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Recently inspected a very experienced
BASE jumper's canopy and found no
rubber band for the primary stow.

The little loop where one would lark's
head a rubber for this purpose had
never been used... it was totally flat
and clean.

Any reason why someone would not
use a primary stow? You know, that
one bight of line that is put into the
space between the tail pocket and
the topskin of the canopy.

FYI - I have used a single wrap
of a normal band on every jump
from 190 feet to 1,000 feet.

The purpose of the primary stow is to prevent the slider from coming down before you get to line stretch. Maybe he does a lot of slider off jumps. Although when i was taught to pack i was shown to still use a primary stow going slider off. I know people that say its slows your opening down when not using a slider and for that reason they do not use a primary stow on slider off jumps. Although I am curious to know how many people use a primary stow for slider off jumps.

Stow used ( two wraps ) for about the last 80 slider off jumps ( from 130 to 270ft )

Ive always used mine (single wrap) for slider off, but I know several people who dont.

I think one reason I heard was it made their line stows cleaner without the bulk of the stow under the tail pocket.

Some people don't use a primary stow if they're using direct slider control.

I dont use mine. I do mostly low slider off freefalls. The reasons I dont use it are:

-slider off
-makes it harder to maintain neat lines in the tail pocket
-I've seen other jumpers tarps with line burns under and beneath the tail pocket
-KISS

I did a bunch of slider down jumps without the stow when I was first starting.

I use it on every jump now, two wraps. 2" stow for shorter delays, 4"+ for longer delays.

slider has little to do with it I think, I use it to stop inflation until line stretch. it stages the inflation.

without it, the tailpocket can easily get 'blown' to above the canopy before the lines have come to line stretch, leaving a ball of lines loose in the air. shitty deal in my opinion.

100% vital in slider up to have line continuity to stop tension knots. just what I think.

also, I do my primary stow carefully to make sure the tail lines are on top as I make the stow, (meaning those lines will be pulled out last of the primary stow) I think this helps stage the opening and avoid line-overs. not that I believe in those anyway.

+1

I too believe that on slider down jumps the primary stow works to prevent your canopy from inflating before you reach line stretch and ensures that all lines will be loaded evenly upon a correctly staged inflation. Is it necessary? Obviously not. Will it help to stage your deployment? Definitely.
I also call bullshit on any one who wants to say it will slow down your openings. I use 2 wraps on every single jump and have freefalled well under 200ft regularly with no problems what so ever. While 2 wraps will stage a deployment there is no possible way that that fuck arse little rubber band will be able to slow the opening of a 280ft BASE canopy.

why didn't you just ask them when you were inspecting the gear?

+2

I heard that you were one of the old locals in the low country, jumping the Buzzard tower?

you talkin' to me?

why didn't you just ask them

Because the jumper who owns
this gear was in the hospital.

last 600 jumps. allways with the primary stow, SD and SU

oic

heal well!!

I could be wrong, but i seem to remember the apex explanation having something to do with preventing line-lock. i always use primary stow regardless of slider placement.

Luckily the jumper in question
is healing nicely... The stow is
seen differnet by each....

I like it and use it on every jump
from 190 feet to 1,000 feet BUT
this jumper is trying something
new which has to do with rubber
bands on the slider.

Peace out!!

can u give us detail?

[quote this jumper is trying something
new which has to do with rubber
bands on the slider.

Peace out!!

Bodyguard,

You've made a small error in your post.

The "Quoted" text in this particular case should be in Juvenile Green whereas your text or any other text can remain in black

nah i never paid him to use that green so thats why its in the normal black...

Just thought Id resurrect this thread to tell everyone that I just used the primary stow for the first time on slider off and I loved it. The staging of my opening was a lot more obvious, I could feel it. Will be doing this every time from now on.

Cool, glad you found a new trick.

Yep, I personally think, not know, but think
there is 0 down side to using it on all jumps

Thats what I think too, which is why I started using it.

I don't use my primary stow on PCA's or low freefalls.

I don't want anything that could possibly slow down inflation on low jumps (0 - 1 sec), even by the slightest amount. On longer delays (2+ sec) I use it.

Keeps things simple, no additional points where things could go wrong at low altitudes. A 150ft object is not really where I care too much about the nice staging of a deployment.

Well, I think I use primary stow specifically for situations such as low freefalls. PCA/SL the canopy should not have airspeed and there for opening should be properly staged to after linestretch. BUT with a low freefall the canopy has airspeed and could have pre-mature inflation, meaning that as the lines are streaming from tailpocket one side of the canopy starts inflating and line dump occurs giving a high probability of tension knots, strange lineovers, and off heading openings.

I PCA/SL are strange things and can be dealt with with strange packing methods. (not saying primary stow is weird to use or not)

note I do not ALWAYS use primary stow, but I never use it for anything but a SL, PCA, Direct Bag, or some other kind unpacked.

Funny you guys bring this up because I was kinda wondering about this. I might be doing another 173' SL jump over the weekend and didnt know if the primary stow would be a good idea or a not so good idea.

Now you guys have me confused. Which is better?

I've used the primary stow on every jump... and I've done 175ft SL.. Nice openings on static all the time...

What exactly are you expecting to go wrong with your primary stow? Comments like that prove that you don't really understand the way your canopy functions/should function during deployment.


Again to dismiss the correct staging of your canopy shows you don't truly understand the reason for it. I think that you need to care about correct inflation on low free falls as you will not have the time to deal with any problems caused by premature inflation. Even a 90 off can be a problem if you end up turning all the way into the dirt because of it.

Yes you can jump without a primary and yes it will probably work. But don't go advising people that it is in any way better. An option, yes. Your preference, yes. Better, no.

i have yet to witness an offheading caused by asymetrical inflation on slider down jumps.
got video?
oh and i don't use the stow for slider down jumps.
a lot of static lines and low freefalls among my jumps.
no inflation/staging caused problems so far.
never witnessed something like that too.

I have.

Not readily available.

Never said you couldn't or shouldn't. Merely pointed out that it is better to use the stow on all jumps to ensure correct inflation.

I think you missed the point of my original post so again I will reiterate. Can you jump with out a Primary stow? Yes. Will it work? Yes. Is it better? No.

Merely pointed out that it is better to use the
stow on all jumps to ensure correct inflation.

Still a low timer here but I agree 100%

What I'm worried about is any sort of primary stow hangup (even if it's very short - I have heard of this happening from my mentor) on low altitude jumps. At linestretch you're really eating altitude quickly and the last thing I want at that point is any sort of hangup/hesitation.

I don't necessarily think it's better, and may change my mind in the future - but I've witnessed dozens of jumps with this configuration with no adverse effects. Personal preference - as with most things in BASE.

I only ever single wrap my primary stow and from times I've had repack to move my slider, I've noticed that the tension to pull the lines from the stow isn't that great. Doesn't really feel like it'd be enough to cause any sort of hang up unless you're trying to deploy with almost no airspeed. Maybe just a bit more than what I need to pop my pins (based on my precision calibrated right arm of course...)

Is there anyone out there with a spring scale who is motivated enough to see what sort of tension is required?

I have a 1000+ jumps using it for slider up or slider off.The only time I do not use it is for short slider up delays,for quicker openings.

precision calibrated right arm

Rigs weigh about 20 pounds, give or take based
on the size of the canopy and type of container.

You can gently pick up a velcro rig by the bridle.
You should not be able to do the same with pins.

My right hand tells me the single wrapped band
on my primary stow takes even less force to pop.

Of course not motivated enough to leave the comfy
computer chair and dig around for the spring scale


freakboy066 - uses it for slider up or slider off

Same here.

FYI - few guys have seen your stash bag & liked it.

My take is that I use it now doubled always. It slows down the opening to an acceptable level of pain most of the time. I will agree that ultralow applications of the "no primary stow" method is sound, but seriously deficient for any other deployment methods. But that´s just me.
Take care,
space

I was thinking about this topic the other day
when I was showing someone how to pack;
sure wish Greeny would share his thoughts.

 

Sorry to dredge up an old thread like this when there's already a similar one going, but I'm really curious about your last post Greeny. When you're placing the bight of line in the primary stow pocket but not using the rubber band to hold it, what do you do with the rubber band, do you remove it? It would seem to me that if it is not removed there is a chance it could interfere with the release of that bight from under the tail pocket, no? As in it could work its way into the middle of the loop and cause a hangup? Just curious...

Well I don't know much and have very little experience...but I have heard this "One for show, two to go". This did not seem to have anything to do with the use of a slider or not...I have used a double wrapped stow on all of my 20 jumps...hahaha! So like I say just what I heard, not so much what I know.

Oh yeah...the quote came from a very experienced jumper.

Edited to add: All of the twenty jumps have been slider off with delays ranging from 0 to 3 seconds.

There is a diversity of opinions on this topic.

I know very experienced jumpers (gear manufacturers, as well) who believe in no locking stow, others at the same level who believe in wrapping the locking stow as tight as possible, and everything in between.

The purpose of the locking stow is to stage the parachute inflation. It keeps the bottom of the canopy bundled tightly together as it travels to line stretch.

Leaving aside the folks who don't use it at all, there are two lines of reasoning here:

1) You want it to be as tight as reasonably possible to make it hold better.

2) You want it a bit looser to make sure it doesn't break prematurely (in the pack tray, while hiking out, or whatever) and cause you to lose any benefits of having it in the first place.


When I watch video of canopies opening (and believe me, I watch a stupid amount of that sort of video teaching), I can tell the difference between a canopy that is unconstrained (i.e. no locking stow) and one that is constrained (with locking stow). But I cannot tell the difference between a canopy with a tight or loose locking stow.

As a result, I tend toward #2, above, and wrap the rubber band loose, so that it is not unduly strained (and hence possible premature breakage).

Other than the fairly obvious benefit of staging the deployment (especially on low freefalls) there is also an opinion that has been mentioned regarding snatch-force and clean, rapid deployment of the canopy itself. Basically, by keeping the canopy together until line stretch (when all of the jumpers weight hits) you effectively encourage a faster deployment of the canopy because of the increased snatch-force involved. I heard this theory once, and did some tests using TARDs to see if I would get noticeably different results. Certainly not conclusive at all, but having that primary stow nice and snug with two wraps seemed to encourage a higher opening than a single wrap. And using the primary stow definitely gave me higher and cleaner openings than using no stow at all. On a side note, anyone who is worried about the force of one or two wraps of a rubber band significantly slowing the openings, is not thinking about the physics involved in deploying a parachute in freefall. Even at low air-speeds, if you are moving fast enough for a p/c to lift a moving canopy out of your pack tray, the force of a single rubberband on a bite of lines is very minimal.

Amen to that!
I always doublewrap(as low as 72 m.), with the length being the length of the entire tail pocket. And it says so in Atairs manual by the way

+1 always one rap .... on every jump s/d s/up