Basejumper.com - archive

We have been talking about it for years - a wingsuit with the rig incorporated. Tony has been busy:
http://www.tonywingsuits.com/fusion.html

Although i have heard of individuals making their own (Pascal) this is the first I have seen in the daylight.

Is there any harness in it? Looks like not...

There is a normal harness inside the suit, the container is attached to the back panel of the suit.

wouldn't the sugar glider/ Jii wings compare ?

So container is regular (from well known brand) or original?

The harness on this suit was made by Tony as well, for want of a better example it looks like a stripped down tandem passenger harness.

By incorporated container it means just that - the container flaps are part of the back of the suit (again made by Tony).

The top surface can still be improved and this is what is being worked on at the moment. (as well as an internal PC pouch).

I am not who that guy is in the picture, but i hear wingsuit models get all the ladies ! mucho base

WOW, that is a pretty nice. I been waiting to see how many will try to take on this kind of sewing commitment to incorporate the two together. This could not have been a easy job to even get this far. Big Job for a small community that will fly it. Sounds like the work is just starting on the fine-tuning refinements ?
There are lots of good sewing going on out there but it takes people with good mental mechanical visualization to map-out & start cutting pattern like this going from the brain to the hands to make this toy fly and be user friendly.
I don't know anything on the forward speed on this suit but Holyshit !, That bottom surface area is FLAT & BIG for the airflow . Looks like some major hang-time if really you want to milk it on the freefall time.

.

Just wait, Ben E and I have been working on one for about 6 months. We should finish tonight!
Has all those features and a few more..

And what would be the advantage of a suit like this..?

-lighter weight from (not needing an interface, less material is used)
-better aerodynamics (the container can be made much flatter, and formed to the suit)
-less chance of mis-rigging and snags (the container/harness/wingsuit system has less removable attachment points, etc)

In my opinion the first two points are small things and third point I don't see as advantage.
While on the other side for me there would be some big disadvantages. And I also wonder how much the price will be compared to a normal set-up.

I remember I saw also a norvegian documentary where VKB made also an incorporated harness into their special suit, some more years ago...maybe they have been the first that made it..

This is the natural progression...

Maybe not right for you, definitely not
my next purchase since I have ZERO
wingsuit jumps but still it totally makes
sense why someone would want one

The tonywingsuit site says:

Smaller and lighter than what? and by how much?
Apart from the square of suit material at the back which is not required what else makes it smaller and lighter?

Surely the lack of wing cutaway system is a bigger weight saving?

How much more performance does it offer from the same suit with a conventional low profile rig? 5%? 10%?

There is already a long thread about unsubstantiated empty claims, it wasn't meant to encourage more

It's a cool project and kudos to Tony for putting the time and money into doing something that people have been talking about for years, but the fact that there is so much marketing rubbish being 'leaked' before the design is even finished reeks of PR stunt to help other sales.

On a side note the whole TWS website is a great exercise in marketing and very well done too, I particularly like the belt buckles, nice touch and the competition results. You'd have to be crazy to buy any other suit!

Wow, is anyone actually jumping that suit? It seems huge for BASE jumping.

yes

Really? weight is a big issue for those of us who climb stuff and jump off it. It may not be a big deal for people who ride trams and skydive off cliffs the whole time, but I would rather have a 5kg rig than a 10kg rig.

Aerodynamics are complicated, but an integrated suit could have extreme reduction in interference drag. I see that as the most important aspect.

I think he means that the improvements in weight and aero due to the integration will be very minor considering the disadvantages. You may even be able to get lighter and smaller not integrated variants from other vendors.

The gain V pain ratio is all wrong!

Current low profile rigs and high performance suits are no-where near 10Kg, more like 5-6kg with a 260' canopy.

Aren't tonysuits made of heavy material anyway, and more of it due to the huge surface area? My impression is that they would be heavier than the alternates.

The suits will get made, and the reps and sponsored jumpers will have them and rave about them. We'll have to wait and see how many people shell out their own hard earned cash on one.

There should at least be more thermals thanks to all the hot air!

Will there be any of these in the World Base Race? Let the suit do the talking!

but of course! I am not a huge fan of tony suits myself, I was referring to the overall design model of an integrated suit.

we do not allow prototype suits in WBR.

my x wing weighs pretty much the same than my v3.

Do you have documented homologation rules? Looks like this one is for sale to the public.

Website says: "The suit is in the final stages of testing, price and launch information will be released shortly. For further details please contact Tony."

To be fear to the other contesters, it should be a suit available to everyone long time before the event.

not sure i understand why this is. isnt the idea to be the fastest flying human? not the fasted flying human in a commericallly available wingsuit?

Well thats the pain in the ass. One day when you have rich fabric teams like Red Bull, they can have someone to build 20 000 usd suits to make sure they win every time, and the poor base jumper have to use last years production.

The other thing is safety for a event like this, so we do not end up with homemade suits with some last second modifications. Rip Patric!

Argument of Plus+ or Min.- a few percent up or down in design for integrated WSuit performance ?
An Integrated WS . Looks like this is more a showing-off of mechanical and sewing ability & also a time commitment to building this type WS project over 'possible' profit and commercial sales that might come from a Minute handful of pilots that would purchase this item ?. Investment vs Reward . (imho) the biggest reward is in just building & flying Integrated WS.
anyway, I thought that the biggest performance variation + - in flight was from the pilot and human body shape ? & for a 15% immediate improvement in WS flight would be to, Just cut your Head off @ the shoulders . HAha lol .
.

Well, I hardly jump without wingsuit and it's been 4 or 5 years since I was in LB. Even where you can go up by car I usally hike up.
Just saying, I like the idea and it might be a good thing for wingsuits in the future. Just don't think this suit will be much lighter than my V3/hybrid/trango225 set up. And I also don't think it will fly better than my set up because of the better aerodynamics

I just don't like the fact that you can't take your second rig and go make a second jump with the same suit. And every year they come up with a better suit. Imagine to find someone who is your size, jumps same size canopy and is interested in a set up like this? These are big issues for me compared to few grams less weight and less drag.

+1

also, if you were so inclined, you cannot legally jump that from an airplane or hot air balloon in the US.

you also can't change your mind at the exit whether to WS or not. i like options.

Today was a win, saw it fly...I say it ain't so much the arrow as the Indian!

pfft, if you want to, you will find a way.
as for the not wingsuiting- ask a certain short finn on how to do handheld jumps in wingsuits.

Perhaps a 3-5% improvement for starters if not substantially more. Just look at the fairings on an aircrafts landing gear where it meets the airframe. Consider what has gone into that fairing and why.

Apply this idea to an integrated suit/rig. The idea is performance, better aerodynamics, not weight savings.

If you could take a suit that flies 3.1 gr and add 5% - might be interesting. How about a suit that can be flown at 3.2 gr +5%...will be fun to see if it pans out.

So, what performance increase - gps or first hand observation - are you seeing in testing vs. a low profile rig? Small amount, major improvement?

That thing took off!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3RFa4bKfk

hehe... JB some scared while check pc on exit :)

flight is slow, but JB fly far away a road, make a loop and open by reverse way (it's not in video, because i use ContourHD)

http://www.facebook.com/...936044192&ref=mf


better video ;)

I'm not replying to anyone in particular, but to those who can't think of anything constructive to say, I'd just like to invite you to please talk all the shit about Tony Suits and their marketing that you want. But it looks a bit silly, considering that the following jumpers have all chosen, for no reason other than because they liked Tony Suits better, to jump one:


James Boole
Dave Barlia
Jeb Corliss
Luigi Cani
Andy West
Barry Holubeck
Dean Potter

I'm sure I've forgotten a few other excellent jumpers.

Everyone of those guys jumped 'other' brand suits before, and switched to a Tony Suit only because they like it better... not because they were duped by clever marketing. I've never heard of anyone yet switching from Tony Suit to the 'other' brand...


If more jumpers pulled their heads out and realized that safety, comfort, and performance are all more important than the popularity of a brand, or brand loyalty, then there would be a lot more WS BASE jumpers out there having a lot more fun on Tony Suits.

As for me, here's my 2 cents, my worthwhile contribution to this thread i.e. the reason I like my Tony Suit: I have massively more range and power than anyone jumping a V3. I have better glide, and I can start flying far sooner. And then, if I want to, I can steepen my angle of attack if I want to fly faster. It's twice as easy to fly, and ultra comfortable in the air. Oh, and when I'm done, I can reach up and grab my toggles without unzipping or cutting away. Can you? Do you understand why that's nice?

As for the Fusion, will any of us end up jumping one? Will you?
How about, who gives a fuck?

Thanks to Tony, and everyone else who is making contributions to the sport of BASE, for DOING something other than just creating more lousy internet drivel that people who actually want to know something have to sort through to get any information about the sport and its equipment.

The Fusion is interesting because it's a step. Maybe it's not a massive step forward, maybe it's not the solution to WS BASE, maybe it's not the next big thing. Maybe it's a step backward, or in the wrong direction. Time will tell. But now, it's evolution, in a sport that tends to experience progress at a glacial pace.

Thanks to Tony for taking the time to sew it, to James for having the balls to jump it, and to anyone else who wants to chime in with a suggestion to make the sport more safe and / or more fun.

Pete, I can't wait to see what you guys have come up with, I'm sure it's awesome. Ben has some rad ideas.

Cheers to all.

Yes Matt,

but there is a problem with the Tony X suit.
While all your friends do the normal "straight to landing" jump and try to manage 2 cars to come back from landing, the guy with the Tony just fly around the mountain to the start of the hike , and bring the car back ...

alone ...

hello,

confusion about the fusion. i always like to read about who and what is the best. so what to do? i would like to see a video or pics or somehting with a decent line on a ws base jump, you know something involving turns and shit and going places. stuff like that, stuff that make ws base what it is. and please also go far and to the car.

yes, very impressive list of jumpers, all 7 of them. can you plase ask them to uplad a video, i would like to see and dispell the greatest and best argument. or not post on here if the site is sensitive just show someone and then we can discuss and talk about it and our feelings also.

enjoy,

luka

Talking shit and calling someone out for spurious hype are two different things. That aside there was no need to use it as an excuse to post a thinly veiled ad for TWS

You've added nothing new, just topped up the hot air.

It's a fair guess that James is jumping TWS because ..um... he works for Tony! Some of the others you mentioned wouldn't exactly be in the who's who of wingsuit flyers. Besides there are always people looking for the new thing, to be different, for a local supplier, for sponsored gear etc.

To repeat my earlier post, let the suits do the talking! Lets see what the fusion can do. The video from facebook has unusual camera angles but it doesn't like like he went very far.

We've been down this road before, remember the TWS with the 7:1 GR? (you know the one that can out glide a cessna) Remember when every week there was a new TWS that was hands down better than everything else on the planet? Remember the mercury wing? these are the things that make me wary of new claims, not blindness or brand loyalty, is that so unreasonable?

All that people have been asking for is some info to backup the claims made. Without that Tony is doing himself a dis-service after all of the hard work done. All it takes is a scales and tape to say how much lighter and smaller the fusion is. Performance is a bit more difficult, but something should be possible.


Ah i can see it now, the new TWS tag line..
"Safer, more comfortable, better performing..
..but even if our performance isn't better we are safer, more comfortable, oh and more fun! yea! don't be crowd follower and jump "the popular brand"" kinda catchy...

is it really the suit, or the jumper?

I would think the emphasis should be put on the jumper, and their talent.

give a lame wingsuiter (like me) the best suit out there, and I'll still suck.


personally, I'd rather read about jumpers' exploits, not the gears'.

no.

no suit will make a poor pilot awesome. a good pilot can do well in an average suit, but the best performance requires both a good pilot and a good suit.

the gear and development in gear is of interest to many - just not the meaningless claims with nothing to back them up. this is the technical forum right? (or have i strayed into the marketing guff forum)

if the people that had the skills and resources to make suits spent more time doing so instead of wasting energy with false claims we'd be a lot further along. unfortunately money and ego is getting in the way.

I always thought that was for fuel efficiency? When you are talking about flights lasting hours, I can see them making a difference, but on a 1-3 minute flight a potential couple of percent gain doesn't seem worth the sacrifices.

if it was a 15% improvement, that would be a different story. but the performance gain is a secret.

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/dealers.htm

Luke H - PF dealer



edited to obscure last name, at the request of user LukeH -- wwarped

That's me! Doesn't change the fact though.

As you are around and have jumped the suit any details on the weight, size or performance gains?

Well it shows the ones doing the talking here have the same motivations, you and me included.

Prototype 2 is in the works, I'll update this thread when there is news.

James,

As you well know I supply myself and the huge WS population in Ireland that ask me for a suit (you could count them on 1 hand). I'd hardly say we have the same motivation. I'm not sponsored and pay for my own suits.

Making un-substantiated claims is not really the same as asking for further info on said claim.

I didn't say the claims were untrue, or that any other suit was better.

It speaks volumes that your only response to inquiries about the suit (not just by me) are met with such a response.

Jimmy Freeman is still on the dealers list......



edited to remove the entire last name, per user LukeH's request -- wwarped

aerodynamics get tricky. since everyone's body is different to begin with, I'd seriously doubt most numerical claims.

the people who can really skydive, track, wingsuit, etc. all know how a relatively insignificant body change can lead to dramatic results. thus, I expect relatively modest suit changes can also lead to noticeable results.

the best marketing would be to take a new design to the WBR. jump it alongside existing suits. see how it fares. if it is good, I'd expect a few orders from such a demo. treat it like a "guest" competitor at Nationals.

... I have. Wonder how he'll do in the base race having made the switch. If you loan me one of yours ill fly one!

Rarely in aeronautical engineering do you change one thing and get a 15% gain. More often than not it is a series of small 1-5% changes over time that end up creating that 15% change.

Some new designs and developments are a step in the right direction some are a step in the wrong direction. The incorporation of the container with the wingsuit in my opinion is a step in the right direction when looking at as solely a performance decision. For WS Base performance there really is no reason to have them separate. This is just one of those 1-5% leaps that will get us to that eventual 15%.

And just to note I have jumped and owned suits from most manufactures including one of tws new suits (Matt you are a dick for not adding me to that list). I have put them all to the test and there have only been a few that I have kept over time, they all have advantages and disadvantages. You just need to pick the one that suits you best.

-Shane Murphy

Luke, I've made more WINGSUIT BASE jumps in the past year than you have made BASE jumps in your entire life. Although I notice that according to your profile you've made 25+ jumps in the past 48hrs and you took down your list of equipment.

Buddy, let's go fly wingsuits from a mountain sometime. You bring your PF, I'll bring my TS, and we'll both bring GPS. Then maybe you'll STFU.

If you had actually been around the scene at all, and watched Tony Suits fly in the BASE environment, then you would be a lot more quiet right now.

I'll be in Europe all summer, so come on down.

I don't give a fuck about selling suits, there is ZERO money in it for me. I give my 'dealer margin' to anyone who orders a TS from me, as a discount for them. As for ego, we all have one bro... mine is the reason I felt obligated to chime in here and point out that until we see videos of you, you're just PF dealer posing as a regular jumper, and a shit-stirring troll.

-Matt

http://www.matttg.com/Proxy_Flying_Fools.htm

I am not a huge jumper but I watch the forums. Why is that anytime someone talks shit about Wingsuits made by Tony anger and rage comes out. As far as current profiles who has time to fill them out and keep them up to date. Everytime you hear from a TS guy they make it seem that Robi should just shut his business down and go home with his tail between his legs. I find all this banter very funny. It was only a matter of time before someone was going to call James out on going to work for Tony. Very inbred community aren't we. Come on we are BASE jumpers its not like we are out saving lives. Its something fun to do. Stay safe out there guys.

Your posts are starting to have a scary resemblance to what DorkZoneHero's recommends.

DorkZoneHero recommends:

Now I know you're not a sheep and don't blindly follow other people, so how about you stick to spouting venom about TWS competitors and people that fly their suits - that's what you do best. Attacking people that dare to question TWS's latest claim makes you look like a Muppet.

If people think I'm been talking shit about TWS that was not the intent, I'm saying all along - let the suit do the talking.

Oh and Tony, are you out there? Can you call the dogs off, I'm sorry - didn't mean to upset the apple cart. I'm actually quite surprised at the fuss caused, if you have a good suit it will shine - no worries. No need for the rabid attacks!


Take care - Luke

Luke, DZH is my hero! And I'm not kidding.

If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't give much of a fuck what you think: just don't expect to log on and start spewing shit about TS without me calling you out on it. Now you know.

Have a good one!

ok, I'm tired of reading this back and forth. feel free to take it to PM's.

I plan on unlocking this thread after a time-out. if folks start a new thread just to continue, I'll lock that one as well.

as far as my opinion, I like buying used gear. give me a good enough deal, and it really doesn't matter what name is on the label. if it's not a death-trap, why be snobbish when borrowing gear or getting a serious discount?

If anyone wants to discuss the costs/benefits of an integrated rig/wingsuit, feel free.

If you'd like to bicker, keep it in PM's.

IMHO - Many jumpers hold strong opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. Sharing reasoning and rationals, and not just opinions, tends to make for a better discussion.



ps
this is supposed to be a TECHNICAL forum. it's my job to try to keep it that way... I'd much appreciate it if y'all did it on your own.

I have seen the future coming soon to your local store

10 years ago I had 3 rigs for slider down, sub, and terminal. Why should it be any differnce in the future with wingsuit?

I'm sorry but I don't post much. I do tend to jump a lot though.
Fact: Tony has a new suit in the works.
Fact: Robi has a new suit in the works.
Fact: More toys for me to have fun with.
The rest is completely irrelevant...
Thanks to the guys spending time trying new stuff out.
I wouldn't be able to build my own suit but i'm so glad someone is because it's a hell of a lot of fun to fly.
One last thing about this thread: Seriously ????
gotta get up early for a jump. Better things to do.
A dopo.

Coo, well it's been a while since I've logged on (or jumped for that matter) so I see I'm behind...

Personally I think it's great that we have two or three designers (I'm thinking Robi, Tony and Loic) out there competing to innovate - some real progression will be made... Why care about who jumps what? Aren't we doing this to enjoy ourselves, at whatever level we so choose?

I have both the x is heavier and has no cutaway system..

Here are some photos of the 2nd prototype. My new GPS will arrive shortly and I'll start to get some numbers to compare with my X-bird.

The tray and pin cover are greatly improved but the design still needs a few tweaks. The BOC pouch is now internal (think blow up doll ).

Jeff N has been testing #3 in Switzerland, it has a few more refinements. Photos and video to follow, please be patient, no need for another flamefest.

I have 0 w/s BASE and only 1 w/s skydive, I'm more just curious than anything. Maybe it's my untrained eye but I dont seem to see a cut away system for the arm wings, is there one? Or am I missing it in the photos? If the suit does not have one, is it needed or can you reach toggles w/o unzipping?

BTW, the whole concept around this project is great. This is only the beginning, just wait some years down the road to see what this brings to surface. Keep up the good work guys and gals, lets keep these cool ideas coming.

Thanks in advance for the answers.

leaked pics of the new internal boc on the new fusion..
think blowup doll...

Looks like somebody else is playing with the idea as well : http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/..._159592_884623_n.jpg

Capture : "The futur is now....! Verso wingsuit with integrated BASE container Snekor, made by Stephane Zunino from Fly Your Body."

Thanks James. Looks very nice.

Do you know if the a leg pouch is planned for later versions?

The best feature ever on any wingsuit is the stress free wrist position design of the Vampire(wrist is not at an angle to the rest of the arm). I had asked Tony a couple of years ago and he was reluctant to put this on his suits as they would be inconvenient for taking grips while flocking. As this suit is unlikely to see much docked flocking, does that feature have a chance of making it into later versions or as an option?

I've been jumping #3 for the last few months. Compared to the regular X I see about a 5-7% improvement on glide ratio.

The concept has clear advantages and disadvantages:

+ : Lighter, lower volume system that offers a small performance increase.

- : System that is more expensive that can only be used for BASE, a one trick pony that you cannot practice with from the plane.

The suit is a joy to fly but I can't see it becoming that popular. It's only for dedicated wingsuit pilots looking for glide performance whereas the current vogue is for proximity and BASE races.

Tony is continuing the development and #4 should be in the air soon. As a product it is close to being ready for market but I'm not sure it will remain.

Either way it has been great to fly an idea that we dreamed about for so long. Lets see what #4 brings..

I threw up a video on the tony suits facebook site you can see the 2 suits being worn by some guy called andrew west and then tony himself...

http://www.facebook.com/v/484121370048

at 3.14 in movie is the follow up camera of the fusion in flight..the first few mins are a mixture of tony doing his 15th base jump..and a fusion test..

Sweet !!!!

am NEVER EVER getting into WS BASE but love watching proximity flying videos and also liked reading this thread. Met and jumped with "Jeff N" a couple of months back at Elsinore when he was working on his XRW project http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5NEb84spm0. was shocked to learn that he has to test the suit on a BASE jump, and not from a plane/balloon...whew!
RESPECT to him and all those who are furthering this sport in some or the other way.

was funny, before knowing his name, while chatting I showed him Jeb's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgKiAooWfsU on my iPod and was saying "look... isn't that so cool?!?!. Jeb is flying well!" .... and he calmly with a smile said "yeah, I filmed that"

haha ..... very cool guys we have in this sport! Keep it rolling ! and no fighting boys!

PS: Do check the XRW link above if you havn't come across it. Wondering if that would be possible on a WS BASE. umm why not??... got to see some pictures of a Tandem BASE happening at Perrine last week, I think.

PPS: Do not take my question seriously.

I think you've been in Italy too long! What does "close to being ready for market but I'm not sure it will remain" mean? Sounds like the idea is getting mothballed?

Is 5-7% over a suit with the exact same wing size and shape and a low profile rig or is the wing design\size\placement different?
Do you have any idea how much difference a low profile rig makes over a standard rig? I've heard people bandy about a figure of 10% but don't know where that come from.


P.S. Nice glasses!

As long as the aviators are included in the price I can see it being a huge success!

I think that it will launch, a few will sell but then the novelty will wear off.

I could be wrong though, maybe glide performance will come back into fashion..?

The results were compared to X-bird /LD2. The Fusion has a different "bottom skin", made possible by the internal harness.

I believe it was the VKB who did tunnel testing that proved the benefit of the light weight rigs, there was a site with photos and an explanation if i remember correctly.

With Espen kicking everyone's butt following the shortest path(or best glide) strategy at the Races, I am not sure I understand that sentiment that this will be a novelty item.

3pin or anybody who watched the XRW project video he posted a link to... who is the song by in that video??? i'd love to get it and sorry for being off subject :) if somebody knows it just PM me please.

oh yeah and id like to say thanks to everybody putting their time, effort, money, and well being on the line to progress the amazing world of wingsuits and base in general!

it said

team alliance "Here we go"

can't confirm now as this is the 'team alliance' page as myspace is blocked for me now but google tells me this http://www.myspace.com/teamalliance

thanks dude! cant see alota stuff on my phone. theres probably a way but my phone is a bit smarter than me still

+1 im wasted but I still think this is the best post on here

OK...my last post on this off-topic


I came to this one on my Android. And I can even play the streaming song. Have fun.

Here you go... Here we go..

http://www.myspace.com/.../here-we-go-26512631

Sorry for being offtopic and asking here instead of dropzone. But do they use freebags on their canopies? is this a common practice in crw?

I will have to pass on that question to some CRW experienced folks here. Sad I missed talking about some technical stuff about gear with Jeff though.

When I saw Tagle packing it was the usual skydiving stuff but a crazily small handkerchief size canopy :-). I did not notice anything different from a casual look. Their project has been covered in the November issue of Parachutist. Read about some special modifications they had to do to the front risers to adjust the trim.

of course it is!
there is even an industry building around it, similar to the folks fishing for golfballs.
mexicans going through the surroundings of crew busy dropzones...
poor guys, as they have to cover quite some ground, you know those crew people don't exactly pull low.
on the other hand- a bridle, pc and bag is quite pricey so that kind of makes up for it.

if only freebags were really free

haha


Dang! Had I known I could have collected some bags for my paraglider reserve !!

so much trash in the sky and then on the ground. :-P

hopeless.

that's what i thought too.. i'll go and have a look when i'm there in march.

3pin: thanks

Edited to delete the even more stupid part of this post

Why does any of this matter? Aren't all wingsuits the same? You put one on and off you go...