Basejumper.com - archive

Bad, bad news.

http://www.ilgiornaledellaprotezionecivile.it/?pg=1&idart=3316&idcat=3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4alSpNmnUA

First clicky

YouTube clicky

Sad news.

BSBD

Does anyone have any Details?

BSBD

Russian jumper, tracking jump, impacted with nothing out.

Disclaimer: I wasn't there; that's just what I've heard through the grapevine. More reliable info will be released with time. If you really need more details asap, drop me a PM.

Very sad news indeed! My respects & condolences to his loved ones.

Does anyone have any details (i.e. his experience, jump numbers, weather conditions, etc.)?

I think Paddy sumed it up nicely in the other thread

http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Second Base Jump in his life.
First one was off the same object.
There was quite a strong wind from the south (4 to 6 meters per second) and we had clouds on the cliff.
I jumped five minutes after him. I wish I could have been on the exit point sooner. I might have been able to talk him out of it.

The ITW is auto regulated. Base jumpers put rules in place for base jumpers. Several of these rules were not respected.
I believe he was on a course. I also believe the guy running the course jumped first (with a wingsuit). If you read this, you can find me at the bar tomorrow and maybe explain to me why you told him to jump...

On this jump another three jumpers landed in the forest. As a matter of fact, tree landings have been the norm for the last week or so.
But that's beside the point.

The ITW is not the easy object it is made out to be.
Yes, for experienced trackers or wingsuit flyers, the ITW is a reasonably easy object to jump.
For a novice who has no idea how to analyse the wind conditions, Brento is NOT an easy object.

This one should not have been jumping.

If you come to Brento, there is a group of locals that jump here every day. I repeat, EVERY DAY... If they tell you that the conditions are not good, I would advise you to listen...

This season couldn't start in a worst possible way. Please be careful.

P.

Thanks for the Info Paddy


From what a few of us have observed over the last few months....I think this is going to be a year to remember....for all the wrong reasons.....I hoped to be proved wrong !

Can you provide any more details about what actually happened? The only information I've heard is that the jumper never deployed.

Clearly you think the Evgeniy shouldn't have jumped, and if the winds were as strong as you say then it probably wasn't appropriate for a novice. However, if he really never initiated deployment, then winds weren't a factor. Was the cloud cover so thick that he couldn't see the cliff? Clearly other jumpers were jumping both before and after Evgeniy, and they didn't consider the conditions unjumpable.

It sounds like the conditions were inappropriate for a novice. But I can't understand if any of those conditions actually contributed to this incident. With over 300 skydives, it's difficult to imagine Evgeniy simply forgetting to deploy. Perhaps he had a bad exit and took too long getting stable? I'm told his gear was inspected by other jumpers before he exited.

Sad news... my condolences to family and friends...

Cheers for the info Guys & the first hand observations from Paddy.

I'm heading over to Brento for a comprehensive FJC in a couple of weeks & just wanted to find out more about this unfortunate situation to be better informed.

Have you read this?
http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

I have only been to Brento once (due to my irrational fear of sliders and long walks) but I would have to agree with the guidelines. I really think there are much better locations for a FJC.

Laters
Julian

Cheers for the link to that article on the rules at MB. I'll definitely respect them! Regarding my FJC: slider up jumps aren't guaranteed, but briefing for them is included. It all depends on my abilities/skills at slider down (bridge jumps).

Being aware of serious incidents & indeed unfortunate fatal incidents is definitely an eye opener. There are no illusions about the brutal reality of this sport. One can only prepare as best as possible to survive & heed advice from those who've been around long enough to give said advice.

Again, my respect & condolences to the deceased & his loved ones..

As far as I know, it was his second BASE jump ever. If conditions are not perfect, you shouldn't jump. Conditions were far from perfect on an object he shouldn't have been on in the first place. It was windy, it was cloudy. When I jumped, clouds were not so bad but I did see a picture of the guy jumping before him and it looks like thick clouds on the cliff.
So, second base jump, your instructor has left the building, it's windy, it's cloudy but the other guys on the course are jumping... in my opinion that's enough to put pressure on you.
also, he did deploy but way too late. two climbers on the cliff saw the whole thing. He impacted straight after pulling. no time to slow down.

Ok, I have to make it clear that I DON'T JUMP but I have been reading about BASE for years, one thing I don't freaking understand, how can a instructor JUMP BEFORE THE STUDENT DOES?!?! That does not make any sense to me at all, I'm in to motorbikes and shit and reading about it made me think that its almost same thing as if my instructor when I was getting motorbike license told me to chase him down a demanding curvy road when I barely knew wtf I was doing...
RIP to the jumper :( Very sad news...

as a beginning base jumper I like to watch people exit to see their technique usually when Im jumping a new object the more experienced people ask if you want to go first or second. but I do not know this specific circumstance.

^This...
But it seems like a pretty technical jump for a second BASE jump.
I hate hearing about these accidents, especially when it's young people and it could have possibly been avoided. It's super sad and super scary.
Condolences to his family, friends, and our whole community. Fly Free...

An FJC at Brento, seriously??? Yikes. Please, find a bridge.

What instructor thinks Brento is a good place for an FJC?

stop being a drama queen - he said it was going to be a comprehensive FJC, so no worries.

i don´t wanna offend my russian friends, but there´s one specific "instructor", blond hair, who´s behaviour would fit a 100% to this guy! he almost lost a student in a similar accident i guess it was 3 years ago. she pulled very late, impacted the talus far down with a fully inflated canopy, fell down a little further and got stuck, a near by jumper/climber got her out of the talus. the instructor who jumped before her in his wingsuit, didn´t even think to hike up to the end of the talus to help or see her.

if it´s this guy, we should have a serious talk to him.

a.

Yahoo - silly seasons is here!

Tree landings.
Wind.
2nd jump with no mentor at the exit.

Insert carnival music here....

As DW used to sing before exits, "Bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce . . . . "

On a more serious (or less stupid) note, people have choices. Those that have "not bounced yet" are still able to make the right choices and decisions.

Whilst condolences to family is appropriate, sympathy to those that make poor choices is not warranted!!!!

People that bounce in these circumstances may or may not be "nice people", that is NOT the point here.

The point here is that when a person makes fundamental f$%^&uck ups - that should be emphasized + highlghted + explained graphically so that at least someone will heed the obvious relearnt lesson - and do the right thing. Leave the condolences to the appropriate forum.


Yes they were! If he made the decision to jump in inappropriate winds, then he possibly has made other inappropriate decisions - like tracking on his second BASE jump. It is a reflection of the mentality of the group (i.e lots of tree landings) that show a fundamental disrespect for safety and human life - their own lives.



An unnecessary death - and the jumper and instructor are fully responsible for it.

do you know how many jumps it will take for you to get comfortable slider down?

will you be able to establish impulse control, or will you be too eager to jump the ITW?

does your instructor deserve your blind trust? (this thread is all about the blind trust the fatality placed in their instructor.)

I know nothing about your intended course beyond what YOU have posted. it might be great. however, your description fails to indicate a disciplined approach. most students will be so adrenalized on their FJC that they won't think too clearly, so why have a nearby temptation?

trust the instructor as much as you like. just remember, it is YOUR health at risk, not theirs. sadly, this fatality illustrates that point.



ps
there is a big difference between teaching and facilitating. most eager newbies prefer the latter.

I hear ya & I hear the other concerns about an FJC at Brento. I didn't want to hijack this thread with details of my FJC. However in summary: I've been studying & practicing tracking jumps (with & without tracking suit), BASE specific canopy drills from H&P's at my DZ for a while now (packing technique, quick reactions, instant heading corrections, object avoidance, etc.). My course begins at a bridge for as long as it takes to develop & improve my basic BASE survival skills. If I'm not ready for slider-up jumps then they're not going to happen & I'll spend the whole course at the bridge. My FJC instructor has made this perfectly clear. He reckons that we'll need a minimum of 15 slider-down jumps before even considering slider-up & Brento. Also I'm under absolutely no illusion that my life is ultimately in my own hands. I've got just under 700 skydives & this is a realisation I've had since before ever taking up that sport too. I trust my instincts & reactions. So far they haven't failed me! Nevertheless, I'll proceed with eyes wide open & with caution...

Would the outcome have been any different had his mentor been at the top?
He did not pull in 12 seconds and went in...
Could have been any object.
For sure have a chat with his mentor, but i'm guessing that he is feeling like shit already.

Jump, count to 11, deploy.
or get to exit
Wind's to high, walk down.

You want to start Base, get a mentor, not a FJC

I feel sorry for nick, he's going to have a busy year.

Yes! Not to the specific jump but to the whole situation.
The fact that there are multiple little issues mentioned here, there, and everywhere in this thread, indicates that little things are being missed. Add a few little things together and they suddenly become a big thing, like a bounce. Which was the end result here.

Although the idea of an instructor showing the way is noble and visually an assistance for a student, it should not be accepted as norm. Being alone at the top of a jump is quite an experience for anyone, let alone a newbie. I don't think it is appropriate most of the time.

The easy way around this is for the student to have watched one load go off and then jump on an ensuing load.

Bottom line is little bits of sloppiness here and there add up.

Try to get everything as right as you can - and it will reduce the summation factor mentioned above.

The questions begs to be asked, does the "instructor" think that going off first is an issue? How did that person come to be an "instructor"?

It is not his direct fault that the guy bounced, but factors are adding up that have not assisted the situation.

Ronald

I'm clueless how an instructor can assess their students mental state from the bottom.

I don't know how they can supply guidance at the critical time just before exit, when student's minds like to race around.

I don't know how an instructor can instill good habits at the exit point, if not there.

2nd jump, looking at clouds? sounds like an opportunity to freak out. calming words from a caring person can relax a newbie.

new jumpers need to consider what works for themselves. (some might prefer this sort of arrangement.) making important calls is part of the learning experience. choosing an instructor that fits is a huge decision.

Are those a "few calming words" or talking someone into making a jump they are not mentally prepared for? If the newbie decides they are jumping I don't see much of a difference if they have someone standing beside them, or someone headed down to the landing area. Seems the only way this could have been avoided is if the instructor was there at pull time, and I don't think the solution is tandem BASE for everyones first terminal BASE jump.

RIP brother.

Well said.

So far several excuses for why this accident should not have happened have been proposed. It was windy. It was cloudy. The instructor should have been there. ITW is too technical for a FJC.

Not all of these claims have been verified. And all of them contributed nothing, or next to nothing, to causing this accident.

What we do know is that an experienced parachutist took an incredibly long delay on what is, in the BASE world, a relatively forgiving object. Yes, ITW isn't as safe as the Potato Bridge, but as far as cliffs come it's pretty low risk. Hell, less than a decade ago it was common practice to toss first-time jumpers off the Nose! And believe me, ITW is a LOT safer than all the slider-up objects in Russia.

There are times when ITW isn't appropriate for students. The main concern at ITW isn't the cliff itself, but the wind conditions. And if this jumper had downwinded it into a tree or suffered a canopy collapse from a downdraft I could understand the argument. But that's not what happened. Either there was a gear malfunction, or (more likely) he took an insanely long delay of more than 11 seconds.

Either way, without credible details suggesting negligence on the instructor's fault, it's inappropriate to place blame for this incident on anyone other than the deceased.

If the instructor did exit before Evgeniy (and we have no confirmation that this is the case), he may have had plenty of reason to do so. Maybe Evgeniy asked him to go first. Maybe Evgeniy was cool and calm. Maybe Evgeniy didn't want someone there at the exit point with him trying to whisper soothing phrases into his ear. Maybe Evgeniy decided to hike back down, watched everyone else jump, and then jumped himself. Whatever happened, we have no evidence to suggest the instructor did anything wrong.

Yep, and that is at all times.

Can you explain? ITW isn't Kjerag, but it's not that much worse either. Is there some reason FJCs are appropriate at Kjerag but not ITW? In terms of height and rock drop they're very similar. The only differences being:

* The topography of ITW creates more turbulence when the wind is blowing
* There is a team of instructors at at Kjerag
* If you can fly to it, the Kjerag landing zone has a nice wet "out"

The wind issue is dealt with easily: jump early in the morning or late in the evening. And most of the Russian jumpers who come to ITW for their first jumps come with an experienced instructor. The ones who arrive without an instructor wouldn't find the exit point anyway.

All things being equal, Kjerag is the better option, but I'm not aware of any reason ITW should be completely off limits. And Kjerag is only open 3 months of the year. Are you suggesting Russian students travel all the way to Idaho for an FJC? Or that Crimea is a better option? Or that it's wiser to start on local slider-down antennas before going to ITW?

(mods - this is off topic...feel free to split this off the original thread)

That is a very safe and reasonable option. I can also think of many student-friendly bridges in Europe, some of them also have FJCs running.

I personally feel that instructors can add more value at the exit point than at the lz. I've jumped with newbies and watched them quake (as I did). last minute questions crop up at the edge. gear fear intrudes. having someone to say calming words and tell them to take as much time as necessary helps. plus, if the newbie chooses NOT to jump, then the instructor can ensure the newbie can get home.

the instructor allegedly jumping first may or may not have contributed to the anxiety level of this fatality. we also apparently will never know the mental state of the student before jumping (unless someone else admits to being up top.)

yup, a late pull seems like the most obvious reason for this fatality. it is a solid physical explanation. Humans tend to be complicated and both intellectual or emotional issues could play a contributing factor.

this Incident forum is for educational reasons. I believe this general discussion can prove valuable to newbies considering a FJC (but only if they actually read it...). assessing risks, without experience, tends to be brutally difficult. if this thread gets them thinking about what is right for themselves, wonderful. I'd rather see a discussion that can open minds, even if it includes speculation, than a cold, factual, authoritative report. besides, why put it in the Forums if we did not want a discussion?

Believe me, as a Student I'm reading everything. Trying to absorb as much info as possible to be as informed & as prepared as I possibly can be. So reading everyone's opinions on this unfortunate incident is truly appreciated.

...this cat & mice game about suitability of ITW for first jump course is really funny.
I know at least 10 jumpers who made their 1st jump there.
Honestly , beside Kjerag there is no better cliff in Europe for 1st terminal.
Instead of denying that fact , better would be to accept it and work in order to make this place even safer.

As far as the jumper here who died on his second jump..
It is pointless to accuse his mentor or teacher as it is also very clear that he had no real mentor nor teacher.
Even if it was one, guilt is on the jumper as his decision is the last one.
He probably had a friend or more experienced but not very mature jumper beside him, that's all.
Sad is to see that this fatality was easy to avoid though...

Or does not help in this case!

Sorry wwarped - a golden opportunity for a smartarse like me not to miss!

I think wwarped this is thread has gone from a no pull accident to a disscussion on the difference between a good and bad mentor or a friend taking you for a jump.

you made some points about gear, and calming words here are my thoughts.

I don't think having gear fear at the top of an object is a particularly clever time to have it, this should have been dispelled during your learning, you know that time before you jump, when you are observing, ground crewing, watching others pack, asking questions, over a 6 month period... gear at this point should be second nature, like when you pack your sports rig, bish bosh bash, its done…. I’m confident in my gear time to go.

I also would not have wanted calming words whispered into my ear, no offence to my mentor, but I would have told him to go brush the sand out of his vagina the moment he started to coo in my ears, telling me everything was going to be alright.

The difference between a good mentor and a FJC is massive, neither will stop YOU from going in if YOU make a mistake, but one of them allegedly answers telephone calls at 3am in the morning, prepares you months in advance for your 20 seconds of glory, and keeps on preparing and sharing their knowledge with you, so you can limit your mistakes to non fatal ones with a bit of luck.

Although like base, maybe mentors are not for everyone, I know other base jumpers out there feel that they can get there base in a can, and I wish them all the luck in the world.... horses for courses and all that, but I know which worked for me…

In the big picture the more I jump the more I myself wonder about the complications of this sport, realistically it’s about lobbing off an object, in low winds, with a 42 inch or a 36 pilot chute, either slider up or down. and pulling 150ft or more above the ground and pulling those rope things left or right and pulling them down together at the same time when I see the individual blades of grass.

But I also have a truck load of skydives, equating to 1 a day over 4 years.

Great point - but - at what stage should a jumper be making their first terminal BASE jump?

The second jump?

There is another discussion entirely - with many different opinions. I think terminal should come later. Others think it is a good way to learn BASE.

As a mentor / instructor / tutor / whatever, it is much easier to control a BASE jump with a bridge pca than a terminal cliff.

Bok Robi - Kako si? Sto radis? Ne cujem puno od tebe. Pozdrav iz Australije!

There is great irony in your name INZITE.


The problem with your discussion is that you are trying to clear a person from blame instead of trying to discuss possibilities.

Bottom line is that a MAJOR f$%^uckup occurred and someone +/- someone else, did something or several or many things wrong.

Yes it is sad that a person died. Yes, everyone should feel great sympathy for his family and friends (but remember that the jumper put them into that position - not people making comments on some public forum!).

The mentor / whatever that was with the deceased is probably feeling like shit too (how much I am not sure considering all the tree landings that occurred prior to this fatality??). And so he should to some extent. There is great responsibility in leading people into potentially high risk situations. Maybe it is not his fault directly, but he led that person there in some way. If the person was not ready to jump for example - the mentor should have walked away from the situation.

Concluding - someone has to be responsible.

And the most important person is the person who is jumping next - they need to learn about all the reasons that did or may have led the deceased to their death.

Armed with that knowledge they can make a better informed decision - and then become even more personally responsible for their outcome. Instead of blindly relying on others too much.

Jumpers need to just harden up, take responsibility, call a spade a spade, and deal with their activity with fact, rather than emotion.

actually, I have no problem with the picture you painted of how to begin and advance in BASE. (I disagree with the "cooing in the ear" bit. I don't believe anyone should encourage another to jump. it is their call, not mine.)

evidently, this fatality was a no pull on their second BASE jump. we don't know why. we don't know how the jumper prepared (did they GC for 6 months?). the experienced jumper may or may not have been a good instructor. we probably will not know the agreement between the two.

the takeaway for experienced jumpers - no pull. sucks.
the takeaway for wannabee jumpers - use caution, investigate, ask questions, etc. before blindly trusting your potential "instructor."

but, that's just my opinion and I've been wrong plenty of times!

1st terminal - yes!

1st BASE - uh, probably NO! Would you rather not throw them off your local bridge a few times before driving to ITW?

true , but get familiar w the fact that more and more people does want to jump high jumps only... not even heaving the SD caniopy...

Well the way I looked at it was that if I had been on the exit point without my wingsuit I probably wouldn't have jumped.

How can one say that bad weather conditions are no a contributing factor to this incident? I don't get it.

Too many people coming to Brento with 0 experience, no mentor, no idea. I know what BASE is about but look, the only reason we can enjoy this object is because it's self regulated. If a few don't respect the rules and accidents happen, don't be surprised if we have to jump Brento in the middle of the night because the mayor of the commune bans jumping...

After the accident the cops were at the landing everyday for a few days. I'd say they weren't particularly impressed with people landing in trees and jumping in high winds...

How can bad weather not be a contributing factor?

***not necessarily related to this accident***

A jumper could exit on a perfect day with
zero clouds or winds BUT still never pull...

A jumper could exit on a shitty day with
rain and wind BUT still deploy a parachute.

In my opinion, if you BASE jump and do NOT
deploy then you have bigger problems than WX.

At Brento, there's a big difference in the delay you can take if you put on a decent track compared with a vertical delay. You could exit into cloud and believe you had a good track on and take a 10-12 sec delay. If you were actually in a vertical descent or tracking in the wrong direction or if you weren't tracking straight - you could get a nasty surprise!

For me I think this incident shows the different cultures and attitudes in BASE jumping and also to self preservation.

Should BASE be an activity done in the safest way?

Or is jumping from a cliff in wind and cloud with little instruction the way to get more out of BASE jumping?

There is no right and wrong, but there is a way to jump that will help keep the object open for the future.

(And maybe one day they will stop landing in the trees..)

I don't know what the conditions were at the time of this jump or if weather contributed, but weather can significantly contribute to a late or no pull in a variety of ways.

We all know that counting a delay of more than a few seconds is not very reliable, and many people tend to forget or not count after exit and rely on visual cues. If you are in fog or cloud and are inexperienced you may become dis-orientated, may not be able to see the ground (or unable to see if clearly), rain in the eyes is nasty, and goggles/visor getting misted up doesn't help.

We don't know why there was a late\no pull so it's all speculation, but it's reasonable to assume something contributed to it, he hardly forgot, someone mentioned he had a gear check.

As someone smarter than me likes to say "slop in one area leads to slop in another area". Jumping in dodgy conditions and frequent tree landings is a bad indicator for the group.

I have never been to ITW.

I have never been terminal on a BASE jump.

None of my comments were about THIS accident.

YES, we all should only jump in safe WX conditions!!

at least one experienced jumper died while jumping from an A into a cloud bank.

yes...
and no.

if an experienced local does something stupid - oh well.

if an experienced visitor does something stupid - it's very disrespectful to the locals that must clean up after them

right and wrong need to be decided by locals. these are the people who deal with the authorities and ensure an object remains open.

as for newbies... they need to educate themselves as much as possible. talk to a variety of people. don't depend on someone else to make decisions for you. if you don't know enough to trust your own decisions, should you be jumping? understand your options and what you may face. be comfortable with as much as possible.

I disagree on the 'oh well' part, authorities don't distinguish between locals and visitors so anybody doing something stupid brings the site closer to shutdown. It would be a greater offense of the local than an ignorant visitor.

 

at least one experienced jumper died while jumping from an A into a cloud bank.

yes, Tom. I remeber

Theres quite a few actually

http://www.splatula.com/bfl/#bfl43

http://www.splatula.com/bfl/#bfl62

Here's another on there second in brento
http://www.splatula.com/bfl/#bfl57

If you read the last few lines in this one.
http://www.splatula.com/bfl/#bfl74

Just saying