Basejumper.com - archive

I have not BASE Jumped yet and had a question: Has anyone considered just flaring and turning with risers only? Have no Brake lines at all? I can see with skydiving where you have a main, reserve, and time (unless you enjoy pulling at 2.5 or below).

Thanks!

Danny Marsh
Tacoma, WA

Death is constant - what you do with your life is the variable that you control.

That is standard training for jumpers.
Take care,
space

So a BASE canopies without brake / control lines to prevent a line over malfunction are out there and it passes the common sense test (and not something from the Bad Idea Fairy).

Thanks!

TAZ

No, but landing on the risers with one or both brake lines and toggles trailing out behind the canopy is typical after an intentional or unintentional release of the brakes on a slider-down or slider-off jump (and after cutting or releasing a line in a slider-up jump too).

The problem with what your suggesting, I think, is that the brake lines are most often those involved in a lineover because they're the ones nearest to the tail. You could imagine a canopy with no lines there at all, but then I would expect the D lines to become a problem (now being the lines nearest to the tail). The situation might even be worse, since without brake lines the tail is now free to move around much more during deployment. Additionally, anybody who's landed a canopy on rear risers can tell you that while it's very workable, it's not the control method anybody would choose. BASE landings often require very fine control on landing and the ability to sink the canopy in. Both are very difficult (or impossible) on rear risers.

Finally, I see the lineover problem as being largely a solved one. You use a tailgate to prevent them (an it prevents them so well that most jumpers have never seen a lineover when a tailgate was used). And if the tailgate doesn't work, you release the toggles (either using the line-release mod on a slider down/off jump or WLO toggle or a hook knife slider up). Suggesting that one always fly a canopy in the "no brake lines" configuration seems like a way of making the 99.9% of your jumps where you don't have a lineover just as miserable as the 0.1% where you do.

I wouldn't want to use just risers to flare all the time. Too easy to overdo it and stall.

Absolutely makes no sense whatsoever! This is a theory based on complete ignorance of how parachutes work.... This is beyond bad idea fairy...

Wow, thanks for your explenation! I really appreciate that you take time to explain it all..Because it's so grounded and well explained, you really informed the rookies!
More experienced people like you should react this way. The world would be better off!

Thank you very very much for teaching us a clear lesson with al those grounded arguments. Really appreciate it.

Where does it say that mfnren has a responsibility to teach anyone ?

if you have any skydivers (which BTW is a very good pre-req to BASE jumping), you would figure out how dumb your question sounds.

go ask Sangi.

Who's Sangi? And no I'm not going to ask him. And yes I do understand it's not a smart thing to fly a canopy without brake lines. And yes I do have skydive experience.

But you know what I got taught when I was young?! There is no such thing as "dumb questions". Also, this is the Beginners section of the forum.

Probably Danny was curious and posted his question.
Base283, Base736 and Kiki32 were pretty clear and I think they gave a good and clear answer. The way mfnren replies just doesn't make any sense.
I guess I'm just disappointed to see people react like mfnren does. Sounds like a form of arrogance, which I really didn't expected out here.

gentle reminder...

management desires this forum to be warm and fuzzy, so please limit the harshness. people should be free to ask questions.

thank you.

(that said, I still hope interested newbies take advantage of all the resources out there. they present themselves much better when they develop basic knowledge elsewhere. it could be on their own, at a dropzone, etc. it shows respect, and they are more likely to be treated well.)

questioners show more respect when they ask appropriate questions. walking up to a chess grandmaster and saying, "so who goes first?" probably will not engender a friendly response.

it is always best to know a system well before one tries to improve it. the OP's question indicated a lack of experience under a parachute. (good luck finding any experienced jumper that wants to give up their brakelines!)

respect is mutual. it should be shown by both sides. Vid666's reply did have an arrogant tone (thus my previous response to it), but the initial question sounded very inappropriate as well. knowledge can never be given, it must be earned. the OP seemed to take too much for granted.

it is one reason we encourage lurking before posting. (it would help explain the Sangi reference.)

thankfully, several jumpers had the patience to respond positively. they deserve credit.

True.
Still, who are we/they to condemn someones question.



True. Alot.

I'm glad we agree on a couple key points.

regarding:

BASE jumping tends to occur out of sight. the activity demands judgment. only each jumper can decide if the conditions are right for them. no one else. thus we ALL must refine our judgment.

PLUS: good friends will try to correct others when they are going about things poorly. no one wants to attend to a broken friend.

condemnation? nah. wake up call? certainly.

no one is paid to answer questions either.
BASE is dangerous. no one wants to help another just enough to become a statistic.

Dude, even in the "Beginners Forum"
we BASE jumper will be ourselves.

You think words on a forum hurt?
Try broken bones and surgeries!

+1

We probably agree on more than a couple..


Do you really think so? If he post's those questions on this forum...what does it take to give him a wake up call?




[backtoblackbecausethatsgoodenoughforme]
I think my lack of language to clearify myself, and the fact that probably your testosteronelevel or narcissism made you do this post, makes me not get hurt by your words.
Oh right, and ofcourse the fact that I had surgeries, brokenbones, and worse.
Thanks!
[/unbelievableiemphaticalydidntwanttotriggerthiskindofdiscussion]


Yeah, I think I'm done.

"So a BASE canopies without brake / control lines to prevent a line over malfunction are out there and it passes the common sense test (and not something from the Bad Idea Fairy)"

I answered the question...I did not deride him, just said it makes no sense, wasn't an idea based on knowledge.

Take it easy man, maybe you should have asked why it is a bad idea instead of your smart ass remarks...

Why is it a bad idea? Because ram air wings require weight to be suspended underneath them for gravity to force air into the nose and create a wing. If there is not tension across the canopy, it will not fully pressurize. Watch videos of people throwing or losing their brakes and you will see what happens. The problems if you take away the brakes and make the tail of the canopy at the D lines are, one, it increases the aspect ratio, making the wing less docile and more prone to stall. And it would still have the same problems associated w/ the tail lines going over the top of the canopy. Also by just using rear risers, it pulls down on both the D and C lines, effectively collapsing half the airfoil. Which is one reason canopies stall more abrupty when flaring w/ rear riser. Brake lines keep tension on the tail of the canopy, but are not full weight bearing, so when you pull down on them, they do not collapse the canopy the same way pulling on risers does.

I am not an expert, if any one has anything to add, please do so and correct me where I am wrong...

I think this is probably a good idea. If you get your panties in a bunch because someone has the audacity to contradict you in an online forum over a question that is clearly lacking in rudimentary knowledge of the workings of a ram air canopy, what happens when someone calls you out at the exit point for improperly rigged gear and you don't feel that they were warm and fuzzy enough? Do you call them an asshole and jump anyway? We understand that this forum is for beginners but "beginner" doesn't imply willfully uneducated. Grow up kiddo.

Funny how people get their panties in a bunch just because I get my panties in a bunch!



Just for the record, I like warm and fuzzy...who doesn't?

Oh and no, I wouldn't. I'd just call you an asshole.



I'm glad you agree!



Right on, Hampton!

This a beginners BASE forum, NOT a beginners to common since forum. And yes, there is such a thing as a dumb question. Grow up.

You are the current odds-on favorite for bounce bingo, all canopy flying disciplines included. Congratulations!