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Getting back into BASE jumping, but only have 3 jumps from 2004. Before purchasing a rig. I am trying to find out the diff. bettween Dual Pin and Velcro?[

http://www.basejumper.com/Articles/Gear/My_First_BASE_Rig_9.html

Pins. You want pins. Seriously.

At least make it a clicky... YA MAD BASTARD!

Dont forget 1 pins, i love my 1 pins.

Couldn't tell if you were joking, but there is the Prism, a one pin BASE rig.

Not joking, i love my prism. Infact just bought a second one.

Calvin will help me on this one. There's nothing like the sound of velcro ripping right after you pitch.

Explain

Well, what can't you use pins for? Personally, I would never buy velcro. Not that I think there is anything wrong with it (when applied in the correct environment), I just think pins are a better alternative. I have seen video of a fatality that was caused directly by a velcro rig being used at terminal speeds. Also seen, while people were doing aerials (piked), the pressure created from tucking separated the velcro and popped the shrivel flap off prematurely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really can't think of a place where velcro would be better than pins.

 
On the contrary there are some real advantages to velcro.

I remember the development of pin rigs and the learning curve we went through. All the wild off heading problems and hesitations. A lot of it comes down to packing. The bottom line is that unless you run the loops from the bottom your depending on the tention of the flaps to make the pins secure. This means a tighter rig. The natural tendency is for the thing to want to turn into a cilender. You tend to wind up with a narrower rig. This can make packing more diffacult. Canopies depending on their dementions tend to want to pack up to a certin width. There is a natural width to a packjob. A velcro container does not depend on tension to keep it secure. It can be built wider and flatter with a more open tray. If they haven't tryed to build it too small, that sickness hit base the same way it hit skydiving, packing can be easier. In some ways the container can be more secure. It's easy to pop one of those pins. The only thing I really wouldn't do with a good well designed velcro rig, let's not drag up some of the early ones, is fly a wing suit.

In terms of flexability in canopy size, security, concistancy, and comfert it can be one of the best investments you can make. Every one should have at least one.

lee

velcro rigs provide certain advantages in difficult climbing environments, like on tight towers. failures are not catastrophic like on a pin rig. any slight failure of the velcro rig results in an obvious peeling-rip sound. good velcro rigs were used for years on aerials before pins. however, this era preceded the proliferation of wingsuit base. i have used velcro on a majority of my 600 base jumps, most of them 4 seconds to terminal, with no problems. pin rigs have their advantage too. but for a novice, velcro is just simpler to pack and more consistent than a pin rig. velcro is just easier when going handheld too, which is most novices should do.

''velcro is just easier when going handheld too, which is most novices should do.''
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Easier? Were is the difference?
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'' ....and more consistent than a pin rig.''
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More consistent?! The main disadvantage of the velcro rig is consistency of the ''grip''..

better is to say following..
Velcro rig opening force is actually higher than pin.
If the rig size properly fit the canopy size the pin rig container is easier to pack.
Pin rig is way more safer during climbing than any velcro. Safer in WS safer in areal. safer in general.
Velcro rig has sentimental value for the ''old bone'' base jumpers. Now days, I can see velcro rig on the old photos. Better prove that pin rig are far superior you can't find.

One advantage of a velcro container is you can get it converted to a pin rig for cheap.

Given an option. Pins.

Velcro is not easier to pack unless it's big enough to close easy. Rigging and closing a pin rig is simple and pins don't wear out. Be mindful how equipment works and close it properly.

I have both pin and velcro and hands down prefer pins. My rig is very secure even in the tightest of places.

Novices nowadays, go hand held for a jump or 2 then go stowed. There's no need to push velcro onto a new jumper.

Jump it if you got it but certainly don't go out of your way to get a velcro rig.

You win. Best answer yet.

So it seems to be as a novice jumper, pin is what i should stick with. i heard once before that it takes velcro longer to open.

As one of the most experienced and skilled BASE jumpers in the world once told me,

"Velcro rigs belong hanging dusty and alone on the wall of the restaurant next to the wooden skis with leather bindings"




seriously, it's all personal choice. But velcro, IMO, has considerably more downfalls than pins.

There obviously is a difference of opinion between jumpers on this subject, still.

Welcome to BASE where you must sift through a variety of opinions and decide what makes YOU comfortable.

Two points to keep in mind...
- The velcro wears and should be watched and periodically replaced. That means access to a sewing machine or a FedEx/UPS/USPS collection point.
- What are the jumpers in your area jumping? You'll get the best advice, customized to you, from people who know your face. They generally prefer one rig over another. Modern rigs are sweet, so why not choose the one which other locals know well? It will help them help you.

Don't have time to reply fully on this at the moment. Will respond soon... A lot of my opinions are from being around the "sport" so long. Will put the ideas out there and hopefully a bunch of us will provoke some thought.

well ya could of helped me out and made it a clicky,you know what i would say if we were standing at the exit point mate...

YOUR ALL MAD

Started with a velcro.

Bought another velcro.

Bought a pin.

Sold a velcro.

Bought another pin.

Final Score: Velcro 1, Pin 2... That is all

I think I am getting the hint that pins are better, I dont know why.. I use to have a perigee pro w/ace 245. Thinkin of getting an ApexDP w/Fox 220-260... Any ideas on this??? Currently in Iraq, gettin ready to come home (Finally). All help and knowledge is appreciated, thanks for all the help so far.

As one said welcome to BASE. I have both, but the old vision is still the most comfortable rig i have ever owned! The gear is so good these days, but if you want my .2c i would get pins and learn it in and out.
Be safe

I have jumped velcro, 1 pin, 2 pin, and I'm still here.

As others said: each tool works well IF used properly.

I do plan to build myself a velcro rig soon because:
a) already own a pair of pin rigs
b) think it will be easier to make
c) for the variety and fun of it

When I posted originally in my thread, there was a historical context to it. Many of the problems with pin rigs can be remedied with some basic rigging education. I've seen experienced jumpers make mistakes on pin rigs to this day. It primarily has to do with pin pull force. In the far past, often jumpers encountered what appeared to be a pilot chute delay when in fact the pin pull force was far higher than it should have been. Now I'm seeing the opposite, with jumpers who have only 3 to 5 pounds of tension for pin extraction. That obviously is far too low and is asking for trouble if one goes handheld, as the bridle will flap in the wind in freefall and potentially extract a pin prematurely. Of course this can be remedied by securing the bridle somehow to another part of the rig, similar to a tuck tab or a velcro strip. I've had a delayed opening one time because I didn't pull test one my pins on a dual pin rig that packed poorly - the bulk wasn't distributed well enough and one pin was loose and one was tight. I thought it would be fine but it was noticable in freefall. The velcro for me is just easier to pack and it's obvious when the velcro starts weakening. It will extract slower than a pin rig with pins that are loose, but for a novice, they most likely won't be jumping an object where extraction time is extremely critical, like a freefall from less than 250 feet. The easy ability of velcro flap to stay put when going handheld, the easier packing IMHO, and the less required rigging knowledge is why I vote for a good solid velcro rig for beginners. Beginners will not be doing aerials most likely and if they do them, they are most likely not doing advanced aerials for long durations that stress the closing point on a rig. Beginners are also likely not do max tracks or use tracking apparel or wingsuits. In addition, partial failure of a velcro rig is easy to fix in the field too with no pull-up cord. On certain towers I've been on, it's hard to fix a rig in >20 mph wind, much less using a pull up cord. If you're on an easy ledge with light wind, there should be no problem with a pin rig.

So, over the summer I was flying a tandem paraglider, my passenger was going to jump with two pin BASE rig (mine).

We launched, and immediately upon passenger/jumper sitting back I noticed that his top pin was loose/popped.
upon dropping brakes and investigating while cruising out over the valley to the LZ, (3000' above landing) I realized the closing loop had broken. I use Asylums double-ended loops, and while in flight, I flipped the loop over/knotted it, and re-seated the pin for my passenger/jumper, gave him a gear check, and he was gone. fun times.

 i was on a jump a week ago...and i was wearing velcro..I leaned forward to remove an old static line...and i heard the lovely tear of velcro as I then reached my hand back to prevent my canopy from falling out. Luckily I had velcro on..cause I was on a sketchy area..and couldnt take off my rig...so I just managed to turn the flap at some weird angle to get some velcro from each side just so it could hold the canopy in as long as it took to prep and go...if i had been wearing my pin rig, that would have been a nightmare...or it wouldnt have happened....

Normally after I pack a rig, I put it on and stretch my shoulders to try to stress the velcro as much as possible as a test - similar to impersonating the incredible hulk. the possibility of a canopy dump is pretty frightening on a tower, and that's why I always climb with a quick draw. Plus it allows you to clip for rest or emergencies. Yes, I really like the double closing loop on the Asylum/CR rigs. Good thought. Glad to see the pin rigs are being made better and better and more user friendly by the day. I was with Outrager once on a tower and his flap on his pin rig popped open and the tower started pushing his pins out. The design of that rig was changed after he alerted the manufacturer.

I like my pin rig (Vertigo (now Apex) Warlock) more than the velcro (Stunts Extreme). If I didn't pack with clamps (that make a neat trapezoidal pack job which fits the narrower shoulder area easy) and still had a velcro rig with a non-rectangular container I'd probably have a stronger preference for the pins. I'm a back country parachutist with too many bridge jumps not a tower climbing sort of guy; I don't know how that would change things.

With the pin rig, I can move the top of the side flaps to the center and close, then deal with the bottom completely separately.

With the velcro rig it's pull the entire left flap to the right location, pull the entire right flap to the right location, and with the two nice and parallel lay the shrivel flap on top. It's physically more work. I might even sweat on a warmer day. Especially without clamps that make for a solid pack job that fits the rig.

Most pin rigs have a mechanism (velcro, tuck tab) to hold the bridle for hand-held use plus a reasonable tuck tab/flap configuration so out-of-order container openings are not a problem there.

Insufficient pin tension will lead to out-of-order openings that could be a problem. Note the bottom pin in the attachment - 4 seconds slider up. The pins scared me at first so I left them loose. Proper tension didn't make a difference for short slider down delays so I made things reasonable for all jumps.

Normal pack job variations (when you fold the material between A+B, B+C, and C+D groups separately it gets creases that make it fold to the same width every time; and you learn how big things are relative to references, like the long-wise folds compared to your arm) are limited and not enough to make a big difference. If people are borrowing the rig and doing especially bad that may be important. Just check it when you're closing.

Slightly sub-optimal pack job shape can mean the top of the velcro peels. Roll your shoulders in and see what happens before you're done so that doesn't happen at an object. Fixing this is a bigger issue.

More paranoid people have looked at what happens to the pull force on their pin rigs whilst wearing them.

Well this thread & the dozen others like it
are more than enough on the discussion
between velcro and 2 pins... my question
is has anyone ever built a 3 pin rig?

Not suggesting it mind you, just curious.
I do know and understand why 2 pins
replaced 1 pin, hence was thinking one
night about a 3 pin rig, if I did ever
make one I would call it: Trinity

a few peoples made 3pin rigs from chopping up Racers.

 

Remember hearing something a while back about a new bridle for the wingsuiters that has 3 pins 2 for the container and the 3rd pin will cut the wings away so that after deploying they can reach up for the risers straight away instead of taking the small amount of time to unzip..

sorry for going off track i know its about the rig .

what? why? they still sell pin rigs, do they ?