: In my experience, there are two ways to get out of trouble. The first is "think far ahead, and avoid getting into the trouble in the first place". The second is, "think and act quickly and wisely". From my perspective, lots of very skilled people seem to get away with just the second for a long, long time. What you see herein is me trying the first way, because I'm certain it has prevented me from getting into deep doodoo many times before.

Sir, this website has rules, basically revolving around being treated as one would like to be treated. we even have a special "kid gloves" rule for this forum.

it is NOT my job to give advice. it IS my job to maintain a little sanity here.

if you would read other threads, especially in General, then you'd be amazed at how well you HAVE been treated, even though you treat the rest of us callously.

I suspect people have mostly responded to you here to protect BASE. it is a passionate subject for virtually everyone here. and you are SHITTING all over it, and the help people have offered.

people devote their lives to this and it ends some. yet with ZERO experience, you plan on doing what no other human being has managed? Cocky. Arrogant. Insulting to everyone else struggling to master human flight.

you continue to ignore any subtle guidance.

now, we will make it official. BE RESPECTFUL. it not, you will force me to take administrative action. I can and will take away your privileges here. I don't really care.

to start, if you respond in an argumentative tone to any of this, I WILL ban you for 4 days.

when you choose your actions, you choose the consequences.

----
to all the other users:
if he persists in his current behavior, I will ignore any violations of the "Beginner's Forum" rules. you will be free to act as if he is an experienced jumper in the "General" forum.

Its like a train wreck, in fast motion but in a zero g world so it just doesn't fucking stop.

Due Diligence? (this thread's original title)

that's a joke!

he might as well be an arm-chair quarterback bragging about how well he can play football and lead his teammates to a Super Bowl victory after watching a few videos!

if he was acting with Due Diligence...
- he might actually have done something to lay the foundations of understanding. but he does not.
- he might consider the credentials and achievements of those offering advice. but he does not.

no one is good enough for him unless they PROVE themselves to HIS satisfaction! yet, he doesn't feel the need to prove himself. he is better than that. after all, he is special.

he is a lazy braggart who thinks his fecal matter does not smell.

he only respects himself.

he calls himself an individual, but desires spoon feeding.

he claims experience is the best teacher, but refuses to step away from his keyboard.

he is lost in his own world.

fortunately, he probably will get hurt or run off most dz's before he can start BASE.

The information you seek is completely useless untill the time you NEED it. Before I made my first skydives I thought a little (very little) bit like you, That all this info would some how prove useful and maybe help me one day. I have spent at least a year reading every manual, book, article I can find regarding anything parachute related. There is a shit load out there and you would be amazed at what you could learn from it.
Then I went and jumped. As it turns out, you have no fucking clue about anything parachute related until you have been and made that first jump. Before I jumped I THOUGHT I wanted to BASE jump one day, and now I have no intention or desire to do so any time in the foreseeable future, or maybe ever. Watching video's scares the shit out of me now! I have nothing but respect for people that have made that extra step. You should do yourself a favour now and listen to peoples advice (Epecially the people who have commented in great length regarding this)
They are the people who KNOW not the people who THINK THEY KNOW.
But anyway, excellent troll thread
"yer gunna die"

This is either some the finest piece of troll work I have ever seen or one of the most moronic, self-absorbed, smug, and clueless attitudes I have run across in a long time.

If it is trolling, I bow to you sir.

If it is real, then I hope you post regularly about your experiences as you progress through skydiving and BASE--that is *if* you ever get away from your computer and actually make a jump.

If you continue to maintain your "honest" relationship with the rest of the world, I will truly want to be witness to it. From a distance, that is. A very *long* distance.

Walt

 
I'm just waiting to see Godwins Law in effect now.

Just a few casual observations:

1. There is BASE gear you can jump out of a plane, it’s called the BASER and the BASEX but it’s not in production anymore so far as I can tell cuz word on the street was that the gear was conducive to horseshoe malfunctions. I don’t know if they cover horseshoe malfunctions in the Great Book of BASE but they suck.

2. If ya want to get all herky jerky under canopy, you should be the FIRST person out of the plane, not the LAST. Hop n poppers see less canopy traffic than regular jump run. You just need to watch out for swoopers. Swoopers are the biggest cause of fatalities right now, more so than wingsuits.

3. Nazis.

The BASE gear that Waltappel is referring to above can be found at the below site. I also am not sure if they are still in production and have not heard anything about the Horseshoe Mal issue but i have heard that some people like them and some people hate them (container that is, don't have any knowledge of the canopy). Why dont you call Kamuran "SONIC" Bayrasli and ask him if you can get one. I know they used them in the Transformers 3 shoot out of the Heli but i could also be lying. FYI the page states that you can see them at Bridge Day 2011 so it sounds like they are still making them. Im just not too sure how badly the belly mount reserve will affect your aerodynamic in a wing suit lol.


http://www.thebaser.com/

By making that statement didn't you just set it into effect? hmmm

Looks like ...

Although one could argue, that my statement would have the reverse effect, and have people hold off longer than would have naturally occured by the to and fro of debate / arguement / trolling.

The issue I see with debate, is that each person becomes more entrenched in their own point of view, and the value apparently derived from discussion never emerges. Rarely have I seen anyone change their thought process through discussion on an internet forum, rarely in fact, does one see a change of mind through debate outside in real life.

I was awaiting Godwins law to take effect, as the whole discussion may as well now reference Hitler and Nazis.

Bootstrap, I actually quite like your online persona, but you will never be able to shift the stance of people here, as we have continued to meet people (on the internet and in real life) who strive for information beyond what they can effectively process, and only when along the path do they look back and realise what we have been saying all along. We even did it ourselves (or at least I did when starting skydiving and then looking toward BASE).

For us, we will never shift Bootstraps thought processes, only with the first steps along the parachute route will he understand what has been going on in this thread.

Quite apt for this thread I think....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3y_7y2TxVU

And lets all.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0spFY1I2NQ

Enjoy your weekends! Play safe y'all!

Bootstrap:
PS) No, I am not comparing you to Hitler.
PPS) Dont take me too literally, I struggle to communicate effectively on forums.

The Words stay the same...
It is Your Understanding that
Changes with time & experience.

For example: SINK

Every begining pugilist has heard this.
At first we bend our knees and ankles
later we learn to align and lower our
pelvis and ultimately it is your energy,
mind, and center of gravity that sinks.

True communication is powerful but
very difficult when people do not
share enough common vocabulary.

Every hear ignorant young people
have a conversation? Lots of words
and connotation but little if anything
is definite, hence the over use of the
words LIKE and WHATEVER placed at
random, inappropriate places, ha ha.

true.

the FAA wants instructors to understand that effective communication begins with a shared experience base. it is one reason to do a little, and learn a little before moving on. it helps newbies learn the jargon and shorthand of an endeavor.

the FAA also defines learning as changing behavior. but the wannabe/newbie must be willing to change.

bootstrap remains welcome to return and I hope he does. Walt really said it best (very typical of him).

Bootstrap, how about a progress report? (I'm not being sarcastic)

Walt

his real name is mark, he lives in the uk, he's a skydiving student and both his solo exits were awesome, there's video.

Glad to hear it. I hope he comes back and posts something about what he has learned.

Walt

I thought he lived in Vegas...or somewhere near there.

i think that guy from vegas is his mentor

You guys actually enjoy being annoyed by my irresponsible exploits? I hesitate to describe the route I have taken, because I know it will just unleash another torrent of great advice, which unfortunately or fortunately I have chosen to only partly follow (and mostly not). Hey, I'm closer to 50 than 20, and my choice was to progress lots faster than prudent, or not bother at all. I'm not interested in becoming competent in my 70s.

Without giving specifics that would spur chaos again, I will say this much. I found a "mentor" who is sort of an interesting mix of "prudent before the fact", "crazy during the fact", and "unconventional". Basically, he doesn't care if I try to re-enter from earth orbit in a bathing suit... as long as I've been read the riot act on what is the likely outcome. Maybe we should call him "co-conspirator" instead of "mentor".

During my "research" into everything vaguely related to base jumping, I sorta fell in love with a recent development in small aircraft (pipistrel virus). Unfortunately, somewhat awkward to exit from, but... well... a really fantastic, lightweight (290kg empty, 600kg takeoff), super economical (30~50mpg) little 2-seater that stalls slow (65kph), glides super-slow w/o power (for exit), climbs and cruises pretty fast (275kph), and flies a long, long way with extended range tanks. My "mentor" also has a pilot license - very convenient!

Put two and two together and... now we both have solutions to base jumping... without needing to actually base jump [every time]. He's been having a ball wingsuit flying circles around spires (ala monument valley), into deep canyons, and... well... I've been having lots of fun too, learning in "the worst possible way" (phrase trademarked by these forums), skipping all the prudent early stages.

This little bugger can land on a dime, take off in under 100 meters, and tolerate fairly rough, bumpy, irregular surfaces (dry creek beds, large spire tops, dirt roads, etc). So we've been able to find several places we can cycle in less than half an hour when we want (take-off, exit, land, repeat). We're having a blast (without being specific). The major downside is... the sw100 is only a 2-seater, and unfortunately, not remote controlled. Hmmmm... remote control. Interesting concept!!!


Anyway, I'm probably going about this in the most unconventional (and crazy) way ever, but so far everything has been great, even if awkward. But not so much lately, now that we more or less figured out what we're doing. And don't worry, we're careful, so nothing [will be] burned. Disclaimer: everything you read here is stupid, the wrong way to go about everything, and is therefore only for purposes of entertainment and anger management practice.

Vids or it didn't happen

Yup, you can assume it didn't happen, because vids is exactly how places and people get burned, not to mention lose our privacy. Maybe someday, somewhere safe, but don't hold your breath.

Proof positive that you have learned something!

I hope you stay alive and post some more.

Walt

Im lost, so now instead of BASE jumping you are flying some other dude around so he can jump his wingsuit out of your plane?

Have you been skydiving or BASE jumping yourself. I have to admit though it sounds pretty dope.