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If we could sit down with the NPS and discuss our grievances openly, what would you talk about, clarify, demand etc.
What are the issues? What would you propose to rectify the poor relations currently in place? Please be specific and thorough.

I am working on a project and would like your input to see if I have missed anything.

thanks
570

If you have any references to court cases, that would be helpful too.

Gosh, where to begin.....

What kind of project are you working on?

FYI: A few years ago, I set up a meeting with the head honchos at Yosemite. We were supposed to meet during their next visit to WashDC to discuss the state of BASE jumping in the park and what could change to make it legal. After waiting several months, Yosemite NPS wouldn't respond to email requests.

I have met numerous times with the New River Gorge rangers and superintendents in attempts to improve relations as well. Not sure how to change their minds because the systematic decades-long denials appear to be the norm. But, I'm all for working with them and continuing to talk to improve relations.

Personally, I don't think one poor man can change much with respect to BASE in our National Parks. However, one rich man or a thousand angry jumpers could change everything. BASE jumpers only rally a little when someone dies or gets tasered and that's usually a temporary fight.....

they also rally if they get a ticket for an open container, such as leaving the Holiday Inn in the dust.

The only logical arguement I can think
is along the line of equal rights, using
the 14th amendment, 1964 civil rights
act, and the 1990 ADA as references.

WE are citizens, tax payers, voters,
and as such deserve equal access to
the commonly owned public good.

Tree's point about their perverse use
of Aerial Delivery is valid, seems a very
talented lawyer with a large budget could
challenge that precedent.

Sadly, rules & laws often fail to follow logic
so all of the above is probably just wishful
thinking and mental masturbation... but
thank you for your efforts and good luck!

The only issue that really got my dander up is when they tazed Ammon. By all accounts, he was standing there, not attempting to escape. Lets remember that this is a permitable activity, they just dont issue permits. It would be like tazing every person they find camping illegally in the park instead of asking them to leave.

Rangers and cops are very similar in my experience, a lot of them are pretty nice reasonable people, and a certain percentage got picked on when they were kids and are on a constant power trip.

obviously jumping in the NPS system is legal-bridge day. They do allow the jumping to occur, with a special permit. A starting point could be to try and get open communication and have a very orderly/planned event with all the safety cushions that make the powers that be happy. Once that door is open, the envelope could get pressed to open more and more area's and relax rules.
Just a thought.

What if it were accepted, how would it be controlled? How would a place like Yosemite regulate rules & safety standards? Would it even be worth it? How much would you be willing to put up with? I think if it ever were accepted in National Parks the hassle one would have to go through to apply for permits & god knows what else would be a much bigger pain in the ass than just finding away around all of that & wait for a full moon & the right winds...

+1

I really don't see opening up the NPS as the biggest obstacle... that would be keeping it open!

with the contentious relationship between some jumpers and the rangers, access will not be simple. if forced to open it back up, I fear the NP LEO's that will seize any chance to shut it down. keeping jumpers in line, somehow, will prove key. (and thus unlikely.)

What you are missing is the magnitude of the following fundamental problems:

1) It is much easier, simpler, quicker and more enjoyable to buy a ticket to Europe and just go jump than it is to spend that time and money fighting with federal bureaucrats who either really, truly do not consider jumping in national parks to be an "appropriate" activity -- or they really, truly enjoy stomping on the rights of citizens who fall outside the defintion of herd animals.

2) The "total commitment" time frame of the average BASE jumping career is considerably shorter than a federal bureaucrat's career or the time frame necessary to achieve change in a federal bureaucracy.

3) It is too easy for individuals within the BASE jumping community who disagree with your project approach to sabotage that approach, thereby rendering moot all the time, money and heart you put into the issue, and leaving everything right where it was in the first place: at an impasse.

Best of luck with your project, but unless you figure out how to successfully address these fundamental problems, you are going nowhere.

44

Thanks for all the responses so far... please continue to think about and ad to this thread.


Yes that is the big one. I have already addressed that in my process.

I can't really go into details but I can say that it is nothing like what has been tried and the chances of their agreement are very high.
One problem I can see in your approach has been to wait for them to respond to you. They won't, as you have seen.
in your meetings with NRG officials what has been the biggest hurdle or roadblock that they are putting up?
Do you have the actual permit that is issued for Bridge Day? I would like to see it for reference of what it looks like, who signs it, what process it goes through, etc.
There is no way I'm going to believe that one man cannot change things... that is a defeatist attitude.


While that seems like a good argument on it's face, I don't think that is what will convince them or force their hand.... In fact that argument may be exactly why we have not made any progress.

Correct, it is permitable that is why I would like to see the Bridge Day permit.


What are some of the safety cushions that you think would help?


I think you are right that controlling it would be difficult. The NPS would not be the correct 'person' to regulate and issue permits in my eyes. They do not have the knowledge to be able to make correct judgment calls on conditions, skill level etc. Do you think that a jumper run entity could do a better job and mitigate the risks? Similar to Bridge Day... although I don't think that BD is a good example of BASE jumpers regulating themselves, it's more of a carnival atmosphere.


1) You are right that it is much easier to go to Europe than to tackle the 'government'. I however enjoy a good fight and am not willing to allow them to dictate the terms in which I can enjoy my life. So I continue to explore my options.

2) I don't see how this argument has anything to do with it... Why does it have to be a single jumpers commitment? Why can't it be the communities commitment? Why can't one jumper change things?

3) It sounds as if you are holding a grudge against people you have dealt with in the past... It's unfortunate that we, as a community, can't work together on this and not let personal issues destroy the seemingly forward progress.



570

Kjerag does a pretty good job at this...

they have a boat!
thus they effectively control access.
Jason's BD permit cedes him a lot of control as well. LEO's ensure he complies.

Yes..they have a boat...(thank you captain obvious)

And yes the Klubb has the upper hand. Since I want to be Major obvious; Kjerag like many of the large walls, Baffin, Angel Falls, the Cave, etc is all about logistics. Where if you jump you do not land in civilization. More of a Nature to Nature jump.

Its easy to compare Josemighty to Italy. With knowledge you can find the exit point(or hike and not find it); if you jump your back in civilization. If you don't your in nature. Which I call a Nature to Civilization jump.

In my view this is a dilemma for control...
Being a Nature to Civilization jump hurts the cause if we want it to be modeled after Kjerag.

Do all of those who are not in favor for site control think that the club controlling Kjerag is the wrong thing?

(keep in mind this discussion is primarily about the pinnacle of NPS property, and not NPS as a whole)

On the contrary, one problem I see with your plan is that you appear to be attempting this alone. You should email people like Robin Heid, Jimmy/Marta Pouchert, Jason Dawson, Mick Knutson, Todd Shoebotham, Tom Aiello, Harry Parker, me, etc. I'm happy to help you as much as I can - but it's a bit soon to identify my problems via the information contained in one short forum post...


Biggest hurdle is the system itself. By "the system", I mean the NPS's Management Policies that essentially outlaw jumping and the 30+ years of systematic permit denials (see this and this). BASE isn't legal unless performed under a permit. Even if you find a ranger who supports BASE jumping, he's risking his job by supporting you. You'll have to find a better way to influence the NPS into saying yes, and I personally think that'll likely involve lawyers and lots of money.


I've had them on the BD website since 2002. Go here: http://www.bridgeday.info/nps.php


BD is probably the MOST self-regulated BASE jumping event in the world.


As a jumper and organizer, I will support anyone who wants to change the system. However, by soliciting information on this forum, you are already more than "one person".

Call me if you want to chat (304-933-9330). Cya.

Has there been an organized mass permit request been attempted by everyone possible all done individually, and all paperwork forwarded to everyone possible that oversees the NPS and can change such behavior and policies?

It would seem that if the NPS and the people that run above them received about 200 permit requests all at once it might bring some public attention to the right people above that did not know this BS was going on and can step down and fix it.

The probability of survival is equal to the angle of arrival.

Well explain why its bullshit instead of make a short useless bullshit post.

I've been on government for 20 years, there IS someone above them that can change this that just has not been aware of the situation.

I'm sorry that my signature line also did not include things like velocity, ground type, armor, fitness of the pilot. Most people read it as land wings level and not in a dive, but thanks for over analyzing the obvious....

Jean Boenish wrote an environmental impact study of jumping Yosemite. Rick Harrison assisted a bit. Would such an item be useful to resurrect?

Oooohhh a sore spot, poke poke. Lighten up brother. My point is that landing near vertical like sinking a BASE, accuracy or round canopy doesn't improve survivability any more than swooping or landing a paraglider. Both work well when done properly, one pretty vertical the other pretty horizontal. Ergo my calling bullshit to the cliche. Seeing as to how it's your sig line I'm not surprised that you're offended but that doesn't really bother me.

enjoy the fight, but you'll find that most BASE jumpers would rather jump than fight.


You miss the point entirely. It is the life sycle of the COMMUNITY, not an individual jumper, that is shorter than the time frame necessary to maintain continuity of purpose in your project. You have to re-educate, re-orient, and re-start everything you do every couple of years or so because of this life cycle -- which takes a lot of time, energy and money to do.



LOL... I hope your amateur political maneuvering is better than your amateur psychologist musings. I just reminded you of a serious process vulnerability that you face going forward, that's all... a process vulnerability that transcends BASE and me specifically. And yes, it is indeed unfortunate that this happens, but what is more unfortunate is the astonishing naivete you exhibit in this answer. NPS will eat you alive.

Best of luck, though, and keep on trying to learn. Who knows? You may indeed be the one who takes it to the tipping point and good on ya for making a go of it!

44

No biggie, on side note that's not the exact sig line that is supposed to be in there, it's supposed to be in relation to , not equal to, just noticed. I corrected it when I wrote it initially, but years back when dropzone split the forums into a completely new website and transferred existing users automatically over it took my old sig line also, weird.

Also just saw your reply posting our pms, and my comment still stands and you just reaffirmed my suspicions that your are and idot, now let's get back to the task at hand and talk about ways we can fix the nps issue


Ooh

I think mass permit requests or mass jumps will only piss them off. The NPS is well aware of how many jumpers are interested in their cliffs.

Robin Heid is very much correct in saying that the life cycle of the BASE jumping activist is pretty short. Jumpers come and go pretty fast. Only a few of us have really put a lot of effort into it over the years. I'm still plugging away on legal BASE outside of BD at the NRGB, and I put a lot of work into it last year.

I was involved with the CJAA, ABP, and now the organization of Bridge Day for the last 10 years. If I were to offer advice to another jumper:

1) Research. Learn everything you can about what has been attempted in the past and what the regulations are. Call all the people listed in my first post (above).

2) Communication. Set up meetings with NPS to discuss issues. I say this because jumpers and rangers haven't had a face-to-face meeting in awhile, if ever. Show them that you're a normal person. Prepare yourself for many of the normal NPS concerns (BASE interrupts the serenity of the park, disturbs wildlife, jumpers don't follow rules, littering, etc.).

3) Planning. Have a plan ready for the kind of jumping you'd like to see in the parks. Figure out who will manage it, because it will NEED to be managed/regulated.

4) Protest. Organize a peaceful, non-jumping protest at Yosemite and other parks. Hand out literature to park visitors. Be careful not to kite your canopy in the park since others have been arrested for doing so.

5) Lawyers. When all else fails, which it likely will, then bust out your checkbook and hire an expensive lawyer. Many things in the USA only get changed via lawsuits, lobbying, etc. But you never know.....your good looks and charm may win them over, negating the need for lawyers.

6) The Ultimate Plan: Raise your kid to be a secret pro-BASE jumping ranger. Find a way for him to rise to the level of Yosemite superintendent. Have your kid issue free BASE jumping permits to all jumpers.

Good luck.

What were the arrested for?

See attached. Sad.

wow, that's fucking absurd.

It is time for outdoor people to team up, and take over your national parks by getting employed one by one. It have to be an inside job.

+1... except for the unavoidable fact thati most "outdoor people" who DO get NPS jobs are taken over by the bureaucracy, not the other way around.

Just as bureaucracies abandon their official mission in favor of continued survival and expansion, so too do the bureaucrats themselves trade in mission and conscience for job security and promotion.

Most important, though, is #2 of the principal roadblocks I listed above: the life cycle of a committed BASE jumper is far exceeded by the time frame required to get qualified for, then apply for, then finally (maybe!) "get employed" by NPS.

44

Well you're right, this thread took a wrong turn.

Fascinating though that my posting your PM, which I did intentionally to embarass you for telling me to fuck off, is deleted while your personal attack calling me so ironically "and idot" is still here. Since you altered your sig line you apparently agreed with me that it was bullshit.

In the meanwhile I'm all ears listening to how best to battle the NPS, so far I like the idea of planting moles in the system the best. Take it down from the inside.

Yes, that would be great.

Thanks for all of the other replies. I appreciate all of the input.

If we were to get permits to jump what are some stipulations, if any, that may be be good to have in the permit? i.e. only morning jumps, BASE jump minimum, weather conditions etc.
What would you want to be included in the agreement? i.e. ability to film, designated LZ's, park entrance fee included in permit fee, etc.

Jason428 I am looking over all of your permits and all of the other things you have made available. Thanks. Who actually signs the permit for BD? Is it the head of New River Gorge or is it the Director Jarvis, someone in the Dept of the Interior or some random authorized agent?

You should keep as much out of the agreement as possible...why shoot ourselves in the foot before anything happens.

Robin, do you have a list of the stipulations/rules of the first agreement when they began to issue permits?

Normally the superintendent or chief ranger signs my permit. However, my permit is only possible because the NPS obtained a special waiver to the NPS Management Policies called a "director's waiver" back in 2002:

2006 NPS Management Policies
8.2.2.7 Parachuting
Parachuting (or BASE jumping), whether from an aircraft, structure, or natural feature, is generally prohibited by 36 CFR 2.17(a)(3). However, if determined through a park planning process to be an appropriate activity, it may be allowed pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit.

In other words, to jump legally on park property, you need one of these:

1) A director's waiver and a permit
2) A permit (provided the park has incorporated BASE jumping into their park planning process and deemed it an appropriate activity). No parks have done this yet.

When working with the ABP a few years ago, our approach was to get certain parks to discuss BASE jumping and work it into their upcoming park planning processes. The only bad thing is the some parks take 10 years to go through the process. The local NPS at Bridge Day just went through the process and tons of BASE jumpers submitted written comments 1-3 years ago asking them to address BASE jumping. THEY REFUSED to address it, despite YEARS of comments on the record. Actually, I was told directly by the superintendent that they will not address it. This means that next year, the NPS will have to again obtain a director's waiver that will allow jumping at BD. The last director's waiver was performed in 2002 and was good for 10 years. I believe it expires in 2012. Of course, BD has enough financial influence that I'm confident another director's waiver will be signed.

If you're crafting a set of guidelines for BASE jumping, I suggest you clearly state that BASE jumpers are best managed by other BASE jumpers. It makes no sense for rangers to determine safety, weather, gear, experience, and other factors that affect our sport. For example, I tend to laugh out loud when I see rangers at BD holding up their little plastic anemometers when winds start to pick up. Do rangers really think they are smarter than jumpers when it comes to the weather and determining the threshold for safe jumps? Do they really think that my staff and I wouldn't stop jumping when WE determine winds are too strong or turbulent? The Bridge Day Commission hires jumpers to manage BASE jumping at Bridge Day for a good reason.

First paragraph: +1

Second paragraph:

NPS stipulations:
1) Everyone had to jump solo.
2) Everyone had to be off by 8 am.
3) Ten jumpers per day limit.
4) Backcountry permit

USPA stipulations:
1) USPA membership
2) D license
3) Hard helmet
4) Square main parachute

Stipulations, however, are generally BS and cannot work in a wilderness environment.

What works on a bridge OVER an NPS area does not apply to a cliff in a national park. PERIOD.

If you look at all other recreational BACKCOUNTRY activities in national parks, there is NOT this kind of regulation and control, in significant part due to the associated liability of having NPS officials be responsible for assessing the adequacy and legitimacy of the participant's qualifications -- or the legitimancy and adequacy of those to whom they cub-contract that assessment.

Take CLIMBING El Capitan as an example. Every person reading this thread could, if s/he so chose, go to the base of El Capitan and start climbing. All s/he would need to get is the backcountry permit, which is issued at a window to anyone going off the pavement, primarily to know how many people are back there and when/where to look for them if they don't come back (or there's a natural disaster and everyone needs to be evacuated).

BASE jumpers insist on thinking that they can run jumping in the backcountry the way they do at drop zones and bridges -- despite the fact that the Euro model of minimal control and regulation seems to work just fine.

Veteran NPS hands literally laugh at the legal naivete and backcountry management ignorance of jumpers offering to "regulate themselves" and "coordinate" those regulatory activities with NPS.

It comes down to the very simple liability question of who is qualified to determine who is qualified to determine who is qualified to jump.

That is why, in fact, practice and history there is no such qualification superstructure for rock climbing in national parks, the sport with which our activities most closely coincide -- along with large-scale picknicking.

Don't laugh at the latter... after Ken Burns did his monumental Civil War documentary, thousands of people flooded NPS battlefield units and had huge picnics that revolved around the battles fought there and Civil War history generally.

Until that time, most picknickers pursued their recreation in numbers small enough that they didn't need to be regulated. With the large-scale activities, though, individual units developed a two-tier system for managing picnics.

If you have a group of ten or les (the exact cutoff number is determined by individual units), then you need no permit of any kind.

If your number exceeds the cutoff, then you need to get a special use permit that includes certain stipulations (again, determined by the individual unit).

The same sort of system WOULD have to be applied to jumping because, unlike rock climbing, jumpers do indeed tend to jump in large groups. whereas climbers generally don't (it ain't practical to climb El Capitan with a 10-man team).

Anyway, all of this talk about creating a drop-zone/Bridge Day/amusment park regulatory/supervisory system is a complete and utter waste of time and simply reinforces for NPS that we as a community have NO CLUE about how to behave in the backcountry.

44

Robin is probably the most knowledgeable jumper in the world with respect to the NPS. But I disagree with the idea that BASE jumpers don't need any rules. Back when El Cap was legal (1980?), there were only a few rules and it took only weeks for jumpers to break them. The mindset of a jumper hasn't changed too much over the years.

There are plenty of sites around the world (Perrine, Kjerag, Brento, Lauterbrunnen, etc.) that have a simple set of rules (written or verbal). The ability to develop our own rules while keeping them short and sweet serves to enhance safety, protect the jump site, and appease the powers that be.

Trying not to sound negative here but:

The NPS doesn't have a reason to allow BASE in general. It erodes their power base, creates a variety of issues for them to deal with, doesn't enhance general park use, save money etc. In short their isn't anything in it for them unless there is overwhelming public support or serious legal challenge.

Overwhelming public support? IMO JQ Public equates us with terrorists or possibly deviants at best.

That leaves legal challenge as the only serious option other than planting moles which will take planning and a helluva long time.

Why dont we just recruit someone capable of conning their way right into upper management?

We do have at least one guy on the inside. Whether or not he wants to risk his career is another story entirely.

Thank you for the kind words, Jason, but i think you are confusing "rules" with "ethics." In the places you mention, there are no formal rules and regulations that I know of, just a set of guidelines upon which reasonable people generally agree.

This is how climbing is generally handled in NPS units (though there ARE some "official" rules in some units with regard to certain types of climbing equipment and practices).

And that is how jumping national parks has to be handled, with the absolute minimum formal regulation -- which means instead of trying to pre-answer these objections with rules that cannot be enforced in a backcountry setting, just start with none and add to them only as NECESSARY.

You mention the 1980 El Capitan program as an example where "there were only a few rules and it took only weeks for jumpers to break them."

But all of those rules except one were inappropriate, unreasonable, a waste of NPS time and manpower to enforce, and a liability generator of significant magnitude.

The 1980 rules prove my point that jumpers are mired in a "civilized" mindset when they try to design and implement a "regulatory" system for backcountry activities. I mean, look at this silliness:

The NPS stipulations:
1) Everyone had to jump solo. (Yeah? WHY? This created a meaningless and useless point of friction.)

2) Everyone had to be off by 8 am. (Ditto.)

3) Ten jumpers per day limit. (Ditto, though larger groups SHOULD be subject to the same sort of special user permit oversight as picknickers (described above in a previous post))

4) Backcountry permit. This is the only stipulation that made sense because: a) it's USEFUL and MEANINGFUL, and b) everybody else does it too.

The USPA stipulations were even sillier:
1) USPA membership (designed to generate more revenue for USPA, not promote safety or informed backcountry use)
2) D license (Ditto.)
3) Hard helmet (May be a good idea, but inappropriate and unreasonable to require (for both individual and system reasons))
4) Square main parachute (Ditto.)

To me, the way you put together an intelligent outline of proposed "rules" is not to re-invent the wheel here, based on drop zone practices and a city geek mentality, but to take what is already proven to work at Kjerag, Brento, Lauterbrunnen and ON BLM LANDS IN THE U.S. and use what is applicable to NPS units.

The main thing though is to NOT focus on parachuting qualifications but on BACKCOUNTRY KNOWLEDGE. The NPS really cares much less about recreational sport competency than it does about those recreationists trashing the parks because they're idiot city geeks instead of informed backcountry recreationists.

It was, in fact, not jumper violation of "a few rules" that got us bounced from Yosemite in six weeks -- it was the repeated gity geek crimes committed by those jumpers on their way to the exit point: Driving vehicles in prohibited areas, spray-painting rocks, leaving trash everywhere, being ***holes around the other visitors... you know, being a gang of "look-at-me" losers instead of reverent, responsible visitors to some of the Earth's most beautiful places.

Ergo, whatever the new guys are planning, it needs to focus on educating jumpers to act right in the wilderness, not show off to whuffos what stud jumpers we all are.

I mean, THINK ABOUT IT -- the NPS knows just as well as anyone how far backcountry parachuting has progressed since 1980 in terms of equipment, technique and tribal knowledge. We do NOT have to prove to anyone that it can be done with reasonable safety -- proof of that is all over the internet.

We do NOT need to prove to anyone that we can self-regulate -- documented proof of that is everywhere too.

We must quit fighting the last war and properly observe, orient, decide and act on what we need to do NOW, which is to focus on what most matters to NPS: that we have indeed figured out how to be good backcountry citizens too.

There is also a wealth of proof for that, too, from wilderness venues all over the world, including here in the US on BLM/Forest Service and other non-NPS public lands. We need to focus on this instead of fixating on licenses, ratings, jump numbers and other qualifications that increase NPS liability and workload and do nothing to make us better backcountry citizens.

44

Perfect!

I was just going to bring up the Moab area. It seems to self regulate just fine. For the most part, BASE jumpers follow the same backcountry ethics as all the other recreational users.

The very last thing we need is a BASE equivalent of the USPA! Of the outdoor recreational activities, (hiking, camping, biking, climbing, kayaking, etc...) how many of them have an organized national governing body that determines minimum standards to participate?

Can we pay for a permit? Hollywood has done this a bunch.

Jason do you have a copy of the waiver that was signed by the director in 2002?

I was wondering about the words legal, illegal, lawful and unlawful so I looked them up. Some interesting distinctions are made. Any thoughts?

“Lawful. The principal distinction between the terms “lawful” and “legal” is that the former contemplates the substance of law, the latter the form of law. To say of an act that it is “lawful” implies that it is authorized, sanctioned, or at any rate not forbidden, by law. To say that it is “legal” implies that it is done or performed in accordance with the forms and usages of law, or in a technical manner. In this sense “illegal” approaches the meaning of “invalid.” For example, a contract or will, executed without the required formalities, might be said to be invalid or illegal, but could not be described as unlawful. Further, the word “lawful” more clearly implies an ethical content than does “legal.” The latter goes no further than to denote compliance, with positive, technical, or formal rules; while the former usually imports a moral substance or ethical permissibility. A further distinction is that the word “legal” is used as the synonym of “constructive,” which “lawful” is not. Thus “legal fraud” is fraud implied or inferred by law, or made out by construction. “Lawful fraud” would be a contradiction of terms. Again, “legal” is used as the antithesis of “equitable,” thus, we speak of “legal assets,” “legal estate,” etc., but not of “lawful assets,” or “lawful estate.” But there are some connections in which the two words are used as exact equivalents. Thus, a “lawful” writ, warrant, or process is the same as a “legal” writ, warrant, or process.”
BLACK’S LAW DICTIONARY, Revised 4th Edition

 

Yes, I'll post it here this weekend as I have to find it.

Does anyone have a copy of a wilderness permit I may see? Not the application but the actual permit you get at the park.

thanks

Can you guys think of anyone else that may have an interest in our jumping in Yosemite? Do you have any different or additional contact info?

Ken Salazar secretary
Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, N.W.
Washington DC 20240

David J. Hayes - Deputy Secretary
______________________________________
NPS Director
joanthan Jarvis
1849 C Street NW
Washington, DC 20240

Dan Wenk, Deputy Director Operations


Superintendent, Yosemite
Don Neubacher
PO Box 577,
Yosemite National Park, California 95389
209) 372-0200 (209) 372-0220

Steve Shackelton
Chief Ranger
Yosemite National Park
PO Box 577
Yosemite National Park, California 95389

Charles Cuvelier
Deputy Chief Ranger

Chris Jefferson
Special Permits Program Manager


__________________________________________

California Secretary of State
Debra Bowen
1500 11th Street
Sacramento, CA 95814

National Park Police
Salvatore R. Lauro
Office of the Chief
1100 Ohio Drive S.W.
Washington, D. C. 20242

US District Court
US Magistrate Judge Michael Seng
Yosemite National Park
9004 Castle Cliffs Court, Yosemite, CA 95389

National Park ServicePacific West Region
Christine Lehnertz, Regional Director
National Park Service
One Jackson Center
1111 Jackson Street
Suite 700
Oakland, CA 94607

The only permit one needs in Yosemite for climbing is a backcountry permit for climbing Half Dome. The approach regardless if you gamble with the death slabs or the long hike generally require a overnight stay at the base for most mortals.

ANYONE can walk up to the base of El Cap and start climbing. Even if you hang your ledge 15 feet off the ground your "on the wall". No backcountry permit required.

And if some nOOb want to get on the S.O.D they can. In the event they need a rescue that's when the NPS will hammer them. Once they realize the climber was not prepared for the difficulty of the route.

And there have been teams of 10 on El Cap. Few and far between and the hauling must have been a biotch.

Hauling with 3 sucks much more then a 2 person send.

Indeed... a couple of years back (or more), there was a fair amount of media coverage of three guys who tried to clilmb El Cap and had no gear or experience and had to be rescued and all were charged with reckless endangerment or something analogous, and that is precisely how they should handle jumpers. If some whuffo fool tries to jump and lives through the adventure, s/he should also be hammered by NPS for being an idiot.

the manner in which NPS handles climbers varies from unit to uni and is a well-established workable system. That is why the ABP sought to present backcountry parachuting as a management issue that's basically rock climbing without beating a path to the bottom after topping out.

I just remembered this:

Yosemite a climber needs NO permit.

Zion climbers need permits no matter what. The lesser free climbs it's harder to find climbers, but the major walls in the canyon, climbers are required.

NPS applies 2 different set of rules. Not to mention Yosemite has the best, hands down SAR organization in the world for HAR. Whereas Zion has no SAR.

Any luck with finding this? It would be very helpful.

Found it, tried to scan it, ran into scanner problems. It's on my "to do" list.....

Feel free to email me (jbell AT base428 DOT com).

Lol You dont need a permit to climb at Zion.... you need a permit to bivy the night.

Yosemite has the best high angle and zion has none? hmmm funny they train together

check you facts ;)

You cant remember what you never knew. Google Bo Beck. He helped revamp the Zion SAR in the mid 90's and is one of the most nationally renowned high angle rescue workers I've ever worked with. As a guide I've had the pleasure of working with Bo and his team of climbing instructors, and even though he's old, he can still get the job done. Zion is pretty vast and like a 3-D maze so it's always a good idea to get a permit just to let people know where you'll be, even if its a day trip. They can't help if they don't know youre there. But to say there is none is ridiculous. I can't think of one National Park, Federal Park, or even State forest that doesn't have access to "relatively" fast Search & Rescue.

Dan just because your an Law Enforcement Officer for the NPS and you work in Zion obviously you have a bias.

Yosemite is/was the birthplace for modern day climbing skills.

Do you also work for SAR in Zion too? Or just tOOl people there?

Where and when, in Yosemite, are the nesting of the peregrine falcons? What dates are there closures?

Just read the paraglider story someone posted. I used to have some respect for rangers trying to do their job, albeit ignorant and power horny rangers. But giving someone a class B for kiting a paraglider? That's fucking moronic. Good luck getting approval to jump. Maybe after the apocalypse and everyone is dead it will be cool with them.

Back in the mid-1990's, the US government (NPS included) shut down for a few weeks/months. Jumping at some parks was quite pleasant for awhile.

EDIT: Photo attached. Read the sign.

You have just solved the problem. We just need to get the parks closed "due to lack of federal budget" and it's on like donky kong.

The Rostrum, on the west end of the Valley and the Rhombus Wall, behind the Ahwahnee Hotel. These are two sites in Yos. Valley that have seen closure in recent history, mainly due to being sites frequented by climbers. I believe the closures occur Mid - May to Aug 1st. Some of this information is available in Yosemite rock climbing guidebooks.

From what I understand, you dudes aren't too far off from that happening are you?

How long you reckon til I should I book my plane ticket?

BJ

You must be doing it wrong! With 3 you canuse the extra person as a counter weight while you belay the lead.

Off topic sorry. . .
Carry on.

so there wouldn't be any problem when you land without touching the ground..
you could use a portaledge as landing spot. if your canopy skills arent good enough, simply use a double..

we should just become voluntary rangers

It's not a good copy of the 10-year NPS Bridge Day Director's Waiver, but you can figure out what it says....

http://www.bridgeday.info/...directors_waiver.jpg

It expires after Bridge Day 2011. Can't see any reason why we can't get another 10-year waiver, especially since the NPS ignored our attempts for them to address BASE jumping in their latest General Management Plan (which would have negated the need for the director's waiver altogether).

EDIT: If clicking on the above link takes you to the wrong page, just copy the link location and paste in your browser. Not sure if it's a bug in the bj.com software?




Any luck with finding this? It would be very helpful.

Jason,

are you sure you need a NPS director waiver after 2011?

The 2006 Management Policies section on parachuting and base jumping (drafted with the help of the ABP and literally negotiated between meetings by Gardner Sapp talking with Chick Fagan) puts the decision back in the hands of unit superintendents. Here's the relevant section:

"8.2.2.7 Parachuting
Parachuting (or BASE jumping), whether from an aircraft, structure, or natural feature, is generally prohibited by 36 CFR 2.17(a)(3). However, if determined through a park planning process to be an appropriate activity, it may be allowed pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit."

Now, if New River has not done this planning process, then you may still need a director's waiver, but unless you've already gotten an official in-writing "yes, you need another director's waiver," then maybe you can just get your special use permits without it. Apologies in advance if you already did this drill.

44

The latest New River General Management Plan (ie. planning process) failed to address BASE jumping last year despite our repeated requests. In following their rules, we'll likely need a waiver. However, it's really up to the NPS to determine what method they'll use to issue a valid BASE jumping permit. In 2002, the NPS did all the work on obtaining a director's waiver.

PS. If any of you are really bored, I'd love to know why clicking on the link my last post defaults to the wrong page (but copying the link works fine).

Hey Jason, when I copy and paste it tells me the link is broken.

2012 is when the world will end though.

Booored!
Fixed it!:

http://www.bridgeday.info/documents/directors_waiver.jpg

But I`ve really no idea why your link is not working...

edit2add:
Not really fixed... now your link is also working for me.
strange...
@Lonie: try rightclick-open in new window.
after doing this one time, the links are all working fine for me...

The closures don't have anything to do with climbers using these sites. It's because peregrine falcons use these parts of the cliffs for nesting and the NPS doesn't want climbers too close to their nests. Part of the east face of El Cap is closed now, as well. in the Spring.

posted from another site, thought is has merit here:
There is a great post in the comments section underneath that article by a guy calling himself Randy English. Right on the money.

"NPS ban on BASE jumping is arbitrary and without merit. Higher risk activities such as free soloing are allowed. More environmentally destructive activities such as horseback riding are allowed. I would wager more people die annually going over Vernal or Nevada Falls than BASE jumping. Granted more people walk to the falls than BASE jump, but if safety is the reason for the ban on BASE jumping, the trail to Vernal/Nevada falls should be closed for safety as well.

In my discussion with NPS staff two reasons for the ban are cited. The first is safety. When I have countered with the above arguments about free soloing/tourists going over falls, they have stated their real concern is not the jumper, but motorists crashing because they are watching the jumper not the road. Then the real concern is cited, the fear of subsequent lawsuits from said motorists. The solution for their first concern is simple, scheduled road closures, perhaps for one hour every Wednesday afternoon (arbitrary time/day just for example). No traffic, no distracted motorists. Road would be open for emergency vehicles and since they are driven by professionals there should be no concern about the driver not watching the road. (Some may argue about closing the valley floor to automobile traffic altogether due to environmental degradation but that is another issue altogether)

Their second argument is BASE jumping is a nontraditional activity outside the scope of recreation in a national park. This argument is so spurious that it noes not merit a rebuttal. It makes as much sense as banning digital photography in the park because it was not in use during Ansel Adams lifetime.

NPS land is owned by the people not the agency that oversees the land. The NPS should not have the authority to ban any nondestructive use of the peoples land (Cue Woody Guthrie...)

I am not a BASE jumper. I am a climber/skier/backpacker. I am concerned that if the NPS can place an outright ban on an activity like BASE jumping, the activities I enjoy can be banned as well. Remember for a time in the 50's the NPS banned Warren Harding from his first ascent attempts on the Nose of El Cap due to traffic concerns.

As for BASE jumping off private property, well that is private property and the property owners have rights. Proceed at your own peril. "


This: NPS land is owned by the people not the agency that oversees the land.

Giddy up Ammon. I'll be see'n you soon.

Important Thread; very much so worth a full (re-)reading.

Hasn't answered my main question... but it answered quite a few smaller ones.

However, I think someone posting here, could answer it.



Any updates?
.
.

I've read your thread... don't think you've read mine.