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To start im 165-170lbs. Im using the same packjob as the jesse hall pack video. With anything over 2 second delay it spanks me so bad its actually ripped a bunch of neck muscles! Not sure wut do over than pack slider up... any advice??? Are trolls jus fast openers??? Am i way overloaded for a 245??? Thanks guys

What size pc are you using? Try another pack method....

I've never seen that pack job personally but what do you do with the nose? Also like said above what size pc. Pin or Velcro?

Is it anything like this?

Are you head low when pitching? I use the same pack job and have jumped it with a Troll 265, Black Jack 265 and 245. They all open fast but am usually fine up to 3-4 seconds slider off.

And what color is your canopy?

Hi there!

My exit weight is little less than 160lbs...
And never had any slammers with my Troll 245 DW MDV in base... Works really nice with slider down jumps and nice and soft with tracking gear subterminals/terminals!

I'm still packing almost like Adam Filippino in Mojo manual (from 1996 or 1997) ...I'm a bit old school packer, I always pack without clamps and any "hitech shit" ...and it works perfectly for me and my Troll :)

-Tony-

Ps. Check your tail pocket velcros... line dumbing might give you those slammers... and I also use quite stiff primary stow...

...and about PCs

Usual I use 36" ZP vented in terminal jumps with tracking and WS...

And a bit tight subterminals I use 38" (ZP vented)

Slider downs 42" vented ZP usual, if I go stowed

46" vented ZP for hand held...

Thats just my way to jump... its not absolute only right way to do... but works for me :)

Hopefully helps you with your slammers...

-Tony Vilko- BASE#818, Finnish BASE# 2 , FTF!

My 42" is my universal Pilot shoot for low and higher jumps. Try wrapping the nose.

Larger PC's cause harder openings on skydives because they strip the lines off the bag, resulting in out of sequence deployments.

This is not true on a BASE jump.

The only way a larger PC could cause a slammer on a BASE opening is if it somehow ripped the tailpocket open and caused line dump. In the real world, this hasn't really happened very much.

A larger PC used at higher airspeed will deform the pack job more as it is extracted. This can cause poor heading performance, increased chance of malfunction due to deformed packjob, and slower openings. It is unlikely that a deformed packjob will result in a harder opening--more often the opening will be softer with an oversized PC (because it's taking time to work out some of the issues caused by the packjob deformation).

I have seen 42" and 46" PC's taken to terminal repeatedly without unusually hard openings.

I've had this problem in the past on my Troll MDV 245. My pack job is fairly standard, starting from a pro pack. Once you've laid it down and finished tidying it up, pull the quartered slider hard up against the stops. I also use direct control on the slider (by concertinering the tape around the mesh and wrapping the bungee around that).

I use a 36" for all my terminal jumps; 38" or 42" for sub-terminal, depending on delay. My exit weight is around 185 lbs

Exercise some caution in copying others' practices on equipment that is dissimilar to your own - they may behave differently.

Incidentally, from what I can tell Trolls seem to have a reputation for being slower openers, if anything.

i have jumped terminal with 42" no problem...4 sec delays BOC with 48" no problem...works fine :)

Hey Tom, the last part of your post is fine but, but I must comment on the quoted part above. Larger pilot chutes will often give a higher snatch force but the opening of the canopy tends to be the same.

*Line dump* incorrectly gets blamed for hard openings all the time. The only stows that matter in terms of openings are the locking stows. The only reason the other stows exist, is to get them off your back and keep them away from flaps and appendages. Many bags only have locking stows with a pouch for the rest.

The locking stows won't just fall out unless the rubber bands break when the pilot chute yanks it out of the main container but that almost never happens. The bands tend to break when the lines get yanked out of the stows at line stretch under a heavy load.

The heavy load is caused when the pilot chute pulls on the bag, the canopy pushes on the bag's closing flap holding the bands tighter. So if the bag stays shut, the opening is as good as it is going to get. The remaining line stows won't make any difference.

It's basically the same effect as using a tail pocket. The lines in the pouch are not very restricted so they pay out with no effort. Many pouches do dump the lines out prematurely. Unless the person notices the Velcro is no longer mated neatly, the jumper is none the wiser. If the locking stow doesn't break prematurely, the opening is as good as it will get.

Hope that makes sense.

Ah, I see. And that totally makes sense. I'll readily admit that you have a lot better handle on skydiving gear than I do.

So, do larger PC's get blamed for the harder openings because they are more likely to break the line stows?

It seems like maybe both skydivers and BASE jumpers are falling victim to similar misconceptions.

+1
I think that very few people truly comprehend what has to take place to cause line dump. Or ever get to experience the world of hurt that goes with it.

No. Remember that most hard openings are only mistakenly blamed on line dump.
People forget that your canopy (skydive or BASE) begins slowing you down the second it lifts from your back. Therefore the faster you get to line stretch the higher your airspeed will be at the time your canopy begins inflation and therefore the quicker it will pressurize. An oversized pilot chute will result in a lot quicker line stretch and therefore faster pressurization.
Alternatively you may have a nice comfortable ride to line stretch and then bam the canopy is instantly inflated. This is caused by sloppy packing that allows the slider to descend prematurely. This is the single biggest cause of "Hard Openings" in parachuting and can be controlled in a number of ways.
It is very easy to identify the differences in the two stages and correct which ever one you determine it to be.
And finally I believe that most hard openings can be weathered by adopting defensive body positions that will reduce the opening effects on the body ie. opening head low will greatly increase the chance of whiplash.

How can it slow you down if it's still in the deployment bag? Wouldn't it have to wait until it's out of the bag before it slows you down?



I don't understand how those follow each other. Can you explain?



How can the slider descend prematurely if the canopy is still in the bag (or the direct/indirect stows are still on, for a BASE canopy)?



Totally agree.

What the hell? How does it manage to do that before there's any significant tension on the lines (those things that are connecting you to the parachute)?

The only resistance you will feel from your base canopy before you reach linestretch is the force needed to pay the lines out of the tailpocket and ping the primary stow. Do you really think that's making a difference to your airspeed?

At terminal velocity anything you drag behind you will slow your fall rate. Even a dbag will create drag. It obviously isn't going to slow you down a lot but it will definitely have an effect.


If you don't believe that the canopy has any effect on your airspeed at any point before inflation than this statement will never make any sense to you. I believe that most of the time the quicker you get to line stretch the higher airspeed you will have at that time therefore that faster the canopy will pressurize.

In this case generaly the slider would have moved before the canopy was finished being packed. Even an inch of movement from your slider down the lines before line stretch will significantly increase pressurization speeds. Why do you think people stow up their slider for?

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the bag slows you down as it drags behind you, and that therefore the longer the bag takes (dragging behind you) before reaching line stretch, the slower you will be going once it reaches line stretch? And that therefore the bag moving slower to line stretch results in lower airspeed and hence slower inflation?




The purpose of stowing the slider in the direct control stow is to keep it up in the pack job until you reach line stretch, thereby staging the deployment, with the slider descending only after you reach line stretch.

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. Are you saying that a sloppy packer is someone who doesn't use direct or indirect slider control, and therefore experiences premature slider deployment? I'd agree with that.

Sarcasm aside you agree that there is tension on the lines. Now it is your definition of significant that is debatable.


I bet that you will never "feel" most of the things that affect your airspeed during freefall, through out your canopy openning or during your canopy ride.

Yes. Admitadly more so on skydiving gear than BASE.

To a point. Obviously there is only so much difference it will make but it is still a step in the deployment.

So you agree then?

I am saying that a sloppy packer is someone who doesn't ensure that their slider is seated against the slider stops until they are at line stretch. Slider control is one way to ensure that.

And you won't 'feel' the infinitesimal difference in speed resulting from the friction of your lines sliding out of the tailpocket when it comes to your opening either.

this seems like a rather sloppy discussion.

it doesn't matter if the pc can generate 1000 lbs of lift, that full force will NOT be transferred to the jumper until linestretch (or container lock). stows are supposed to release around 10 lbs of force, iirc. thus, the jumper will be slowed by maybe 10 lbs of force from the stows. the jumper's weight will have also decreased since the bagged canopy will no longer be driving the jumper through the air.

stows primarily seem to encourage neatness. (reserve molar bags frequently lack stows.)

think in terms of BASE s/l. does anyone note their acceleration is less because the "pilot chute" is made of steel?




as for the higher speed -> quicker opening, without doubt. it's why the head down crowd insists on bellying out before pulling.

Go to YouTube and see any video with the other guy deploying and operator still falling. Deploying guy always stays at the same level as operator, and only lifts off when the canopy is extracted from the D-bag and starts inflating. I think it's a clear proof, that during line extraction PC and D-bag doesn't affect your speed with any noticeable difference.