Basejumper.com - archive

Say you jump with L-bars(It's psychologically hard for me to have 3-rings), but then, there is a jump with trees or a water landing as an out(Perrine). Then can you put removable harness rings with 3-ring risers? So you basically have a reconfigurable rig. Is anybody out there who does that? And for some reason I can't find those rings anywhere, not even paragear or djassociates, that's probably just me but can anyone put a link on these magical rings? I know there was a similar thread some time ago, but I want more InFormation.

Do able, but rarely needed... and
usually simple is better than complex,
especially in the begining of a sport.

I'm thinking he might be thinking of another option.

he could have a vision of 2 sets of risers. one terminating in a standard 3-ring, one set terminating in a loop for an L bar. both sets of risers could be attached to the harness via a set of L bars. (the standard 3 ring setup would require a short length of webbing and the large ring as an "adapter.")

I could be wrong.

this arrangement sounds like a solution that is far worse than any perceived problem, but everyone is free to innovate!

Yeah, almost like that. I'll try again.
1 Rig(MLW terminating with a loop for Lbars) and 2 sets of risers(3ring and Lbar). First way to go: Lbar risers attached to the rig via 2 Lbar sets(duh). Second way to go: 3Ring risers attached to rig via 2 replaceable harness rings (see pic). Does that make sense? The picture shows the thingy that I am trying to find.

This is actually very easy to do with many rigs on the market today.

You can just attach some removable rings to the tersh loops. You'll hang a little weird, and you may want some custom (longer) risers, but many manufacturers put tersh loops on standard (Asylum, for example).

I set something like this up for a student in January (he's a paragliding instructor and wanted something for paraglider cutaways).

Having some trouble locating a source for the rings. Have you tried just calling UPT and seeing if they have some they'd sell you?

I stand corrected!

sadly, I forgot about those removable rings... it greatly improves the idea.

hi!

first off, write dj associates a mail. i got some of those rings there 2 years ago, back then they also didnt have them in the online store.

if you go with toms idea and put those main 3rings in the tersh loops, you also have to figure out how to route a cutaway cable to them in a safe way.

if you go with wwarpeds idea, you also have to route some kind of housing for your cutaway to the 3 ring that would be located a bit higher than on a rig with a 3ring built in.
therefore i would be very careful when using the housing you have in your rig / when you use a ready made housing for that rig to not get tension on the 3ring loop / housing when riser is under tension.

the replaceable 3rings are the best option if you have only one rig.

for all ideas described here, if you want to get 3ring on your rig because your afraid of waterlandings, i would suggest using a hardhousing.
and if you do so, you will most likely remove the hardhousing again if your majority of jumps is with the lbars, or find a way to stow the housings somewhere.

@greenmachine, i dont understand, one can order a base rig with lbars at every major manufactor, i have them on 3 of my rigs, and i think they are still a good idea. but i really dont want to get into a 3ring vs. lbars discussion.

maybe you should try to get a second harness, keep your eyes open, from time to time you can get really cheap stuff on the classifields here. (bought a airworthy harness for 150eur last year..)

my personal experience, on a treelanding with my gargoyle with 3rings, i was fumbling around for a long time to get that handle out there underneath the mlw to cut away....
so wear a good knife on all jumps...

take care!
hirschi

Thanks a lot everyone! I think I'll buy a standard 3ring rig and cut the harness ring off with boltcutters or a saw If on Lbars, Ill just stow the cable housing in a spandex pocket I'll sew on the rig. If on 3rings, I'll just put the removable harness ring on I guess this sums it up.
IvanTT

If you are ordering new you can just ask for it to be left off. If you're buying used, of course, then you'll have to resort to the bolt cutters.

84n4n4 wrote:

@greenmachine, i dont understand, one can order a
base rig with lbars at every major manufactor, i have
them on 3 of my rigs, and i think they are still a
good idea. but i really dont want to get into a 3ring
vs. lbars discussion.

I personally have integrated risers but also
have jumps using 3-rings (SKY & BASE) and
the only 3 times I ever jumped L-bars were
on my 3 tandem cutaways...

SO can you please sell me on the benefits
of using L-bars in general, in BASE, etc.
I am totally open and not looking to argue,
if there is a logic to its use I'd like to learn.

Thanks for the free education.

Why not get a harness with integrated risers AND a 3-ring 'ring'? OR you could make a set of risers and attach them to the 3-ring 'ring' permanently in the same fashion you would attach leg straps to an articulation ring.

I'm not sure I get you. The whole idea here was to have 1 rig that is cutaway-able on some jumps(3ring risers w/removable harness ring) and NOT cutaway-able on others(Lbar risers).

I think that the benefit of Lbar vs integrated is that you can easily replace them if some damage or wear occurs without having to rebuild the whole harness. Also, if you have multiple canopies(each having it's own set of risers) it's easier to change them by unscrewing the Lbar, than by unscrewing the ss links. But what do I know?

How many jumps will you be doing where there is absolutely nothing involved requiring a system that you can not cut away your canopy verses how many jumps will you do where a system that allows you to cut away your canopy in the event you find yourself in need of such a system?

I'm wondering if all of that re-rigging would be worth it?

hi!
im not a rigger, but here is what i think about the lbars vs. integrated discussion...

advantage of the lbar system is that, when damaged, the lbar risers can be replaced on the field, while on a integrated system you will need a sewing machine.
risers are a part of the harness that are prone for abrasion and damage, like from contact with hard velcro (the toggle keeper velcros, be it from stuffing your rig in a hurry on a illegal jump, or being just being sloppy) ive seen risers with noticable velcro damage
or the brakesetting loop that maybe wears out (on the last rig i bought used the loops are pretty used up, dont know if its just a high jump number on the risers or if there was misuse)
or damaged risers because of wrong brake settings. (seen that quit a few times...)
what i actually want to say is that the risers are most likely to look beaten up faster than the rest of the harness...

and another thing is that i think that lbar attachment leads to better force distribution on the mlw joint than integrated in case of an unstable deployment.
in base technical was a recent discussion about stiching patterns on mlw joints, there a quiet a few rigs out there that dont have a U or box stich around the WW (or whatever) stiching. if so one could possibly damage the mlw joint stiching when deploying on your back. (heard from a case where a skydive rig on a reserve deployment with such a box-less mlw stiching was damaged)
you wouldnt fall out of the harness but it could be damaged. deploying on your back isnt a good idea in base (or at all), but when something goes wrong, eg. when doing (or trying to do...) slider down aerials this could happen. like an overrotated gainer...

besides that if i would get myself a wingsuit rig, i would take the integrated version, less bulk, less wheight, less complexity...

I am honestly not sure if I was at one time
told the following years ago by someone who
is knowledgable or I just made it up in my
own head, but it kind of makes sense...

L-bars are used in situations where more
room is need to attached more lines and
preserve their proper orientation.

Connector links are used with moderate
loads, provide less but sufficient room,
when using lines that cascade.

first, this is BASE. people can do what they want.

now for some technical thoughts...
- you have posted twice about L-bars being used to attach lines. when used with suspension lines, the L-bar connectors link these lines to webbing (such as tandem risers). thus, why NOT use them to link webbing to webbing? this guy can even use stock risers. the only mod required is to cut the biggest ring and pass the L-bar through the loop of webbing.

- sharp corners concentrate stresses. loading risers at an angle to the MLW creates side loads. oval rapide connector links have no corners, will not concentrate stresses, and will tend to rotate to keep the forces in line with the long axis of the link. L-bars create a box profile with sharp corners. a similar side load risks pulling the lines into a sharp corner. the box nature of the link prevents it from rotating. thus it is possible to think the stresses can assymetrically load the components. does it matter? if this assymetrical loading created problems, I'm sure someone would be screaming by now. (think of the narrow slot the MLW passes through on the large ring of a standard 3-ring set-up.) L-bars also permit a cleaner looking configuration from tandem risers to reserve suspension lines. sometimes, thread is used to hold these lines in place, enabling quicker examination.

overall, this may NOT be a standard use of these tools. so? it seems like a viable concept. I may not be a fan of the added complexity, but I seriously doubt there is any structural issues when rigged correctly and inspected regularly.

I'll even give points for creatively re-purposing existing hardware!

Da, kinda like that. (from the Zak manual)

yes, lbars were used a lot on rounds where you have to put a lot of lines into a link. but i dont think using them to connect risers was first done by basejumpers, there are tandem rigs that have the reserve risers (also i think some drogue attachment) attached using lbars.

i still cant see the problem...

the material we use for making closing loops was originally used as sleeving for lines on round canopies, mesh wasnt invented to use it pilotchutes or even in a slider, rapid links are also used in some kill line systems for skydiving rigs, and same goes for velcro, it wasnt invented to close a container with.

and if the exact same ring is used for an rsl attachmet on a riser, a brake setting ring on the riser or as small ring of the 3ring, it wouldnt bother me as long as its tensile strenght keeps up with the load...

i think there are a lot of parts of your whole rig that were actually invented to do be used somewhere else (the exact same components).

point is, if it works, and lbars do the job, why not?

My first post was dismissive, because I took
it that a potential jumper without experience
wanted to modify gear to overcome a fear...

However, in general, I am not arguing for or
against anything. I have jumped 3-rings,
integrated, and L-bars - all three work fine.

I LOVE that BASE has no rules and know
there are many ways to do the same thing.
Really just wanted someone to articulate
the pros and cons of their choice.

Sorry if my input sounded like advice for
experience jumpers and riggers, it's not.

well, if you are getting the idea from a manual, I'll retract the comment of creativity!

Yep! Case closed, just trying to do my homework (still have time until 2012 when I'll move back to Canada LoL) And the idea was mine(the first one)

I think Jeronimo is the man for this kind of setup. He jumps L-bars (an option from most base gear manufacturers: can't be a bad idea technically speaking)
and was trying to figure how to turn it into a cut away system with a removable D-ring connector back in 2007.
He is an active member on the french base board.
By now I think he must have the answers for any possible problem in the whole setup philosophy.
(Which I can agree with if you really have a fear about 3rings failure, common among newbies. Can't buy that saving weight bullshit, neither back deploying with integrated risers make much sense for getting into the whole trouble. But it's your life and I'm not your mother!)

Good luck!