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Me and a mate were talking over the weekend and him and a few other blokes don't like to run line mod on slider down jumps anymore. The argument was a balance between the probability/consequence of a line over (mitigated with tailgate and WLOs) vs losing a toggle and having to land on rear(s) in tight, rocky landing areas with no outs.

This got me wondering if anyone has experienced or seen a line over when there was a tailgate (any known contributing factors would be good) or if any of the old and bolds can comment on what they've seen/heard over time.

Cheers

BJ

Point of the line mod is to take the force of the opening off of just the keeper and transfer it to the riser. Don't understand the coralation your mates are making...

He means packing slider off but routing the steering lines through the guide rings (like you would slider up).

Personally, I really like the way my canopy flies with the steering lines outside the guide rings, so I would prefer that when landing in a tight LZ. A lineover is still possible with a tailgate, I have seen one at the Perrine. however that was a very ugly unpacked jump, and it cleared itself after a few seconds.

I guess for me, I would rather just be careful not to drop a toggle!

seriously?

the point of the line mod, as he is referring to, is the complete system of running the lines outside of the slider gromets and the guide rings on the risers.

the correlation is between losing a toggle using the line mod versus, not losing a toggle when not using the mod.

I understood it as him still routingbthe lines outside the rings...makes more sense now

werd,

There is some good logic here, if that is what your object selection looks like. This idea originally spread through Australian jumpers when Jason Fitzherbert started this practice. He was jumping a low cliff with a very tight landing area and a longish canopy ride, and he felt that the risk of losing a toggle (and probably breaking a leg tryng to get into that landing area) was worse than the risk of a line-over he couldn't clear (the odds of which were very small, as he was using a tailgate).

I'd suggest evaluating this on a jump-by-jump basis, though. If you're jumping an object where this logic applies, then by all means consider it. But it makes no sense to then jump all slider down objects this way, especially when you take a trip to an object where this line of reasoning doesn't apply (for example, something with a good, wide opening grassy field for landing).





I know of three cases in which a (packed) tailgated canopy lined over.

One of those I am uncertain what the pack job looked like. One I know the pack job was probably bad (the jumper admitted he was a bit drunk while packing).

One of them, though, was a good jumper with a careful pack job, and I've got good video of the line over.

It's impossible to say for certain what happened there, but possibilities include a simple failure of the tailgate rubber band (i.e. it broke while in the pack tray before the jump ever took place), or perhaps the statistical 1 in a million line over with a tailgate. We will never know for sure.

What we do know, for sure, is that a well packed canopy with a properly closed tailgate has experienced a line over. Which means that we haven't "solved" the line over 100%. Knowing that just gives you another piece of data to consider when you make your decision about whether to use the line release modification in your specific situation.

Here in my area almost everybody stopped using line release mod (control lines routed outside) on slider down.

The simple reason is that there where many accidents (seen and herd of) beacuse of lost control lines and zero beacuse of lineovers with tailgates.

Another reason is also that this way is less work and less chance of missriging between slider down and slider up jumps.

Bor

Can you describe some of the accidents that happened on account of lost control lines?

- Jumper lost toggles on opening, on landing with risers stalled the canopy, result broken femur
- Other case, lost toggles, missing tight landing with no outs, landing in bolders. I dont remember the injuries, but he was sometime in hospital.
Others are similar stories.

i think that poor landing skill on risers does lead to some bad injuries... but it hurts my feelings to know that people don't prepare for that.

don't forget the importance of that skill if you are jumping the line release mod. that is my helpful reminder of the day.

i was recently reminded of that when a friend of mine lost both toggles on a tight, gnarly, rock-filled river bed LZ...

he fuckin' stuck it with a beautiful stand up landing on rears (including calmly sinking it into the LZ).

that's what i'm talking about! that's why i only like to jump with people that have skills, cuz i don't want to carry their broken asses out 5 miles.

When I started BASE, the ability to land downwind on risers into a broken landing area was considered pretty standard for anyone who wanted to BASE jump.

Over the years, the average skill level of jumpers overall has fallen substantially, as has the average level of preparation before starting BASE.

Jumpers need to make decisions that are appropriate to their skillset.

If someone hasn't developed the canopy skills to land on risers, keeping the toggles in the rings (and facing the very small risk of unclearable line over) might be a reasonable choice. I'd suggest that developing their canopy skills a bit more might be another option for them, but everyone is going to have to make their own decisions about what level of risk they personally find acceptable.

Dont stroke his ego too much, chuck. haha

he was losing toggles all the time that trip...almost as if he was doing it on purpose...fuckin show off

Best. Line. Ever.

For the record, unless he's changed, Robert Pecnick never used the line mod on slider down jumps as it alters the way the canopy flies. I always did, but I used to have more of a 50:50 mix of slider up and down.

I've seen someone drop a toggle - it was at the Go Fast event in Rotterdam, jumping from the Euromast (before they felled the trees!) Nothing came of it, apart from a bruised ego, but the tree didn't help. It wasn't just a case of whether the individual involved could land safely with 1 toggle and 1 rear; rather, as is quite often the case when this happens, there is little time to transition, let alone steer the canopy (and some can be quite unresponsive on rears, like my Troll) into the right area in which to attempt a flare - and I think it would be fair to say that contact with the tree was inevitable in that case.

I would hazard a guess that most jumpers who use the mod do so because that was the way they were taught, rather than apply any rational decision as to why they should / should not in the way that Tom has already described.

a. Why are they losing the controlines?
b. Why are they misrigging?
c. Why are they lazy?
Some should get a grip.

Take care,
space

a) Now nobody is losing control lines
b) Now nobody is misrigging
c) Its not laziness but K.I.S.S.
d) Nobody is getting lineovers with tailgate.
Yes, some should get a grip!

So according to your response, If a and b are sorted.why not use the LORM? By the responses, they still happen with a tailgate. Do they not jump with hookkniveves also?
Take care,
space

Because the LRM has created more problems than it solved; or maybe this will be clearer: I heard of much more troubles caused by lost toggles than I heard of solved lineovers (=zero, until this discussion).

As said, the idea behind this is: a and b are sorted with lines inside rings, and tailgate is solving the lineover 99.9999%.

Wow.

You've never heard of a save on the line release mod?

Dang....I feel really old now.

Did you had that ability as well or you were eager to jump regardless of the skill you had and test your luck?!


true and not true... what I see is that fluctuation of the people who starting and leaving BASE grow super fast. Knowing this, maybe you / we just expect to much from the jumpers , students or beginners.


Knowing what is said above by you or me ... do you think that all of them are actually prepared correctly to make such decisions? Maybe experienced jumper has to get involved more in decision process at the exit point.


Until the jumper realize that , he/she will probably crash his/her legs due to poor canopy skill and ''strange'' behavior of the canopy because the steering with lines outside of the rings are totally different than w steering lines inside of the rings...( something they never experianced in skydiving as they never jump such mod in skydiving)

Personally I have jumped w the steering lines outside maybe 10 times in my liofe and never liked. With proper tail gate settings the risk of line over is zero.

Students recently has much more trouble w canopy flying than openings or packing. Of course they have trouble as they mostly barely get idea how to fall stable and how to get back to DZ , and already they are base jumping...

Since 2006 I noticed that many many more jumpers follows the steering inside the rings method...
and I think that is good.

Interesting statement.
I've never lost a toggle, and have cleared a line over with the LRM. Your statement states that there has been 9 million jumps with TG and only one LO. Hmmmm. If you could be a little more realistic you would maybe get some credibility.
A simple check of one's canopy may shed some light on this matter. look for line burns on the trailing edge. This will show an indication of line overs.
Maybe you and Robi want to dumb down BASE instruction, which may be good for the " just wanna try it" crowd.
I would never jump without the LRM SD. With or without the TG. My hookknife tends to be a little slower than throwing away the toggles I've never lost because I knew how to do simple rigging.
Take care,
space

hello Tracy,

I never said that LRM is bad. I have them on my canopies, all of them... In contrary, I designed one type of them which JNO finalized and pushed all the way to market through his company.

What I said is that I don't really believe in slider down jumping with steering lines outside of the guiding rings... I saw more bad landings and tree hits due to lines out side of the ring than line over of any kind...
I don't care what 9 millions people think about it , but there was so many cases which were comment as: bad, stupid, foolish or dangerous in BASE jumping and now are standard ( Light canopies, spectra lines, lines inside of the rings,etc )

Please, next time check first what I said.
To power my statement...
I know few of the best slider down jumpers from OZ and Germany who does not change the line mod any more since 2006 after we discussed this matter at Garage jumping contest in Berlin....
BASE jumping is far away from rocket science and some statements always seems to be super funny to me...Statements with no real prove, but with no right to doubt in them as they are written in stone.

Yes I think that proper installation of tail gate prevent the line over to the maximum as well as the double rubber band installed on both ''C' line loop which holds all the steering lines and all ''D'' lines inside the canopy together with slider.on the slider up jumps.
regards

 
I think the only danger with promoting SD without LRM is that jumpers will never bother to get skills to fly LRM. It's fine up until a lineover occurs, then the outcome is worse.

I had a line over while using a tail gate. I was able to clear the line over and keep the toggle because of the extra slack afforded by routing the lines outside the guide rings. I think the line over was a result of line dump from worn velcro on the tail pocket.

Adam Lanes, BACK IN THE DAYZ!

Not sure how line dump would give you a line over; tension knots definitely... although I'm happy to be enlightened/corrected!

I suppose for instance a slack line can be blown over the canopy due to the relative wind, especially at longer delays. I took approximately 3.5 seconds delay on that particular jump. I opened with a 90 left, got on my toggles and corrected the heading. When I put the canopy back into full flight, I noticed my canopy was turning to the left. That is when I looked up to find my left control line making a bow tie out of my canopy. After immediately assessing the situation, I determined to attempt to clear the line over with a single pump/whip motion before ditching the control line, and it worked. I've talked to master riggers, manufacturers, and read it in owners manuals that say line dump can lead to line overs. That is my best guess as to what caused my line over since my packjob was the same neat packjob that I always do, and I specifically remember putting on the tailgate on that jump. Sometimes you can do everything right though, and shit can still go wrong. Since then I have gone through 2 velcro changes on my tailpocket :)

no tailgates have not 'solved" the line over, but proper use of them has certainly mitigated the likelihood of potential line overs.

careful packing
Tailgates
stable deployments

will "solve" line overs

be safe

Craig

Cheers everyone for the input! And for keeping the thread amazingly on topic It's been ages since I've had a chance to get on here so it was an interesting read going through everyone's replies and stories.

Seeing a couple people sounded like they wanted to go for the bait, there was a lot of tongue in cheek with the title and no, I'm not looking for a solution that applies to every jump.

On a bit of a tangent, Tom, Space and Robi, you got me thinking with your comments about new jumpers and skill levels (rigging and canopy piloting). I've seen how someone can easily lose their toggles from misrigging and/or fumbling on opening and I also remember it taking me a while to get used to the longer control stroke with my lines outside the rings.

So, seeing human error/lack of skill is arguably more likely to introduce problems that will be amplified with the control lines outside the rings, would it be overly heretic to suggest that maybe LRM is a more "advanced" technique and maybe not something that students should be getting taught first up or alternatively, should it be an encouraged (or standard?) practice to expose students to both techniques during an FJC?

I personally jump without LRM but all of the persons I've taught to base jump I have taught to pack with the line mod. I have also explained them why I personally jump without and told them to do their own decision once they have some experience. I still feel that the LRM is considered as "industry standard" technique and it is important technique to know for each jumper so that's why I teach it to people (even I personally for myself consider it obsolete). After gaining some experience they can to do their own decision (like with any other choice in this sport) if they continue to use it or not. Also I feel that the student jumps should be conducted from objects where the landing area allows room for the "human error" due to different steering feeling with LRM and/or potentially lost toggle.

I strongly feel that on FJC student should see the both sides of the coin and they should make up their own decision if to use it or not. At the end of the day, that's what BASE ultimately is all about, make up your own decisions and live with the consequences.

"the double rubber band installed on both ''C' line loop which holds all the steering lines and all ''D'' lines inside the canopy together with slider.on the slider up jumps"

Sorry Robert but I am not sure I've got it correctly.. Is this similar to a method runnit have described earlier?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...ource=www.google.com
Do you have any pictures please..
Thanks

I have an old school friend, BASE 175, who never had a line over when jumping slider down prior to the discovery of the tailgate. He did something he called "packing the tail into itself" that he learned from BASE 74. When I met him, he had 120 slider down jumps. Funny thing was that he also never had an off-heading opening.

Any idea if he continued to use it once tailgates became popular and how his success rate continued? Can you elaborate on how he did it?

Do you think it could be a technique useful in conjunction with a tailgate or would the tailgate just make it redundant micro reefing somehow?

I'd have to put some pictures on here. He did a flat pack (not a flat pro pack) by the way. He has never used the tail gate. I see nothing wrong with adding a tail gate to the packing system he was using.

Cool. If it's at all possible and not a pain in the arse, I'm real curious to see what happens with the tail.

I'm using that kind of packing as well. Not sure if it's the same but..

Basically when you've done the three side folds on each side, you have to fold each side in half to make the packjob fit into the container. Some people do separate fold for each of the 3 side folds, some fold the 3 folds alltogether in half on each side etc.

What I do before is flaking the tail on top of the (still large) packjob. Then i 8-fold the lines into the tailpocket. In the end, I half-fold each side towards the center, grabbing all 3 side folds AND the flaked tail, over the packjob. The tailpocket, as well as all the trailing edge, is in the center of the packjob (thickwise).

The idea behind that (besides i'm lazy and it's easier) is that one of the factor improving heading and reducing lineovers occurence, being it SL up or down, is the "Nose-First-Inflation".

In the ideal case, you want your canopy to deploy laterally first at the leading edge, center first (so rolling the leading edge is a good idea as well), then the rest of the canopy follows it keeping the already defined axis. The tailgate is promoting this while keeping the tail alltogether while the leading edge expands on prior phases of deployement.

The worst case for lineovers is when the tail begins to partially inflate before all the rest of the canopy has properly expanded and tensioned all the lines on the way. That's where the idea of rolling or burying the tail in the center of the packjob makes sense..

Now one of the factors inducing offheadings is when one side of the canopy inflates before the other one. Especially the outer cells. But usually if the center is already inflated in the proper axis, the canopy tends to keep it. Rolling the nose tightly and having a huge open center cell, as well as packing the front linegroups a little bit wider than the other ones will drastically promotes a nose-first-center-first inflation.

I've slightly improved my heading with this kind of packing - but there might be other factors playing as well.

I also always use direct control SL up and whatever kind of tail restriction method (either like the slider around the brakelines explained on this thread or a slidergate).

I think it's the tail bury-wrap around method Miles uses.
Some pictures from blincmagazine kindly offered by "hamsandwich"(thank you!)





______________________________________________
double rubber band installed on both ''C' line loop which holds all the steering lines and all ''D'' lines inside the canopy together with slider.on the slider up jumps
????????????
AND
slider around the brakelines explained????????

Sorry but I have a terrible headache trying to understand those two statements without any picture ....
Any help?
Please...

Cheers. I was guessing along the same lines (assuming we're all thinking the same thing as 460 is...) I was shown that method a couple years ago by Shane Dunn and have been using it ever since.

This is the same method that Marty Tilley has been using for years. To my knowledge, he was the first person to do it, sometime in the 90's.

Sorry, not pictures right now but ..
Theres now a lot of variation of tail-inflation restricting
setups the most commons are:

SL down:
- Tailgate : almost universal

SL up:

- Slidergate : a tailgate fixed to the trailing edge center of the slider (same usage than the tailgate, but usually only with the upper brakelines, the 4 center lines stay free)

- or a simple rubberband fixed to a loop on the center of the slider's trailing edge (in order to make a stow with the brakelines)

- or taking two big pinch of the slider's mesh (exactly like for the direct control) and making a "tailgate" with it. Then, all the brakelines go between the two pinches, and a rubberband keep it closed like if it was a tailgate

- or the variation of this method described earlier, which is a mix between a tailgate and a direct control. let's call it the slider-control-gate http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...ource=www.google.com

Thanks a lot mate!!!
When you need answers praying is not efficient ... just ask Lucifer (luci: latin for light; fero: greek for bear; light=knowledge; ...lucifer= knowledge bearer) hope it won't cost me my soul

What do you know, that's my old parachute. It's been around.

Martin Tilley developed that Pack Job. I have been packing that way since 2000. It's also the same as in Jesse Hall's packing video.

With very minor differences, that's how I pack my reserves.

So...It's a small, small (base jumping) world !

Well if that's such a well known-tested packing method how about putting it in the articles section by someone who knows the background of it along with any benefits or drawbacks, so it won't be lost among thousands of posts within a year???

good idea. here's an article proposal, basically a quick resume that an admin can cut n paste to the article section. If anyone wants to modify / add correction to my random english / add any other information, please do it !





PACKING


The Tail-Bury wrap around method "TB-pack"




Introduction :

The "TB-pack" is an improvement of the classic base PRO-pack method. It has been developed to increase the reliability on opening by reducing the likelihood of lineovers as well as improving on-heading performance. This packing method is usable for both SL-up and SL-down/off jumps.

The idea behind the Tail-Bury method is that one of the factor improving heading and reducing lineovers occurence, being it SL up or down, is the "Nose-First-Inflation".

In the ideal case, you want your canopy to deploy laterally first at the leading edge, center first (so rolling the leading edge is a good idea as well), then the rest of the canopy follows it keeping the already defined axis. The tailgate is promoting this while keeping the tail alltogether while the leading edge expands on prior phases of deployement.

The worst case for lineovers is when the tail begins to partially inflate before all the rest of the canopy has properly expanded and tensioned all the lines on the way. That's where the idea of rolling or burying the tail in the center of the packjob makes sense..

Now one of the factors inducing offheadings is when one side of the canopy inflates before the other one. Especially the outer cells. But usually if the center is already inflated in the proper axis, the canopy tends to keep it. Rolling the nose tightly and having a huge open center cell, as well as packing the front linegroups a little bit wider than the other ones will drastically promotes a nose-first-center-first inflation.



HOW TO :

A. Start by a classic PRO-pack.
B. Prepare the leading edge openings as usual (sides rolled / wide-open center cell) and do the 3 side-folds as usual, but don't fold them in half towards the center. The packjob is still "large" (2x times larger than the container)
C. Set your direct-control if you use it.
D. Set a Tail-Restriction setup (tailgate, slidergate or similar methods)
E. Flake the tail on your still "large" packjob (fig.1)
F. Make two 45° folds on the bottom of the canopy, with all the 3 side-folds alltogether (fig.2)
G. Place the tailpocket correctly, adjusting it to the bottom of the packjob (so it just covers the slider when packing slider-up)(fig.3)
H. Stow you lines as usual (you can do it later as well but it's easier to do it now)
I. On each side, grab all 3 side-folds AND the flaked tail. Fold all that alltogether towards the center in half. (fig.4)
J. Fit your packjob into the container



Pro's :

- Reduce the occurence of lineovers
- Improves heading
- Faster and easier to pack



Con's :

- None reported yet



Facts / History :

Martin Tilley developed this method sometime in the 90's.

460 reports "I have an old school friend, BASE 175, who never had a line over when jumping slider down prior to the discovery of the tailgate. He did something he called "packing the tail into itself" that he learned from BASE 74. When I met him, he had 120 slider down jumps. Funny thing was that he also never had an off-heading opening."

Some other jumpers ended by doing the same method on their side while trying to improve the classic-method, and had the same conclusion about the effects of it on opening.

Nowadays, it seems to be an improvement of the classic PRO-pack. The use of a tail-restricting setup is still strongly recommended and present only benefits on staging the opening.



Other aspects :

There's a discussion about the dangers of using the LRM (lines routed outside of the grommets) when jumpind SL-down VS the pro's of LRM (ability to deal with a lineovers)

There's been accidents where people lost a toggle after a normal openings because of the LRM and had to land a canopy with rear risers. Whatever the skill level, it's always easier and safer to land with both brakes!

Given that
a) we now have some good models of LRT (line-release-toggles) on the market
b) with the tailgate and a proper packing, the likelihood of lineovers are near zero
then more and more people stop using the LRM on SL-down jumpe because they feel that it's overall safer (note that this might not apply to every jump).

You know that you can upload the article, right? You don't need an admin to do it for you. The articles basically work like a wiki--anyone can upload an article or edit an article, and the admin just has to approve changes.

nice, just did it, thanx!

http://www.basejumper.com/...illey_Fold__896.html
Beautiful!!! Good job. Thank you!

Thanks for the article. I think I'll try this packjob out.

Nice work. Appreciate the effort to share.

A UK jumper had one this weekend. I was not there but the facts from his hospital bed are.
320ish ft hand held FF resulting in a line over. Packed using a tailgate & primary stow, regular pack job on a borrowed mojo in his container. had line mod but either didn't have time or didn't chuck toggles. spiralled in resulting in both femurs smashed just above the knee and a bad tib/fib break on his right leg.
Don't really know much else.
We had light winds all over the UK and he is a very conservative jumper so I will speculate weather/wind was not a factor.

Laters

Julian

"Over the years, the average skill level of jumpers overall has fallen substantially"

Getting old, are we...?