Basejumper.com - archive

many in the US do not like how the government is working, and get quite angry.
the public school systems ARE government entities.
many kids fail to get an education.

in a RI school district, the 4 year graduation rate is 48%.
it looks like they chose to fire ALL the teachers.

I liked this quote:

48% is an embarrassment.

(for more, google your favorite news outlet. or see The NY Times article..)

thoughts?

If you look at studies done that compare the level of mathematical education in different countries, the US ranked below Slovenia, Lithuania, Cypress, etc. I agree that the US government run the schools, and the last thing the people who run the government (for their own gain, NOT the countries well-being) want is an educated populous. They want to keep the people dumb so they fall in line, so they are steadily decreasing the level of education.

keep the people dumb so they fall in line

Same tactic has been used for years...

Just remember how preventing slaves, women,
etc. from learning to read had been used for years.

Also note how in public schools that the kids are
ONLY given about 6 months of total instruction on
both the Government AND Economics. Sad.

There has been a constant downward spiral of the education system in America over the past
five decades. Funding has been cut, teacher salaries are surely deficient compared to what they are charged to do in their roles as educators, arts, sports and after school activities are almost nonexistent. The emphasis (or lack of) on science and math is a primary reason why Americans are behind in these very vital related industries. Language and communication education is at a pitiful minimum requirement. Secondary language is often only offered to high school students, perhaps middle school if you are in wealthy and progressive enough district. Still they are too late and too little to allow a student to really grow into a new language. People ask so much of our education system but are so unwilling to give more to avoid higher taxes. We claim we are a nation of leaders, we sure do not educate our young with the same pride.

amazingly, i went to a public high school in a poor area of south carolina. i took 2 years of french and took 6 AP classes and was able to get out of year of college.

They're doing away with tenyer around here, seems like somebody has had enough. There was an elementery school teacher who had his tenyer and got "released" from his contract because his kids were "not up to par", so he brought a 38 to school, and after the kids left he shot the principal and vice-principal.

I say do away with tenyer, fire the old lazy fucks who dont want to teach but are content with a secure job and hire some new young well "up to date" educated teachers and bring back the "PADDLE"!

in recent years, two different school systems teachers threatened to strike. they complained about being underpaid.

I ran a few simple calculations based on the numbers in the paper. the average teacher was making in the mid 50's. the average person made less than 40k.

these teachers were not producing outstanding results either, but they wanted more money.

I fail to understand why...

 
Every thing here in TX seems to happen at or bellow the state level. I almost wish it was handaled on a federal level. With as many pit falsas that would intale it might rase it above some of the petty bullshit it is subject to at the moment.

I went to pubblic school here in TX. Middle class naberhood, nothing specal. I feel I got a decent education. The biggest failings were with me not what I was offered. I've never been able to spell for shit but it wasn't from the lack of effort to teach me. What hurt me the most was not where I went to school but the fact that I didn't really get excited about learning till the last couple of years of high school. Collage was where I really started to learn.

When Tom quit the shop he went out and got or is getting his teaching degree. He's working as a sub right now in Austin. He get's too see the whole spectrum from the poorest to the welthest districts. He's worked from the inner city all the way to the out lieing subberbs. The stories are amazing.

Texas schools have never been at the top of the list. So a few years ago they passed this "No Child Left Behind Law". Improve the schools, great. But some of the stuff that got incorperated in it... They came up with, I think they're called modifiers, but here's how it works. I was bad at spelling so today they would say that I have a spelling disability and put a modifier in my record. what this would basicaly say is that Lee has a spelling disability so from now on he should not have any points taken off his work for and spelling or gramaical error. Another fav is "has diffaculty compleating tasks on time". That one removes all time constraints from your work. Turn in your home work three days late? Fine, no points off. Even better, no time limits on your test. None. Not even on the SAT. You can spend all day working on it and it can not be counted against you. When he was takeing classes getting his certificate most of the class was about these modifiers and how to appli them. Timmy has problems writeing? Then you shuld allow him to record all of his home work rather then makeinng him write it down. It just goes on and on pampering to every weekness. Some of these modifiers are very popular. Parents go out and find doctors to certify that their child has these issues. They are a huge advantage. You almost need them to be compedative on the honer roll. I'll leave it to you to conclude what this does for the children, and the standards...

They started implementing standards by which they judged schools. All fine and good but because it only focased on key areas all else was frogoten. Math, science, english. Good priorities but when they saw this the schools virtualy droped all funding for every thing else. They learned to work the system, teaching only to the test. Tom was a History major so he can't find a permonent job in his very low priority field.

But even with all this some schools were still haveing a 60% of higher failure rate on the TASP test. The one the schools are judged by. I'll get to some of the issues with the students takeing the test later, but be advised it's a really easy test. If you speek english, are not functionaly retarded, and attended school at least 50% of the time and managed to stay awake for 50% of that you should be able to make an 80, I think 70 is passing. You see how bad I am and I passed the english section, so please, I don't want to hear any excuses. And some of these schools are running over an 80% failure rate. It's multipal choice. Even if you guessed or answed all "c"'s all the way down you should be able to do better then that.

Some of the schools, no dissaplin. None at all. Disaplin problems is one of the things they are judged on. So some of the schools have just stoped. Example. One princaple was tired of getting a bad "repoert card" and decided that he just was not going to suspend or exspel any student. The only way you will be exspeled, or suspended at that school is if you break a very short list of rules that are out of his hands. It includes things like rapeing a teacher, bringing a gun on school property or selling drugs. Basicaly the only way to be removed from school is if the police take you away in hand cuffs. The students have no problem standing up in the middle of class and screaming at the top of their lungs, "Fuck You, Fuck You, Fuck You. I'm going to fucking kill you. I know where you live. I'm going to fucking burn your house down." to the teacher in the middle of class. And the teacher can't do shit. he knows if he sends him to the office the princaple will just send him right back. There are no consoquences what so ever. arother fav is, "Fuck you. I'm not takeng this test. You can't fail me. They'll just can you ass." You see some of the schools have stated fireing teachers who have low grade point adverages. They don't dissaplin the student they disseplin the teacher who can not dissaplin the student. So the all doctor there grades.

One school was doing so poorly that they brought in another superintendent who specalized in ways to masage he numbers of the school. The first thing he did was make all the classes AP, advanced placement collage level, classes. That's good for like one point higher on the GPA. So a C is like a B. But at the same time he dumbed them all down. they're AP classes, all of them, but no one even bothers to take the AP test at the end of the year. I'm not sure they even offer it. At the sae time he declared that no teacher may issue a grade of less the 50% on any test or assinement. Don't hand in your home work or take the test, fine, you still get a fifty. That along with the structure of the gradeing of the final says that if you do no work all year long you can show up and take the test and pass.

Tom was brought in to help adminester, I think it was the TASP test. They had to go through and fill out all the names ad other infomation for all of the students. They couldn't trust them to fill it out them selves because this was the big one that all of their jbs rode on. In the past they were running like 20-30% that wouldn't even fill in the dots for their name. Tom was monertering like a hour and a half section of the test when five minites into it one of the students comes up and hands in his scan tron. Tom was just stareing at him like, what the fuck, how could he think he could cheat so blatently. Then he looks at the card. He looks a it again and turns it side way. It read FUCK YOU colored in sideways. That's not uncommen.

You get the basic idea. I'm tired of writeing and frankly I'm getting depressed.

Lee

There's nothing wrong being beaten by them, they're not third world countries. AFAIK they also mainly have a governmental run education system so the question should rather be "why does it work for them but not for you?".

Florida is similar to Texas in many ways, some of them are sad.
Our mandatory standardized test is called the FCAT and there is
so much anger over it that the people who work on it are in a
secure facility in an undisclosed location.

I usually start my college classes off with a few minutes of free
flow discussion, typically I ask, "What did you hear in the news
that relates to economics or anything you found interesting?"

A few times this prompted heated & lengthy discussions of the
FCAT by classes of community college kids (most ages 17-21).
The few really bright ones said the test was 'so easy it's a joke'.

The other kids ranged in opinion from 'it is a tough test but fair'
all they way to 'it is nearly impossible' and my favorite one,
'my sister has straight A's but can't pass it'.


After they start winding down that is when I offer my opinions.
I am all for testing... Some counties in Florida waste time and
money lobbying to prohibit Darwin's work or to apply warning
stickers on science books or care more about Billy-Bob's high
school football career than if he can read, rite, or do rithmatic.

I then explained to them that an economist's way of evaluating
something is to perform a "Cost Benefit Analysis", which simply
methodically weighs the costs and benefits from a choice.

So I ask them, don't you think it costs the State of Florida a
lot of money to create, administer, and grade the tests?
Now think about what are the possible benefits???


OOh, and if little Suzie can't pass the test that is aimed at the
bare minimum knowledge for her grade level then she does
NOT really deserve to have all A's.

Average across the entire populace, including unskilled labour? That's not a fair comprison.

What do they make compared to the average graduate?

I'm not sure I really care. merit in a free-market economy is based on your value, not necessarily an education level.

yes, the two can be linked, but high level of education does NOT ensure someone communicates well (a much needed skill set for a teacher).

do you really think people who get doctorates in Old French Literature all have 6 figure jobs awaiting them upon graduation? (some might just hope they just land a job.)

why should an incompetent/barely competent graduate make more than an average worker?

(personally, I think kids are getting a great education in the current environment. teachers, parents, politicians, wall street power brokers, and unions all teach the young how to manipulate the system, but they fail at traditional education. they concentrate on fairness and not achieving.)

So it was completely pointless of you to bring up average salary at all, since you're talking about the value of a teacher, not the value of any other job.


So what?

The level of education is a prerequisite, so if you want to bring up averages, bring up the averages of the set of people you're talking about.


Seeing as how I mentioned neither doctorates, nor French literature, nor 6 figure salaries... how 'bout you take a wild guess?


Heave away at those goalposts son, heave away.

Is it really your assertion that the average teacher is an incompetent?

Heave away at those goalposts son, heave away.

Ha ha Thanks for the laugh

it doesn't look like it, but in case you want a discussion...

a free market economy is about exploiting competitive advantages. access to a natural harbor, access to natural resources, a better idea, a better organization model, etc. all are competitive advantages that get exploited.

an education is a potential competitive advantage that can be exploited.

you may view an degree as a social contract where someone is "guaranteed" something. it is not. it merely represents another opportunity to be grasped or squandered.

(instead of finding a productive competitive advantage, too many people manipulate the system to find one. I view them with the same regard as ambulance chasing lawyers.)

life is not fair, and if it were, it would be difficult to find a competitive advantage on which to build a free-market system.

in case I failed to place the dots close enough for you, I'll try to relate on a lower level with an example...
Jed Clampett found a fortune by discovering black gold on his property. was it fair? nope. did he cut a "fair" deal with the oil folks? no clue. he may have been raked over the coals and given a pathetic royalty.

Milton Drysdale constantly tried to work his competitive advantage of being a banker to the country family. he preyed upon their perceived naivety. he even secured them a residence next to his to work the relationship.


where am I wrong?
care to teach me and demonstrate your worth (if you are a teacher), and point out where I'm wrong?
or will you choose to mock?

you're call.

(Green feel free to chime in!)

or put another way...
you feel to believe teachers deserve more money because they have an education. education is valuable.

but what if teachers fail to educate their students?
what if teachers only manage a 48% graduation level?

aren't these teachers denying youth the same opportunity they claim for themselves?
aren't these teachers robbing children of a chance to advance?

should teachers be rewarded for effectively robbing from their students?

wwarped, you crack me up dude. Also
economists and capitalists prefer the
term Utilize over Exploit.

YES, there is a strong positive correlation
between education & income/employment.

This means on average a person with more
education typically makes more money and
spends less time unemployed.

However, there are some exceptions and
plenty of anomalies to this observed trend.

Exceptions: the return on education drops off
for workers with general doctoral degrees
compared to people with master's degrees.

This is primarily because the former typically
work for government agencies/universities while
the latter typically work in the private sector.

Anomalies: for example plenty of professional
sport athletes can barely read but will make
more in one season than many of us during
our entire careers.

Now back to the topic at hand, please find
attached some photos of The Clampetts.

but a correlation is not a birthright, guarantee, or a sure thing.

if someone grasps the opportunity represented by an education, they will likely end up with higher income. expecting higher wages based on education alone places the cart in front of the horse.

new degree holders and sports draftees have the something in common... potential. if the athletes fail to meet the potential, they get cut. if teachers fail to meet potential, what then?


Utilize?
Exploit?
my bad.

I'm almost afraid to ask why you had such quick access to that playmate photo...

I'm almost afraid to ask why you had
such quick access to that playmate photo...

http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi

Google has an Image search function.

For example -> nude midget

Returned the attached image.

correlation is not a birthright, guarantee, or a sure thing.

Correct and frequently said as:

Correlation Is NOT Causation

Even sung by Soul Coughing on one
of my favorite albums: Ruby Vroom.

I would like to believe that if teachers were compensated more there would be more competition amongst teachers for those jobs. More talent may consider education as a career where they wouldn't currently. If a teacher isn't performing at an acceptable level (whole other argument) then a better hire is probably waiting to fill the position.

Don't get all defensive then throw it back on me mate, I'm only responding to what you put in front of me. Talk sense, and I'll talk sense back. Accuse me of wanting guaranteed fortunes for obscure liberal arts PhD's and I'll mock. Clear? Then let's continue.


Ok, so then the only worth any person have is what they can exploit themselves? So why on earth did you bring up average salaries as evidence that teachers don't deserve more money?

If the teachers went on strike and succesfully got more money, then the system obviously valued them higher than the level of pay they were previously receiving. What you or me or anyone else gets paid is irrelevant.

I say that the market tends to value educated people more highly than non-educated people. So if you want to bring up average salaries, though apparently you don't anymore, you should bring up the average of the relevant group.


I responded to your post about groups of teachers who "weren't outstanding", not about the ones in the OP. Keep your ducks in order.

Possibly, though I think in the UK at the moment the recession is doing that anyway!

you use the term "tends."

gee, don't "averages" provide the data behind your "tends?"


as far as...

when someone utilizes a competitive advantage, they try to separate themselves from the pack. they seek the benefits created by excellence.

teachers in the US never brag about innovating new teaching methods, faster learning, more robust learning, more quantifiable learning, etc. these would be admirable competitive advantages.

in the US, teachers prefer the non-skilled worker tactic of unionization. unions tend to treat everyone equal with little distinction between excellence and sub-par performers. they discourage individuals from seeking a competitive advantage.

much of the current wage scale in the US relies upon unionization. it leads to a sense of entitlement and rewards for existing, not for excellence.

if teachers assert themselves via unionization, I think they have a lot in common with non-educated workers. comparing teachers to the non-unionized, educated cohort seems far more inappropriate.

wages of doctors, lawyers, dentists, vary dramatically in the US. some individuals seek to maximize their income. others sacrifice wages to maximize the satisfaction of helping others. these choices tend not to exist in a unionized environment.

that sounds great, and for most of my life I'd agree.


I'm currently wondering if we would be better results if we cut salaries...

- if the schools are failing, the extra money is apparently adding little value. why not just save the money?

- many people shop for jobs that pay better, not because they find the task rewarding. it's hard to get quality work from people only interested in a paycheck. lower the wages and those people will thin out. as long as teaching relies on interpersonal relationships, it will always be difficult for the mercenary types to excel.

- I've seen too much instructor drama on dz's. I cringe at how it would increase if unionization and tenure got introduced.

Sure.

But it is you who needs to make up your mind about whether averages are relevant or irrelevant. At the moment you're ping-ponging between them depending on which works better as a counterpoint.


Are you sure? Stuff like that desn't tend to make the news, so how closely are you paying attention?

huh? I believe I HAVE been consistent. the problem might lie in my presentation, in your interpretation, or a bit of both.
thus, I see your criticisms, but not your thinking.

care to offer YOUR thoughts?
it's hard to learn if you offer nothing...

I'm open to learning, what ya got?

How? If value in a free market is based on value (your words), how is it relevant to bring up the average wage (your words) of americans across the board in order to decide how much teachers should be paid? Unless you think that teaching is a job of slap bang average worth across the entire spectrum of employment including educated and non-educated alike.

Well if you want to make the US miseducation system worth a damn you'd have to privatize it. The whole problem is that it's gov't-run, so of course it's only a tool of social control.

http://www.youtube.com/...t#p/u/14/bdISPrMP7e4

Also on sidenote any talk of 'free market' doesn't apply to America because it's not a free market economy (hasn't been since early 1900s).

I'm not an American and I have some problems understanding some of this. I would love if someone could explain it to me.

Every time something that you guys don't like comes up you blame your government and always conclude that the less the governmental interference in your lives the better everything will be.
When looking at the western world the US is the country by far with the least involved government, most private schools, only country without a governmental health program, by far the lowest taxes and so on. Still you are worse off than all the countries you compare yourself to.
If less involvement by the government is better, why aren't you guys miles ahead of every other country in the western world?

Thanks Jo for an alternative voice of sanity from outside our little world here in the U.S.

I would say perhaps there's some misperception going on. Now this is shooting from the hip, but I would argue the United States government is/was the largest most powerful and coercive government Earth has seen so far, with probably more spending than anyone else. I also don't know anyone who attended a private school. The natural evolution of social organization is towards greater liberty, and you're not going to get that under big government, same as if you have mafia "protection" for your business, having more mafia invlovement won't help you out.

I also don't know anyone who attended a private school

I had 6 years of Catholic school (private).

The natural evolution of social organization is towards greater liberty

Sadly, I disagree

I want more liberty but most organizations increase their
rules and reduce member's personal choice/liberty as they
grow in number and power.


I think the biggest reason so many things in America suck
right now is due to our 'Culture'. There is this pervasive
sense of entitlement where it does not belong.


Everyone wants it now, internet, cell phones, microwaves,
and 100 channels of cable have warped their minds to the
point where few people posses any patience.


Everyone on their cell phone, even while in line at a store,
even cops while driving, even the UPS guy while delivery,
and the attitude that MY child MUST have their cell phone
in 2nd grade so I can get hold of them in case there is a
terrorist attack, FUCK THAT, I lived through 3 Mile Island
without a cell phone, sat on the steps of a public school
waiting for the white trash baby sitter to pick me up.


Oh and don't even get me started on Reality television


Racing to the bottom and sadly America is winning.

We're number one in obesity, divorce rate, and lawyers per capita!

Careful Tom....you're starting to sound like an old curmudgeon!

Seriously though, I think you're right. Far too many people believe the world owes them a living, and far too few know what work ethic means.
As for being materialistic, I'd say we take the cake, bigtime. So much so in fact, that a majority of the stuff that people simply MUST have daily is made in China. They own us, yet consumerism and a touch of greed has had the masses blind to this.
Doesn't feel like Liberty, does it?

On a somewhat related tangent, why hasn't anyone figured out where the money went from the first bank bailout? Seems like it disappeared into the ether. My guess is that China saw the writing on the wall and stuck their hand out demanding payment on some of our debts...thoughts anyone?

I bet we are taxed alot less than these "so-called" better socialist countries you speak of.

tom PLEASE tell me you banged some hot fuckin catholic schoolgirl chick back then? or was it a stupid all boys catholic school?

I was a virgin during 3rd through 8th grades,
but during high school and community college I
still knew those same girls, saw them at parties,
and eventually got to take care of business.

Honestly more than my share, I think it was
because my phone number was same for 10
years - this was before email and cell phones.

Cannot forget number one in gun shops per capita. I just remembered to call my fat lawyer to divorce my fat wife....