Basejumper.com - archive

Since I'm apparently in a post making/long discussion mood. Let's try another one that'll light some fires...



Question 1:
Is it ever OK to intentional burn an object, and under what circumstances?


Scenario: (consider and comment)
-----anything in italics is edited and added-----
- You were on a team of 3 that opened the object.
- You have more jumps then anyone off the object then anyone in the area
- Other jumpers have started to get sloppy on approaches (ie. parking directly under the object instead of a mile away & hiking. sunrise & sunset load when night loads are the norm. door to object left unlocked, and hatches left open. large loads 5-6+ with 3 being the norm. the object became common knowledge to the point a FJC student asked me to take him there when his course was over prior to ever base jumping! etc...)
- You moved to a city 3 hours away a month prior

The plan was to extend the recklessness, not necessarily burn the object. The thought was to gather several jumpers over a holiday weekend and boogie the object all night. beer & a tarp. We planned to meet at 7pm to organize the effort, then travel out that direction at sunset. This was misconstrued to another local jumper as a dayblaze. There was a communication break down, that led to a couple angry locals. A text went out claiming that the police would be called, and all jumpers on the load would be met and arrested. A voicemail was left for me by a local sheriff (who is a friend of most jumpers in the area). Everyone backed off the load, and only three of us ended up jumping that night.

Question #2:
Is it ever OK to call the police on another load of jumpers because you disagree with what they're doing?

Funny End Story:
A month later some jumpers did a sunrise load, and encountered a worker at the site. Who said he saw them jump and they've known about the jumping for a while. The worker said he was going to see what the boss thought about it, as the jumpers drove off. and thus the object is burned anyway. (wouldn't the boogie have been 20 times more fun? caught or not!)

wait wait wait...a local base jumper was going to call the police for you guys base jumping the antenna?

...am i in the fucking twilight zone here?

answer the other questions! my ethically lacking mind wants to know!

- Objects dont belong to anyone, they are merely "supervised" by volunteering locals
- Even if its an object no one else wants to jump it still brings unnecessary attention to the sport and its obviously easier to do what we do when no one is paying attention.
- Calling the cops and reporting someone who is doing the same thing you are doing not only makes you a pussy it makes you a narc. (Also see previous two points above.)

I think the only time that calling authorities is ok is when that's the only way to prevent someone from getting severely injured/killed. Calling authorities to prevent object burn sounds oxymoronic.

then of course if I lived in a "BASE happening" place, and had some sweet-ish semi-local objects, I would shut the fuck up about them, and keep them to the locals, while letting visitors jump my local legal crown jewel.

Karnowski, did you break something ? It seems like you are sitting posting uncharacteristically too much. Is there a bridge around Kansas in need of spot-painting ?

in the lawsuit crazy US, "plausible deniability" is a beautiful thing. it permits those in charge to turn a blind eye to suspected activities, especially if they think said activity is cool.

blaze the same object, and it can remove any discretion, forcing the hand of the people responsible for the object.

parents, teachers, police, etc. all know a lot of stuff that goes on, but choose NOT to take action. selling marijuana laced brownies at the school bake sale tends not to get ignored.

seconded

Objects don't belong to anyone

I disagree, sometimes they can based on getting
permission from an owner, working there, etc.

Also, think about gangs who defend their turf,
sure they do not have a deed but just the same
usually the fight is not worth the bounty.

There are so many jumpable objects and so few
of us who bandit jump that each of us could easily
have our own object... then the cool people could
naturally share and the dicks would roll solo.



I once heard: Snitches get Stitches

However, in this particular case the
cop called was friends with the BASE
jumpers who wanted to prevent the
event, so it's kind-of-sorta different.

don't do it. kill the people being reckless with it. that is a good object.

No one "called the cops". The 'accused' in your case called a mutual acquaintance of both of yours--who happens to be law enforcement--to try and talk some sense into you. If you're going to take it out of context, at least provide all the details.

If you keep 'your' object close to your chest...someone else stumbles upon it and jumps its as they please...tough titty...if you dont actually own it, the best you can hope for is that the other party agrees with your guidelines for jumping it....but that's it.

If you share an object with somebody who takes it for ride against your recommended guidelines...then you have a much more ethically sound basis to make some noise about it......as well as a ringing alarm bell to cross that person off your list for sharing future objects.

Either way...unless you own it...best you can do is look for some level of cooperation.....thats it.

Cooperation is much more likely to be had, when its not 'demanded'.....

Under the heading of "if you don't have something not-nice to say about Andrew, don't say it", either contribute to the bashing of Karnowski or leave the conversation. That was worthless.

Rauk, I wish I still had the bulk text message that was sent out to show you... but I know plenty of people saw it and can confirm. The threat to call the police was there.

But, you are correct the sheriff that called and left the voicemail was a friend of the jumper who made the threat. and those are separate incidences.

I'm making an attempt to put out all the details to find out if I'm truly lacking the ethics department.

but in all seriousness... I could care less about the cop issue... let's talk about intentional reckless behavior as a counter to recklessness. Bidding an object farewell in style!

a burned an object that could really only be jumped once. so is that burning it?

hmm... good question.

If a tree falls in the woods, does anybody hear it?

Was anybody pissed at you for it? Is burning actually the art of being seen/caught, or is it just annoying other people?

No but that...and that mentality, is worthless.....
but <sigh>
'carry on'




It is burning it , but that's acceptable.

i did it in the middle of the day off a 600 foot building in a downtown area. there were no other active jumpers within about 150 miles of where i was jumping. unfortunately i didn't have the foresight to realize i should have been a lot more low key. in hindsight, i could have jumped that building several more times. such as life... as jumpers, we all have to make some monumental mistake, learn from it, try to teach other jumpers not to do it, and eventually have those other jumpers eventually make a similar monumental mistake.

So if it's acceptable to burn something that can only be jumped once. what if it can only be jumped say 10 times, as in this case where there's a giant downward spiral of reckless behavior?

This contradicts what you said in the first post...

Nope....in my eyes if its an object whose risk/profile/security suggests it can be done.....but only likely once before its guarded against/shut down....then a jump on it that burns it is acceptable.

If its something that IS repeatable with pretty reasonable levels of care, but gets burned because someone takes a shortcut or is lazy....then no...not acceptable in my eyes.

I think the sarcasm didn't translate well from english to ye ole english. Just taking the piss. Cockney! Football! Bangers and Mash! Fish and Chips!

Just answering a question you posted up....

(hint...stick some suitably shaped smilies next to the bits in your posts intended to be sarcastic or witty ..works a treat ....and helps translate your material into something us dumb olde English folk can understand )

This is where the discussion is interesting to me. I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, but what if it's not "someone" but a "group of people". Your realm of control is limited

Absolutely.
But.
Did you feed this group info on the object , and how you think it should be jumped?
If so...you have a valid point of dispute,

If you didnt....if they are just choosing to do what they do....on something you jump as well....if you cant cooperate....what right do you really have to tell them how they should/should not go about their business on an object neither of you owns.

Its all about cooperation and not confrontation my man...

If no cooperation is forthcoming.....learn the lesson of who not to trust and put a big deposit in your karma bank by just moving on to the next object...knowing who not to trust in the future
Objects open and close all the time...around the world...don't feel too bad if you lose one....but make sure you dont make the same mistake twice ;)

 

yeah i know, but i didn't realize until somewhat after the jump that i could probably continue to jump it. they ended up firing the security firm and replaced them with guards that were hard to trick. they replaced the locks on the roof with locks that required card readers. they put cameras everywhere in the stairwell. the real bummer was that security tightened on about 7 different buildings in the downtown due to the word getting out among the guard corporations.

i should have been less blatant. the landing area is a big grass field with no power lines. a grass field about 200 feet by 1000 feet next to a road ready for getaway pickup. i mean god, how easy could it get?

I hear pissing on things is a great way to keep others away.

So, are you trying to make the point that even if I thought something (in your case, it was only jumpable once. in my case, it was going to be burned soon) that the thinking could be incorrect, and we should hold ourselves to higher standards?

or did that just fall out accidentally?

wait.... so the object in question is the bad ass spinny deal that I have 4 off of now? 3 with you, andrew? what cunt got it closed down? I liked that thing.

so the object in question is the bad ass spinny deal

10-4

FYI - the meet time was 7 PM

I know cause I wanted to go but
backed off the load after I heard
that Tree and Abbie were pist off.

i am confused.

I almost abbreviated "transmission received" to "tranny received"

but that would only work If I lived in Vegas.

anyways, really? it got burned. shit.

INTENTIONALLY burned?


who did it? why? this thread makes no sense. If it WAS andrew, there is already a hit out on him by 3 people I know, I'll just add to the DoA bounty.

That happens a lot around me. I think I also confused myself

yeap, burned. not intentional, but due to the reckless behavior I complained about (sunrise load + parking under the object)

isn't burning, well burning?

you can claim it's a preemptive burn all you want. you will still be the one who burned it.

just because you believe other jumper(s) will burn an object does not mean they will. what if a traveling jumper wants to burn an object and claim they "own" it. you get pissed and burn it first, then realize the weather would have prohibited the traveling jumper from even attempting the jump.

DOH!

I'd call that a fail.

I can see that.

but the irony then pops up as... the locals foiled my plans, and a month later it got burned, the exact opposite of your scenario ;-P


**edit to add: I am coming around to seeing that I did wrong, if it's any condolence

I mean...really? Isnt that a little much?

I'm confused...who owns the object?

Go Karnowski! You are waaaaay more hip than Techno Viking, and that's from the heart.

this post makes me happy that i live in europe