Basejumper.com - archive

Hello everyone. I am an amateur paragliding pilot, and have no experience BASE jumping. As fun as paragliding is, I would also really like to get in to BASE. I do not have skydiving experience, nor a BASE rig (yet). However, I have paragliding gear, including a reserve chute.
My reserve chute is 20 gore, apex pull down type, hand thrown (no PC) with a 3.5 second deployment delay. It has a rather long bridle (~1.5-2 m), which I'm guessing is to make it deployable from any orientation.
I just had it inspected and repacked by an FAA licensed skydiving rigger.
I'm wondering if anyone considers a professionally inspected/packed reserve chute to be more reliable than a round water BASE canopy for bridge to water jumps, or at least reliable enough to be usable for such jumps. I have seen static line paraglider wing bridge jumps, but I would never trust myself to pack the wing for it, nor do I have a static line container for my wing. I would also think that a reserve is more reliable (paragliders are quite bad when it comes to line tangles). Of course, I'm not about to jump off the bridge unsupervised. I'm just trying to figure out if its halfway sane.

Don't do it! Just get a BASE rig and BASE specific training. I also paraglide and BASE jump. I would never BASE jump my P-Gliding reserve.

What failure mode would you expect, jumping with a paragliding reserve?
I can't seem to think of anything specific, except for the slower deployment time. Assuming I throw the chute immediately after jumping, I would expect full deployment between 50 and 100 meters from jump. The PC-free deployment also sounds appealing, after all the PC failures I've read about.
In addition, just out of curiosity, would you keep such a reserve on you for BASE gear jumps, to use as a backup in case of primary canopy deployment/inflation failure?
All of the BASE canisters I've seen seem to be 1 canopy canisters. Do you know of dedicated BASE canisters with a cutaway pin and a backup? Ideally, I'd prefer to jump from objects high enough to give me time to cutaway/deploy a backup.

Your best bet then would be to get a skydiving rig and jump from an airplane!

I have seen it done on video. with a apex pull down as well as a rogolo type reserve. problem is even though the river is large, from the center of it you still can drift to either side and impact ground. PG reserves are built to make a pilot live through a glider malfunction, getting hurt landing on the super bouldery talus areas is a high probability.

It makes sense, but skydiving has no appeal to me. BASE jumping appeals much more since it lets you feel the speed. Otherwise, I'd just stick to paragliding. It also has an advantage over skydiving in not requiring a plane ride for every jump. I would much rather BASE jump with at least a little room for failure.

so you want the thrill but dont want to take the risk...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

That's great. I was worried that if I do this I'd be the first person to try it. Landing probably wouldn't be as bad if I used my dirt biking crash gear (assuming I don't sink like a rock). Do you have any video links of the jumps?

That video is seriously awesome....

do it, get video, post it, be ready to be treated as a hero, a zero, or both.

B.SA.S.E -"a little room for failure compared to skydiving?

I hope I understood you correctly.


IF skydiving does not 'appeal' to you, then perhaps the paragliding.

I'm not e experienced person-but dude,
you've got to skydive=and keep current in it, if your going to B.A.S.E.

Sure Raven's as well as Stratoclouds-a military reserve (perhaps?) have been used for B.A.S.E. but after you pay your skydiving training, jump lots, buy B.A.S.E.
have been used for B.A.SE
(IMHO)

"Landing probably wouldn't be as bad..."

You should really be thinking about jumps you can repeat, not jumps you can "get away with", especially with the limited knowledge you have. Also, we call them containers, not canisters. ;) Also, consider what Calvin has to say, he tends to know what he is talking about (about paragliders and BASE).

I would not expect it to have a total failure. Do you intend to use it with a paragliding harness?


By pitching immediately (which is not usual for those jumping rounds into the river) you are subject to a lot more drift...landing in/on the rocks will not be fun.


NO. It is a BASE jump...you do not have time.


There was such a system made...but it is used for intentional cut-aways more than for a "backup."


Then BASE may not be the best choice. There are tall objects, but few pull high enough to have time to evaluate a mal, cutaway and deploy a reserve.

BASE (and parachute mals in general) typically involve much higher speeds than paragliding mals. The overall mass of your paraglider (even if its a total mess after a collapse) is enough to slow you down considerably...and you were not already moving fast. In BASE, you were already moving quickly, and the amount of fabric over your head (if any) is considerably less....OK...I'm tired of typing....people tend to do what the want to do in this sport...so do what makes sense to you...you may get more jumps in if you follow the tried and true methods though.

I strongly reccomend you do not do this.

how did you plan to deploy? were you going to use the pg harness and just jump then deploy it without a glider?

PG reserves are VERY VERY VERY small, usually a pilot is spinning and going down very slowly when they deploy, and the glider helps slow the decent.

if you do do this, know that everyone else who knows a lot more about this told you it was a bad idea. you might get away with it, but still a bad idea.

I'll let you use my base gear, it is way safer and you can stand up your landing.

We dont burn down your paragliding sites. Dont burn ours doing something stupid.

I should laugh out loud here so I will just a little bit. Ok, I'm done. He asked a question. He doesn't know so educate him rather than call him a retard... in so many words or less.

--------

x0mb0c0m. If you're being sincere then:

The canopy is little. It would have to be put into a base rig and have a pilot chute added to it. You need to take a delay so you have no chance to land on land. I don't know how that canopy is set up since it's designed to be thrown out by hand. It probably can but I've no idea if it can be put on normal risers.

You already know how to fly a ram air so jumping from the perrine with a ram air BASE canopy in a real BASE container isn't out of the question. It's been done by paraglider pilots many times.

It would be a start.

wasnt calling him a retard, or stupid. Just trying to make the point that paragliders are more protective of their sites than we are of ours. (really!) and that they should keep that in mind when coming to one of ours, especially a place like twin.

Plus I dont know if one riser will handle the opening shock from a freefall.

Thank you for the offer, Calvin.
I'm thinking of using an ultralight PG harness (Gin Yeti)
without the glider. I would deploy in standard PG procedure, pulling pin, throwing it clear, and waiting for it to (hopefully) inflate. My chute is supposed to have a ~5m/s descent rate for my weight (100kg/220lbs). They're supposed to deploy in under 3.5 seconds from a 30m/s initial velocity.
I suppose I could do a static line jump with my paragliding wing, if I find the proper static line container for it, and find someone who can pack it so that I won't die.
I would be happy to jump with someone else's gear, but I'm at 220lbs, and way over the weight limit for most people's canopies. I'm hopefully going to buy a rig for my weight in the next few months.
In any case, my reserve is not particularly new , even though it passed inspection/repack, so I may jump with 2, or use a new one.
I guess I'm starting to lean toward a static line jump with a paraglider for my first try, but don't want to rule out a reserve jump yet.

you either suck at trolling or suck at life.

5m/s is only 16ft/s, but having landed rounds on the ground, I can tell you that it's very unpleasant, especially hanging from a single riser.

BTW, if your reserve takes 3.5sec to inflate from 30m/s initial velocity (i am assuming vertical in this case, as you are launching from the bridge), that translates into 67mph, which will START your 3.5second deployment ~3.5 seconds into freefall, leaving you just 2.3 seconds too short to survive.

numbers may vary, but my rudimentary math skills and uncanny common sense suggests this to be a not such a great idea.
I'm just sayin'....

5 m/s?
that sounds far from pleasant. surely not fun.

Tree's idea of rolling over your pg sounds far more desirable.

Finding a rig to jump the potato bridge at 220 lbs should not be that difficult. It is a forgiving lz (if you stay away from the rocks).

Have you ever done a rollover? they are super fun and WAY safer than jumper your rescue parachute.

counts as a BASE jump AND a paraglider flight

they are fairly dangerous if you have never done one before, I use 'tailgates' on the glider to stage the inflation and avoid cravats but I think I am the only one doing these regularly.

That is awesome. I'm up for for one of those. I'd definitely want someone with experience to help me pack the wing though.

What if it doesn't work? Seriously.

Oh yeah, I'd be happy to pack you a rollover mr. troll. I guarantee success.

That is indeed true. You'd have loved the riff the paraglider pilots had with the ground launchers at an unregulated site near here. We'd walk in and be chewed out repeatedly for anything possible.

I think the last time I was being chastised, I introduced myself, showed him all my protective gear and talked to him for a while until his bark subsided.

It took a while but everyone there gets along now.

Have you got your numbers right here? If you waited until you reached 30 m/s (a little over 3 seconds), then deployed, you'd be 6.5 seconds deep before your reserve was deployed. The object in question is 6 seconds to impact.

Even assuming that you could get the same deployment speed from a standing start (and you really, really won't), you'd be coming up on sporty-low by the time your canopy was out. The good news is, that puts you in a position where you're more likely to hit the river. The bad news is, you're then more-or-less counting on everything going right (or on your ninja skills) on your very first jump, using nonstandard gear that a lot of folks here have advised you against.

I have been running into the same thing since I got my Gin Nano!

My bad... I knew canisters sounded a bit weird...

I understand that paraglider pilots and especially hang glider pilots can have an elitist attitude, especially regarding launch sites, and I try my best to avoid such a mindset. I prefer to launch in un-designated spots, and generally avoid air parks. I don't intend to burn any sites. As I understand it, there have been fatalities off Perrine before, so even if I was completely stupid about it and messed up royally, no one would rush to close it down.

Also, the reserves are made to handle deployment from terminal velocity. I would be surprised if the riser failed.

I assure you that I am not trolling, and that there is merit to your second assertion.
5m/s isn't slow, I agree, but I would basically be counting on a water landing, and a ground landing would be more of a contingency.
Also, reserves appear to deploy at almost the same speed from very low velocities, based on my experience watching deployments. In fact, my impression is that the 3.5 second quote is given as a very conservative quote, since most reserve deployments I've seen are very rapid. I would of course do more research to determine the deployment time from a standstill, but I am fairly certain 150 meters is enough.

If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, I guess... As long as I don't get stuck in a wheelchair, w/e....

The reserve deployments I've seen on video are fairly rapid even from near standstills. I actually don't think I've ever seen a reserve take 3.5 seconds to open.

hey, it's your life and all, but I would try to use something other than youtube for learning to get crippled.

I'm completely serious. This is not a troll. If someone would be kind enough to help me pack my wing properly at Perrine, I will jump. The reserve jump was probably not the best idea, nor one that I was sure about going through with (hence the question), but I would definitely do a rollover.

In the unlikely event you are not trolling you have already proven yourself unworthy of any mentoring. First off you continue to argue your idea against very experienced jumpers who are telling you what a bad idea it is. Second you aren't capable of grasping the obvious; a rollover is an unpacked jump. Third item; you show little or no regard for your own life beyond wishing for death instead of being crippled. I hope that you find no help here. Go away.

That is not true. I have conceded that the reserve jump probably isn't the best idea, after the advice I got from people I consider more knowledgeable than I am. In fact, after what I was told on here, I basically dropped it from consideration. The only point I was arguing about is the deployment distance of a reserve.


I never claimed to know what a rollover is. I was merely taking suggestions from people more experienced than I am. I have seen "static line" type jumps done with paragliding wings, in which the wing is in a container tied to the bridge. The canopy deploys when the pilot jumps. I made the assumption that that is what a rollover is.


Many would prefer being a fatality to being spoon fed for the last 60 years of their life.
I believe that I'm more careful than almost anyone I know. I take every precaution available to me when I participate in a high risk activity, to the point of being told that I take safety too far.
I asked about double canopy containers with cutaway, and keeping a backup reserve. Those are not things someone with a death wish would be concerned about. Even if I did a bridge jump with a reserve, I would keep a backup. In addition, I was never planning on jumping unsupervised.
If all of my precautions fail, then what? What happens, happens. I merely implied that I accept that some activities are inherently risky, and by participating, I am accepting that there is a possibility that I will become a statistic. What is important to me is that I evaluate the risk, minimize it, and determine if it is worth the reward. I was merely being realistic.

*Edit: formatting.

Dude, your first post was asking whether or not it was a good idea. Several people said no. You then proceed to tell everyone how smart you are and how you want to do it anyway. Get a clue! Boob.

p.s. seriously considering going to webMD, asking a stupid question, and then telling them all about medicine; after going to sportsillustrated.com and dazzling everyone with my non-existant knowledge of coaching techniques required to win the superbowl.

I've already decided not to do a jump with a reserve, based entirely on what I was told here.
I made no comments to show how smart I am. I tried to say that PG reserves deploy in reasonable altitude, and now I'm getting flamed.

wear nomex. and a kotex.

Nomex is a really good material for cases in which there is a fire hazard. I've never heard about Kotex.

nomex is great for when you're getting "flamed".

so is kotex:
http://www.kotex.com/...adsRegularWings.aspx

Haha. At first I thought the link was for a paraglider model.

One last note about reserves. I was talking out of my ass. I guess I quoted a different type of canopy. I looked up the data sheet for a pull-down apex PG reserve similar to mine, and here is what I found:
"It is generally considered that emergency parachutes should be carried whenever
you intend to fly higher than 50m above ground. There are recorded cases of saves occuring at even lower altitudes."
http://www.apcoaviation.com/support/manuals/manual_mayday.pdf

It looks like PG reserves deploy in about 50 meters from a relative standstill (paraglider flight speed).

I think that calvin19 is right about drift though, so I won't be jumping with a PG reserve as my main. I will definitely carry one as a backup if I (hopefully) do a paraglider BASE jump though.

My question is if anyone thinks it is worth carrying with a BASE specific rig during a jump, in case the BASE canopy never leaves the container, or whatnot?

This is somewhat true, you were planning on being safe.

The problem is, you formulated the plan of what you thought was safe based on a very, very small amount of knowledge. Then, when much more knowledgeable people started pointing out the flaws in your plan you showed, and continue to show, considerable resistance to changing your plan, despite it being explained to you in detail that what you think is safe, isn't.

And now, despite still only knowing a very, very small amount about BASE, to the extent of wanting to rely on someone else setting your gear up for you, you are set on jumping the Perrine without specific BASE gear as soon as possible. Is this the behaviour of a safety conscious person?



To compare, ideally most people getting into BASE will have made several hundred skydives and have lots of experience with freefall parachute deployments. They will have spent at least a year learning as much as possible about all the technical differences between BASE and skydiving and learning about the new techniques they will have to use. They will have their BASE specific gear and will have practiced packing it and inspecting it until they know it inside out and are confident of being able to pack it, correctly set it up themselves for each jump and spot any problems with it, all before they step on top of an object for the first time.

You, on the other hand, don't even know what you don't know.

Still feeling safe?

small rounds with the apex pulled down tend to have oscillate severely. if you hit anything other than the water, be assured you will be hurt.

Hm... I actually didn't know that. Thanks.

If you follow our advice you will live!

In fact the jump you want to do is so
easy a bag of dog food can do it.

However, trying to re-invent shit is
dangerous and a big waste of time.

true, but I believe this is very dampened by long-bridgal (on the riser side, not a deployment bridal).

also, nearly all hang glider/paraglider reserves are various sized apex pull down small rounds. several are rogallo style steerable paracutes. there is one manufactures that uses a specialized harness that cuts the glider away and direct bags a small lightweight BASE canopy.

have you evver rolled over with paaraglider? also known as a McConkey?

I have never, ever been used a paraglider wing.

I have done many unpacked jumps from several
different objects, all I need to do is a rollover
from an E and I will 'Unpacked BASE'.

I am taking the advice I'm getting. I was just asking about ways I could get in to BASE jumping. I figured the Perrine bridge would be the safest/best way to learn.
Do I really need 100 skydives for a bridge jump though? I think I should be able to handle what happens after deployment, since paragliders are remotely related to BASE canopies.

if you pull down on the riser(s) on one side, it will spill air and start oscillating madly. Rick Harrison experienced this using the same type canopy on a train jump. it was the riser pull that caused the canopy to go squirrely.

you do know the dogfood in question had a 90off the first jump and landed in the boulders right?

Bad body position ?

As a guy who does both activities I can add: I've seen PG reserves open in 50 meters but I've also seen them 'snivel' for 200 meters depending on a lot of different factors. Wind, bad throw, descent rate and packing method can have an influence. But they are not made for freefall either. I've seen several friends survive certain death with their reserve, including one girl (Jackie ?) that threw her reserve when a newby collided with her. She saved both of their lives. But I have a friend (Herardo B.) who is dead with a 5-6 second delay on a hang glider failure. The forces broke the bridle at the line attachment point.

What you want to do could be done if all the factors and luck come together but I vote BAD idea.

Repeat here: there would be no time to send a reserve on this base jump, plus without freefall experience you would probably not have the situational awareness to be able to throw it at the point when you need it anyway.

I am certainty no paragliding expert, but in moments of extreme boredom have stumbled upon several paragliding reserve deployment videos on youtube. I think the "low velocity deployments" that you are referring to are simply low velocity only on the vertical axis. Correct me if I'm wrong but it appears most paragliding malfunctions contain a significant amount of spinning. Taking into account this rotational velocity I can guarantee you that the relative wind to which the reserve is introduced is much more significant than it appears.

Damn. I'm sorry for your loss. Could you please describe exactly what happened structurally? Did the bridle itself snap, or was it a harness attachment point that the bridle attached to that failed? Some nylon PG reserve bridles I found online are rated for 6000 lbs, although my bridle looks like it wouldn't handle anything close to that. I would seriously double think carrying a PG reserve if the bridle couldn't handle the shock from a terminal fall. My harness came with 325kg limit carabiners (they look barely stronger than safety pins), and instructions recommended using reserve attachment points that can withstand 6.5Gs deceleration, which I thought was insanely low for an emergency parachute (I think I remember a paragliding manual stating that skydiving canopies) are tested to 5000 lbs shock). I bought 30KN carabiners for it, but my worry is that it won't be the carabiners that will fail from a strong shock. Do you know the rough G load from a pull down apex deployment at near terminal speed? If it was the parachute bridle itself that failed, would you call it a freak accident, or something that will tend to happen if you get too close to terminal?

I've never been in a dangerous spin before, so I can't say with any certainty what the total velocity of the pilot is during a bad spin. However, I would be surprised if it was higher than 20-25 meters/second.

Ive been paragliding for 6 years (base jumping for 6mos.) and ill tell you right now paraglider reserves are something you dont count on!! ive personally used them and have seen others use them and they take some time to open, there not consistent some times they open fast sometimes they snivel to the ground..... Since no one will say it I will:
Quit being a dumb ass.... go get yourself a mentor a base rig with a base canopy pack it slider down and make your jump from the perrine, your odds of walking away are pretty good and you'll prob. live to do it again.....
making a jump from the perrine with a pg reserve?, well make sure you get video cause were all gonna say told you so when you go in....

that wasent a personall attack either.... just trying to talk some sense into somebody who wont listen.... we dont need this at the perrine or on the bfl...

You may survive a jump at taking short delays at the perrine. but when you get bored of that, where do you go. you start taking delays there. then you go home and want to jump, there is a xxxx tall object, to tall for go and throw, what do you do.

LEARN TO SKYDIVE. You should be an advanced student under the canopy due to your experience. But being an macho arrogant paraglider pilot inst going to keep you alive in BASE. Time to turn on the humble. Plus, in all seriousness skydiving is fun. So many ways to jump, so many dropzones, boogies and generally cool people. Take your time, the bridge and base will be here when your ready.

BTW- I BASE, skydive, paraglide, ground launch, and am a commercially rated fixed wing pilot, and a CFII. Is there crossover, yes, from everything there. But a PG pilot (only) just cant understand the first portion of a BASE jump (Falling and initial parachute inflation). Go learn to skydive, take this summer and bust out 50 jumps (not very much but at least some) and reevaluate what your goals are then after personal experience of your own may help in keeping me from seeing your name on the BFL and then using it to argue this same argument with another just like you. I know a few PG pilots (highly experienced ones) that are now BASE jumpers. THEY ALL LEARNED TO SKYDIVE FIRST. And don't tell us how you are safer than most of your friends, wtf does that have to do with anything. I am way less of a meth addict than my friends. means nothing, means I'm a fiend, i dunno. we dont know your friends. If you really want to prove you are safety conscious then learn to fucking skydive. then base jump, and try not to die in the process please. because as much as I am annoyed by this thread, you, and the idea you can short cut to base, DYING SUCKS. rant over, out.

Damn. I'm sorry for your loss. Could you please describe exactly what happened structurally? Did the bridle itself snap, or was it a harness attachment point that the bridle attached to that failed? Some nylon PG reserve bridles I found online are rated for 6000 lbs, although my bridle looks like it wouldn't handle anything close to that. I would seriously double think carrying a PG reserve if the bridle couldn't handle the shock from a terminal fall. My harness came with 325kg limit carabiners (they look barely stronger than safety pins), and instructions recommended using reserve attachment points that can withstand 6.5Gs deceleration, which I thought was insanely low for an emergency parachute (I think I remember a paragliding manual stating that skydiving canopies) are tested to 5000 lbs shock). I bought 30KN carabiners for it, but my worry is that it won't be the carabiners that will fail from a strong shock. Do you know the rough G load from a pull down apex deployment at near terminal speed? If it was the parachute bridle itself that failed, would you call it a freak accident, or something that will tend to happen if you get too close to terminal?
Hey,
I can't quote you numbers or statistics but to answer one question: The bridle broke where the reserve lines were attached to it. So at the upper end.

My guess is the Kilo Newtons will vary with many factors: canopy size, freefall time, the weight of the person and gear to name a few.

You have mentioned many different numbers for rating equipment. Pounds and G's don't tell the whole story, but Kilo Newtons do. I'm sure that 736 could quote you a mindnumbing formula on that.

I weigh 220 pounds and BASE jump. I'm usually at the Perrine a couple of times a year. I'm not the biggest guy out there and companies make large parachutes that work for us heavy guys.

nicrussel. dead on bro! nice work.

(no pun intended)

+1