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   Im looking to buy a skydive canopy that I can use and fly in hope to translate those learned skills to BASE. Im 6 foot 2 in and about 190 lbs (and losing weight after a knee operation). Ive read a WL of .70 is what Im looking for, but what design or style would be closest to the flight and feeling of a BASE canopy that I can dive and deploy during terminal. Im just looking to improve my flight skill and accuracy during skydiving for a better skill set when its time to BASE for a prolonged life and career.

You dont have to go terminal, do solo hop and pops with your canopy, you have the air to yourself and you can get out of the habbit of flying a skydiving landing pattern.

A big square F111 seven cell like a BASE canopy. Raven IV would do it. A BASE canopy would do it and has down-right pleasant slider-up openings on Cessna clear and pulls.

You can also get older student sized rigs cheap - I paid $700 for a Javelin J8 + Raven III reserve.

questions like this crop up often.

did you read this thread?
if you did, I have nothing to add...

What you want is a CHEAP rigger approved canopy, so you can blow your $$ on a BASE rig and FJC at a later time. Also consider you may still want to skydive after hammering out those magical 100-200 minimum skydives prior to BASE. You would want a canopy that is FUN to fly so you keep coming back and building your skill set. Time under canopy is still time under canopy.

That's just my opinion so it could be totally wrong.

 

I havent thought of it that way. It makes sense tho.... Kinda like motocross racing, I went for the big fast "scary" bike when I learned back in my very younger days. It only helped me to handle sketchy situations better because it forced me to step into that "decision during desperate times" mode. Thanks for the food for thought. I think Ill go that route. I guess this is a great hobby/life to take other lessons and apply.

Being used to landing in deep brakes.

Throw in low turns, a few backwards approaches on high-wind days, and deep brake accuracy approaches onto hard ground (like using your packing mat as a target).

The stall point takes less toggle to reach slider-up than slider down, although you should be able to do things by feel like you do with the clutch on a standard transmission so that's not a big deal.

With a starting altitude of 2000 feet not 200 feet you'll get that dialed in a lot quicker at the drop zone.

I usually jump a Samurai 105 at density altitudes up to 9000 feet and being able to stop swoops consistently in the middle of the pea gravel wasn't enough for small landings areas. Classic accuracy practice under my Fox 245 in my big Javelin (J7 or J8 - I've had it a while) did.

Having seen skydiving BASE jumpers break bones in situations they shouldn't have (like one vertebrae, pelvis, and cocyx on a low turn which was not flat enough), other guys with 10,000 jumps being unable to stop in a generous 50' long landing, and experienced skydivers who landed in trees in spite of having 100' to work with skydiving canopy time plus what people pick up BASE jumping is not enough.

This doesn't mean that you want a big container/main as your only skydiving gear (that would not be very exciting), although a few weekends doing classic accuracy is a fine idea before you jump into smaller landing areas.

It's fun too; like playing pool.


Bad move. Start where Brian Germain recommends. Learn to fly the thing landing up-wind, down-wind, cross-wind, up-hill, down-hill, with low turns at 50 feet and post-plane out, and with speed inducing maneuvers. You'll learn more and be less likely to get into trouble. Later you can sell your first main for what you paid less $1 a jump in depreciation (unless you got a good deal when you bought it, in which case you might turn a profit) and get the next size.

 

when (not if) you wreck your "porsche" or "scary bike" you are def going to get hurt.

when you wreck your "land rover" youll probably walk away.

advocating equipment beyond your skill level to place yourself into "desperate times" to develop quick decision making is moronic at best.

good luck.

But you all aren't in the sport of commute driving land rovers on the highway at posted speeds are you? if you don't put yourself close to danger I feel you'll never know how to react. I could be wrong though. when the time comes and I have a mentor then I guess thats when I learn for real....

so if im going rock climbing, and want to free solo a wall, should i always practice with no rope?

what could i possibly learn without being close to danger?


good luck.

I partially agree. I believe in using a good skydiving parachute is the way to go for skydiving. Skydive a lot, have fun. Don't be timid under canopy but don't be stupid either. Build your skills methodically.

After a number of jumps, borrow or buy a cheap used raven or something similar and practice using in a manner that will be beneficial for base.

People with 200 skydives and 5000 skydives occasionally pound in for stupid reasons. Most often this happens by jumping a canopy they're not familiar with, in conditions they're not familiar with. Take losing a toggle for instance. Time and again people toss the other one. (not a good idea) Now they are flying with risers for the first time ever. When it's almost time to land, an excessive flare at 10 feet causes a stall and a back landing. What would have been a better Idea? Simply not tossing the other toggle then flaring with one toggle and one riser works better. Eventually you might need the skill.

I went back and forth with a 27 Xaos 78 and a BlackJack 240. The Xaos gave me reflexes however it did not provide good accuracy, stalling, and flat turn training. Sure it crosses over but only due to actually practicing on the correct canopy.

What really helped me with BASE canopy control? Doing a BASE jump,totally screwing up by trying to fly my canopy in a manner I shouldn't have ... and getting away with it. That made the decision to fly accordingly very easy.

What am I trying to say? Don't fly into tight situations without preparation. That's about it.

Good luck

Deep brakes and a classic accuracy approach are the best way to have safe landings in smaller landing areas. That's arithmetic, not opinion. Making them your standard approach in larger areas just makes getting it right where it counts more likely.

Picture an imaginary world of hypothetical situations where you don't have to flare and you have junior high physics with no acceleration since it makes the math easier.

You make a jump ending in a typical 50' long landing area with a steep drop-off and boulders in front and trees at the far end. Everything goes well and you're 50 feet above the landing area set up for a perfect landing halfway between the two sets of obstacles.

Using the skydiving full-flight approach with your your BASE canopy loaded at .7 pounds/square foot the air speed is 22 MPH. With a 2.2:1 glide ratio you're moving forwards at 29 feet/second and approaching the ground at 13 feet/second so you have 3.8 seconds left until you land.

There's a 5 MPH wind guest towards you for four seconds.

Unfortunately, multiplying 7.3 feet/second by 3.8 seconds lands you 2.7 feet short thus running you into a boulder. Ow.

Using the deep brake/classic accuracy approach you're in 2/3 brakes going about 15 MPH. The glide ratio is 1:1 with 15.5 feet/second of forwards speed and descent rate.

The same 5 MPH wind gust happens.

You let up on the brakes and land dead center to the applause of your BASE jumping friends (this is a fantasy world). In real life the math is harder (but you don't have to think about it) and there's no cheering but you're more likely to avoid injury.

This also works for tail-winds although you go deeper into brakes instead.

I started with the standard skydiving approach while BASE jumping (it worked consistently putting canopies less than half the size into pea gravel pits) but switched to classic accuracy approaches after landing short on a steep boulder covered hill side and landing long into trees on either end of a 50' long landing area.


With wing loadings up to .9 pounds/square foot under F111 seven cells that aren't ragged out flaring correctly from 3/4 brakes produces comfortable tip-toe landings on hard ground just as soft as 1.9 pounds/square foot under modern ZP ellipticals at full-flight.

Higher wing loadings under both canopy styles probably work but I haven't personally tried them.


We're talking about skydiving, which he knows a lot about, because you don't need 200 jumps under slow F111 seven cells before BASE jumping and skydiving sized + shaped canopies are a lot more fun in that environment.

In this case, the relevant document is his current Wingloading Never Exceed chart.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf


Lots of drop zones don't care what you do on landing as long as you stay out of the pattern. While there are lots of fun possibilities most of them don't apply with BASE gear.


Sure, you obviously need to move everything down. A flat turn is good. A flat turn at 50 feet is relevant.

and they can be done with small canopies as well. jumpers do not have to stick to large 7-cells. sure, the big & slow canopies are more forgiving, i.e. tolerate crappy technique. you'll refine your technique better after advancing to a non-optimal canopy.

(and yes, I have landed canopies loaded above 2.0 without acceleration near the ground.)

DZH makes a point to explore the flight range of your canopy. don't be afraid to be creative. expand the number of tools available. don't fly like you fear your parachute! sub-optimal techniques (rear-risers?) add value.

Nope. Glide ratio on small skydiving canopies increases until just short of a stall.

Example: Extreme FX 88 2.1:1 at full-flight, 2.3:1 at 1/4 brakes, 2.8:1 in deep brakes.

The simplest way to observe what's going on is to fly with bigger canopies. Within reason (105 and 190 with same weight pilots; bigger difference work with cross-braced designs that have more bottom end) you find that you pretty much match their glide ratio although you've got a lot of brakes applied.

Using brakes with a head-wind is similar to a classic deep brake approach but not the same thing.


I agree that wouldn't be much fun; although when it comes to BASE canopy skills smaller ones don't translate. Fortunately, when starting from a skydiving background those are things that you can learn in tens of jumps not hundreds.


You won't learn deep brake approaches when the equipment can't do it.


I've landed canopies at 1.8:1 from half brakes near the ground but that's not a deep brake approach.


Right. You should be familiar with what all the controls do to a parachute.

 

If I had to do 200 skydives on a .7 wingload, Id probably slit my wrists of boredom long before I ever reached the ground.

If you had to do 200 jumps with a .7 wingload, you'd be proficient at back spins, flying backwards and stalling the thing for 1000 feet. By stalling, I mean taking a wrap and trashing it. Even then, you'd still get bored.