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Here is some information many of you may find useful. It helps to clarify a few things about our legal system and why most of the time the outcome of court cases is not what the party had hoped for.

I have been doing a lot if reading about law and rights and the like for a while and have come across this tidbit of information about attorneys... it may explain why many people despise attorneys but can't really put their finger on why.
I do not dislike lawyers, they are merely doing their jobs, and most do not realize exactly what they are signing up for, I hope! I understand that since we are operating in a system designed and ruled by lawyers it is imperative that we know the rules in which to operate. I'm not saying that we should not consult a lawyer before our court date, I'm saying that by all means talk to one...BEFORE COURT. They know the rules and can possibly steer you in the right direction but be aware they may also steer you in the wrong direction. Hopefully the following information will get you to at least reconsider having a lawyer represent you in court.

If there are any lawyers in the crowd, I would love your input on this as this is only my opinion and would like to have an open floor. Although I am not learned in LEGALESE so you may have an advantage over me.

This information was taken form the Corpus Juris Secundum, which is basically one of the main legal encyclopedias out there that lawyers and judges go to to better understand previous case law and interpretations of the law. http://en.wikipedia.org/...orpus_Juris_Secundum

I stated in a previous thread that an attorneys first duty is not to his client but rather somewhere else. Is this true?

It states in § 4 ATTORNEY & CLIENT 7 C.J.S. that "His first duty is to the courts and the public not to the client, and wherever the duties to his client conflict with those he owes as an officer of the court in the administration of justice, the former must yield to the latter."

OK so an attorneys first duty is to the court.... well what exactly is a clients relationship to their attorney?

§ 2-3 ATTORNEY & CLIENT 7 C.J.S states that " A client is one who applies to a lawyer or counselor for advice and direction in a question of law, or commits his cause to his managemnet in prosecuting a claim or defending against a suit in a court of justice, one who retains the attorney, is responsible to him for his fees, and to whom the attorney is responsible for the management of the suit, one who communicates facts to an attorney expecting professional advice. Clients are also called "wards of the court" in regard to their relationship with their attorneys."

You should now be asking yourself what are "wards of the court".

According to Davis Committee v. Loney, 290 Ky. 644, 162 S.W.2d 189, 190. Wards of court are "Infants and persons of unsound mind placed by the court under the care of a guardian". Did you get that? When you have an attorney you are either considered of unsound mind (insane) or an infant.

Also, in order for a court to move forward in any case they need to gain jurisdiction over you and the subject matter. If you hire an attorney you automatically give up jurisdiction.

There you have it.... a compelling reason to NOT hire an attorney to represent you in court. A better idea would be to study the law and go into court "in propria persona" or "pro se".

Today is my birthday and this is my gift to you!!
BASE 570

Oh one last question to all the lawyers out there... Do you actually have a license to practice law or do you possess a certificate and are they the same thing?


Disclaimer::: NOTICE! This is NOT legal advise and any use or attempted use of this information is at your own risk!!

Happy Birthday !!!

You can't say "our" before defining "we".

"We" is defined as 'Persons' governed by the CJS (Corpus Juris Secundum or body of Law). which includes all US Citizens.

I would also expect that most societies that have a legal system and representation by lawyers would be similar since many stem from the same roots.

it all started with a one-eyed thief's second offense...

Happy Birthday! Thanks for sharing that gift with us. This is a great little tidbit of information. I have been dabbling online looking at this type of thing for the past several months. This just scratches the surface. The legal system is not what most people think it is. Common Law vs. Equity Law vs. Law Merchant. What jurisdiction does one fall under if they do not know any better, or what tricks are used to establish jurisdiction under anything other than Common Law? It's a convoluted and masked 'legal' system and charade that most people don't even realize is being played.

Oh one last question to all the lawyers out there... Do you actually have a license to practice law or do you possess a certificate and are they the same thing?

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The certificate is your law degree, JD in the States. Your license is your membership in the state bar which you earn by taking the state bar exam.

In law school one of my favorite areas was ethics. When you hire a lawyer, stay on top of his ass!! He's your representative/agent to the court. If he misses a filing deadline it's your ass, not his. He's guilty of malpractice but you still lose! Whether it's civil or criminal.

Are you asking me these questions or are you just putting it out there for everyone to contemplate?

Most can't even imagine what is really going on..... Just when I think I have an idea of the game that is being played I realize I don't know shit!

Hi zoobrothertom,
thanks for your input!
I have a couple of questions that you may be able to answer to help me get my head around this interesting topic.

In your reply, what does JD in the States mean? (jurisdiction?)

Also, are you insinuating that attorneys DO NOT have a state issued license to practice law?

thanks for your response!

I am a lawyer, and I will be at the Perrine in May base jumping. JD stands for juris doctorate. That is the degree you need to be eligible to take the bar examination. If you take and pass the bar examination, then you can practice law. That is where it gets VERY scary. You have a person that has a license to do something that they know nothing about yet they can do whatever they want. You get in trouble doing something extreme find a lawyer to represent you that has your experience.

Just throwing that out there for people to think about. Although, I would be pretty impressed if you could give me any answer other than "it depends".

If anyone is interested, look up Law Merchant or Maritime Admiralty Law. There is more than one "court", but most people just assume that the "law" is the "law". How far down the rabbit hole you want to go is entirely up to you. Keep an open mind and do your own fact checking and you might be surprised at the depth of what is going on.

Nice, thanks for clearing that up for me!

My other question is still unanswered although from your response it seems as though you are saying that the state BAR issues what is interpreted as a license to practice law. Is that correct?

Your last sentence cannot be deciphered by me. Is it missing a word or two, punctuation or is it that legalese you lawyers speak?

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After earning the JD (Juris Doctorate), you are eligible to take the State Bar Exam. If you pass, you are issued a license to practice law in that state. In Texas the license is/was gold colored. There are a lot of jokes about gold & money!

As for that last sentence, I think he meant someone who has experience with your specific problem. Definitely some good advice.
Later,

Who issues the license to practice law? The State or the BAR association?

Your just full of questions!

Officially, it's the state.

You know, eventually you're going to ask one I don't know.

Yes I am full of questions, as should everyone else. It seems people don't investigate others claims and just 'go along' with what has been told to them especially from people in 'authority' positions. It was my understanding also that the State issued the license but now I'm not so sure.
I keep reading that the State only checks to see if the applicant qualifies, then it issues a 'certificate', which is not the same thing as a license. After the State issues a certificate of qualification the state BAR, upon acceptance and payment of dues, issues a BAR card.

Maybe these questions may help clear things up...

If the State issues the license, why does one need to have a BAR card to practice law?
Who accredits the various law schools?
Who holds BAR exams?
Who collects and keeps the license fee?
Who can remove lawyers from public office?

And a few more random ones...

Do judges need to be lawyers first?
What's the difference between an 'attorney at law' and a 'counselor at law'?

Thanks again for your input!!

570

My Lawyer had represented multiple rappers on gun charges.

She did ok for me. She wasn't cheap though.

No regrets. I have nothing on my record.

I'd get a lawyer again in a heartbeat.

_justin

also; The NYPD Lies.

I'm not sure what the point of her telling you this statement is, unless it was to impress you. Which it sounds as though it did since you are repeating it to us.


Of course she wasn't cheap. That is the point of the commercial based debt system we are in. You either 'pay' with your debt notes or you go to jail and they issue a bond on your ass and then bundle it up with thousands of others and then sell them on the market to 'pay' for your debt.


As far as you know...


Yes, they are all going to lie because they are looking out for the best interests of the public and we also don't know how to rebut their assumption, so it's easy for them. It then goes on the record as fact and since we have not put any evidence into the court to rebut it, we loose. A lawyer arguing your point is not evidence, it is merely heresay, which the Judge can accept or not. Most likely they won't but it may seem like they did because they 'let you off' with a fine, court cost and a hefty lawyer bill. What you don't realize is they got what they wanted all along... money and control, which keeps the machine running and keeps you in line and in debt.

In Florida, the Bar is an agency given authority by the Supreme Court of Florida. The Bar makes recommendations to the Supreme Court to allow (or not allow) an individual to practice law and the Supreme Court usually rubber stamps it.

Maybe these questions may help clear things up...

If the State issues the license, why does one need to have a BAR card to practice law?

It doesn't take a Bar Card to practice law. I'd venture most lawyers in FL don't even know where there Bar cards are. The card is essentially just proof that you're a lawyer, although I've never had anyone challenge me on it. Regardless, the Bar issues the cards


Who accredits the various law schools?

The American Bar Association


Who holds BAR exams?

The Florida Bar, with authority of the Supreme Court of Florida


Who collects and keeps the license fee?

The Florida Bar


Who can remove lawyers from public office?

The Florida Bar puts lawyers on trial in front of the Supreme Court


And a few more random ones...

Do judges need to be lawyers first?

Now, yes. Not always. There was a judge up in N. Fla. that just retired within the last 10 years that was never a lawyer, just got grandfathered in.

What's the difference between an 'attorney at law' and a 'counselor at law'?

Nothing.


Also, keep in mind that this stuff is all state specific. What applies in Kansas or California may not be the same in Florida. Hope this helps

Thanks, Jack.

I was late getting back to check the forums.

Thanks for your contributions Jack! It's helping me better understand the game that is being played.


According to the answers given, and it seems zoobrothertom does not disagree, and from additional research I have done, this is the norm. The State is only involved with issuing the license through the 'recommendation' of the State Supreme court who apparently all need to be lawyers.

So from what I am understanding the state does not accredit the law schools or hold Bar examinations. They do not issues state licenses to lawyers. The Bar Association accredits all the law schools, holds their private examinations and selects the students they will accept in their organization and issues them a so-called State license but keeps the fees for themselves. The Bar is the only one that can punish or disbar a Lawyer. They also select the lawyers that they consider qualified for Judgeships and various other offices in the State. Only the Bar Association or their designated committees can remove any of these lawyers from public office.

The American BAR Association is a private membership corporation whose main goals are:
Goal 1: Serve our members. (Objective: Provide benefits, programs and services which promote members’ professional growth and quality of life.)
Goal 2: Improve our profession. (Objectives: 1) Promote the highest quality legal education; 2) Promote competence, ethical conduct and professionalism; 3) Promote pro bono and public service by the legal profession.)
Goal 3: Eliminate bias and enhance diversity. (Objectives: 1) Promote full and equal participation in the association, our profession, and the justice system by all persons; 2) Eliminate bias in the legal profession and the justice system.)
Goal 4: Advance the rule of law. (Objectives: 1) Increase public understanding of and respect for the rule of law, the legal process, and the role of the legal profession at home and throughout the world; 2) Hold governments accountable under law; 3) Work for just laws, including human rights,and a fair legal process; 4)Assure meaningful access to justice for all persons; and 5) Preserve the independence of the legal profession and the judiciary.) [wiki]

You may say big deal, they only enforce and interpret the laws, they don't write them. Unfortunately, if you look a littlecloser you will see that the Senate and the House of Reps.(who pass laws) have many lawyers in their midst.
Remember a bill goes to the Senate first and needs a majority vote of 51 to get the bill to the next level. This year there are 57 Senators that have a law degree.

Next up is the vote in the House which needs a majority vote of 218 to pass. Currently there are 168 Representatives with a law degree in the House.

Does anyone else see what may be happening here? A privately run society (the legal society) are taking over and are controlling our legislative and judicial branches of government. This leaves only the executive branch which consists of the President, V.P., Sec. of State and various other cabinet positions. Let's see... Obama, Biden and Clinton all have law degrees. So it seems lawyers and the American BAR Association have their fingers in all areas of the government and remember who their loyalties are to... themselves

Is all of this correct?? It seems to be the case to me. It's no wonder our 'laws' are so complicated, ever changing and never seem to be what 'we the people' want.


I need to do more research on this because I have a sneaky suspicion there is a difference.