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Most people don't use cutaway toggles, and when they have a nice SU lineover, it suddenly becomes a good idea to have those. What kind of those do you have? It seems strange to me that Apex strongly recommends the use of their toggles, while Morpheus says ''we don't really advocate the use of HPBG'', and Adrenalinbase is neutral.
I'm getting an impression that the guys at Morpheus are such pros that they always pull low, and will never have time to clear a lineover by releasing a toggle (although I understand that "heading first, lineover second''). Also, does anyone has a feeling that adrenalinbase toggles are overly complicated, even though I like the idea of having a tab w/cable instead of a ring w/pin.

Some questions to think about:

How many documented saves have we seen on the line release toggles?

How many documented saves on a slider up line over with a hook knife?

How many cases of accidental toggle release have we seen with the line release toggles?

How many cases of accidental toggle release with the hook knife?

How many jumpers who experienced a slider up line over had a line release toggle but failed to activate it?

How many jumpers who experienced a slider up line over had a hook knife but failed to use it?

Wow this is complicated. I think that these toggles are probably not needed. But to me they have no disadvantages (if properly assembled, maintained etc etc). I think that the chances of a premature toggle release are about the same as a slider up line over.
And because a line over is probably worse, it's a good idea to have them.
It also solves the non-existing problem of line over fear I guess.
Was ist das: accidental toggle release with the hook knife?

 
It's when a basejumper accidently pulls the hook-knife from it's pouch and slices thru the brake-lines. Happens more often then you'd think.

I have seen around 20 accidental (premature) toggle fires on line release toggles.



When someone accidentally (prematurely) cuts off a toggle with a hook knife. Personally, I've never seen it happen.

having 2 pairs of apex wlo toggles and 1 pair of adrenaline base line release toggles, i would advise getting the ones from adrenalin.

- when changing the setup from slider up to slider down (-> change routing of brake lines) you have to pull open the velcro on the apex wlo toggles, on the adrenalin version you can just pull out the yellow cable. this doesnt sound like a problem at first, but the narrow velcro strip on the apex toggles was getting weak quite fast, so this adds one point more to your system that you have to maintain. (a weak velcro would increase the chance of a premature relase)

- on the apex toggles the thing you have to pull to release is a ring (on one of my toggles its rubber, on the other one its metal, i think the metal ones are newer), on one side this makes it a bit easier to find the right thing to pull (the adrenaline toggles have a flat piece of stiffened fabric to pull), but also increases the chance of a premature again. (when its easier to grab, its more prone to get snagged...)

- ive seen one lost apex wlo toggle (the jumper set the brakes the wrong way), on opening the tension of the brake line came directly on the pin and the pin broke. i dont think this would happen to the adrenalin toggles, im pretty shure the could take the load. (wasnt there some guy here with a pull test machine some time ago?)
on the other side, setting brakes the right way on every jump should be prevent stuff like this.

of course, prematures releases can happen with both, but i think on a well maintained, and properly packed system this is really unlikely to happen.

Not really sure WLOs are necessary, but they seem like a good idea to me. FWIW, I got some Apex WLOs for free a while back and have put well over 150 jumps on them, about half slider up and half slider down and never had an unintentional release. I do really like the ease of yanking the lines off the toggles when reconfiguring from up to down as well. But otherwise, I probably wouldn't have ever bought them myself.

Maybe apples to oranges here, but I was skydiving down in Texas back in '02 and another guy at the DZ had some lines break on opening. And his hook knife was coincidentally missing from the pouch upon landing. Slow-mo review of his camera showed his hook knife whipping out of it's keeper pocket, and actually slicing a few lines before it flew off to rust somewhere in a cow pasture. It was one of those "holy shit" videos.

There's also a good SU video of a tower jump in the desert somewhere -> lineover -> duderama uses a WLO toggle to clear it. (youtube? i'm lazy)

I have WLOs now. I am not educated on Adrenalin's version.

I have a copy of it. It's the only documented save I'm aware of on a line release toggle.

Line Over Save

I like mine.

Thanks T.

One save isn't that good enough, I use Adrenaline on my two rigs... cant see any disadvantige... only possibilities.

Once needed, I might not have altitude but thats another choise.

Nice save by the way...

The point I was trying to make was that I have seen:

One documented save on line release toggles.
Numerous accidental releases on line release toggles.

One documented save on a hook knife.
Zero accidental releases on a hook knife.


Given that, I am not certain that the line release toggles are superior to the hook knife.

That's not the line of thinking I, and I assume many others, use when deciding whether to use a line release toggle for slider up jumping.

Edit to add; oops, that was a tension knot, not line over. I deleted that part. But my thought still stands. There have been jumpers who have spiraled in under a line over without cut away toggles. I cannot imagine a single one of them would have turned down a set of cut away toggles as they looked up at the mess if they were given the option. I'll give myself the option.

I believe a release toggle is a much easier thing to use under stress than a razor blade. With the blade, you better be sure to cut the correct line and not drop it.

Adrenaline's cut away toggles are a great design. Properly rigged there is a zero chance of a premature fire. If you have confidence that a 3 ring won't release prematurely, you will know you don't have to worry about these toggles.

I don't care for Apex's design. I have heard of these firing prematurely.

if that's the case, then there is no reason not to use them.

I don't have a set of the Adrenalin toggles, so I can't really express an opinion on that specific set. If they've worked out the mis-fire issue, then I can't see a reason not to use them.

I agree with your reasoning. Although I have luckily never had a lineover, I have seen them on video and would not want to start looking for a hook knife when spinning towards the ground. much rather pop that toggle right off. But I can see Tom's point of view, as he has succesfully used a hook knife on a lineover off Yellow Ocean. However, he was succesful in dealing with the malfunction mostly because of two things: one, it looked like his lineover was fairly calm and two, more importantly, he had plenty of time as he pulled absolutely dirty nose-bleeding high! ;)

Kerkko
BASE1184

few pics from the adrenalinbase concept:

http://www.adrenalinbase.com/...gle_installation.pdf

Robi and Jean-Noel have kindly sent me a set to look over. I got them today and put them on a rig immediately, and made a jump off the bridge with them.

They look really secure. I'll run them through the next two courses (this weekend and next) and report back with my thoughts after that.

Nice, looks like we got a consensus

Also, if anyone buys the WTF toggles, post to let us know how it goes.