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"A democracy is a system of government in which the people hold ultimate political power"

So i wish to discuss how America is NOT a democratic nation.

In 2006, the democratic party took a majority of the house and the senate by campaigning their opposition to the war in Iraq.

Public opinion polls still register a strong opposition to the war.

a democrat is even leading our country, and lies of removing troops from the middle east still come about.

so why is this so?

if the majority of americans oppose the war, and americas goernment claims to be democratic, and the voice of the people, what force keeps us in the middle east??

why is there still more death than needs be?
if they wanna kill each other over there, why do we have to risk our brothers and sisters fighting for them?
its only another vietnam, or korea.. when will this be realized?

 
Your pole sways gently back and forth snaping the line like a whip till the loure lands gently on the surface of the water... Ok, I'll bite.

First. Thank god our system is not a strict democrocy. Do you reallize what the adverage IQ is in america? Even worse the colective IQ? As a group grows larger the colective behaveure shifts not towards the brightest but towards the lowest commen denominator. People are stupid, ignorrant, selfish... I offer you as an exammple.

Second. The lies told to the ignorant masses in order to get into office have little if any thing to do with the job of the office it self. See first point. Once in office you are faced with two sepperat, totaly independent, and some times contradictory goals. First, and note that this is first and a much higher priority then the second, to seek reelection. The first and primary goal of any elected offical is to remmain in office or to seek a higher office. Second, and this only has importants so far as it suports the first goal is to perform the duties of the office to which you are elected. There comes a point at which you may be judged on the actual performance of your duites and it may effect your hopes for reelection.

Third. No matter what ideolistic bull shit you spouted sooner or later you run up against the hard wall of reality. Reality, that would be the thing that exest in and of it self independent of your beleafes and oppeniones. That's were we are now. we are at the point where we are forced to deal with reallity. For our good presedent I'd say it began following his election but priore to his actually takeing office. Do you by chance recall the day when as presedent elect he had his first real security breafing? There wes a shot on the news of him as he left, you wouldn't think that with his ethnic background that he could be so pale. We are there because we need to be there. We are deeply involved in that area of the world because there are valualble natural resorces there that are vital for our own national interest. The only question is why were we not involved there sooner. If we had taken a greater interest and taken a strong stand sooner the situation might not have detearated so far. The world trade center might still be standing. We have at times been too isolationest and failed to take a longer view towards protecting our national interest in the long run. I personaly think we should have followed a more impearealistic stategy towards securing the stateagic resorces to insure our security. In hind site I'd say there have been a number of errors in judgement dateing back to WWII.

Fourth...
That has never been an issue. If that was our motivation then we would have been in there thirty years earlier rather then just wringing our hands in the uninted nations wishing that they would just stop useing chemical wepons on civilions. we let people die every day. No one cares about mass murder or even genocide. That is not enough reason for a country to go to war. If it was otherwise then we'd have invaded half the countries in africa by now. We are trying to stop the vilance there because it is a neccesary step towards stabalizing the country.

Well, that's enough pot stering for the moment. Let the fire works beguin.

Lee

Here is the only problem of your democracy

 
The original concept of voting in America was very diffrent. It was based on the idea of an informed and educated voting base. It was never the intention of the fathers of our country that the nation should be rulled by the mob. It was originaly set out that only white, male, land owners would be allowed to vote. Before the cries of protest and and bigittry beguin you have to look at this in the context of the time. You have to understand how the land was settled and collonised. What they wanted was educated, informed, responcable people of hopefully good moral background. The laws under which the colonies were established varied but that was the best set of qualifacations they could come up with for who could be intrusted to make decisions for their country.

I think I can argue that the idea of universal sufferage was a mistake. It was based on the idea of wide spread public education. That idea has or is failing in this country. I have a friend who is in the process of becoming a teacher. He's been subbing and he just got his first real job teaching. I hear all the stories. If it was up to me I'd sevearly restrict the voteing process. I'd make eather a colage degree or millitary service or both a minimum requirment in order to vote. There are a lot of people in this country that I concider unqualified to make decisions.

The alturnitive is what we have today where polotitions must put on a dog and pony show for the masses in order to win office ala Swift.

Lee

First, I agree that the majority of Americans are ignorant & lazy.

Second, most of them are very happy to continue in this fashion
and actively resist change of any kind even if it is in their best
interest in the long term.

Third, we use the same method to pick a leader as you people
do for bologna. I say you because I do not eat bologna nor do
I watch television - however, commercials, jingles, and sound
bites are the things that sadly elect politicians.

Fourth, please go here http://www.iousathemovie.com/

Fifth, my opinions come from years of dealing with the public
in various forms, the most recent being college professor and
tandem master. The former do not know how old America is
or how many states we have. The latter do not know their
left from their right. Neither want to put their phones down
long enough to learn much... Hopeless.

I do too, and those 2 kinds of those people are probably the ones I would want to keep out of it.

Without sounding as though this is an insult on you, you state that ones intelligence when it comes to school and college education should be the deciding factor on one being worthy to vote. Now without nit-picking your post was completely riddled with basic English spelling mistakes. Does that mean that you're uneducated, and that you don't deserve to vote? School education doesn't teach one to be smart, it just teaches them a certain subject. It is up to the individual themselves to enlighten themselves to the world.

It sounds as though you want an oppressive state where only the rich matter or the 'well educated' can vote. A college degree makes one no wiser to the world than one without, in fact just look at a frat house and see the kinds of people that would qualify for your version of 'democracy'.

It's no secret that education is failing, but are you forgetting why? You're trying to fix the problems caused by oppression by creating that same oppression over again? Lacks logic in every way. Blacks were not allowed to vote for a president who might be able to help them and actually give a fuck and now that they are allowed to, you want to take it away before anything is even done to clean up their situation.... Whenever that will happen.

I'm sorry but if the idea that you put forward was ever put in place, I'd be on the front line of the revolution to overthrow the self-righteous pigs at the top. Money and education don't make you a better person, and neither does serving in the military.

I agree with the fact that democracy fails because people are idiots, but for the complete opposite reason you do. I think people are idiots because they're religious and/or want to force their own moral ideals onto society. I worry because there were enough stupid people out there to not give a fuck about the poor and instead cry over their increase in taxes. I loath the selfish and apathetic.

Until people in general open their eyes and become wise- no, not educated- wise. Democracy will fail.

Besides the only reason I vote is to help the lesser evil win. Any form of Government is oppression, libertarian less so, but still too much. And I will always fight against anyone who dares to try enforce even more oppression on the people of any country.

Fuck Governments, Fuck Oppression, Fuck the false sense of freedom the public gets sold by politicians.

My wife & I both voted for Obama, I had a black roommate
in college, several blacks friends, etc. Nonetheless, I disagree
with the sentiment above.

1 - plenty of white/yellow/etc. people care about civil rights.

2 - most of the problems in the black community can ONLY
be solved by themselves; as in their biggest hurdles now are
behavior and not the system itself (same for whites too).

In reply to:

stupid people out there to not give a fuck about the poor
and instead cry over their increase in taxes.

Imagine you have a friend with a meth problem, you give
him or her some money & food on Monday, they toss the
food, buy more ice, and smoke away. Wednesday they
are back and need more, so you give, cause you are a
bright/caring/good person. Friday they are back and so
it goes till you are broke or they are dead.

That is at times how I feel about giving money to the
poor and to the politicians who SAY they can actually
do something productive with my money.

Agreed, but when a cog is set in motion it's very difficult to just stop. I recently had this discussion on dz. Since slavery blacks were torn apart from their families and young black boys were raised with the idea that it's normal not to have a father. Then just prior to the civil rights movement they were oppressed in society which often led to drug sales, which led to more black men in jail. And that was about 1 to 2 generations ago, so it's not in the distant past.

I agree it is up to them and they have no more real excuses as such, but I think more help is needed on getting them out of the cycle they are in, I mean it's no secret that the 'ghettos' are still not where everyones eyes are focused when it comes to development. It's mostly making the rich areas nicer to increase tourism etc.


I don't believe in tossing money at anyone, I think it needs to be done responsibly, in large sums but responsibly. The problem I feel is that it's looked at as a hopeless cause and that the current idea is not stemming the cause of the problem but rather tending to the action caused by the problem.

Drug sales for example, instead of spending billions to try cure the problem of drug addiction/use and slinging they attack the result of the problem. With such terrible tactics as 'the war on drugs' which has been going on for decades and clearly isn't working.

I'm all about education and fixing the problems... And of course I don't have a complete plan to get crack off the streets or stop unwanted pregnancies. But I think that is an area which government definitely hasn't focused on enough.

People don't really want to be selling drugs, committing crimes and gang banging... Those are just usually the results of another problem, a problem that needs less shunning and more focused effort at trying to eradicate. The few that do want to do those things are minimal.


PS: Of course I don't have all the answers on how to achieve full liberation while at the same time bettering the people as a whole's lives. But the above post about only highly educated people being able to vote is definitely NOT the way. Some of the best revolutionaries were not college educated people, yet they did what was best for the people. Race isn't important in this conversation as much as education is. And I don't believe ones rights should come with the amount of money or opportunity you had in your life...

first off, I was always told the US is NOT a Democracy. it is a Republic. (hopefully a democratic republic...)

the Declaration of Independence clearly viewed the Individual as the authority. thus, it should be Individuals that correct problems. asking the government to correct ills is ceding the power of the individual to the government. plus, no matter how much money the government spends, if the individual does not feel like changing, they won't. it just facilitates the underlying issues.


if you want to know what that looks like, pull out history books of the early '60's. Joe McCarthy had lead a crusade in the '50's to purge out undesirables. the reform resulted in a "smarter than thou" McNamara running the Vietnam war, those that were not part of the ruling class were sent to the jungles, the streets erupted in protest, and the power brokers attacked citizens with dogs.

(or just look at Apartheid era South Africa...)



if people really want to improve society, government, etc., they should focus on improving themselves. everyone should just worry about 1 person, not a group of "them." people seem powerless against "them," so of course, the government must intervene. everyone has the power to to reform themselves, but they abdicate the responsibility.

(one reason I appreciate BASE, is it requires the individual to take responsibility for themselves. there is no "them" forcing anyone to jump or get hurt.)

 
I'm not offended at all. My spelling is horreable and I know it. In point of fact I would not qualify under the requirements I have set out. I studied Aerospace eng in school but never finished my degree. Took a semester off for a world record attempt and wound up a drop zone bum...

I don't think there is an easy way to sepperate the wheet from the chaff in this. The white male land owner rule was not perfect at the time and neather is this. I am opposed to unresticted voteing. I feel that there should be some qualifacation. I think a degree is as good of a devision as any. What does it imply? It suggest that you have some level of education, High school in this country nolonger qualifing. A degree generaly implies some breath beyond your major. It requires at least a basic coriculum in history, economics, goverment, humanities and english. Notice I never finished my degree. It often requires leaveing home. There is generally a wider cultural diversity then in a small town high school. It's a brodening experance for ones mind. It implies a level of disaplin and dedication above and beyond the mandetory which in this country is now geared towards the lowest commen denomonater. It's not in any way eleatest. Ok, Harvard might be eleatest but even harvard has scallerships. Hell even I got a scallership, my math was very strong. There are good state schools all over the country that are not exspensive. Regardless of where you go the quality of your education depends on the effert you put into it.

Millitary service. Just for the record I don't think you should be able to run for president if you have not served in some branch of the millitary. We're talking about the comander and chief. The highest position in the military. This is the man that orders our armies to march off to war. But beyond that when some one joins the millitary it is the greatest sign of patriatisem there is. There is no higher mark of devotion to the health and well being of thier country then the willingness to die for it's ideals. That alone should give them the right to help guide it's future. I would not be oposed to it being manditory to earn the right to vote through service to the country. Futher more when some one enters the millitary it removes them from their little corner of the world. They will most likely be posted in some other part of the country. It forces them into a broader view of the world and through the course of their service they will most likely see a good part of the country if not the world. I think travel should be incuraged if not required. I think every one should have a chance to see other parts of the world and perferably see life in a third world country.

Lee

Regardless of where you go the quality of your
education depends on the effort YOU put into it.

So True... and applies to life & jumping also!!

I have talked to many veterans. they do not seem to come out well rounded. hanging out with like minded people tends to calcify opinion, not expand them.

again, think in terms of a frat house.

requiring a president to have military service can do some odd things.
- they may be less likely to send troops on lame causes (yeah!)
- they may end up too closely allied with the generals, like in third world countries such as Pakistan (boo!)
- the military political machine might find "creative" ways to benefit itself. (?)
- more people with political aspirations would be compelled to join, and not necessarily to fight. not sure what that would mean for morale...

interesting idea.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
.

Doug Stanhope on the Pledge of Allegiance and liberty part 1

But the problem is this, even those college educations don't make you wise to the world at all, and it definitely doesn't open your eyes to moral problems. If anything, the wealthy tend to be aloof as to the suffering of the poor.

From personal experience, I have no college degree- I didn't attend college at all and skated by in high school. I was never really one to care about learning at all in high school. Once I matured I realized that knowledge is essential in life. Since then I make sure to research and study almost every topic that crosses my mind, whether it be historical, political or just general information. I hate not knowing. Now on the other hand, I have friends who did well in school and whom graduated from college- but many of these people don't have a clue about the world. Sure they may have more impressive English vocabulary or they may know how to assemble an electronic device- but they don't know anything beyond what they studied, and these techniques may be useful for making money but they don't define a persons wisdom.

Many people don't have the money for college, I was one of them. My father had just died prior to me finishing high school and there was no option to study, according to your system that would void me of the ability to vote- regardless of the fact that the "yeah bro lets get leik totally wasteddddd tonight" frat-boys would be able to.

It would be a system put in place for the wealthy, a group of people I tend to not care about at all. They've got what they need, I don't see how the decorations on their curb is more important than the 3 year old kid dying in the gutter. But that's what a government would be like.

As wwarped mentioned, it would be a lot like the Apartheid government, which was nothing short than an abortion on mankind. Where the rich and white matter, but the poor blacks get shoved aside into settlement areas as not to ruin the image of the white/rich areas.

I think the president on the other hand should have a high education, or all political figures that are running for president. The people just need to think for themselves. The kind of people that are a danger to the voting system are those who finished their college degree and sit in their room looking at gun magazines, getting stoked on killing some Muslims.

You see, you never finished your degree, but you are clearly able to think for yourself and have an opinion of your own, even if it is contrary to mine. And I will respect one more for having a different opinion that they stand by than someone who has no opinion at all and no mind of their own. You're far more qualified to vote than many of those whom have their degrees but couldn't give a fuck about politics. For many it doesn't even cross their mind.

Ideally I think a way to fix the problem would be to require a pre-voting exam, where every person needs to answer a questionaire on some of the running politicians political stances. If they do not get a certain % they are not allowed to vote. This at least ensures that they understand exactly what that politician stands for, or claims to. Again, it is all about ones understanding of what you're voting for. The way I see it, the previous US election was an obvious choice, you've got oppressive bigots in one corner who want to remove peoples rights on one hand, and you've got environmental nuts on the other. And I know that for me my freedom would take priority over everything.

Regarding war, I'm the most anti-military/war person you'll ever meet. I'm strongly opposed to the idea that soldiers are heroes or that it makes one a better person to join the military. Anyone can kill someone, especially when you're commanded to or when you're rewarded with the so-called label of 'hero'. I've heard enough first and second hand accounts of the things done in war and the way it's covered up by other members of the division. The military, like the police system in many cases is just a large gang which is run by the state. They have the power to do what they want, and as long as they cover it up they're fine.

I was reading on another forum about someone's dad who was in the air force and killed a civilian in cold blood at a bar during the Vietnam war. He was fined $7, which was given back to him by his division anyway, and he continued to serve.

I would tend to not vote for anyone whom has been in the military. It's a mind set that I definitely wouldn't want running the country I lived in.

I'm not saying there aren't good men in the military, I'm sure there are. But they've made a bad choice in my opinion, and one that I would refuse to support. Without getting into statistics on war and into a terrorism conversation, they often do more harm than good.

I'm also strongly opposed to patriotism. I don't agree with the idea that we owe our countries something, and that they do anything for the people. The government uses the people as chess pieces for their own gain and legacy. This is extremely true I feel for the military, where one can't drink until they are 21, but you can get your insides blasted out in combat for your country and that's okay. I tend to not support parents losing their children for government's gain.

The primary problem with the military in my mind is that it doesn't remove you from your 'corner of the world' as such, maybe physically it does. But it tells you exactly how to think, act and feel. It's basically just programming you to be and think how they want you to think. Having your own opinion in the military is a dangerous thing, you have to believe exactly what you're told and if you question anyone you're in danger. Any form organization (religion included) where it is frowned upon to question the commands given down to you is one that needs doing away with, because that's just brainwashing someone and taking away all their freedom.

Good lord that's long...

Edited to add: While the military is something I don't support in general, there are times when it's needed and respect must be given to those who took part (World War etc). But even then, it's often a corrupt 'organization'.

An embarrassingly low percentage of our population even
bothers to participate in the political process (taking the
time to be informed and vote) and that is without an exam!

Most college educated people are as stupid as high school
dropouts in their thinking and I blame that on the way we
teach people in schools and how we undermine it at home.

Specifically directed to epibase / Lane about war:
As Carl Von Clausewitz said:
War is an extension of politics by other means.

If I give any group enough well crafted words and physical
benefits (or promise thereof) I can convince you to kill any
one, including yourself.

Just look at the Secret Service who willing take a bullet for
the president or Kamikaze pilots or the native American war
cry Okahi, which means today is a good day to die.

Us & Them mentality is not new, and it is that thinking that
allows us to subjugate living things... be them animals who
we eat or people who we buy or rent for our pleasure. This
is why Buddhist philosophy culminates into the realization
that we are part of the same living thing, only then would
we have a reason not to promote or own position at the
price of another... oh wait a minute, I am getting a text

Really like this post, especially the last half. Just today I was in an argument with someone about that subject. I basically said that my respect and the title of hero is earned, and should not be a blanket thing for any person in the military. One thing they came back with was that I never earned the right to make that call because I had no control over where I was born, to which I reminded him of the inalienable rights all humans are born with, and that I have the right to whatever opinion I have. It's one of the things in the world fully my own--my thoughts. I don't have to "respect the uniform." Donning a uniform doesn't make one a better, more righteous, moral patriotic person.

NPS rangers wear uniforms, do they not?

The fact that you can associate the military with a frat house in any terms just boggles my mind. How can a veteran like yourself with such an extensive background of service and such a qualified opinion of the military do such a thing? Oh, wait...

The military is a sampling of America. There are liberals just as there are republicans. There are Harvard graduates just as there are people who can't even read.

The difference is, they have made a CHOICE to do something different when (9 years to this day) something horrible happened. Go ahead, you talk about it, they'll act about it.

Oh, can you do me one favor though please? Before saying that the military isnt too well rounded, could you just read this article (just real quick ya know) about this dead frat boy:

http://articles.latimes.com/...la-na-medal-20100910

Oh, and then can you read this article about this mindless drone:

http://www.aolnews.com/...7Csec1_lnk3%7C169793

After you're done reading those, could ya go fuck yourself too? (Sorry thats my frat boy mentality kickin in)

Interesting post and discussion. Just got a few thoughts (they only represent my feelings and not anything official relating to the US Army)...

First, I happen to be probably the most un-patriotic officer in the US Army. While patriotism can be a very good thing in certain circumstances and can surely motivate people to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, I feel it also enhances the "Us vs. Them" mentality which in today's era of modern conflict tends to prolong the violence rather than shorten it. There is no "absolute victory" anymore and thus both sides will continue with the violence until a workable, sustainable solution is reached. Yes, 9/11 was a shock to American and a great tragedy, but the 3rd and 4th order affects of it which we are now dealing with in Iraq, Afghanistan, and several other areas are much more complicated than simple patriotism can address. For the doing "more harm than good" part...its still much too early to tell.

For the college thing, while it can establish a baseline and a basic ability to think and write coherently, it in no way is an accurate demonstration of a person's intellect. Through high school, college, and now the start grad school I've always had a saying that I go by stating "I refuse to let school interfer with my education". Most of anybody's true education occurs outside of classrooms and can only be understood by the ideas in their head and not the various combinations of letters after their name. It's a very personal thing and one that cannot readily be categorized.

For the military being a collection of closed minded knuckle draggers, I can definitely see how people can get that impression. It's part of the organizational culture of any group whose ulitmate purpose involves "closing with and destroying the enemy" to be a little rough around the edges and maybe "frat-boyish". However, there are exceptions to every rule and some of the most open-minded people I have ever met have worn the uniform. I have even had lengthy discussions about the merits of the war in Afghanistan with my commanding officer (who also approves of my BASE jumping) so even through the ranks open-mindedness is still encouraged.

As far as not being removed from my corner of the world (except geographically)...I live in Germany but speak English every day, pay for things in US dollars, and most of my friends (besides BASE jumpers) are Americans...so yeah, you kinda have a bit of a point. But at least I'm only a couple hours away from the Swiss Valley and other sweet, legal jumping sights

As for the whole hero thing, I personally don't believe in them. Sure, there are people who put individuals in my profession on a pedastal and stuff for all the sacrifices we are willing to make but the issues are really too complex and personal to warrant any nice label like that. I could care less about "defending America" and "preserving freedom" or any of that other bullshit. I just want to do what I can to not pass on a world full of violence and conflict to my children and grandchildren (should I actually live that long) so they can enjoy other cool things besides fighting like BASE jumping legally in US National Parks and participating in the annual BASE expedition to the Hindu Kush. Fuck the politics and just have fun with what you got, do something productivish with your time on this planet, and keep jumping off of shit cause thats like crazy fun.

Cheers,
Brian

I only spoke about my impressions. maybe I only spoke to the most vocal...

also, a limited, or shall I say "focused" way of thinking allows incredibly effective action. just like sports teams must buy into a game plan, the military basically requires an aggressive, like minded posture to act with any sort of efficiency.

Frats have a tradition of hazing...
so does the military.

Frats encourage group think...
so does the military.

Frats select like minded people to join.
the military uses bootcamp to establish a similar way of addressing the world.

where am I wrong?


thousands of the military have sacrificed their lives over the last 9 years. has it done much good?

Reagan won the cold war by getting the former Soviet Union to spend itself into oblivion. the current war has cost billions of dollars. for what? got a quick, accurate answer? how's the drain on the treasury helping the economy? how well is the depleted military positioned if a REAL attack happened?

we have LESS freedom in the US thanks to all the added levels of government bureaucracy. we are robbed of our time by endless queues at airports, that routinely fail GAO inspections.

acting is NOT always a virtue. Reagan knew that when he simply withdrew the Marines from Lebanon. yep, a truck bomb killed many. people were outraged and cried for action. effective strategic thinking rarely mirrors mob sentiment.


yep. violence and anger before logic and reason. that is one of the common traits I've experienced from the vocal veterans I've encountered. maybe they are not the majority, but just a loud minority. I can't say.


ps
there are secretive, but highly effective, fraternities out there. several recent presidents were associated with one. just as you question MY impression of the military, do you have a valid impression of Frats?

You know how you get frustrated when 'whuffos' associate BASE jumpers as 'them thar adrenaline dummies are at it again. jumpin off them thar buildings again' gets a little frustrating? What I mean is, that whole complete ignorance of the sport while still making opinions that affect us (directly or indirectly). Thats how I felt after reading your post.




Umm, well, yes wwarped. I have to concede and agree with you here. The military does have to buy into the same game plan and fight the same enemy, um, aggressively. In my limited experience, non-aggressive war has just proved to be slightly ineffective.

Please reference:





Can you elaborate on these traditions? If you're talking about doing keg stands and streaking I joined the wrong military frat.

Also, please reference:

http://sill-www.army.mil/...t_Sill_Reg_600-3.pdf




Emm gotta disagree with ya here too me thinks. Just like any other organization, group think limits potential solutions that were previously unseen. Poor units with poor leadership (whether military, business or any other organization) encourage group think. I'll concede here too, I'd be lying if poor leadership didnt exist in the military. It does exist, as it does in the corporate world. However, good units with good leadership encourage the team to provide multiple solutions to a problem before picking the best one. Thats kinda what the military strives for (doesnt always hit it everytime, but its the goal)

Please reference:

http://www.au.af.mil/...rmy/fm101-5_mdmp.pdf

Is it perfect? Hellz naw. Is any business leadership and decision making process perfect? Nope




Well, I guess, kinda? Ya, 'bootcamp' (its actually referred to as 'basic' in the military, bootcamp is a term they throw around in those vietnam-era movies that you probably educated yourself from) is there to teach soldiers (and I use that term collectively to refer to all branches) the basic skills to survive in the military. For example: how to wear a uniform properly, how to march, how to recognize rank structure, the fundamentals of shooting so on and so forth.

Sorry, they really dont come out like these cookie-cutter robots that a lot of people (including, you, apparently) see them as. Again, you would know that if you actually, were, ahem, in the military.



Just about everywhere.





Ya know, we could argue that question quite literally for the next century because at the end of the day only time, and history, will be able to tell. I wish, however, I could go back and see what you thought the best course of action was on the afternoon of September 11th, 2001. If you were like 89% of the country at that point in time, you wanted war. You didnt care with who, but you wanted war. Unfortunately, these damn war things, being such a pain in the ass that they are, just really dont go fast enough do they? I mean, golly gosh darn it, I want them thar towel heads pacified ASAP and I want it done gosh darn pretty. And can ya make no mess this time? I hate them thar messy wars, makes me change the channel and watch my foozball on the TV cuz them messy wars are no fun to watch.

I'm sorry that the military action that has taken place since 9/11/01 hasnt been as fast and convenient as your drive thru experiences at wendy's.

But seeing as logical as you are, maybe you were part of that 10% who was thinking completely emotionless following 9/11 and legitimitely thought war was a bad idea. Odds are you were not part of that minority, but hey, who knows?




Well, Wwarped, unfortunately islamic extremists dont really operate in the same manner, or with the same motives, for that matter, as the USSR did. The USSR is considered in political science as a 'rational actor,' meaning roughly that it makes concious decisions that arent suicidal. You're smart though, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. As far as the military being a burden on the economy, considering it employs several million Americans, I'd argue that currently its pretty damn good for the economy.





Could you please entertain me with what your perception of a 'REAL' attack is? Because if it isnt spending years preparing, training and equipping men to kill thousands of innocent civilians and military personnel in the most strategic places of the country (i.e., the WTC, Pentagon etc.,) then I really dont know what a 'REAL' attack is. Or are you talking more along these lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dawn




If you really are going to use the fact that you have to spend an extra 3 seconds taking off your shoes and the fact you cant carry more than 3.4? ounces of liquid on an airplane as a cry against your civil liberties, you really are not worth my time in debate. AT LEAST hit me with the Patriot Act or something, I mean, COME ON??






Fair statement. However, I hope someone breaks into your home and when you call the cops they dont come because they're taking the time for effective strategic thinking on what to do.





Yes, violence. Crazy, crazy violence. Before I summoned the patience to write that post I had to put on my uniform, salute the flag then walk outside and punch the first 5 year old I saw in the face. I followed that by raping his puppy. Once the violence and anger stage was complete I was able to think logically.





yes yes, skull and bones, free masons, illuminati go on...



Umm, no, I dont suppose I have a valid impression of frats. But then again, I'm not the one making the analogies am I?

regarding frats:
YOU certainly took offense to the comparison of Frats & Military. thus you must have an opinion of what a frat is/does.

Soviet Union as a rational actor:
why compare the Soviet Union to radical islam? you missed my point. I was comparing the Soviet Union and it's decline to the US and it's current financial decline.

Economics:
the US spends billions each year in the war zones. some even props up our enemies. believe what you want, but I'd rather see the money spent at home, or taxes cut.

Public Demand for War:
if the public wanted war, they should have sacrificed as done in previous wars. maybe buy war bonds. they wanted none of it. in fact, iirc, the military had to lower the incoming standards to recruit the required troops. actions speak louder than words. by it's actions, the public really has not supported the war.

My Initial Opinion on 9-11:
to summarize, I advocated a Reagan approach and not an invasion. I laughed every time Iraq came up as a possible target. I have not needed to change my opinions.

Regulations:
the military has regulations against a lot of things, but are they effective in prevention? citing examples of violations is way too easy.

Robbery:
I HAVE been robbed. at the time, they took almost everything I had.

Real Attack:
one where the US is actually threatened. the recent financial meltdown harmed the US far more than the 9-11 attacks. I personally believe the US response has done more harm than the initial attack on 9-11. the US has been played like a marionette by those with significantly fewer resources. I'm confident you disagree.

we really don't see the world from the same perspective. feel free to believe you hold a more well rounded view than I. I will not belittle your opinions, I'm just trying to explain mine. I've been in the minority for years.

they'll realize it when they destroy everything and find out they cant eat MONEY

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.


removed PA, again. -- wwarped

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president,
and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human
beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally,
and individually responsible for the domestic problems
that plague this country.

I agree with the text above.

Also find it sad & scary that
most adults & college kids
can NOT tell you how many
people are in each branch
of their Federal government.

really? it actually runs contrary to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

the public, collectively, hires the elected officials. the politicians modify their positions to ensure they get re-elected. thus, they buy off voters. call it Medicare, tax cuts, tax deductions, or welfare, it is politicians paying the public for their votes. as long as the people value these payments, we will get these officials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...of_the_United_States

Not only am I familiar with the information
contained at the above link, I teach it to
ignorant college kids who slept through
it in high school, because it affects the
economic decisions of our country.

Data from the 2010 census is still pending
however I feel safe using 312 million as a
good estimate for the population of USA.

These people are INDIRECTLY, morally,
and collectively responsible for the many
shitty politicians who plague our country.

I personally believe as long as we allow
the politicians to run campaigns on TV
we will continue to be totally fucked!!

I think we should use other means to
determine our leaders - public debate,
IQ tests, logic puzzles, chess matches,
foot race, arm wrestle, etc. would all
be better than television commercials.

The photo above contains 4th grade mathematics.
Yesterday I heard two college students discussing
this problem, I stopped and explained the answer.

Ignorant citizens who failed to learn simple fractions
get to vote... and when they do it is usually based
on mis-informed rhetoric and emotion.

Hopeless

personal responsibility rarely begins by pointing fingers at others, barring actual criminal activity.

the general population likes to complain about the political class. but as you state, the general population makes little effort to learn and understand. they have no desire to question or step outside their local culture. they prefer to be lead, and told what to do. they also reward the politicians which provide handouts.

attacking the lame liars that infect the political class attacks a symptom, not the disease.

the Tea Party activists show that by mobilizing the electorate, the people can force change in government.

conservatives worked hard to get people of similar views elected to the Texas School board. consequently, their views will modify the textbooks used across the country.

the reformist mayor of DC got kicked out of office by angry voters. evidently, he achieved solid results. the voters did not appreciate his style.

active voters get results. blaming the politicians is just a way for people to avoid looking in the mirror.

imho.
(I've been wrong before.)

A well known quote;

The people get the government they deserve.

 
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Ben Franklin

"In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war* and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms*, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom—go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!
" Samuel Adams

"A man is none the less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." -Lysander Spooner

Hi Tony...I was wondering when you would be coming around.

may I ask where you are going with this?

are you saying that giving power to the people provokes tyranny?

are you arguing for a victim mentality? Woe is me, I'm screwed?

what do you propose to make things better?

Not as much going anywhere with it just throwing that out there and suggesting that the power perceived to be in voting is an illusion. An example being last election where the people voted for "Real Change". I doubt you can reform a corrupt gov't (redundant term sorry) through voting.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

and that's it? i was really getting into this, i even read the english paper. i know it's been a while since these posts, but i just have to put my pennies in the pot. i can't believe how close some of you guys got to mentioning the real solutions to the problems argued in the series.
i believe that ug6 is the closest, although he stopped just short of nailing it. when we realize that in about 20 to 30 years, the planet will no longer sustain the population of humans it will be too late to fix. notice i didn't say americans, muslims, whites, blacks, democrats, etc. but humans. if you open your minds a touch and throw out all your petty squabbles and silly self-identifiers for a bit and think for a little while, you'll see that this is the root problem of just about everything in the world today. i'm not going to cite any examples, or give links to back up this assertion, i don't really care what anyone thinks about this, because it's a fact, and as such, it stands on it's own.
every single human being on this planet is just as important as every other one. and that is to say that we all individually are totally worthless. until we as a whole see this, we're all doomed.
to prove this point, i'm going to ask anyone for the name of any individual whose death would mean that the earth would end.
the only way to really do anything about this would be to level the field so to speak and erase all boundaries between cultures and countries and people.
now you begin to see where the stumbling blocks are hidden. when over half of the population earns less than $1 a day and has no access to drinking water or food on a regular basis, you see a little more. and when you realize that you're not going to give up your shit so that people halfway around the world can have stuff handed to them, you see a little more.
we are no longer little islands, but a whole world and we are all going to sink or swim together. i don't have the answers, but at least i can define the problem without sugar coating it.
war in iraq? september 11? failing education? it's all bullshit. just more reasons to seperate us when what we need to do is band together. when we run out of food and water, we are all truly fucked. it's gonna be a bitch for a little while, but we'll pull through. or not.
remember, the founding fathers were rebels til they won.
that being said, i'm gonna go smoke. laters,

had a typo, sorry.

Hey, Sounds like you just got threw watching movie 'the Road' ??? . and you are highly influenced by post apocalyptic fiction .

& You can't seriously believe in your statement that , ..." in about 20 to 30 years, the planet will no longer sustain the population of humans " ???
I think Your whole Post is a 'mixed' dark pile of dog crap but with a Gypsy Fortune-Teller believability & twist view of humanity void of any future .

I don't know what are you talking about ? but it sounds like, If you just kill yourself right now you will save yourself all the burden you carry around with this gruesome self-manufactured knowledge.
You realize that no one can predict the future . And no one can see or predict any future ending for humanity & life on earth . You Know you have no fact but only a writings of mixed-up emotions ???

It gives me a headache having to read all your crap & I do mean a Post of shit psuedo-intelligentsia fiction.
You admit you have no answers & you are right. Your delusional fix for human survival is to all link arms in kumbaya harmony, ending/erase all boundaries between cultures and countries and people, with the world population working together as one happy beehive for the planets survival ??? You will need Disney Corp. to produce this cartoon.

As to your very last sentence of your gibberish. ..." that being said, I'm gonna go smoke. laters,"
What are you smoking ?
.

cigarettes, i don't smoke inside.
and the answer isn't all happy anything, it won't work because too many people are in it for themselves and nobody would sacrifice anything short term for the long term benefits.
the statement i made stands, with the population increasing at the current rate, we have at most 30 years before the sustainable resources(food, water) are no longer enough to keep us alive.
the reason i didn't bother to provide references to back up this fact is that anyone with internet access can provide "facts" that someone has written to support any stance with little effort. i'm providing food for thought, research it yourself and see what you come up with.
as for myself, i'm prepared. my family is taken care of. in about 10 years, i should be in a position to weather the storm that's brewing. i'm not a sensationalist, or apocalyptic, just looking at the big picture.
i hope i'm wrong, but that doesn't mean that i'm not going to prepare for the worst. i had this discussion with some friends just last week, and they were saying, "i'm not giving up cell phones and video games to go off the grid and live in a bunker", and i agree with that. i'm just going to have my little piece of land with a cistern and a well, along with a garden and a spot for hunting all ready to go. no use to do much more, just teach the kids to live off the land, and they actually enjoy that when we go camping.
i would encourage you to do your own research on the subject, though. don't make the mistake of googling anything, use trusted sources for your information, and put a little effort into it. i don't have to, i did it a couple of months ago for an assignment in one of my classes. the answer my group came up with was a little fatalistic, mostly involving population reduction. that's why i said that i don't have the answers, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

In my spare time the last couple days I been giving your last Post some brief thought and your logic has some flaws .
Leaving out in your Post all your emotion and personal view that is only opinion of how the worlds populace as a whole, and it's urgent needs and lacking abilities to pull together and fight for a working solution to human survival and avoid it's near future extinction .

Your future prediction of the world dilemma and statement of, ..." we have at most 30 years before the sustainable resources(food, water) are no longer enough to keep us alive ."

I just can not see it for truth. For water, the earth is 75% water and if there is a need . The simple motivation of thirst will initiate the will to cheaply refine and produce drinking water.
For food. The only reason right now some people on earth are starving and not in abundance of food supply . Are the few governments left on earth that rob there citizens of the abilities to produce and the freedom to achieve Self-Reliance that you and I are able to do being born in the greatest nation on planet earth in this tiny piece of history.
Plus the latest consensus is that there are at least twenty countries now in the world with negative or zero natural population growth . And 'No Way' to scientifically predict if more countries will join with this list or reverse with population increase .

So, as far as the population of earth dieing in 30 years from no food and water. I really don't see it happening unless it was some 'Unpredictable circumstance'. Like futuristic catastrophic upheaval in volcanic eruptions, tidal waves and earth quakes. Or possible the new age interpretation of biblical Apocalypse coming true that the earth will burn in fires of Nuclear destruction . Or maybe astrophysical science fiction like global nuclear winter when a large meteorite collides with our planet earth and we loose sunlight to grow crops.
As far as our own government in some far fetched premeditated plot or denying it's own American citizens the means to produce it own food and water to promote it's own population extinction in 30 years . Why ? . It is also no historic mystery that governments in world history have used starvation as means of control . I say, " Bring It On ", and the only thing needed to defeat this tyrannical bullshit is simple education because if history is taught then it will not be doomed to be repeated .
.

you make some good points, as a matter of fact, the only exception that i take to the post is that i didn't put any emotion whatsoever in my post.
in my opinion, it is possible to reverse this trend, if we act quickly and work together. do i think that's going to happen? no, i don't. do i think that we're all going to be wiped out by lack of action? not really, when the situation gets bad enough, we usually pull together and find a fix. do i think that it could happen? absolutely.
our (us) political system has been from it's inception with the tories and whigs nothing but a way to divide the people in order to allow a select few to gain. i have read that it's human nature to band together in a tribal system, mainly for protection and safety, and that's the core reason for the violence that permeates our society. it rings true if you think about it.
in theory, if we do nothing, the problem will essentially solve itself, when enough people die off due to lack of food and water, the population will have reduced itself to a sustainable level.
the whole point i'm trying to make is that this is a problem we need to address soon. i don't foresee myself being in too much trouble due to a little preparation and a skill set geared toward self preservation.
i could be wrong about the whole deal, in which case i'd be happy. then again, an asteroid could hit next week and we could all be dead, with no amount of preparation doing any good.

 

note that when Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, said that internal documents of some of the large US banks was going to be released soon that an Interpol warrant was issued on him.

Yes, it was all evil unbridled capitalism that led to the housing boom that ultimately led to the crash. It could not have had anything to do with government sponsored enterprises such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, companies that were built to promote "affordable housing."

 

Not only because of deregulation, but because the govt backed these companies losses. They would not have taken such huge risks on such a massive scale if they had no safety net.