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When would you use a rear riser turn over a toggle turn and why?
I have been doing some practice drills on the canopy for stalls, and quick response turns. My question is this, It seems that most agree that you should go immediately to a deep rear toggle turn instead of toggle turn to avoid an obsticle strike (at the moment ignore a stall to slide backwards for the this question). Why? I understand that you are getting response from three cells with rears, as opposed to two with brakes, but do you get a significantly more quick response? or is it more that if you train for rears first, you have more options with inducing stall if needed, or turn if needed?
Granted my practice doesn't give me a true feel, but I am not seeing much difference in speed of response in either approach.

How quickly can you get to your toggles? Can you get on your rear risers quicker? What if you miss your toggles? When you pop your toggles what are the chances you will cause your canopy to surge and actually fly towards the object faster before you start your turn.

Those are a few of the things I think about. If I'm flying towards an object I'll correct on rears cause it's quicker for me. But that's just me..I'm sure others will swear by toggles..

http://johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html

Depends on the canopy. How it stalls or not. some canopies react like (flying) backing out of a parking place.
Others.... like major alt loss and then you have to milk the risers to get it flying again. It would help if you specify the canopy so that others can chip in to this thread with some relativity. For example: Higher aspect ratios could mean more off heading openings but more correctable with RR. Opposed to more on heading and less correctable with a given altitude.
Me? I am a toggler.( The "surge" propaganda is BS. Certainly, if one unstows and does nothing else like pulling down the toggle....) One must look at what controls are available and act accordingly due to the canopy response. Hope this makes some sense.
Toggles will always work but can be a difficult grab. Itsa gambit.
Take care,
space

Toggles make the most sense from a "muscle memory" point of view. I mean, for the majority of base jumpers, you have several hundred skydives where your hands have been taught to instinctively find the toggles, and then you start base jumping. In base you sometimes have milliseconds to make a decision, so why wouldn't you go to what you're familiar with? If you fuck up and miss one toggle....well, just DONT fuck up and miss one toggle! :-) But, if you do fuck up, you still have your plan 'B' with the risers.

Depends on this...depends on that...he said...she said...


practice. do what works for you.

Dude... are you poppin your toggles on skydiving openings? dangerous iffin someone asked me. I only do it nearby walls.
Take care,
space

When SKY jumping I do NOT pop my toggles right away.
Using rears in the SKY is a no brainer... cause you can
immediately add input, the toggles are more difficult to
get into, and the loss of an extra 50 feet doesn't matter.

As for BASE jumping...

I was taught use REARS IF you have a 180 & are already
tensing your body for imminent impact with the object.

However, I have had three 180s so far and every time my
hands are already IN the toggles and at work by the time
my slow and frightened brain even registers that I am
about to really fuck myself up.

...the stupid title I had on my post and to add:
I am definitely not suggesting either strategy
just sharing my 3 experiences, where luck probably
helped me more than I might want to admit

Other things to consider are how much altitude you have to work with in association with the type of turn. The rear riser turn, assuming well set deep brakes, should have you turning/ backing out of the object. Imagine the canopy stalling/turning/pivoting like a pole thru the middle of the canopy. The penalty for this type of turn is that it eats up a lot of altitude. Toggle turn will conserve height but the canopy is flying forward and/or turning which may put you into the object. Both have there applications. Rear riser turns are generally for solid (cliff, dam, B, etc ) slider down objects as a zen master once told me when an imminent object strike is upon you. Use only the amount of riser to get you out of the imminent strike and switch to toggles. Each object and scenario are different. Use internet FJC at your peril. Happy jumping.

One of the moderators, Outrager nailled it. Maybe he can chip in. Risers for the object and toggles for the earth.
The Troll is a nice backwards flying canopy on risers in my experience. You should be careful with any canopy though reaching up too early. Broken fingers and such. Hypothetically, as the metal links are breaking your bones, heading can be affected.
Take care
space

I Like thet

Other than the rings, what part of the rig would eat your fingers?

The links, 60mph if you do a 3 sec, Main rings shouldnt be prob.
21grams per link traveling at 60mph at your hands or head. Hope this helps. I can send you the xls file from Andrea if you wish. Andrea is a committed BASEr and engineer and he can do that funky math stuff.
Take care,
space

That'd be great.

Nothin' like facts.

Facts should always be spelelled with a "?" . Take care,
space

You can always do the maths and physics yourself. Opinion is something to be wary of.

Thanks a bunch.

+1

Thanks for Johnny's link. Worth a read.


I like. :-)

am still new (and figuratively speaking will always be 'new' ...keep learning :-) ) to BASE and at such a stage mind tends to gobble the myriad of things that come from different experienced people. And seems "practice. do what works for you" is the best way to go, coupled with some informative reading as is going on in this thread before practicing ... ...wrong practice is not practice....its a developing bad habit :)

all the inputs coming along are pretty helpful. Thanks!

There is a good thread on the topic here:

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1909728;page=unread#unread

I am an old timer who jumped a lot a long time ago, but I skydived my ass off as well. I think that it is in your best interest to stay super current on both BASE and skydiving. Skydiving teaches you a lot of canopy skills.

We used to always do the riser stall/turn, and there were tons of 180's. I mean, we were often doing little more than jumping a skydiving rig with a big pilot chute.

So I have done a fair number of riser self rescues. And sometimes it doesn't matter, because you are going to hit it no matter what. But it should be something you practice over and over. The decision time is in microseconds. If you think, you stink.

I read Johnny Utah's toggle method with great interest and from what I can tell, it is superior. However, you better be good at getting your hands in the toggles before inflation. Just don't RELEASE them until you have to.

And take anything I say with a grain of salt. I am older than dirt. But I am still kicking....

One thing I have always thought of when people say they use toggles as their primary response is what will you do if some thing doesn't go to plan like a brake fire on openning? Now you will be facing an object and all confused as to where your toggle went. Or what if you miss rigged your gear and your toggle falls off in your hand? Then you will be really fucking confused as to why you aren't turning when you are waving your toggle around. I know it sounds kinda stupid but if it were to happen you would lose all the precious time it takes to sort out your shit and revert back to your risers. And for the record I have seen object strikes resulting from these exact two scenarios. Keep it simple. The straps will always be there and they will always work.

Thanks for that 2005 thread link, Base104.
the debate is still on...

I see that one good point there that had bothered me .. when on toggles) during object avoidance if one goes for a sharp turn, he would certainly be swinging towards the object albeit turning away from the object. wwrapped got some good points to address my anxiety in this event.

Been repeatedly watching this video of Johnny
http://johnnyutah.com/images/toggleheadingcorrectionsu.mov

whew! He pops the brakes even before the slider is down and the right hand is already up to take the left turn.
Line over possibilities?

for now, am sticking to rears as I was taught and which I found quite comfortable and logical(to me) to go for