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I've been checking out this B for a long time now, I want to start getting myself ready for the technicalities of this B so that i can jump it in the future.

Its 136ft high, the landing area is 100ft X 100ft, but on the other side of the LZ is a 8 story drop.
There is no place to setup a SL on the exit point, and I do not own a direct bag.

Would an unpacked jump like a McConkey be advisable for these conditions?

A 136' rollover is NOT advisable!! (((ker-thump!!)) A TARD could be done successfully by someone experienced doing them from solid objects at low altitude. I say get yourself a dbag.

Why not--what could go wrong?

The jump you describe leaves no safety margin whatsoever. Is it really that important to you?

My lowest was from about 125 ft. using a direct bag. Why are you apparently unwilling to buy or make one?

Is there no security at this building whom you can have PCA you? My lowest jump was a McConkey from 150', and I would not do that again. Depending on the landing area, 136' may be high enough for a well executed tard, but the heading performance of a tard is not acceptable IMO off a solid object. What if you ran some cables from the roof to the far side of the LZ, that might make you feel more comfortable .

Use a direct bag.

Ive done a tard from about 115-120, it worked fine, but it was a larger landing area. A vented canopy will make a big difference from that height. Id also say no to a rollover, the canopy is already hanging down, and begins moving down as soon as you jump losing more altitude, and then still has to swing over. A tard over is somewhere in between and will give you a little more separation. Tardovers are my go to for building and cliff unpacked jumps for that reason.

Thank you to everyone for the answers. Yet another post showing this site can be a place of learning and info.

I will invest in a direct bag and go for that route, I'll test it out on a more forgiving object and get the necessary skills to pull it off without incident.

 

Off topic, but I remember Space telling me back in the day that he once used a pair of cutoff jeans as a D-bag. He put the rubber bands on the belt loops.

Back on topic.
There used to be a lot of debate about DBs vs. freefall, with the purists claiming that a DB was not a true BASE jump. Personally, I always considered the DB to be a great tool for the really low stuff because it gives a fast, reliable deployment and enables your bag holder to control the direction of the deployment.

One of the arguments against DBs at the time was that assisted deployments (e.g., DBs and PCAs) were a crutch and an indication that the jumper did not trust his gear enough to do a low freefall. The reasoning went that if a jumper mistrusted his gear then he should not be jumping it.

I never bought into that because I consider the truly low stuff to be in a class all by itself and when distances as small as 20 ft. become a significant portion of deployment distance then assisted deployments--especially DBs--give a great level of reliability.

When testing out your DB at more forgiving sites, I highly recommend finding a way to accurately estimate deployment distance, descent rate under canopy, and distance flown under canopy. You'll need to know that to do a good assessment of your B before jumping it.

Best of luck.

Slightly off topic as well, but didn't "3, 2, 1...see ya" originate from DBagging to let your bag holder know when you were going to jump?

That's a great question! I have no clue--I was taught the 3-2-1-CYA in 1988 as a sort of good luck charm but it worked great for bag holders.

There are some jumpers with seriously low BASE numbers here. Maybe one of them can answer.

When I investigated the origins of the count, the first person I could find to have used it was Randy Harrison, at an early bridge day event, on a freefall jump.

Randy Harrison, BASE 36.

How far from the B is the LZ? Is there anywhere to tie off a piece of climbing tape/webbing as rigging for a S/L? Even if you use a direct bag, you'll want to back it up somehow, especially if you get that security guard to hold it. But a d-bag is the route I would go. We used one in Kenya from 104 ft...no probs, with time to flare. And heading performance is great, I absolutely love how they stage the opening so perfectly. As far as tards go, I've done 120ft multiple times, but like others have said, you want to be well-practiced on these from more forgiving objects first. And a rollover would be a bit too spicy for me. :) Never done below 150, and that was with a very forgiving landing, and certain techniques I'd been practicing on higher jumps. I get higher openings from McConkeys than tard-overs, but neither one is a good idea for your B.
Got pics? Sounds interesting.

I'm heading to the B today, I'm gonna to take some pictures of the site but I won't be able to get onto the roof today.

PM me your e-mail addresses if you are interested in seeing the B and can help me and I will send pictures of the B to you

"... no probs" Really?

As much as I hate to say it Jordan is actually quite talented so it was no problem for him but for me it was.......... well lets just say it was intense.

I've used a "D" bag a couple of times, once from a "B" and once from an "S". Clearly not enough data to develop a trend but I personally found the "D" bag to be very smooth. There was no discernible drop then sudden stop; rather it was like stepping off into an open canopy.

I have since seen vids of Jules and others doing 100ft PCA’s over solid ground with minimal or no flare so a “D” bag is not a must but for my first sub 150ft jump a “D” bag gave me peace of mind.

Perhaps I should try to send mine to you?

Apologies for the FUBAR editing job, I just don't want the B to be recognizable .

Here she is. I tried to get onto the roof, but it looks like they have added a cheap Chinese lock on the door. Nothing unpickable though.

These are taken with a wide angle lens, the landing area looks out of proportion, but it is definitely smaller than the height of the B.

I will edit these pictures out at a later stage.

You mentioned that the LZ was small and there is a big drop off at the end of the LZ.

I have never done anything that low over solid ground, but I cant see you out flying the LZ from an object that is that low, you are going to be in deep brakes....

just a thought

IMO 135' - 75' of opening sage leaves 60' till impact ....
now take away your push off distance from your landing zone.... how far can you fly in 60' and how hard are you prepared to land

Provided you get your canopy open and flying
quick enough, any way to fly beyond the drop
off and land in the lower area? What is the
land like down there? Just a thought case
the visuals and video would be awesome.

Just based on these photos, my first thought would be to DB from the left hand (in the photo, i.e. jumper's right) corner of the building. looks like a few pieces of metal up there to back up your D bag with. Then a nice left turn, and you have the entire diagonal of the parking lot as a runway, with room to sink it in if you need. I'd just be really heads up on the potential for outs in the event of an off heading, of course. Another cool thing to try would be to pace off the landing area, get some orange flagging or something, and mock it up at one of your local A's by just marking where the corners would be, then climbing up to the correct height and practicing with the d-bag, S/L, or whatever deployment method you decide to use. Then you could have your flight path completely dialed before you try it on the B. Just a thought. Good luck!

http://www.basejumper.com/...e_with_DBag_435.html

Um...good luck. May your health insurance premiums be paid and everything go exactly as planned. The number of people experienced at doing TARD's off of solid objects is a difficult number to quantify.

Does the roof have a handrail (or any other sort of rail) around the edge?

Do you have the ability to repeatedly access the building, so you can jump multiple times (and work down to lower openings with each jump)?

Thanks again everyone, your help is greatly appreciated.

@Jordan, I think that is exactly what I will go for. Setup on the right, get the bag holder to give me a +-35deg left opening and fly diagonally across the LZ. Possible outs have been checked out.

@Tom, This jump will be a once off and I do not have constant access. There is no hand rail at the top either. I will take a length of rope with so I can attach the direct bag to a solid point on the B as a failsafe.

@John, Thanks for the offer John, but I need to get my own direct bag, there are lots of nice low B's here that can be jumped with a direct bag. When are you coming back for a visit? I'm pretty sure your blood stains are still on that rock at the bridge

Let the training begin, I only plan on jumping this in 6months time, so I will let you guys know how it goes then.

A 136 B put me out of action for 5 months and a lot of pain since, hell it hurts right now typing this. Fucking sucked.

If you dont think you can 100% pull it off its simply not worth the risk. I highly highly doubt you will out fly the LZ with an SL but you also wont have much time to do anything but pop toggles and flare. Might even be worth using rears and a good PLF. So many variables.

Vents, shallow brakes and body position are critical as far as im concerned.

Good luck buddy, i made my first jump back this morning after that injury (Solo 192ft tower i had never jumped before with 40ft pines below it i had to fly over. It felt so good...)

Shallow brakes? No wonder you got hurt....:)

Please explain?

afaik deep low jumps need shallow brakes... is something changed?

I have done a few low jumps including 104ft and 150ft and have used deep brake settings because I reasoned that deep brakes would mitigate deployment surge.

Please guide me on the reasoning for shallow brakes when deploying low.

John

I can't guide you to nothing but this link: http://www.basejumper.com/...ke_Settings_682.html

Wwarped or Tom,

Can you assist please:

BASE Jumping : Error
Error

Oops, we had the following problem:

Category 'Articles/Packing/Brake Settings 682.htm' does not exist.

Here's the original: Brake Settings - BASE Wiki

SpeedPhreak - Thanks & what do you make of this?

"Shallow brakes are used for slider up jumps and (by some jumpers) for specialized, very low slider-down jumps"

Why use shallows for low jumps?

John

I am unsure of this, the only rationale I can come up with is that with that low a jump you might want the increased forward speed on opening a shallow brake setting would give you in order to convert it to greater flare power. Deep brakes may be less critical because from that height, even with a 180, you are pretty much on the ground by the time you fly back into the object.

You do know those articles were on BASEjumper.com before they were put up on BLiNC, right?

The original was on Jaap's site, which is no longer up.

Tom,

Kindly straighten me out here.

Why is it sometime preferable to use shallows on a low, low jump?

Thanks in advance,

John

Are you still getting this error, John? The link seems to work for me.

So that if you don't have time to get the toggles off, your riser flare is stronger (as the canopy has more forward speed at opening).

There are a very limited number of cases in which that would apply and this is not one of them. That line was written in that article based on some experiences doing ultra low freefall jumps, primarily from spans.

Back when those articles were being written and edited on Jaap's BASE Wiki, I remember talking to him specifically about this issue. I'm not sure who wrote that final line--Jaap did most of the writing, but the Cooper brothers and I were fairly active editing those articles.

During that discussion, we talked about a two low spans in particular on the western side of North America (one in Canada and one in the USA). I have never jumped the Canadian one, but the one in the States is 156' with open grassy landing in almost every direction. When we (myself and two other jumpers, neither of whom were involved with the BASE wiki project) had done some repeated freefalls from that bridge, we had used shallow brake settings because (a) there was no object to strike, and (b) the opening altitude was inconsistent enough that we would sometimes have to flare on risers. Since it was the "worst case", our plan was to flare on the risers--we took a toggle flare as a stroke of good luck, although we did get those from time to time.

Note that when two of us did freefall jumps from a slightly higher solid object, we continued to use shallow brake settings. We decided that it was worth the trade off to get a better flare on risers, and knew full well that it would mean either object strike or stalling into the big boulder at the bottom if we had a serious off heading.

On the jump in question here (136' static line) I would prefer deep brake settings.

I have done three jumps off of the bridge in question...the one in Canada. This has been done over the last three weekends...This bridge is approximately 160' in height from launch to landing. (Some have said 165'...) I have been packing in shallow brakes for this jump as this is what I was led to believe. On one of the weekends in question another jumper jumped in deep brakes and required a real decent plf...thankfully it is into snow at the moment. I recently posted my jump from that same day...can someone tell me affirmatively whether or not I am packing in the correct brake configuration. Object strike is minimal though not impossible as I watched a 90 last weekend and the support was getting close on his jump though he definately reacted in a timely fashion and got it turned. I did not ask him how he was packed but would assume deep brakes, I will try and confirm that.

Thanks in advance for any input, if you want to see the vid for analysis it can be viewed on this site.

I would pack in shallow brakes to freefall that bridge, and deep brakes to static line it.

Note that the terms "deep brakes" and "shallow brakes" can be misleading. If you haven't customized your settings to your body weight then what you really have are "deeper brakes" and "shallower brakes." Regardless, if you are using the factory brake settings, I'd still go deep to static line or shallow to freefall on that object.

Oops...definately been static lining it and have been using the shallow brake settings. These have not been entirely customized to me but the guy I bought the canopy off of weighs within five pounds of my weight (lighter) and he spent some time at the potatoe customizing the settings.

Mayhaps I will try the deep setting this coming weekend and see how the results are...

Thanks for your input Tom.

When freefalling 156' did you use any low FF specific gear (modified canopy, shorter bridle, 52" PC)? What PC technique did you use, upwards throw or "pre inflation"? What canopy sizes and models? Taken from your other comment ("the opening altitude was inconsistent enough that we would sometimes have to flare on risers") I assume that on some jumps you were able to get enough canopy time to get proper flare with toggles. That sounds pretty awesome from that height, any video available?

We tried shorter bridles a little, but mostly it was standard length bridles. At the time, you could find "shorter" pin bridles because there were still a fair number of original pin bridles floating around. The manufacturer had made these by simply taking standard 9' (velcro rig) bridles and sewing the pins to them, so the distance from the pin to the PC was reduced by whatever distance the manufacturer allowed for the pins. We also used spectra closing loops or "napkin primed" velcro (velcro rig with a paper napkin obscuring most of the velcro surface).




Both. We started with upward throw, and then moved to pre-inflation. I learned that technique from Dwain, who told me that Nick Feteris had taught it to him, and that Nick had been using it with skydiving gear in the 80's to do freefalls in the 200'-300' range.




Blackjack 280 (it was the very first production BJ, which ought to give you an idea how long ago this was), FOX Vtec (no covers) 265, Flik 242 Vtec (covers, but I don't think it was the form they have now--there were several variations on the way there and one of the jumpers was a test jumper for BR) and even (for one rather silly jumper) an old Mojo 280, if memory serves.


Yes, but it was more the exception than the rule. Most of the time it was "grab the risers to flare as you PLF" kind of stuff.



Nope. This was close to 10 years ago. I might have some video somewhere in a closet on mini-DV, but nothing that is easily accessible. Back in the olden-days, we hadn't learned to video every jump for youtube. Plus the (USA) bridge was in the middlle of town and right next to a police station, so the jumps were done at night as stealthily as possible.

I jumped a 122' S, nil wind with a troll 265. It was a PCA with a full 4 seconds from step off to landing. Landing was stood up with a full flare. Horizontal distance from exit point to landing area estimated at 5m max..I remember looking up and thinking 'fuck me, I went no where!'

".I remember looking up and thinking 'fuck me, I went no where!"
Priceless :o)

Here's a 125ft TARD (at 4:00)

http://www.basejumper.com/...ll_Antennas_550.html

John,
Had an email conversation with Tom about this. I just want to clarify my own point:

On most low jumps, shallow brakes would not be the best choice.

Here are my reasons:

1.) On no-slider jumps, deep brakes (when properly adjusted for the individual) trim the canopy to open in slow forward flight, effectively giving more time to make heading correction and setup landing. (critical on jumps with less altitude than normal)
2.) Properly adjusted control lines promote faster, more even pressurization/inflation of the canopy. (This being achieved in the deep-brake setting with no slider)
3.) A well executed jump, with a current jumper on familiar gear, should almost always allow time to grab toggles. Once toggles are being used, the canopy is flying efficiently, and with the most control available.

*That being said, I understand that the jumps Tom was referring to (correct me if I'm wrong here) were very specific free-fall jumps where the jumpers felt that toggles were not going to be reached in time on every landing. Because of this, they chose to go with the shallow setting in order to get a more favorable 'flare' on rear risers.
In this instance, they had a very specific reason for using this configuration.
What I don't like is the fact that other less-informed jumpers are citing this example, and arguing that shallow brakes should be used on all low jumps. This just isn't true. Newer jumpers should be careful with the information they learn on these forums, because it is very easy to take things out of context.
Another note: anyone who spends some time playing around with rear-riser landings will find out how touchy they can be on a base canopy. I know that on my setup, the difference between flattening out my glide angle, and completely stalling my canopy, is very short (a few inches). This should be considered for those that might opt for riser-only landings. While the shallow-brake setting will definitely mitigate the tendency to stall so quickly, my opinion is that if you have time to grab risers, then you probably have time to grab toggles for use as your primary controls. That is, assuming that you are jumping within your capabilities, on gear you are very familiar with, from a height you are comfortable jumping.

I agree 110%.

I have several sub 110ft jumps and ALWAYS got my toggles off. I have around 20 sub 140ft B's and always got my toggles off and even had time to make a slight turn to set up for landing. (either SL or PCA's)
If you cannot get your toggles off from a 130ft SL/PCA, 100% of the time, then in my opinion you have no business base jumping and even less right to be on a low object. If you cannot manage that then you will never be fast enough to turn a 180 off any SD object.

With a good PCA or SL from 135ft you should have a good 5-6 seconds under canopy.

To generally add (not directed at jools--just the last post in the thread):

When you are popping the toggles at very low altitudes, you need to be especially aware of your altitude, because the act of popping the toggles can surge the canopy both forward and down (along it's normal glide path).

When popping the toggles in this situation, it's important to pull them down and hold them there, then gradually let them back up, being prepared to flare at any point. You may find that you are flaring from half brakes because the toggles don't make it all the way back to full flight before you are at the ground.

The key to doing very low freefall jumps (and most other jumps) is gradualism and repetition. Start at a higher altitude and slowly work down so that you are comfortable (and accustomed to) what is happening, and the speed at which it is happening.

A great way to practice a low jump is from an antenna, because you can stop at any altitude you wish. If you know the B you are training for is 136', jump an antenna from 200' and see how it feels. Do that 10 times, then go from 180'. Do that ten times, and move to 160'....and so forth. I even know some guys who were anal enough (and had a good enough practice antenna) that they measured out the landing area and then marked the corners and obstacles with cones to practice for it. That sort of thing might help the original poster to be a lot better prepared when he goes to jump this building.

So not entirely sure if you were directing that statement about newer inexperienced jumpers citing examples as fact...

What I will say is if you read my post I ASKED a question...didn't cite anything in fact. I clearly stated that "I was led to believe", not at all stating things as fact, as I will be the first to admit I have very low experience when it comes to BASE. Low experience does not equal stupidity just to be clear about that, I personally do more than just read on a forum for all of the information I use when making a jump. I also asked a very experienced jumper my question and clearly posted that I was perhaps NOT jumping the ideal configuration for that situation.

Just trying to clear that up...maybe you misread my post if you were referring to me.

No, not at all! Just referring to newer jumpers in general, and the phenomenon of taking forum advice as gospel, without questioning the context. As I recall, you were asking an intelligent question about some advice you had been led to believe (that shallow brakes are the appropriate choice on low jumps) and hopefully your question got you some answers, opinions, and some different sets of logic to chose from. A good use of these forums. My criticism was not about your question at all, but about the people who don't question enough. Hope that clears things up. :) By the way, I still have a lot to learn myself; I just have a ridiculously inquisitive nature, ergo the inability to shut-up sometimes. The minute you stop learning is a good time to quit BASE.

I may have only been jumping for less than a year, but I think this is the most accurate statement I've ever heard about BASE...

As Sean said...probably one of the best statements I have read as well! I too am quite inquisitive by nature and like to learn as much as possible on any topic with BASE being an extremely important example. I appreciate all of the input as it does help to make a more informed decision when it comes to jumping...especially being one of those inexperienced guys.

Thanks again for all the input on this most important subject.

Bump - Just an update on my progress at this object.

I've been working on this B since I originally made the post in Feb.

I have monitored the security guards behavior and I am aware of their positions throughout the day. I picked several locks in the building to gain access to stairwells, lifts and fire escapes.

I now have constant access to the roof via two different stair wells, I have also planned multiple escape routes for the direct bag holder.

since the B is on my college campus I have also picked the lock to the shitter on the 5th floor, this makes taking dumps during lunch time much more pleasant since I can avoid the crappy public toilets that everyone else uses

I can almost taste the jump, it feels so close now.

Time to start training on a more forgiving object.

I've been very patient with this Building, I put in the time, research and effort, and it all paid off Man that feels good!
I finally jumped the damn thing

I got up there and ranged the B in at 159ft, so I setup a static line system which was perfect for the height.

No guards saw us, we left everything "as is" so no signs of entry or us every being there. The whole jump happened very fast, but it was an awesome experience and definitely worth it.

Thank you to everyone who gave me solid advice, it's much appreciated

cYa
Dan

first, congrats!

second, 159ft, not 136? that can be a significant difference. do you think the set-up would have worked from the lower altitude? (if yes, that means you had an enhanced margin of safety.)

Yup I really cocked that one up 23ft out is pretty severe.

But no, I wouldn't static line it from 136ft on this particular object. The margin for error was well calculated and just a tiny bit excessive, but since it's my first time doing a jump like this, I am super happy how everything turned out.

My built in margin for error came into play and I had to land in the alternate landing area, so I'm glad I had planned it well.

Two of us jumped, and the other jumper had a successful and uneventful jump.

Yeah! Nice work. So good when all that planning finally pays off... Well done!
-JK