BJ or MDV Troll?
none of my friends have jumped a troll and i was wondering if anyone has experience on both a troll and a BJ? i am looking to compare a 245 troll and a 260 BJ for an all around canopy in colorado. we have quite a few low and dirty but i want one thats good for everything. i hear nothing but good things about the BJ but i also hear it has a bit larger pack volume. wingloading at .7 mainly high altitude what is going to be the better of the two? i only want advice from people who have jumped both. Basejumper.com - archive
BASE Technical
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
i jump both. pack volume? negligible. they're both great canopies. depends on your experience and flying style. demo them both and you'll find out for yourself. otherwise, someone else's preference will mean nothing to you.
Re: [blitzkrieg] BJ or MDV Troll?
blitzkrieg wrote:
i jump both. pack volume? negligible.
they're both great canopies. depends on your experience and flying style. demo them both and you'll find out for yourself. otherwise, someone else's preference will mean nothing to you.
what are the flight characteristics? i know the BJ has a great flare even from half break and great sink, what about the troll?
and i buy my cars from out of the country, our cars suck.
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
My opinion given those 2 choices. Black Jack.
I highly prefer the available performance. It has a wider control range and is quicker to respond to immediate toggle control. It works fine with risers too however I simply don't use them unless it's really necessary.
It's hard to describe the rest of my opinion being my experience is primarily with the BlackJack however I've Definately jumped the troll enough to still prefer the BlackJack.
When I say available performance, I mean if you let it fly, it will go pretty quick and fly far. If you want it to go slow, it does. I can sink it in 3/4 brakes the entire approach, then finish flaring to a stand up on a hard surface. I've also kept it at a near stall the entire way and have stood up or PLFed depending on how it was flying at that moment.
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There is another option you may want to try. Asylum now makes the Seven (and also the Feather.)
The Seven is not vented and you would never know it. It opens and pressurizes so quick you'd swear it was vented. Get the ZP option and it's even more impressive. The range is even greater than the BlackJack. The slow flight characteristics are fantastic. Also, when you stall it, it basically just flies backwards. If you need or want speed, let it fly. The pack volume is also quite low.
I do not know what is available for demo purposes but I would highly suggest trying one.
I am satisfied with the BlackJack and have a lot of jumps on them. Given the opportunity though, I'd move over to the Seven. They really are that good.
BTW, i have no vested interest in any brand of canopy or container so my opinion is based on my experience alone.
Re: [hookitt] BJ or MDV Troll?
hookitt wrote:
My opinion given those 2 choices.
Black Jack.
I highly prefer the available performance. It has a wider control range and is quicker to respond to immediate toggle control. It works fine with risers too however I simply don't use them unless it's really necessary.
It's hard to describe the rest of my opinion being my experience is primarily with the BlackJack however I've Definately jumped the troll enough to still prefer the BlackJack.
When I say available performance, I mean if you let it fly, it will go pretty quick and fly far. If you want it to go slow, it does. I can sink it in 3/4 brakes the entire approach, then finish flaring to a stand up on a hard surface. I've also kept it at a near stall the entire way and have stood up or PLFed depending on how it was flying at that moment.
------------
There is another option you may want to try. Asylum now makes the Seven (and also the Feather.)
The Seven is not vented and you would never know it. It opens and pressurizes so quick you'd swear it was vented. Get the ZP option and it's even more impressive. The range is even greater than the BlackJack. The slow flight characteristics are fantastic. Also, when you stall it, it basically just flies backwards. If you need or want speed, let it fly. The pack volume is also quite low.
I do not know what is available for demo purposes but I would highly suggest trying one.
I am satisfied with the BlackJack and have a lot of jumps on them. Given the opportunity though, I'd move over to the Seven. They really are that good.
BTW, i have no vested interest in any brand of canopy or container so my opinion is based on my experience alone.
kick ass, thanks again for your impute hookitt!
Re: [hookitt] BJ or MDV Troll?
Funny. Majority of my jumps are on the Troll, but I have flown many other canopies, including about a dozen jumps on the BJ. I like the Troll, and like people above me said, it's a matter of what you are current on.
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
Yo dude, I've own both canopies, so I'll try and give a brief comparison. opening-The troll MDV 245 pressurizes just a hair quicker with a slightly lower incidence of end cell closure than the bj 260 zp. The bj's pressurization is still faster than I can usually react to though. The factory dbs is also very deep on the bj, giving the opening a very different feel. I've jumped the troll at terminal ~100 times and it gives quick, reliable openings if configured properly. I have 0 SU jumps on a bj.
flight-I think that the troll has slightly quicker response and turn rate than the bj, but this is pretty negligible. I attribute this to the troll having shorter lines. The bj flies noticeably faster and glides a bit farther. I prefer to sink my troll in on toggles, my bj on risers. they both have excellent sinking characteristics. the flair is a little more powerful on the bj (remember that my bj has zp and my troll does not). This could make doing landings at high altitude a little easier imo. I do prefer the troll for dirty low stuff though, because it is a little less agressive in flight after you pop the toggles, resulting in a slightly slower aproach.
packing-The troll packs easier, period. It's kind of hard to describe why, but I think it is mostly to do with the line attachments being less bulky. Packing a bj should not be out of the ability of any base jumper though. In a real world situation, it probably takes me an extra 2 minutes to pack the bj.
If you choose to purchase either of these canopies, you will be happy with either one so long as you take the time to fly it well. Hope this all helps.
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
choosing gear is really like dating. it's personal and no one can tell you what you will like. your first will be a favorite, even if it makes no sense. that said...
1) build enough experience to make an intelligent choice based on YOUR preferences,
2) throw a dart and pick any modern canopy, or
3) go with the flow and get what everyone around you jumps.
the skill of most novices limits their abilities, not the gear.
Re: [tommyh] BJ or MDV Troll?
tommyh wrote:
The bj flies noticeably faster and glides a bit farther.
don't you think that this is affected in most part by the ZP on the BJ ?
I have done a back to back load from the same 190SL where you open and just fly forward. I just flew the 265DW MDV Troll and flared, whereas the 280CUS BJ I sat in brakes for awhile, and flared, and still went further on the BJ. I felt it was most def the function of CUS rather than airfoil.
Re: [vid666] BJ or MDV Troll?
I can't say for sure because I've never jumped a non zp black jack. Remember that they are different airfoils though. I don't know enough about airfoil design to say why one wing will fly "better" than another. One easily measurable difference between a bj and a troll is the "height" of the wing. A rib on a bj is about 1 1/2" to 2" shorter (from top skin to bottom skin) than on a troll. Logically, the thinner airfoil would fly faster/farther, but like I said, I can't say for sure what effect this would have on flight characteristics. Through my experienc though, a bj zp260 flies a little farther and faster than a troll 245 mdv. keep in mind that a troll 245 and a bj 260 are almost exactly the same size, despite the difference in the stated square footage.
Re: [tommyh] BJ or MDV Troll?
I have flown both CUS and non-CUS BJ280s, as well as Flik 242 HTS. I felt a big difference in glide with the ZP foreskin. I think just like I said above, it takes getting used to, and you'll be loving whichever (modern) canopy you choose.
Re: [tommyh] BJ or MDV Troll?
I have about 130 jumps on Trolls but only about a dozen on Black Jacks...
Like others have said, both are good
canopies, hell probably the best two
as of last year... will take some time
to see how the OSP & Feather perform
in the field.
In reply to:
packing-The troll packs easier, period. It's kind of hard to describe why, but I think it is mostly to do with the line attachments being less bulky. Packing a bj should not be out of the ability of any base jumper though. In a real world situation, it probably takes me an extra 2 minutes to pack the bj.
If I remember correctly, the BJ has 5
lines on the front risers and 5 lines on
the brakes where the Troll has only 4
at those spots, of course not a big deal
but definitely noticed it when packing.
Re: [vid666] BJ or MDV Troll?
tommyh wrote:
packing-The troll packs easier, period.
see, i don't get that. they're both shitty 7cell canopies that take 20mins to pack if i'm being careful and taking my time? but now, that brings in "packing style" to the debate as well.
vid666 wrote:
tommyh wrote:
The bj flies noticeably faster and glides a bit farther.
don't you think that this is affected in most part by the ZP on the BJ ?
i agree with the better glide, but don't think it's related to only ZP. I have both, and while the ZP does perform slightly better (mainly in the flare) they both out glide my Troll.
again, all this means crap if you can't fly a canopy in the first place!
Re: [blitzkrieg] BJ or MDV Troll?
Heard lots of REALLY good things about the OSP for dirty low stuff. Have not had a chance to jump on yet but thinking for us here in the USA it might be a good canopy of choice being most of what we are all doing is sub 400.
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
You should go for the troll, Really! And it just so happens I have one for sale! Serioulsly, ready to go!!
Re: [Naptown] BJ or MDV Troll?
Naptown wrote:
You should go for the troll, Really! And it just so happens I have one for sale!
Serioulsly, ready to go!!
don't sell mine by mistake
... how's the OSP working out?
Re: [gixxer1k] BJ or MDV Troll?
i can tell ya for sure that the troll is heaps better in deep brakes and for sure THE perfect all round canopy! it has awesome openings, a real good glide angle and even if you are flying in deep breaks it still gives you tons of flare power! the troll is definitely the canopy that you want!
btw... the osp is also really good! it's designed for slider down stuff!!! but i also jumped mine subterminal and it was good!
if you're looking for an all round and 'jump off everything' canopy go for the troll. if you're gonna jump slider down most of the time go for the osp!
BJ or MDV Troll?
no no no I can tell you, FOR SURE, that the BJ is heaps better in deep and shallow brakes and is THE PERFECT all around canopy. It has AMAZING openings, a better glide angle, and you should buy one for sure.
Christ, this thread is 90% retarded. I mean, really?
More relevant to this discussion is this link: http://www.dorkzonehero.net/
Anyway, I'm just kidding. What you really want is a Seven or a Feather, everyone knows that the BJ and Troll are both way out of style... but BASE jumpers are slow learners, so in general, Euros shag Trolls and Americans love BJ's.
Re: [pgpilot] BJ or MDV Troll?
then again theres the haters...i don't even like BJ's. for real.
shagging sucks too.
Re: [pgpilot] BJ or MDV Troll?
pgpilot wrote:
no no no
I can tell you, FOR SURE, that the BJ is heaps better in deep and shallow brakes and is THE PERFECT all around canopy. It has AMAZING openings, a better glide angle, and you should buy one for sure.
Christ, this thread is 90% retarded. I mean, really?
More relevant to this discussion is this link: http://www.dorkzonehero.net/
Anyway, I'm just kidding. What you really want is a Seven or a Feather, everyone knows that the BJ and Troll are both way out of style... but BASE jumpers are slow learners, so in general, Euros shag Trolls and Americans love BJ's.
hahaha i cant argue with that. but it sounds like the seven is gettin a lota love, maybe ill start lookin into that.