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Please explain to me why some of you feel it's OK to post my Bridge Day 2009 copyrighted, watermarked images (taken straight off our website) on Facebook and other personal pages? I expected a lot more out of the BASE community this year as BASE jumping photographers are now shooting pics, spending thousands of dollars in photo equipment, and suffering in the cold/rain (in an effort to capture your stalled gainer). Many thanks to those of you who purchased high resolution images, which permits you to print your own copies, post them on your website, etc.

I don't see a problem. Unless they are selling them with out your permission. But posting a watermarked photo on facebook is nothing to bitch about. Make your watermark bigger if you don't want people to use your photos. Or use a program that doesn't allow users to right click on the photo.

Something tells me you're not a photographer. You should google the term "copyright" sometime.

No I'm not a "Professional" photographer.
Yes I did google copyright. If they removed your watermark and said they took the photo and are trying to sell it as their own, then maybe you have a case.
Chill out dude it's just a photo.
Personally I think selling photo's is lame. I give all my photo's away for free, even when I print them out on 5 dollar a sheet photo paper.

So what happens when one IS a "Professional" photographer, and taking/selling pictures is their livelyhood. Are they an unworthy scumbag for charging for the shots, and a righteous waste of human life making a living by exploiting others ?

Same could be said about music, basketweaving, etc. They are all jobs, and last time I paid people expect to get compensated for their work. You are probably not shooting with a $2K camera body and a $1.5K lens...

Why try to hold on to something that is impossible? Play along, give jumpers the chance to get low resolutions pics for use on facebook etc. Overall they are promoting your event. Do not want to argue, but they are your heroes who is making your event possible.

Way to take it out of context.
Unworthy scumbag and righteous waste of human life, Maybe I don't know them.
No I'm not shooting with a 2k dollar camera just a 1k dollar camera and a couple 600 dollar len's. Which I paid for myself.
I think if they are shooting on film, you know the stuff that takes skill to get good shots and then using a dark room and processing and time , instead of just pressing a button and then uploading them. Then maybe they can sell them. Like a real professional photographer.
I think Paul hit the nail on the head.

What do you suggest I tell the four photographers I hired who'd like to feed their families.......including my own family? Should I tell them that "everyone does it, so it must be OK"?

Please send copies of all your free photos to me. Can you send them by the end of the week?

I'll have to charge you. So I can feed my family.

If you hired them, they are already paid by you for the hours? I do not suggest to give them full res. but as I said low res. Maybe put it in to your package price for register as well. I do not want to argue, just give suggestions. Also willing to learn how things are done other places, since I am quite new to the organizer game, and do not know anything how you finance your event. Facebook is a great tool to use, where I believe you will get more back from your athletes, if they are posting their low res pics there. So far I have not seen one pic from your event this year. However I do see pics from KL showing up everywhere every year.

Facebook prompts you to agree that the photos you post are YOURS TO DISTRIBUTE, and YOUR PROPERTY. It is unlawful to post them if you are not the creative owner of the image. If you do say you are, and post them under your name, you are, in effect, claiming that you took the photo and it's yours.

I'm sorry this happened to you, base428. I get where you're coming from. It's more than just someone taking the image you painstakingly captured, it's perpetuating the idea that the internet makes everything fair game.

If you like something, music, a movie, whatever, buy it and fund more of them. If everything were free, this wouldn't matter. But photographers and music artists need to survive and be able to continue their jobs if you want to KEEP getting sweet pics of yourselves of professional quality. If you're happy with low-res amateur photos, just take them yourself. You're not God's gift to photographers, by the way. They're not just "taking pictures of their heroes." That's what I do. I don't ask for money for MY photography, and welcome people to repost my B.A.S.E. photography on Facebook. Because I do it for fun, not a job.

If you want to look cool in something that lasts longer than the few seconds you experienced, buy the photo.

just to play devil's advocate here...


it does not ask that if you are simply posting a link. which of course, only redirects one to the owner's website.

i am no lawyer (thank you) but AFAIK it is not illegal to post links unless specifically expressed to not do so by the owner.

My photographers get a cut of sales.

As for Facebook helping promote Bridge Day, that's not necessary. We've sold out of jump slots for the last 8 years. Jumpers don't need Facebook to learn about BD. While I or my team has photographed BD many times in the past, this was our first year for the photo concession (a cold, wet, enlightening year). Fortunately, we have already worked out most of the bugs for next year. Thanks for your comments, I do appreciate them.

Bingo.

this is why I dont go to bridge day... or use the internet... hmmmmmmm... ;-)

I was not thinking of you should have more athletes, but more as a sponsor and media issue that will rise the events value with more exposure.

Do you own every picture taken on the event as well? Your athletes do have to sign photo agreement?

But the internet does make everything fair game, unless you do more than just watermark your work to protect it.
Jason maybe for next year you should look into some software or program that that when you scroll over the photo it blurs, I've seen it before. Maybe one of your Professional Photographers can find you something.
I think you do a good thing with bridgeday, but this is something you didn't look into enough if you want to protect your photos.

expected more from the base community? this is the same community that breaks several laws in order to jump, base jumping was founded on criminal activity, its naive of you to think that people wouldn't take the photos off your website. I am in no way justifying it im just saying that this should not shock you.

I think it has a lot to do with respect. Anyone who has been to BD knows that photographers are there to
take pictures and sell them after the event.

Jumpers should respect the work and time that people put into the event. Don't abuse a service that is there for you to enjoy. If you want to look at your photos...great. Don't steal them.

Blah blah, copyright new age digital rights etc etc. Multi billion dollar industries are having the same problem and a lot of them are adjusting to the business model. Maybe you should decrease the overhead/allow instant downloading of pictures. If the pictures were instant download I'd likely have spent at least $40 already.

People are proud of their jumps and are going to post them online, when they pay $19 a pop for them--it's a new world adjust to it or keep bitching about losing money. The music industry has made it work...

People are going to do what's the path of least resistance. If that's saving the picture and posting on Facebook that's what they will do. If it were easy and instant they'd be buying the pictures and posting them.

Not being a dick bag to your customers also usually has an effect of actually getting them to buy stuff. When you take the attitude those "stalled gainer jumpers" are going to say fuck him, I don't need his photo anyway.

On what I said above: Why not have the 100s of narcissists that we are, with the 1000s of cameras between us. take pictures as staff photographers for a free slot and post the results on flickr or another pay photo site, preferably one where you can take a cut.

This isn't the 1990s anymore.

Instant download? They're ready for download in a few hours, but not instantly. Hell, I've got jumpers wanting me to put heated circus tents in the packing areas to keep everyone comfy. We can only do so much.

This issue is more about respect than anything else. I know a lot of you. And I know a lot of the people who are using my images. Have some respect. Personally, I think it's odd to post someone's image with a big copyright image smack dab in the middle. I can hear it now, "hey mom, that's me jumping the bridge behind the big (C)2009 tag".

I guess I'm a little out of touch with some new BASE jumpers........

But what if they did it while waiting on the CD in the mail or waiting until they get paid? That should be under fair use... A lot of them on facebook are linking to the site directly so they aren't even on facebook per se.

Absolutely no problem using the watermarked pics if planning on buying them. And my joke about "capturing your stalled gainer" was simply that....a joke.

Posting a link is not you taking something and saying it's yours, so yup, you're right, why not just post the link? Not stealing there.

I do agree that the users of the internet for business purposes need to keep up with the rest. But those who don't do everything they can to protect their creative property aren't at fault. Those who do the stealing are. No matter how many people say, "they should have protected it better" they are just allowing it. I also don't see it as the same as BASE trespassing. That doesn't keep the property owners from making money. It's not stealing the property.

I get it, I do. Why pay for something when you can just filch lower quality versions? The bottom reason is because, unlike the music industry or movies, which, despite their griping, have not failed because of the internet, these guys are working in a much smaller industry where their ability to work IS directly influenced by whether or not they are able to sell their photography.

And, actually, anything on the internet is NOT fair game if its creative owners don't want it to be, whether you can right-click-save-as or not.

Personally, I am against copyright, but I am not against others wanting to copyright something, ESPECIALLY if it's their job.

Once I buy the picture, is it ok for me to post it somewhere? Am I buying the copyright at that point?

It's happened every year, it almost laughable that you care now that YOU are running the concession.

If you did it in the past with other photographers, does that make it OK to do it with us? I don't know what you all did in the past or what the old photographer permitted.

What if there was an option to purchase low-rez facebook resolution photos for a reduced price? They would be useless for print (unless shrunken down to wallet-size prints).

That option could be combined with instant delivery.. the cleared image would just show up on the order confirmation/receipt page and they could download it from there.

It would solve the "path of least resistance" issue, and also offer an option for people who don't want to pay $20 for a photo they only want for a facebook album and nothing else. I've coded a similar system in the past, so let me know if you want to set this up and need a hand

By the way, to everyone who's naive enough to think that a right-click stopper or image-blur-on-rollover would do jack shit: If you can see it on your screen, you can take it. The only precaution that does anything is a watermark, and even those can be removed fairly easily with the right software.

For the record, Jason, I didn't jack any of your photos, but I am planning on buying a few when I get around to it. I think you guys did a great job, and even though it was your first year, you kicked whitewater photography's ass. There are more shots from each angle, and the new camera angles are sweet as well.

I thought that the 22 Pics my wife found of me was awesome. I felt that I was approaching RedBull FB in the amount of photographers that were training their cameras on me and getting really nice shots and chunking away the bad ones. I do feel that posting a copyrighted, watermarked (?) photo that is not mine is bad juju for me. I would get a notion that the Karma thingy would bite me on the next jump. Posting links should be ok as that is what they are for unless there is a statement saying that it is not.
But that is just me. Maybe some are impervious to Karma and can justify .....
Take care,
space

yo space, which photo are you in?

and lane, which are some of the highlight photos are you in?

I do agree posting copyright pics with tagging all over is bad juju, and nobody want bad juju?

Take care Spence!

I was amazed when I was able to right click and copy the pics out. I almost sent you a thank you message at the time because it makes it easier to pick out the ones that I want. I can email them back and forth and ask the opinion of the other jumper in the photos.

I guess I figured between being able to copy them (easy to restrict that) and with the copyright watermark obscuring the photos, you were fine with the proofs being used, knowing that people weren't getting the full benefit because the watermark ruins the photo.

That said, it never occurred to me to post them on Facebook. I'll wait until I have bought them to do that. If I would quit responding to things like this, maybe I would get time to pick out the ones I want.

Nice photos. If folks are going to use them, they ought to buy them. Prices seem very reasonable to me especially if there are several photos a jumper wants.

No, purchasing it is not buying the copyright--you don't own the copyright of a book when you buy it at a bookstore. You're just buying that one photo. You still can't legally reproduce or distribute it.

Another issue with this is that Facebook claims ownership and rights to use anything anyone uploads to the site, so if you post something someone else made, you've given something that isn't yours to the site.

In all reality facebook is a terrible place to post anything you don't want anyone to steal.

Also, why post on facebook? If you're going to take the low-res, and the right click works, it's very much legal to save that as long as you don't publish it on a site. Which is what you do with facebook: publish just means "to make public." So to post anything you didn't create on facebook is plagearism (which I remember people bitching about here a while back).

Annibal is right. If YOU didn't take the photograph, it isn't yours. Do the right thing and purchase what you want. The photographers hanging in that basket for 6 hours, and other photographers that worked, deserve to profit a little for their efforts. Remember, it wasn't the nicest of weather that day, so something to help them out would be nice. Just my 2 cents.

Bitch bitch bitch bitch BITCH! Thats some funny shit

just seeing this thread and all the arguments over pictures makes me wanna check them out and see if they are any good..

Bad publicity is good publicity

I am a photographer and also a BASE jumper and I think the prices are F'N CRAZY!!!! You may not get nearly as many people stealing water marked photos if the price wasn't as stupid as it is. If you offered the CD for $20 for all the photos you guys took that day of each jumper you may have had more interest. ILL BE DAMNED IF ILL PAY $20 for A PIC! 450 jumpers X $20 = $9,000 which doesn't sound to bad for a days work. Unless this is your only gig and then your not a photographer. Fact is your pictures are over priced.

no, it's actually YOU who is "F'N CRAZY!!!!"

I refer you to : http://www.vertical-visions.com/...Category_Code=PHOTOS

$4.99a picture ? How much cheaper can it get ?

Ever been to BD before ? WhiteWater Photography kept charging $15ea

Lastly, pictures are completely optional, if you think they are overpriced, it still does not entitle you to steal them. Otherwise we'd have lots of people driving stolen Porsches.

 

First, I didn't steel a single pic and hell I haven't even posted a link to the pics. It is $4.99 a pic but only if you order 20+ pics so thats $100. I drove down to WV that over $100 and we split it a few ways. Then we split the hotel costs $200 a piece because of the quality inn price gouging. O and almost another $100 for registration for a day that used to be free. Is stealing the pics wrong? Yes! However so is driving 13 hours to go to this bridge to to pay to register for an event that makes WV , the town of Fayetteville and Vertical visions a bunch of money, it's highway robbery. What gets 200,000 + people to the bridge? I don't think its the church venders that litter the road. BASE JUMPERS bring the people and make them the money yet we pay to be entertainment.

to sum up my point :

there has got to be honor amongst thieves, otherwise the whole system fails.

epi : yes, I have take tower elevator rides, all 5 of them. And yes, I can level with it being stealing :(

as far as you driving far to this bridge - I don't think you were invited, or even asked to come. I may be wrong, but I don't think you had phone calls and emails begging you to come to this far away bridge, thus "you made your choices - you paid the price". BTW, you must be rich if you split the hotel between 2 people. We have had up to 11 in the room in the years past :)

one more time - I feel that we can be a bit more understanding in support of the workers who are our fellow BASE jumpers.

sorry, one more point.

"the day that used to be free"... haha, welcome to 2009.

do you like the exit ramp ?
do you like the diving board ?
do you like free pizza and beer on Sat night ?
do you like the tshirt other random shit you get at registration ?
how about per jumper fee that is imposed on the organizer ?
how about the insurance that's imposed on the organizer ?
I am guessing the boats that pluck you out of the water and the ambulances standing by cost money too, but I am speculating.

Most recent time I was at the Perrine I had to pay airfare, car rental, and though I didn't pay lodging, I shared floorspace at some chilean jews house, and that itself I consider a big sacrifice on my part, not to mention the other jumpers that were there (at least they got raided in the face, so I felt good about the insect control).

BASE ain't free...

If it's on your screen you can take it, regardless of websites trying to block users from right-clicking, embedding the images in Flash, etc. So a watermark that includes the web address to buy the photos is your best bet.

You can't stop people from sharing media however they like, regardless of legality and respect. This is what the music, TV and movie industry are only just beginning to understand - and it's long overdue. So you need to give the user an attractive alternative. How about 20c/30c for each low-res shot or $1/$2 for each high-res shot? Instantly downloadable, no waiting around.

I guarantee that you'll get far more people (plus their friends/family) willing to fork over a few bucks than if they have to shell out $5-$20/photo - especially when you've got amateur photographers everywhere giving their stuff away for free.

Problem solved.

When you shoot photographs of jumpers do they sign a waiver allowing their image to be photographed, posted on a public website and/or sold for profit?

And if so, do they understand that you now own the rights to their image?

There is actually no waiver needed for me to take pictures of or sell them of random people in a public space, which is where I take pictures of jumpers--with a jumpers camera (my brother's--I don't have one of my own). Now, it does get tricky with selling, sure. I could be liable. If it's an illegal jump it's grounds for a subpoena--however unlikely that may be.

You just don't need to get people to sign a waiver if you are taking their picture in an instance where they could potentially not have their picture taken--which is a weird thing to think about. For example, if I am shooting on a street corner and there are passersby, they could avoid my camera. In BASE it's more difficult, especially if it's an event, because arguably they can't avoid my camera in freefall. But if it's a public place, which the air is, I don't need their permission to capture "their" image and sell it. It's still MY image, even if their body is represented in it.

It's also funny when I take pictures of my brother and other jumpers, because I do not do so for a profit or a living, I do so because they are cool, the event is cool, it looks cool, I like taking photos, and I like making art out of cool things. That's where MY profit comes from--it's not monetary.

It's never "their image." It's their BODY, but not their IMAGE. And if it's not pornographic, in public, not manipulated or photoshopped (which could be slander or whatever), then there's really no argument that any of it is theirs. Unless they designed the rig/parachute, or have labels with copyrighted images, which is also a factor and why you'll see things blurred on reality tv, the whole image is mine. Not theirs. Waiver or no. A waiver would give me a conclusive ownership, sure, they'd be signing away any right they have to even contest it, basically.

Another thing to think about is: commission. I draw the t-shirt designs for Bridge Day. However, legally, once I send it to Jason, while I am the creative owner of the image I no longer own the rights to distribute it for money. It's owned by the person that paid me. Creative ownership is a tricky thing, sometimes, so even in this thread, while I definitely sympathize more with the photographers, there is no "you guys are bad people" and "these guys are good people."

*Cough Print Screen Cough*

Right click disabling does nothing...

The problem that all of you still don't seem to get is that they are essentially standing on the railroad tracks trying to tell the train to stop. When the train runs them over they are like, "but gosh we spent all this money for extra angles and better photographers, we deserve money."

Get volunteer staff photographers, put them on flickr and quit trying to leech off the community.

i didn't get a tshirt or any random shit at registration.

and ya could establish the photo icons in a small enough wiindown and megapixel range where print screen wouldnt do shit...

anyway, i didnt even go to b day soooo i really dont care. but a digital image of whatever for more than sayyyy 5 bucks is ridiculous IMHO

Volunteer photographers = sounds great on paper. Who wants to work next year for free (don't everyone raise your hands)?

Leech off the community? What a crock of shit. Jumpers want to buy photos and have done so for years. I simply hired BASE JUMPERS as photographers to do the same job as the local guy did in the past. If anything, I put money in BASE JUMPERS pockets where it didn't exist before. Sorry to everyone for trying to take care of BASE jumpers. It saddens me to see so many misguided souls on here. Unfortunately, the BASE community isn't what it used to be.

Please email me with your requests, complaints, compliments. I won't be able to access this site for awhile......

I'd estimate that the electric motor used in one of those elevators is no more than about 5 kW. Industrial users in the US pay between 5 and 10 cents a kWh. So the electricity cost isn't likely to be more than 0.10*36/60*5 = $ 0.30.

If it clears your conscience, I guess you could leave a quarter in the elevator each time you use it, but personally, I think this is more likely to cause suspicion than appreciation.

 

$5 at any point is a bargan. The normal for event photography like this is $20 per sheet or image. I sell equipment to the guys that do this type of thing. People want good shots of themselves doing strange things or in their hobby. My biggest customer is a guy that takes pictures on a golf course in Hilton Head. Its part of the event I was suprised you could right click on the images and save them and sure Jason wont do that again. Photographers battle the copyright thing all the time. I am shocked you guys gave him such a rash of crap over his complaint. I do think next year it would be a cool idea to sell cheap memory sticks with 10 images for X amount of money. Oh and not sure there is enough money to get me to organize bday herding cats dealing with politicians you can have it!!!!!

Agreed.
Unfortunately, people have trouble viewing things from any perspective but their own. This is NOT the first time BASE jumpers have failed to pay for things, show disrespect, choose to participate yet ignore rules, etc.

I tend to wonder about the HI viewpoint... Sure they ramped up security and hassles to make jumpers feel unwelcome. Did they have a reason? Did they tire of the same behavior as seen in this thread? Did they see their actions as a REaction to jumper's acts?

The copyright debate is nothing new to these forums either.

Jason does an outstanding job, but is not the first organizer to receive criticism.

As for Jason's photos... I have yet to buy any, but I ignored the Whitewater concession as well. If next year no one took pictures, I probably would not notice.
(I do loyally buy the video, but it is more for an over view of the event than for my jumps.)

I did not read the complete thread...
On a very professional organized crane boogie this year in Poland (Thanks again Olek...), Olek just put up a server where every jumper could upload and download photos (for free of course). Also 2 or 3 professional photographers uploaded the photos. They sold the pictures to the press but gave them away to the jumpers for free :-)
That`s why I like the family style events where a BASE jumper finds a way to access an object and just invites his friends :-)

If I am taken to a new jump and I bring a camera, I consider the pictures OURS, not mine. I would expect the same of a photographer jumper I invite to one of my objects.

I was just about to purchase ~20 shots from the Vertical Visions website (it took family members a week to decide which images they wanted, otherwise I'd have ordered long ago), and lo and behold the price has gone up.

Those images are owned by Vertical Visions and Vertical Visions can sell them at whatever price point it wants, but it sucks to have to pay an unexpected 25% premium just because I waited a few days to order. At least a warning before prices went up would have been appreciated.

If this were just some unknown company, instead of purchasing now, I'd wait a couple more days in the hope that the price would come back down. But since Jason puts so much work into Bridge Day every year, I'm going ahead and placing an order, even with the extra 25%. I may not like the extra cost, but given how much selfless effort Jason and others put into Bridge Day every year, a $20 premium isn't worth complaining about.

Jason's got a thankless job and he gets a lot of undeserved flak from people who think they know better how Bridge Day should be run or how he should run his business. Given the circumstances, I think he and the other organizers have done a great job.

That said, hopefully all the small issues that have been raised lately (e.g. photo pricing, the delay before photos were put online, lack of space in the restaurant at River Expeditions, etc.) will be fixed next year. To err once is expected, but there's no reason those mistakes should be repeated.

Edit: Because I suck at math

 emailed a few of me to some relatives and friends. I am not a huge video or picture guy, so i probably won't purchase any this year. I was however, surprised at how easy to right-click and send out they were, and how unintruding the watermark is. I'm totally with people paying for photos, people worked, they deserve to be paid. if ya been caught stealin, tough shit. take your lumps, apologize, and make it right. At the very least, jason deserves some respect. i can't see how his company profits exorbitantly from running bridge day, so thanks to jason for making it all possible

KC

i can't see how his company profits exorbitantly from running bridge day,

I agree but he probably made a coin or two on fixed without compensating collective soul. He may not even sell that video anymore. It was awhile ago, he should, however, understand minor(low res pic) transgressions.

This is also why I have absolutely no problem with you and your friends posting photos I took. I know that I "leech" your camera, take photos of you and your friends, and am really only there at your whim.

Which, by the way, should happen more often. Except for all this dratted snow. I do not see how you ski BASE folks out there handle this. I need me some warm weather!

I honestly waffle about copyright and "stealing." I like being told or asked when someone uses my art, but unless it's a straight up commission where I'm dedicating long hours to it, like these photographers, I don't ask for money and am just grateful someone likes it.

I mean absolutely no offense because I think you do a great job organizing the event and all. But I have always viewed organized photography concessions as paparazzi and treat them as such = very little respect. If they want the opportunity to make money from selling individual photos then they will work for free it's called a commission. There are millions of people who work for commission every single day.
Is this about covering their costs or making a profit? Because at the prices you are charging per photo I am sure you have covered the costs already. If it is about the profit refer to my paparazzi statement.
I'm sorry you feel that people are stealing your photos but you sound a little more worried about the lack of sales then any true copyright issues. As previously suggested try using a program that will not allow people to save the images from your site.
For the record I did look at my photos, curiosity and all that. I did not save any of my photos, as I don't need pictures with water marks through the center. And finally I will not be buying any photos of me from you, again refer to my paparazzi comment.

how about up the cost by 5$ and get a pro to do the photography. how many people pay to jump there? then just have the pics available for download for free, a few weeks after the event is over and the press can't steel them.

A pro DID do the photography.

I'm the guy that was shooting from the basket, and triggering the overhead cam.

All this about free images, and volunteer photographers, all I can respond to that with is you get what you pay for.
You certainly wont get coverage from 4 angles, of every single jump, for 6hrs.
The crane rental certainly isnt free and niether is the equipment, or more importantly the TIME involved.
My time is valuable and so is yours.
Especially when its off and on between rain sleet and drizzle at 38degrees, in a basket 900ft off the deck, watching all your friends jump the piss out of the bridge, while you just snap away.
Not to mention its a premium event. You jumping that bridge ties you to all that is basejumping. A nice image makes it wasy to remember.
Especially when its your first, or a signifigant jump.
Everyone has a brisgeday picture, somewhere. Old friends, first jumps, hell yeah. Back in the dayzZ, and all that.

All this bitching, seems so juvenile. I hope you like your pics.

-b

hmmm...
I thought BD was staffed mostly by volunteers already?


As far as appropriate prices, I think the one getting the big stiff one is the video crew. Think of it. How many hours of editing must they do? How much labor is involved after the event? Who is paying for the pressing of the discs?

Jason might learn something if he compares the sales of the DVDs to those of the stills.

It seems to me that both the still photo and the video folks had to suffer through horrible weather. I also suspect the still folks will put in a fraction of the time outside the event that the video crew will. (As always, I may be wrong about this...)

I also bet many will burn copies of the DVD within days of receiving it...

A tremendous amount of work goes into making BD a success. Jason does a great job of co-ordinating a significant staff of volunteers as well as paid photographers. They all deserve credit and respect. I wish more folks would appreciate the work of all involved.

didn't realize it was so hardcore. I have 7 jumps during bridge day and the only pic I have is one i took from the LZ the day before while helping set up the 'bridge day video' shoot. it's the only one I need, really.

but your right, something that time consuming deserves more than 5$ per jumper.
maybe a photo package paid up front?

I thought this whole thread was about some lone guy taking pictures, not 4 different angles and a crane.

<disclaimer>I think the Bridge Day event was superbly organized, and well-executed. Despite the horrible weather, I had a blast. So I'm thankful for all the effort that went into it, from the volunteers and paid professionals. Thank you.</disclaimer>

Now to the debate...
So why did I feel it was OK to share the proofs with family and friends? That was the original question. Some of the images were outstanding, and will make nice keepsakes. So I intend to order a few of them. But I truly don't plan to purchase all of the images. Nonetheless, it's nice to share the whole story with family. So while I did not post any pics on Facebook, I did share the proofs with family and friends. This is non-commercial use and certainly doesn't benefit me other than bringing a smile to friends' faces. If I booked a professional photo session for family pictures, we'd be afforded the opportunity to mull over the proofs before committing to an order.

This is completely different than taking someone else's professional work (even if it includes images of me) and benefiting commercially from it without crediting the artist.

Overall, I believe the artists on Bridge Day worked very hard for the images they produced, and many of them are stunning. Further, the art could not have happened without a lot of logistics. So the artists and their supporters deserve to benefit from the investment. But the art also could not have happened without the models - us. So we should be able to mull over the proofs.

So, all that said, we should be careful about the proverbial pot and glass houses and whatnot when we engage in this debate. (See attachment)

Kindest Regards,

Chris

So you decided to pour over my website to find something out of place? I bet you never considered the fact that I got authorization to use those screen grabs under the contracts I made?

You want to share proofs with family and friends? Great. Email them all you want - no problem. However, don't put them on your website or on Facebook. And for all you jumpers out there who think they should get some kind of "talent fee" when we take your photo or video at a public base event - give me a break.

What's your problem Chris? Why the attack?

Come on, guys, why can't we all just have a big

base428,

It really wasn't an attack; it was a simple rebuttal. I try to be reasonable and organized with my rebuttals. Hence, the reference. I did consider that you may have gotten permission, but no credit is mentioned, and your purposes are commercial. Whereas, by virtue of the watermark, the Vertical Visions files that have been shared/posted all have the potential to drive traffic, and hopefully purchases, to your website. It's a stretch, but it's at least possible. When credit isn't given, the possibility disappears.

Ultimately, I believe my rebuttal was more in response to the tone of the approach. "Please don't use Vertical Visions' images publicly, as people worked hard on them..." may have come off better than the "What makes you think..." approach. No talented photographers = no photos. No silly jumpers = no subject matter for the photographers. I'm not saying, "Pay me for hucking my meat off the bridge." I'm saying we need to be symbiotic and cooperative about this whole arrangement.

Thank you again for the hard work you put into the event. And I am excited about the images available for purchase. There were a lot of talented people supporting the event that day.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

It was an attack. Don't assume.

If someone plasters my copyrighted and watermarked photos on Facebook, don't think I'm going come in here with a smile....

EDIT: BD consumes a lot of my time and my stress levels are a bit elevated this time of year. Believe it or not, I just spent 15 minutes on the phone with a blind non-jumper who wants to do a BASE tandem at BD2010. Too much of my life gets sucked away by BD....

base428,

I can appreciate your position. And I apologize if my comments were untoward. They were not meant as an attack, and if they came off that way, it was my failure.

Ultimately, I froze my ass off standing in line to jump, so I know the photographers were suffering to capture these images. I hope people who are impressed with the images go ahead and make purchases. The event was a blast and many of the images are nothing short of stunning.

Cheers to all!

~ Chris

base428,

Thank you for that. And while I probably took the wrong approach, what I was trying to get at is this:

(Bridge + base428 + Jumpers + Photographers) * 9.8m/s/s = One kick-ass event.

And while you should be pissed off if anyone is stealing your images for commercial gain, I would hope a bunch of gravity-drunk jumpers excitedly sharing their photos with friends, family, and other goofballs would possibly pay off for Vertical Visions and make future Bridge Days more successful.

I got excited because I don't take kindly to being called a thief when I'm actively trying to drive people toward vertical-visions.com to possibly benefit Vertical Visions. My thinking is that more traffic to your website could benefit all of us nut cases. Hell, if my Mom clicks over to your site, perhaps I'll get an 8X20 framed for Christmas.

But Mom's not going to know anything about it if I don't say, "Hey Mom, that's me behind the (c)2009 Vertical Visions Watermark! Killer, eh?".

You're doing a good thing. I hope people appreciate that and are already planning for BD2010. I just checked the forecast and it's looking good!

Cheers,

Chris

September 16, 2009 @ 2:42pm


If your life is being sucked away and your profits are not where you would like to feed your family, maybe you need to evaluate if it's something you should continue.

Life is short, don't sweat the small stuff.

have you thought about providing that advice to those critical of the event?

some people like feeling satisfied by contributing to something greater than themselves. It is NOT always about the money. heck, BD is run mostly as a volunteer organization. focusing on fair compensation for the still people feels entirely disrespectful to all the others who worked for free.

the participants who disagree with how Jason runs the event do not need attend. the still photographers can also choose not to work next year. simple. no one is forcing either to participate.

others spend a serious amount of money to fly in from outside the US. they seem to find value in the event. for those in the Eastern US, BD tends to be far cheaper than a trip to ID as well.

personally, I tend to be much happier when I focus on the smiles, jumps, friends, etc. rather than the money. to each his own...

Whine Whine Whine, It's a low res photo with your watermark on, have you ever heard of the principal of "Fair Use"?

If you are the person been photographed, and you're not publishing all of the photo's from the site just the watermarked low-res ones featuring yourself, and you're not gaining any commercial advantage, then you're not infringing any copyright law.

Bang... we have a winner!!!!

$20 pffft

I'm with Jason and Jennifer. This is not just about the photos. This is about respect for the amount of work that Jason puts into BD and for the photographers who sat there freezing all day, with their expensive cameras in the rain, to get these photos. They are professionals and deserve to get paid for the job they did. I was disappointed when I saw these photos popping up on facebook. It's sad that non-photographers have such a sense of entitlement they think they should get these photos for free.

I've been in the same position. Many people have poached my photos. I used to post nice prints at events for everyone to enjoy, until too many people were taking photos of my photos, right in front of me! Now I have to post photos with obnoxious text overlays. I've had facebook users, whom I don't know, send me messages that say "Hey send me the ____ photo." That's it, seriously, they think that I'm just going to comply and spend my free time sending them my images that cost me lots of $$ to produce for free. I still find users using my photos as their profile photo, without my permission, watermark or not. My question to them usually is "What do you do for a living?" "Why don't you do that for free?" As another cameraman once said, "This is how I make my living, I can't afford to do it for free."

Jason, thank you. Thank you, as always, for all the hard work you do. And I was excited to see the photo concession taken over by base jumpers this year. Mostly because it's nice to see base jumpers making money and not the white water rafting company. I think the photos are great, especially the boom camera looking down. I haven't decided which ones I'm going to buy yet, but I'm planning on buying several downloads, and only then will i post them on facebook.

What happen to you guys?
Lost ya'll that night.

Pics 3651-68 and 3688-92 without 3690.
Get some rest,
Take care,
Tracy

Jason

Why did you choose to watermark the images if you didn't expect they would be downloaded?

And for the record.. instructions found in your website's HTML code mean every time your webpages are visited the images are downloaded automatically to the viewer's hard-drive... so unless you are pursuing legal action the term "stolen" is pretty cowardly and "copyright" is moot given the images are forced-upon the visitor's hard-drive and have to be manually deleted from the temp files.

It's akin to me intentionally choosing to place a $50 buck note at a DZ with my name on it and then calling all the skydivers there THIEVES because it didn't find it's way back to me... no different.

And if someone took my photo without me asking them to and published it online then I (and many others) feel I have some rights to the images... especially to use a downgraded and watermarked inferior version to supplement my social page or desktop.

It seems you have made a number of choices here. The level of protection you chose. The level of watermarking and resolution you chose, the commercial venture you chose to undertake, the expectation of the BASE community you chose. I wish you luck with all that and hope you find some peace 'cause your past work has been highly admirable.

You just gotta stop calling ppl thieves.

g.

Are the customers who attended Bridge Day complaining that their life is being sucked away, that your profits are low and they need to feed their families? Perhaps I have missed those comments. I would guess steep prices for photos is not in everyone's budget with the economy at this point either.

When someone one month makes a public spectacle of announcing he is donating $1000 to the rescue of a jumper and then later comes out publicly to call people thieves stealing food from his family that's a definite mixed signal.

Bridge Day is a business, taking photographs is part of that business. Provide a service to your customers, if they don't like it, they have the right to complain, i.e. Holiday Inn sucks. That shouldn't mean that the business owners come out and denounces the clients of his service as thieves and calls into question their "respect" and "integrity".

It appears, Jason likes being the guy whomever pats on the back and says "that was fun", but he doesn't like people questioning his business tactics. Best resolution "don't start a street fight in public".

That reason is why I said perhaps he needs to look at why he is holding on to this event if it is giving him so much grief and taking from his personal life's happiness. Life is short, if your miserable, stop doing it.

Jason might consider setting up a business plan, stick to that strategy and let someone else handle customer service/complaints. Why alienate your customers when you enjoy the role of "good guy"?

Weaving and bobbing in the vegetable aisle attempting to do a price change after the granny has the veggies in her cart is not professional.

Again, you focus on Jason. I asked if you considered criticizing the other side.

It takes 2 to argue. You only focus on 1 side.

Don't like the prices? Don't buy them. (Do you know what Whitewater was charging?)

Don't like having to pay to jump? Don't attend.

Don't like the HI policies? Don't stay there.

Don't like the customer service of a business? Don't patronize them.

It's called taking responsibility for one's actions.

Or do you actually expect to get exactly what they want?

Sure, Jason screws up and makes mistakes. Last time I checked, he was human. I still think he does a great job organizing BD. He does a better job than his predecessors.

Remember that old saying, "If you don't have anything nice to say..." I don't think it ends with, "then rant and rave!"

(Note: there are entire threads complaining about something at BD, Jason has not participated in all of them. If I banned him, do you really think the noise would stop?)

All,

I guess I like torturing myself as I sit here and type this reply. Please understand that I'm usually not "myself" in the weeks before and after BD. I maintain a regular 40 hour a week job and only do BD during weekends and evenings, so BD isn't really the business that some of you may believe. I've learned to work with minimal sleep and I hope I'm doing an OK job as organizer. Being a WV native and having tons of jumps off the NRGB, I felt a calling to help organize the event seven years ago in order to keep it running as smoothly as possible.

Yes, I make mistakes. As for the complaints about pricing changes, please note that we actually lowered prices since BD, then raised them a little. We're all new to the photo concession and I'm trying to do the right thing for my photographers (who get a cut of sales), the jumpers, and eventually myself. I put a lot of money and time into the photo concession and will take a loss this year with all the equipment I had to purchase. We're doing pretty well as far as sales, so that isn't why I started this thread.

I began this thread because I've been a BASE videographer and photographer since 1993. Just like Lew, I've had countless photos/videos taken from me and used without my permission. Believe it or not, the Bridge Day Commission and even the State of WV have used my images in some way without proper permission. I guess I've been burned so many times in the past that I'm a little sensitive to others posting my (our) hard work online. It's definitely a sore spot for me. If jumpers want to download watermarked images to their hard drives and email to their friends, that's perfectly fine with me. I'm not sure why some of you criticized me for that, as I never posted anything about it and am fine with it. My only complaint, which has been maliciously expanded by some jumpers on this thread, was against jumpers posting watermarked images on Facebook. I received several emails from jumpers alerting me of this and have since received many emails from jumpers saying they thought it was OK since everyone else was doing it. It's really not OK, even if you have the technical knowledge to do so. Posting someone's hard work on other websites isn't cool and I think most people wouldn't appreciate their images being posted elsewhere without permission. Photographers and artists can understand this much better than most.

For those of you who I consider my friends, you'll know that I'm organized, fair, and sometimes "to the point". However, I'm not the best writer and my posts often lack the emotion and tact that is necessary in today's world. Sometimes I tell it like it is and that gets me into trouble. Could I have been more polite in my original post? Absolutely. I haven't called anyone "thieves" unless you want to extract that from the thread title. Perhaps I was naive about how jumpers would treat the photos. I consider nearly every BASE jumper my friend and we all share a common bond that can sometimes be stronger than blood.

I don't organize BD for the minimum wage it offers. I do it for the challenge that lies within organizing a large event and for the smiles on first time jumper's faces at the Saturday night party. If my posts offended any of you, please accept my apology. I appreciate the comments, criticisms, and suggestions that you all provide (good or bad), so please keep them coming. Thanks!

The photo quality this year of me in freefall was by far the best quality that I have ever seen. So yes, I'm going to purchase them, and then I'll feel free to post them.

 

"If I thought I could get a decent job in Fayetteville I'd move there. Instead I travel cross country once a year just to play. That magnificent bridge is always the same, but Bridge Day is always something new.

The perceived problems of Bridge Day this year were voiced by many and varied. "There's too many skydivers here!" "There's too many BASE jumpers here!" "I came here to BASE jump, not spin donuts!" "The Chamber of Commerce should be paying us!" And the ever popular, "We want our money back!"

Wait a second. Is this BASE jumping or a skydiving boogie? It's really not unusual for BASE jumpers to travel great distances, spend lots of money, and not make as many jumps as they'd like. The fact is 300 people did BASE jump from the NRGB! Doesn't anybody find that amazing anymore?"

-The Tolls Are Us!
-Bridge Day 1990
-The Fixed Object Journal

The point I'm trying to make is, ad nauseum, some things never change . . .

It needs to be said that in any Bridge Day organizer contest Jason is the hands down winner. And it needs to be said, over and over, because the few back slaps he gets on Bridge Day doesn't make up for the work involved or for the post Bridge Bridge Day bricks that get thrown his way.

So I say he's allowed to come on here and vent when something (whatever that something is) becomes the yearly final straw.

We've seen Bridge Day go through many forms of organization. It started with none, then it became too heavy handed, then too loose, and now it's just about right. Everyone's primary concern should be the preservation of Bridge Day. And it should be in the back of our minds that it could, with the stroke of a pen, be gone someday.

Price wise the current registration fee in 2009 dollars is fairly comparable to the $35 I paid in 1986. But the BD experience itself is getting better by magnitudes. We've gone from 100 people crowding around a crappy hotel TV to full blown video fests. We've gone from townies gouging us for rides up the hill to simply catching the next bus. And overall we've gone from (hey, it is World Series time) being in the minor leagues to being in the show!

But, by far, most of the complaints over the years have been about the money. But BASE, I've found, always takes all the money you have. If you have a hundred bucks, you drive to TF, sleep in your car, and eat burgers. If you have a thousand dollars, you fly to TF, get a hotel room, and eat steak. Either way you always come home broke.

Some have said if you don't like something at BD just don't go. But that no consolation if you love the event. The better advice I can offer, in the interest of all of us, is the same advice you used to get with parking ticket back in the day. You could fight it, but why? Just pay the fucking two dollars!

Thanks, Jason . . .

NickD

He shouldn't have to. The LAW is there to protect him.

Thanks for being part of the bullshit entitlement generation.

I think you need to rebuff your copyright law knowledge. Commercial use is a large part, but far from the only part, and to post a photo on facebook is to claim ownership of it, which means you are saying it's your and you took it. Being IN the photo has nothing to do with it.

Your welcome.

I guess the "LAW" failed than. Just like your reply.

Peice OUt
SinCerly You're's
The Bullshit Entitlement Generation

Again, you focus on Jason. I asked if you considered criticizing the other side.

It takes 2 to argue. You only focus on 1 side.

Don't like the prices? Don't buy them. (Do you know what Whitewater was charging?)

Don't like having to pay to jump? Don't attend.

Don't like the HI policies? Don't stay there.

Don't like the customer service of a business? Don't patronize them.

It's called taking responsibility for one's actions.

Or do you actually expect to get exactly what they want?

Sure, Jason screws up and makes mistakes. Last time I checked, he was human. I still think he does a great job organizing BD. He does a better job than his predecessors.
__________________________________________________

As a moderator you seem to have quite the slant in this argument as well.

If you could legally go jump another bridge because you don't like the way BD runs here, then yes, you pays your money and you get what you want or walk aaway. However, their is no other object quite like this one, so if you don't like the way things are run, you still maybe shouldn't have to miss it because you don't like the operators. So yes, in this case, customers have the right to bitch about costs, etc.

Even though I'm a moderator, I think I have a right to discuss the topics like any other user. Before I became active, Tom acted as the "answerman." Outrager rarely posts like a moderator. Their is a precedent.

I also know of many who jump that "unique object" outside of BD. It happens.

When I jump, I deal with the facts on the ground. The wind may not be perfect, the lz might not be what I want, there may not be a great place to tie off, etc. Heck, everything might be perfect, but a little voice says, "Nah..." and I climb down. I don't whine and complain. It's part of jumping.

I know of no other organized event that typically turns into such a gripefest as BD. It sounds like KL could learn something from Jason, but generates much less noise here.

It is great to see all the joy and smiles of the jumpers at BD. It is a bummer to read all the negativity afterwards...

ps
if it helps, think of it as trying to moderate the noise?

if you take something thats for sale with out buy'in it.......your a fuk'in thief........thats all there is to say about it!

grin and bear it regarding the photos. i think most have lost the appreciation to realize that the base jumpers led by Jason have for once acted as a group in wielding power against the holiday inn and the police.

Hey Mate cant borther reading all 5 pages of this..

Im a photografer myself(NSFW ) http://www.stefanfaber.com

Copyright dosnt mean they cant post pictures of them self,so if you shoot a photo of a guy he see´s it on your web he owes it equally to you as long as you didnt made a contract.

What your photografer´s rights are:
To be creditted for the photo evrytime its showen(done by your water mark)
That only the photografer can edit the pic,that includes croping,contrast,black n whithe you name it

Why not use it as bennefitting your web,coosting it up like a comercial for all them online vers. then thouse who buys it can get better terms.
place your watermark at bad spots in the pic..

mail me if you want help,im not much into theese sites anymore..

More devil's advocate:

Is it stealing to take the sample brownies at the grocery store? are people buying low res watermarked samples, or full size images?

Even though I'm a moderator, I think I have a right to discuss the topics like any other user. Before I became active, Tom acted as the "answerman." Outrager rarely posts like a moderator. Their is a precedent.
__________________________________________________

Just because they did doesn't make it right. I think moderators should have a regular icon as well, if they want to insert an opinion, and keep their green icon for mod duties.... Just my opinion.

I can't change the color of my name and actually lack moderator powers on most forums. Thus I suggested having a second user name for non-moderator posts. Request denied. (I bet the same policy applies to all the mods over at dz.com as well.)

you go Jen!

After too many years working in the legal community and many years of BD patronage, I agree that it's totally disrespectful and disheartening that the pics were just hijacked for free.

I still haven't gotten my shots for this year and when I have the funds, I will pay for them and then post them.

Thanks for your organizing the event and making such a crappy weather BD such a fun time...you are appreciated.

Kaye

Jason, everything Nick posted I agree with 100%.

This past BD I was standing in line, I had just finished my gear inspection and was on the steps waiting to get my badge. The photographer that was systematically going around taking photos just took my picture(which is worth every penny, something so simple, is always the last thing I think of. I forgot mine at home. Next year Im paying also, much easier.) ANYWAY, The photographer asked the guy standing behind me if he needed his picture taken also, I heard him say "yes".Then the guy taps me on the shoulder and asked me how much it cost to jump. I gave him the look over, you know who Im talking about, I know BASE jumpers come from all walks of life, but this guy didn't look like he was a BASE jumper. His question and appearance bewildered me to the point that I could not think of the answer. So I told him 75 dollars or so? and turned back around. The next thing I know I hear him talking to you and was saying "I have about 20 military round and 6 civilian square jumps"

This is the good part...

You calmly and collectively told him the requirements were clearly posted on the web site and he didn't have enough experience."

To that I applaud you.

Considering ALL the stress you must be under and all the time and effort you put into making BD awesome, you handled that very very very well, I would have choked that fat fucker and kicked him in the nuts,

SO, after saying all that...

......vent Jason, vent.