Basejumper.com - archive

reconsidered this complaint... check further down the thread for new posed questions....

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2913930#2913930

Why are you so sure that the cause of this situation is the teacher (or class) and not the student?

I don't think any FJC is good enough to stop students from making bad decisions.

It's the jumper, not the course. FJCs are not the reason people like that exist.

I have no doubt that Jimmy and Marta stressed to him that he is NOT yet a BASE jumper, they probably told him to go find a mentor. too bad all he found was you.

Have you brought up your concerns with them? This could be done a little more behind the scenes. I have had concerns about newbies when I meet them and if an issue comes up I give the fjc instructor a friendly talk about whatever was the issue.

-still like ya tho buddy

Nic

now that was funny:o)
all a FJC can really teach you is to pack and exit some what stable.......its up to you to crawl befor you run......all a mentor can do is remind you dirt fuckin hurts!

Let's hope he doesn't try to take 20 jumpers to any local illegal objects in the middle of the day, cause that would piss me off...

I only know one student who came out of the Apex FJC. He's a really good jumper and a great guy. Even though it's just one case, Apex did a good job with him and they were happy to hear my feedback on his progression.

I took the Apex FJC...and of course at that point I was completely ignorant. There was a B local to me that I always wanted to do, way before I got into BASE. When I took the FJC I was dumb enough to mention how I wanted to do it. Jimmy and Marta spent the rest of the weekend explaining to me how dumb of an idea it was. I ended up not doing it until waayyy farther down the road. I concur with what everyone else said...its the jumper, not the course

We tell our students that after the course they are in no way ready to jump cliffs or buildings. Some, don't get it. PM the jumper's name to me and I'll contact them, try to talk some sense into them. Didn't work for you, but it might work for them!
Jimmy

Hmm... reconsidering the complaint, I guess I've just never had a chance to meet any of your good students.





That's because everyone was telling me I wasn't ready for a bridge

More questions that are bouncing in my head now:


1) should FJC students have mentors arranged for their return to society?

2) what are good ways to convince somebody you don't think they're ready for a certain jump when they're stubborn? (we've already heard the 'ironic coming from you' joke... shut your mouths!)

3) can stubborn students be flagged by FJCs and locals notified?

4) should mentors be notified before someone is allowed to do an FJC?

5) are we creating a elitist club by the above behaviors? should we really try and control who jumps?

*more to follow as i brain storm...

Fair enough. Sorry about the bite, just couldn't resist!

We are of the opinion that after any course at the bridge, students are bridge jumpers, not BASE jumpers, and we emphasize this throughout the course, be it six jumps or 20 they are just bridge jumpers. It takes a lot more experience for anyone to become a BASE Jumper and the Perrine is a great start.
Following this thought is the reason we offer lifetime training for free after our course. We encourage our students to come join us again and again to continue their education. We are out there at least twice a month, so it's not hard to hook up with us there. If anyone has any questions whatsoever, please contact us directly at moab@apexbase.com
Thanks!
Jimmy

No worries on the bite Jimmy, I've grown tough skin and as much as I didn't want the question posed to come out as an insult it was hard to word in such a manor.





Is offering really enough? I realize the scope of what you can and can't do for a person is fairly limited within 3 days. and the affordability of multiple trips to the bridge for student also comes into questions.






Trees comment brings up another question in my mind too. We all obviously have varying levels of ethics and ideals. Who is right? to what standard do we judge newer jumpers? should we teach the highest level of ethics and let them degrade from there? should we let them loose and learn by failures and interactions?

I am one of Jimmy's students (Vertigo), we've met Andrew (and I have never hit a bridge )... Also know a NUMBER of other fine Vertigo/Apex started jumpers (who never hit bridges, either). What FJC did you take?

BASE should be of the least (specially from other jumpers) control and most freedom... People should be able to chose on their own free will on what to do and what not to do and face the consequences of their actions..

Don't make this sport into skydiving, where there are shit loads of rules and regulations, BASE should be about absolute freedom.

Hey, Sangi, which FJC did you take? While we're asking.

At what cost? To be honest with you, I would love to jump the building that was mentioned in the first post. Dude has a key to the door!

What if he hurts himself, do I walk away and say "told you you weren't ready for that jump" do I let him figure it out himself? I can obviously choose to not jump with him, or ignore his existence completely but what's the point in that?

To be honest, I wish someone would've tackled me and taken my parachute away from me before I hit the bridge. Maybe someone told me not to jump, I don't remember, I was stubborn. (it's possible I still am)

I guess that's part of it... people don't run around screaming "hey I took a apex FJC, and I rock!"

I took Tom's bridge day FJC, and didn't listen to a damn word he had to say. Which is a good comment to make in the context of "students not courses"

many jumpers need to ignore the advice of authority figures (such as "No Trespassing") signs to jump. it is a habit that spills over onto other aspects.

one theory of learning also includes the concept of Readiness.

sound familiar?

until we realize we have a need for information, we tend to ignore it. so many basic BASE concepts are irrelevant to jumping that bridge. the Potato Bridge increases the short term safety, and makes jumping feel easy. it also permits some students to ignore information key to survival at other objects.

I bet the APEX FJC course teaches:
- putting in the effort to jump from the center of the bridge.
- NOT to fly into someone else's city and dayblaze a building just so you can be on a video.
yet I bet some jumpers didn't feel they needed those bits of information.


actually, Jimmy's concept of lifelong learning appears like a great way to re-enforce lessons when a jumper feels Ready.

I'll say it cause no else has yet.................


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Pipe down and go sit in your corner with the "hat" on.

why?
really.


have you ever helped a friend deal with a nasty injury? one that you could have prevented? do you wish to console grieving families with the words, "it was stupid, no one else would ever think of doing that. but we all remained quiet and let the deceased do his thing?"

doesn't that seem cold to you?

it seems very odd that you sit in the UK (from a Baltic state) and complain about the negative impact of the US foreign policy, which I assume you find irresponsible. fair enough. I've heard those arguments and don't wish to re-hash them here.

yet you seem quite happy to let irresponsible jumpers negatively impact everyone else.

why the apparent inconsistency?

(I assume it is because you find BASE jumping "inspiring." you sit back all comfy and cozy, completely unaware and completely indifferent of the cost that others pay.)

That's all great in theory but different when you have an emotional interest. When was the last time you came to the realization that it was just a matter of time before your close friend's behavior gets him killed?

with no disrespect all all... just to clear the air, the jumper in question is me ,theres no need to point fingers the blame goes to me and me only! sure i got my new gear the otherday and wanted to jump a building or something but didnt we talked about this andrew,i would never bring 20 peolpe to a exit point or get or someone else hurt or try to jump any other object with only 6 jumps i just told u i was not scared to jump ! and u took it the wrong way, so relax andrew i have talked with jimmy today about going back to twin for a more jumps to incress my skill level before even jumping bridgeday this year.you dont even know me we met for 5 mins, so that being said,i am sure we can work out any kind of problems u may have u got my #.so stop complaining BEARS can smell the complaining! we all hate BEARS!

Andrew, looks like you have an excited
new jumper who is open to some input.

Maybe it is time for you practice some
patience and play the mentor role.

Good luck to both of you guys!!


And Menstrual cycles

unless it's an ELF-targeted AM tower, objects are not going anywhere, so there's no rush.

damn, how'd you know I was PMS-ing?

You're wrong. Seriously.

How many BASE jumps did it take you to come to this conclusion on what BASE jumping should be about Sangi?
Shall we put this little nugget into the same category as BASE jumping is a cheaper hobby than skydiving because you dont have to pay for the ticket...?
...Thats typical idealist bullshit , from a non jumper.

Whilst there is more freedom in what you do, there is a responsibility to the community at large about 'how' you go about exercising your personal freedom.

Please stop quoting about how things ( that you have no experience of ) ...'should be'

And apologies to the rest of the world for Sangi's dribble...its certainly not representative of the calibre of the UK's BASE jumpers to be....but then again, he's just a visitor here, not a homegrown

IRT “Don't make this sport into skydiving, where there are shit loads of rules and regulations, BASE should be about absolute freedom.”

I feel that the concept that BASE should be entirely about absolute freedom and lack of "control" by other jumpers is flawed. While it is true that there is no formal regulation or governing body in this sport (the nature of the activity and its participants would not allow, nor benefit from this), my perception is that there is some degree of necessary, internal "regulation" that takes place within the social interactions of the community that aims to ensure the viability of the sport for current and future participants. Participating in BASE, more often than not, places one outside of the social norms and acceptance of the general public. It seems that some level of influence or "control" exerted by the community on individual jumpers is beneficial and necessary to keeping BASE jumping in the shadows of mainstream society, when warranted, and showing it in the best possible light when visible to the public. This would include discouraging dayblazing and burning objects, and trying to keep people from getting onto objects that are above their level of readiness, since it is apparent that some individuals cannot (or choose not to) realistically assess their own ability or exercise self control. This intervention may come across as "authority" or "control", but should probably be viewed as looking out for the best interests of the community. One doesn't jump in a vacuum. There are, as others have noted, contextual reactions to one's actions that may effect other jumpers, crews, and the BASE community as a whole.

I’ve just come back from the Apex FJC over the weekend (where they stressed the relatively forgiving nature of the bridge, to take it slow, use good judgement and find a mentor), and with only 7 jumps, am already trying to figure out how to tell a friend that I think he may need to slow down and re-assess things. It’s easier because I know him and hopefully won’t come across as a hypocrite trying to exercise “control.”


IRT “We all obviously have varying levels of ethics and ideals. Who is right? to what standard do we judge newer jumpers? should we teach the highest level of ethics and let them degrade from there? should we let them loose and learn by failures and interactions?”

It seems to me that it would be better to try to instill a high level of ethics congruent with the positive morays and norms of the BASE community to be proactive about protecting the sport, rather than letting people crash and burn (figuratively and literally) from easily avoidable mistakes and then trying to control the damage and pick up the pieces.

IRT “many jumpers need to ignore the advice of authority figures (such as "No Trespassing") signs to jump. it is a habit that spills over onto other aspects.”

Disregarding authority, as wwarped noted, can be a necessary act to gain access to objects, and I can see how this mentality could easily spread to other interactions in the community. The example of the Italian Mafia earlier in the last century comes to mind. They clearly operated outside of the law and social norms, but they had a code of ethics that dictated the interactions within their community/organization and provided a way to maintain order and generally insulate their dealings from unwanted attention. I think certain ideas from this model could provide an example for both sides of the experience spectrum: fledglings would benefit from joining the community of experienced jumpers and showing some respect (talking to locals, listening to and learning from those with knowledge/experience/concerns, not “shitting where you (or others) walk”, etc.); and those with experience and concerns could help mitigate indiscretions by making new jumpers feel a part of a crew (maybe people would be more likely to listen/learn if they feel a part of a group). Maybe I’m just too idealistic. I’m rambling at this point.

-Sol

i just talked with jimmy and he asked me if i would like to come up to twin and jump again with them before bridgeday so i booked a flight up there for oct 1st thru the 4th and yes i may only get a few jumps in but thats better then useing that magic key i got!!!! right andrew.....lol

it sounds like Jimmy & Marta got through to you.

+1

+5 to joey, not you wwwwwarpped

What I meant was that exercising that freedom in a sane and respectable way, where you wouldn't undermine other peoples rights and freedoms.. Yes ethics should be followed, that's what keeps the relative order in place, but what I wanted to say, don't make this sport into a rulebook where you have to follow every bit of the guideline without any sort of improvisation once in a while..

And I didn't say I represent the UK's BASE community (or any other community for that matter), yes I'm a visitor here and you guys are great hosts. I'm not even jumping yet (I want to enjoy skydiving a bit more and gather more experience, one of the parts that I don't feel confident at all is rigging and that lack of skill could kill me in BASE), but in time hopefully it will come..

Peace

What you 'meant' isn't what you originally wrote.......changing it to 'what you meant after reading other <real> jumpers replies, just highlights your gaping lack of knowledge about real life jumping.

So, as I have already said....please stop trying to tell us your considered opinion on how things 'should' be, having absolutely zero experience of BASE jumping ....

I still love you Sangi....

In my world you can voice any opinion you want to!!

Regardless of my personal feelings on its authenticity.
___________________+__________________________
Love the school thing going on here at the momment

+ Grubber and I as well.

Settle down folks.