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Or, the line-twists are so Low. tight as to pin-down your Head down with your Chin to your chest strap. Seen that.
but you are correct. after opening . 'Heading' is #1 priority with line-twists or with not. Climb-up and above them and Yank on something.
plus your slider-up and not in Deep-break setting. so your flying faster than a No-slider.
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How do you induce line twists on a skydive? I've tried and have found them really hard to 'kick into' I can a half twist (blindman) but when I let go of the risers to try and twist more I spin back. Do you do it with the pack job?

it is easy to pack line twists into a skydiving canopy. hopefully, you jump it shortly after packing so you remember what you did.

if you want line twists with ANY packjob, it's easy. do a centerpoint turn as you deploy. don't hold a heading. the number of twists will depend on the speed of your turn.

Don't try and climb above the twists - you won't get there: the lines are too slippery. If the twists are high, push your risers together and twist the lines to get them lower. Then reach above them and steer away.

A 180 with high line twists is about the worst you can get on a cliff though. Regardless, when you use such manoeuvres, you are going to hurt yourself - the descent rate of the canopy will increase rather dramatically when you start pulling C & D lines, and the turn rate is often quite slow.

maybe a stupid question,but when you are twisted you can not pull one off the break lines trough the twists to turn?
or it s to hard to pull it?

Falling back on my skydiving experience as I don't have a lot of BASE...if you were to pull on the brake line in significant line twists you risk "locking" yourself into a turn. The brake line will not be able to return to a non-braked position due to the twists. This of course would lead to all kinds of problems in either skydiving or BASE...

Have you ever had a Slider-up opening with Multiple line twist that was flying Strait-back @ a wall ?
I have and I did not fuck around. I went up as high as I could physically go and pull to change my Heading . Then I went to the task of untwisting & landing .
I do not think you have an understanding of Right & Wrong ? also distinguishing differences in the Two Different types of Slider-Up jump, Line-Twists .
If the Line Twists are way High & ' IF ' it is trapping your Slider above the Twist & preventing down movement. Or if the Slider is Down and Not tangled in & clean 'Below' the Line-Twist .
One is a much better and desirable scenario . Can you tell me which one ?

Also with your suggestion of Opening with line-twists & Unstowing the Breaks in line-twists in the other Post . I am not sure that is the best thing to do or #1 in priority in sequence of getting a desirable non-life threatening Heading in line twists . Go ahead and Pop the Breaks with multiple Line-twist (imho) is a Crap-Shoot. and your wasting valuable 'Time' that you will never get back and can not spare . Also if your Slider is above the Twist & you untstow your Breaks . You are an Idiot. As you my well be turning your Heading or Slow-Turn into a Spiral-Turn that may not be correctable after that bright move .
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First up, I don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but I don't appreciate your "know it all" tone. Anyway:

Glad to hear that you didn't "f**k around", but I hope by inference you are not accusing me of "f**king around"? Actually I have been in that very situation, with the slider above 3.5 line twists. Even pulling myself out of the harness a bit I couldn't even touch the base of the twists - they were so high. Besides, at this point my palms were getting a bit sweaty. Lines easily slip through your hands... and I had a relatively long 5 seconds (which isn't that long in the grand scheme of things!) Hence my earlier suggestion of pushing the risers together in such a scenario and, taking advantage of the canopy wanting to expand, one could twist the twists to get them lower before turning away. However, the reality is that all this takes some time whatever you do and, depending on how responsive your canopy is to rear riser inputs (my Troll is quite unresponsive), one may still hit the wall regardless.

I'm glad it worked out for you. However, I would expect that your twists were much lower than mine. My original comment was based on very high line twists; maybe your experience was quite different to mine? In addition, if you had enough time to untwist after making the heading correction, you must have had a comfortable altitude to work with; most situations I've seen you would have consumed a lot of altitude making the heading correction, leaving little (if any) time to untwist.

I think you may be confusing my comments with that of another poster. You are right, slider down line twists tend to be much lower, and can be made easier to deal with by jumping slider off rather than down (which is what i do). However, slider up or down, if your head is pinned down it can be quite disorientating (as already pointed out by another poster). Obviously having a situation with your slider below (and not interfering with) twists is better as the slider only increases friction between the lines, making the twists more difficult to fix. One thing I would say is that, given the height of my twists, my canopy was quite bowed - which I believe lowered my forward speed. So, when I did hit the cliff, the consequences may have been mitigated. Whilst I'm on the subject, I balled-up. stuck my knee and elbow out (had pads on) and held my head away (I was wearing a full face paragliding helmet anyway). The force of the impact was taken on my side. I ended up with bruising and mild shock, and spent <5 hrs in hospital. So I hope others might be able to use that experience for their benefit.

I never made that suggestion; another poster did. I agree; pulling a brake through a twist is a bad idea as it will lock and put you into an irrecoverable spiral dive quite quickly. Besides, 3 line twists and you won't be able to pull on it.

I totally agree.

We probably agree a lot, although I'm always hesitant to apply learnings from one person's experience with a particular system and setup to another with a different system.

 

+1 for testing and experimenting! always better than going by whatever XXXX says.

personally, I have trouble envisioning severe line twists occurring. in skydiving, I have seen a spinning bag (stuck, one corner catches, bag smacked inadvertently by an instructor, etc.) cause line twists. a bagless packjob should resist spinning. uneven shoulders might mess up folks jumping small, elliptical, 9-cells. that's not BASE. unstable at deployment? now there is a possibility and can lead to all kinds of issues.

I received a PM to split this topic off from the original thread in Incidents. it may or may not have been a factor and is easier to find in Technical.

dude i think he comes off like that because he does know alot! hes been around along time and seen shit youll never imagine!


and jumped with people u could never imagine jumping with.

so listen to him and be alittle respectful.

I agree regarding body position being of usually the most importance. My line twists which led to a strike several years ago were induced by rolling the nose tightly (and I mean all the way down the opening of the cell to the fold) and taking a sub-terminal delay; one side of the canopy opened momentarily before the other and the canopy surged around during the opening sequence, spinning up rapidly as I pulled in a track. Previously I had taken terminal delays with this configuration without isues.

I doubt if body position was a factor as I subsequently recreated the same conditions (except didn't pull in a track) and ended up with a 360 on opening. Jumps before and after without rolling the nose gave perfect on-heading deployments. My canopy was a Troll 245/265 MDV; your experience with another canopy may be different... However, nose-rolling and sub-terminal delays probably don't mix!

+1 .

Ray's tone on the internet can sometimes get weird, but I've never seen him come off as condescending in person.

And he really has been through the wars. He's been there, done that, seen pretty much all of it--the good, the bad, and the really, really ugly.


After opening, your first priority should always be pointing the canopy in a safe direction. Doesn't matter if it's lined over, spinning and on fire--point it in a safe direction first--then get out the fire extinguisher. The majority of serious BASE accidents occur within 15 seconds of opening under a fully inflated, flying canopy, and result from object strike. Our top priority after opening is to avoid these accidents.

Sorry for not posting reply back yesterday but was real busy and had a full schedule till I crashed & did it all again today . You are right, sorry I usually do come-off like a dick when Typing and sometimes in person my social skills are lacking .

What you typed
.. " After opening, your first priority should always be pointing the canopy in a safe direction. Doesn't matter if it's lined over, spinning and on fire--point it in a safe direction first--then get out the fire extinguisher. The majority of serious BASE accidents occur within 15 seconds of opening under a fully inflated, flying canopy, and result from object strike. Our top priority after opening is to avoid these accidents. "

That about precisely sums it up . Except for the WSjumping thing with it's Low-pull and proximity flying & dying . BASE jumpers dieing under a full flying canopy is big. Getting Line-twists really suck and with Me, all I can do is say 'What Worked' with the described scenario I used in real life . You and all anyone else can do. is the same. and that is the most important, So we can end-up here. And even though I am an argumentative prick at times. It is absolutely imperative that the discussion of this subject get regurgitated up on this Forum from time-to-time, as it is a big killer. I think there are a bunch of BASE jumpers out there that have not been put under that extreme pressure under canopy and really need to choose a route of mental preparedness to ready themselves. The Biggest piloting pressure they normally prepare for and have had is the 'Big 180 Opening' . You stack-on top that, Slider-up, Line-twists, Object avoidance Heading correction to the struggle for life and it is overwhelming and just screaming for pilot brain-lock .

Totally not getting into the Why or How Line-twists got there on opening . The BASE jumping Do & Don't when in Line-twist. Everyone is agreement of Heading as priority #1 . What the pilot does when Line-twists are thrown at him/her all depends on what the mental game-plan is and muscle memory that has been practiced till that point in time on a jump when it really happens .
I am Not in agreement of Un-stowing Breaks with multiple line-twists for a Heading change . After the Object avoidance and a Heading change. If you choose to go that route of Popping them, then that is the jumpers freedom of choice made by your 'Fast Assessment' of your multiple problems now facing you.
( I Think) Un-stowing the Breaks with multiple line twists and you might be digging yourself a deeper hole But luckely I never did it on any BASE openings with Line-twists and all turned-out well.. You definitely have a few serious choices to make after assessing your Heading after opening . If you have to POP the Breaks to make a survivable Landing while still in Line-Twists . Or Popping the Breaks & then trying to kick and pull them out before landing ?. Under Canopy where do you abandon your commitment in trying to get out of the Line-twists and put all into efforts to Landing ?.
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so..I m trying to imagine a scenario and prepare my mind in case off a 180 with line twists...

if you can reach above the twists,you grab some lines and pull...this is plan A...but if you can not climb up,you cant reach it....and flying towards the cliff...What do you do?

maybe trying to pop up the brakes pull one side a little bit,and after that,pulling the other one to not get into a spin...colud be a choise for plan B,...if you exercise it maybe it could work... like epibase sad


what action do you recomend for plan B?

For what it's worth I agree with Pendragon; In my 2 180's with line twists it was impossible to climb above the line twist to effect a turn on one side of the canopy. The lines were waxy and just couldn't be held. The canopy was relatively new so the lines didn't have that furry feel of an old line set. I had to kick out then turn the canopy. It scared the crap out of me......Thank god for long delays and big tracks

 
..."but if you can not climb up,you cant reach it....and flying towards the cliff...What do you do ?"

If you got Line-twist really far-up . You are pretty fucking Screwed . & I got no quick solution or magic answer .
NOT saying there is no out's . If you got to pull a Toggle @ that point then you got no other choice. Twists that far up into the upper line-groups & close to the top of Canopy probably has other influences that are in the mix for that to happen.
Almost all Line-twists are going to be within reach, or a 1-Hand/arm pull-up to grab & turn . I think that Line-twists being way into the top half of the Line length is going to be 'pretty slim' & Problems Way high-up with multiple Twists & your probably going to have influence of Slider trapped or influence of Static-knot induced Problem with Line-over. The Big spinning Mal. that people fear most is always the Up-High toward the top of Canopy, Static-knot, Line-over with Slider caught & 'maybe' No Line-Twists @ all .
I 'Never' had Twists that far up but have seen a few jumps and it was a pretty ugly looking canopy that was fought all the way down to the ground . The ones I saw. No One died from the the Ugliest canopy that they ever had to fight to the ground. That is because they did not Hit the object they jumped off of and fought to stay away.
You having to fight Multiple Twists ofter your Canopy opening are for the most part within Reach for a Heading correction. The biggest killer is what was said in the Post above mine. ..." Doesn't matter if it's lined over, spinning and on fire--point it in a safe direction first."
And That is it. The majority of people who get fucked-up are NOT overriding the brains & urge to kick-out of Twists. 1st thing people do is start to grab the Risers, push-pull & Kick to un-twist because that is the problem that is pushed in the face & easy to see and most dealt with Canopies. Time is lost and then when the Object is being pushed in the peripheral view. The time has been spent on the wrong priority.
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