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nice vid !!!
if you get yourself in the same situation (180) like slim (RIP) did,what are you gonna pull,toggle or riser?
i m just curious, what is better to do!

Short answer: it depends.

Long answer: please do a search on this topic
because there have been numerous threads on
this with lots of good answers from people who
have actually been there and done that.

FYI - I haven't.

ok!
for example,you have hand held jump from a cliff and you have 180 opening,what will you do,toggles or risers?

either one will work.

like so much in this sport, "better" depends on individual preferences.

it's like having a total in skydiving... should you cut away first, or go straight for your reserve? there is NOT a single "right" answer.

the best thing is to do a bunch of drill jumps from a friendly object and sort out what works for you.

if you put in the effort and read old threads, you'll find a lot of solid thinking supporting both methods.

I can only offer conjecture and theory since I have never
ever had to deal with a 180 degree off heading on any
of my building or cliff jumps.

In my very limited experience, 151 jumps, I have only
had one 180 and it was off of a very forgiving bridge.

FYI - the position of one's pilot chute prior to deployment
is not a variable that really plays into the decision whether
the jumper goes to toggles or risers.

Based solely on reading and listening to others with actual
experience with this unfortunate situation, there are two
schools of thought regarding this much discussed concept:

1) if object strike is so eminent that you brace for impact
then use your risers to either A) turn the wing away from
the object or B) pull both risers to stop forward movement
then let one up to turn away from the object.

Warning - using risers causes the jumper to lose altitude
quickly and perhaps cause you to hit the ground hard in
a turn. Also if too much force is used on both risers you
can stall causing you to fall backwards hitting the ground
very hard with your tailbone and/or head, which of course
is really bad and limits one's ability to PLF.

2) the other school of thought is to practice being on
your toggles quickly, cleanly, and surely every time
so that in the event of an off heading you can turn
the canopy immediately, perhaps before it can even
develop much forward speed.

Warning - popping toggles too soon and asymmetrically
can cause an off heading.


Again, I am simply typing information that I learned
from reading on this forum and listening to experienced
jumpers who have lived through this problem.


Since you are too lazy or computer challenged to do so
here is a link with 36 search results on this topic:

Hmm, Search Function Is Good

I received a PM requesting I split this question off from the original thread. I agreed that it would be better to have 2 threads.

personally, I can't imagine that every parachute will respond the same. there are too many variations in wing loading, design, trim, vents, valves, brake settings, etc. to expect all will behave the same.

I expect the most important criteria will be the skill of the jumper.

for example...
off headings mean imparting rotational energy to the system. thus, the jumper typically rotates more than the parachute. it is very feasible for the parachute to open less than 180 out, but the jumper initially face more than 180 out. so, should the jumper turn right or left? should they wait to settle under the canopy? some might freeze briefly and thus will lack the choice!

sitting at a keyboard is a bad way to decide.

need to consider altitude, winds, landing area, etc. each situation will be different. i would not unstow toggles if i was facing object, as it may cause a surge towards the object.

i believe marta from apex openend facing cliff, realized she was too low to turn away, so she used rears to back canopy away from cliff, then landed forward, facing cliff.

"i would not unstow toggles if i was facing object"..............

You speaking from personal experience in the field or theory? It's VERY different when it actually happens.

"it may cause a surge towards the object."............

It shouldn't if you do it correctly.

http://www.blincmagazine.com/...-vers.html#post47912

Nice post from Dwain Weston on the subject....

I could be wrong but I remember Slims video looking like he unstowed the toggles and surged into the cliff. If one of the most experienced jumpers in the world did it what makes you think you'll do it correctly?

I think your brakes need to be set very deep to consider it. There are, however, lots of variables to consider. I don't jump low E or B until my brakes are set right, otherwise you are rolling the dice...

I used toggles when I 180'd off *some girl's wall* in Moab. I've used risers at a different cliff, not so overhung. Both resulted in the desired outcome.

FWIW, I fly a VTEC FOX at a bit less than the stock factory wing loading (0.66). I did not customize my break settings.

Whatever you do, do SOMETHING and do it QUICKLY.

I have had 180's, never at a cliff, opened facing guy wires, opened paralell to building, etc

i have used both toggles and risers to correct off headings, both methods successful.

clarification to original statement should be, don't unstow and allow canopy to return to full glide when facing an object, without acting to avoid.

every situation will be different. act fuckin fast.

http://johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html

nice article on the subject but Im not sure when it was written so it could be a little dated

I had thought that I was in the 'toggle' camp, but I'm not. I am not in the riser group either. I am in the "save my ass doing anything it takes to survive" church. I have had a few 180's some required I was on risers before I thought "grab riser avoid object", but I have also at other times, a majority actually, I am have cleared the brakes and on the toggles before I think about that too. I react, and when shit hits the fan thinking may take you out.

but
-a 180 facing an object will probably get a riser first reaction to miss the object then transfer of control to toggles once I KNOW I WILL clear object to get a slower sink rate giving me more to work with. but that's me.

-Slims video, he missed his toggles, dont do that. Its good that his video pops into conversation every couple years, knowing that he was current, ultra experienced (even now) and a popular jumper and he messed up. Everyone can, and if you do, hope you're lucky.

I was having this same conversation with a well known, experienced jumper the summer before last. Their canopy is either a Troll or a BlackJack. When on the BlackJack, they pulled a rear riser. On the Troll, it was always straight to toggles...

Richard

I have limited experience, only 102 jumps, but I find that I always go for toggles out of instinct regardless of what happens, bc thats what I've always done. There was one jump where I had a near 180, bc of a bad exit. I panicked and fumbled for toggles for about two seconds. It was an A and I had a descent tail wind so their was no real danger of a strike, but I realized after that I had my hand on one toggle right away but didnt do anything till I got a grip on the other. I learned from this that I only really need to get a grip on the toggle that I want to turn with, and I have found it to be really quick and easy to grab that one, bury it, and then let the other one up as I am turning. This creates a fast braked turn without a lot of altitude loss or motion towards the object. I read the article that Johnny Utah wrote, and he talked about bringing both toggles down to the deep brakes setting then digging with one and then letting the other up to full flight to minimize the altitude loss and forward motion. It seems to me that by leaving one stowed till after I've started the turn, I am doing the same thing with a slightly easier method.

From watching the video it seemed to me that Slim only missed one toggle and had he immediatly dug with the one he grabbed first, he may have avoided the strike. However, as I said earlier I am not that experienced and Slim was a better and more experienced BASE jumper than I will likely ever be.