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During the the closing sequence, I'm wondering whether most people are positioning their (stiff loop) toggles IN (toward center of container) or OUT (toward side flaps of container)? I have seen both. Is this personal preference? Snag factor? In my experience, outward facing toggles are much easier to get my fingers through quickly, but as velcro ages perhaps there's risk of displacement during extraction? Thanks for any input!

relax...What do you prefer..?

mine face OUT as habit nothing else..

Start a poll

Mine face out. I was taught to face them in, but I feel more comfortable knowing that they are away from the lines on the inside.

It's totally personal preference.

I face mine out, but that's just my personal preference. I don't think facing them either way makes the toggle more or less likely to be stripped. I do think that the toggles develop a memory in the direction you place them, and I like mine to sit out toward my hands.

Do what makes sense to you.

i gut the grab part of the toggles off, i like a challenge!

I think that toggles should always be positioned facing OUT for a few reasons:

first, it is much easier to get your hands on the big grabs that are facing out rather than trying to get your hands in between the risers to get them.

secondly, after deploying from a stable body position, your arms are more able to move in a direct, unobstructed motion up to the toggles on opening. in time, this muscle memory will become 2nd nature and should significantly reduce reaction time to heading correction.

don't position your toggles facing in. always out.

No no no! This is wrong! You should never position your yonkles facing out for undefined very important reasons!

Actually, I personally believe that it makes absolutely NO difference how you place them in there. Of course do whatever makes you happy but I don't think it makes any difference. Especially your reasoning about grabbing your toggles while they are still facing in the direction you placed them underneath your packjob makes me wonder. I'm always suspended under my risers when my canopy hits linestretch, and my yonkles are pointing backwards, not to either side, no?

Kerkko
BASE1184

I don't know about any one else but on every single parachute jump (skydive or BASE) I have ever done I have always found that my toggles end up on the back of the rear risers regardless of how you stow them. No reaching around or between anything. No taking any longer to grab them then other people. No fear of them tearing off on opening for that matter either. I just reach up and there they are on the back of the riser right where I left them. Why do people get so worked up over such trivial shit? If you think that the positioning of your toggles is gonna be what breaks you then you are sadly mistaken. It's time for people to stop with the gear fear and start concentrating on something more constructive.

fledge ...

what about stash bags,,,, do you like pull string or roll over...

I need another 2 mate??

 

Stiff loop toggles have memory (at least mine do and as Tom mentioned) and tend to protrude off either side of the riser depending on IN or OUT placement during the pack job. Sounds like you have good toggles, congratulations. Glad to hear OUT isn't taboo and is most commonly used!

Like flaming random posts? Gear knowledge cures gear fear.

Bet they don't. In theory yes. In reality not so much.

No flaming intended. Didn't even call anyone a tard

Correct. That's why I took the time out of my busy schedule to assure every body that no matter which way their toggles are facing when packing they can be easily located again on the back of the rear risers after opening

I wouldn't put much thought into the way they stick out if you point them in or out. Just do it neatly and put them where it seems best.

I have always packed mine inward. I've always been a toggle grabber so I'm certain that it's not a factor if it's pointed that way.

Rig well, rig often.

Good luck

i'm with kege and fledgling on this one.

i have always packed them into the center (for no real reason other than personal preference) and almost never look up for them, my hands are just in them on opening. they're always in the same exact place.. it's almost uncanny.

... and that goes for big grabs and normal non-stiffened toggles as well.

At least one well-known packing instruction video recommends facing big-grab toggles inward. I'd estimate his chance of being correct at about 50%. BTW I set mine inward, reason being that with the risers straight down the container the toggles seem to lay better facing in, I don't have any problem grabbing them after opening without even thinking about it.

Is anything wrong with facing toggles DOWN (toward the floor of the container, jumper's back)? I thought the idea was to protect toggles as much as possible from possible hits of the container flaps (especially if you face toggles OUT) or of the nose fabric (if you face them IN).

But then again, some people love adrenaline so much that for them lost toggles are just a bonus.

Kege & fledgling, do both of you not have big grabs? i think you'll find that big grabs tend to go one way or the other when you pack them. if you are not using big grabs and are jumping slider down or sub terminal slider up, i recommend u get a pair.

I think you should always place one in and one out. No matter what the thinking is you'll always grab at least one of them, which is better than sometimes grabbing none :)

I always knew those darm FINS were smart

+1

Will you flatten them, making them into "flat grabs" over the long term?

If not, then I don't think there's anything wrong with that, either. With non-stiffened toggles, I've always placed mine against the pack tray, folded into the "open" position. Again, I think that's pretty much all down to personal preference as well.

 
Aussiehegs, I have WLO yonkels of the Apex kind, like big grabs but with line release. Like I (and others) mentioned, so far my hands have always found them in the same place on opening, on the rear risers, pointing backwards. Do your toggles change their location, depending on how you set them in the pack tray? If you think it makes a difference, you should go by your instinct. My instinct says it just doesn't matter, atleast not opening wise. For some systems, doing it one way might make for a cleaner looking closed container, or not feeling the toggles sticking in your back through the back panel of the container.

Aussiehegs, if you're uncertain about this, I suggest you sacrifice one pack job and open a closed container thats laying on the floor and lift the pack job off the container, looking at what your risers and toggles are doing. Just imagine the risers being under tension.

Kerkko
BASE1184

And I think you'll find that no one ever said that they don't. What has been said multiple times is that regardless of the side you pack them on they will end up back in the centre of the rear riser after opening. It's not rocket science so stop over thinking it.


And I recommend you harden the fuck up. Never had a problem getting my hands into standard toggles on opening either. And guess where I found em? Right there on the back of the riser.

I said the same thing, at least until I had an issue that needed prompt attention. then I wished I had the big grabs! now I do. I bet I'm not the only one.

as far as pointing in or out, I really don't think it matters. more importantly, I've never heard a story (although they may be out there).




oh, and management prefers polite discussion, especially in forums such as Technical. is that too much to ask? please leave the perceived attitude/bullying at home. these forums are read worldwide and many may not know Chopper Reid or his tag line.

I have big grab toggles, and as they age they lose their stiffness and will stay pointed to the inside/outside after opening.
In the beginning i always packed with them facing out.

Then one day i decided to pack them facing in since it seemed to make the risers fit better in the tray.
The next jump was a 900' A and i opened low. The slider came down around 100' (which is low for me). My old big grabs were still pointing in with the canopy surging downwind. It took a couple precious seconds getting my hands in. I barely had enough time to make it over a fence and flare.

From now on i replace my big grabs once they lose most of their stiffness (~100 jumps).
I have packed with toggles facing out since.
In my opinion facing out makes more sense since your hands are going to grab them from the outside.

I have also seen regular toggles hurt someone. Not saying they are a bad idea though, johnny utah's method of folding them seems reasonable but i've never tried it.

RE: Harden the fuck up

Kirko broke his hip bone during his FJC
from trying to hump a boulder on landing
and is still BASE jumping 5+ years later,
sometimes in in frigid snow conditions...

So the guy is a-okay in my book, which
will hopefully be published sooooooon.

Aussiehegs.....I have never used "big grabs", and have no problem finding mine, why do you recommend Kege, Fledgling, or I get a pair now?

I recommend them. No one has to use them but I will always recommend them... and still point them inward.

I missed a toggle once when it was important to not miss a toggle. I soon tried to ruin my day turning away form a pile of stabby stuff with a riser. It turned but nearly put me in it.... then things got really bad but I survived unbroken and educated.

I immediately reinforced my toggles and never looked back. They remain easy to grab and I've yet to miss since. I have a quite a few jumps with a majority of them slider down if that matters to anyone.

The 'Jihad' toggle system seems to eliminate that concern. No struggles. Always ready to spring into action!!

That doesn't matter to me but what does matter is that you gives that cat a break. It's been working nonstop for like 6-8 months. What the hell are you building that requires such a long straight seem?

That's all on him. OCD Kitten must sew. When you're not looking, he stops to, purr, eat, play with anything shiny or jangly, run down the hall, meow, and use the Cat Genie. He took out a loan to keep up with the sewing addiction and picked up Juki DDL-5550-6 single needle. It's a self oiler with a few unnecessary features. It can sew a straight line at 900 Miles per hour if you forget to turn the rheostat down. Meowing and sewing. It's what he does.

Would you like to donate an old pair to muah? I'll gladly pay for shipping.
(Honestly, PM me if you would, I'm cheap.)

haaaaaaaayes! im gonna miss you buddy, MOAB seems to be blown out crazy right now and the two people that i know that live there are out of town right now, so i will be cruising straight to denver from vegas. ill catch you when i get restationed on the west coast in november. lets go hit some pacific northwest fun?

For sure, buddy! I'll have to come out east later this summer, maybe around bridgeday so we can make some leaps and go get Wilsoned!

And to the OP. BASE is about routines, consistancy, and repitition (see what I did there?). Find what makes you most comfortable, that way you spend less time thinking about finding your toggles, and more time grabbing them out of muscle memory. That way you have time to think about the shit that matters, like "did my beer fall out of my BOC.
Cheers!

fledgling, i never said anything about toggles moving around or magically appearing somewhere else like somehow you've seemed to understand it. i have apex WLO toggles and as with standard big grabs, like others have also mentioned, they tend to have a memory when it comes to packing them pointing them to the inside or outside of the pack tray.

the reason i would recommend big grabs/WLO toggles is cos when you see what can happen to talented jumpers like slim on a one off jump (smashed pelvis, broken femurs etc) you could be being picked up by a chopper if u are lucky enough to survive an object strike. i believe that standard flat toggles can be dangerous because of this possibility and should be left for skydiving where u don't particularly need that bit of extra gear technology on your side. all it takes is a one off toggle fumble to correct an off heading on a low jump and just because you've been fine and lightening fast on every other jump doesn't mean you will do the same on the next. i'm talking about everyone in general about this, not you fledgling, so don't take offence. this forum is for an ego free discussion about gear. i'm not claiming to be a super-base know it all god, i'm just contributing to the discussion about what i observe to happen, what i've been taught and what experiences i know and have seen others to have had.

Funny, hell yeah it's shiny

Isn't this thread at the point
where Hitler starts fucking kids?

And again I will reiterate that I do not believe this should make a difference. People need to forget about which side their toggles were packed on or will end up on and understand one simple principle, your toggles are located on the back of the rear riser. Training your self to believe your toggles will end up on the outside or inside (depending on packing) is a flawed practice in my opinion as the only gauranteed place you will ever find them is on the back of the rear riser. If you start there I do not understand how people could possible miss them regardless of which way the loop goes from there. But then again maybe it isn't that easy and I truly need to start over thinking the whole process like every body else on this forum.
For the record the majority of my rigs have big grabs packed inwards. However I wouldn't think twice about jumping a rig not knowing where the toggles might have been packed or if they were stiffened or not.


So are we going to resort to name dropping? I can run a list of equally talented guys that still use standard toggles.


And that is how your last post should have been worded, not "I recommend you guys change your equipment blah blah blah".

err...
what is the big difference?

I've noticed confidence (even false confidence) can promote success. commonly, BASE jumpers boldly state opinions. other jumpers freely ignore opinions with which they disagree. confrontational exchanges crop up when someone can not accept a different view.

if your goal is to get everyone to see it YOUR way, you will fail. that is the nature of BASE jumpers. fortunately, no one must seek permission to jump!

One will be well recieved and the other will cop a big fuck you

that is certainly an interesting comment from someone who likes to quote Chopper Reid!

if you HTFU, you won't be so defensive...

and none of this matters in the instant you don't have any toggles, even though they were positioned just fine. But one thing is for sure. When you go up the second time, after landing in the forrest with your first ever rear-riser-semi-schlare-ninja-roll, don't think about anything. Especially not that fucking toggle. Or you will throw the other one violently into the air for no reason at all. Third time... sing your ABC's throughout the entire jump, and all goes smoothly.

;-) ;-)