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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diNuEAGngEU

I would like to have this in Incident forum, but will put it here so more can see it.

Landing in water with wingsuit is lethal, and the only thing you should think of, is to release your canopy, float and breath. You can not swim with wingsuit very far, and especially not in cold water. This will be a problem with the no 3 rings. We had quite few happenings at this site, and we are waiting for the first person to drown. It is so simple. Learn from this video, and do not land in water with wing suit. Maybe Robert have to put some floating elements in the suit?

This site is not regulated, and no boat is present.

He landed very close to shore. I've had 1 time where I swam twice that distance with wingsuit and canopy and would not recommend it to anyone as it gets exhausting pretty quick. Prevention is key.

As I say float, and breath, that is the two most important things first. Then swim, but for those onshore have to understand this is a very critical situation, and prepare for saving a person. Some who land in cold water is exhausted after 30 sec.

There have also been quite many reports about line over this year.

What do you do if you do not have 3 rings on your rig and land in water? Pick your bridle and tow your canopy? Knife? Float and wait for help? Bring a super floaty thing with you? a little ballon with a small gas patron?

We had one who had line over straight above the river. No 3 rings. The line over cleared it selves and he landed in the trees. If he landed in the river, he would have been done, and only pure luck could have saved him.

Floating,inflatable arm and leg wings, but do not suck water is maybe the future ;-) Hey Robbie is that possible? Could keep the shape of the wings, and possible less drag to?

I landed close to a fast river one time with a wingsuit and my canopy dragged me into it. I figured I could pull it out of the water. Stupid me. No way you can manage that, water is so strong. I ended up under the surface (about 1 meter deep only) and got pulled over the boulders. I managed to release pretty quick. I am sure I would not have survived without 3-ring. Nothing more to add.

Ronald

sorry for the qustion, but didn´t we already have a couple of fatalities by drowning (in a river)? I think we SHOULD HAVE LEARNT from that...

Simple solution: Pull high and land safe on the ground. are there any reasons for not having a cut away?

Word

3 rings have and can fail, but will not when maintained and looked after. BUT they add complexity and weight. I know of several cases where a 3 ring has been the cause of an incident in BASE jumping and ground launching.


I do not jump with a cutaway system on 95% of my jumps. I also don't snivel into trees and rivers. if your going to let your adrenalin get the best of you and burn it into water and forests, use a cutaway.

a 'wings fall off' button was never a good idea without a big sky below you and another flying machine packed on your back. neither are ever there on a BASE jump. this is just my opinion. I do not overly distrust the 3-ring system, i use it on more devices than most people can imagine, I just like the lower weight, and simplicity of sewn in risers for a BASE rig.

(I use a cutaway where heavy moving water is a viable 'out' or a probable malfunction crash area) I do not use a cutaway at, say, an A,B,Dry E, or easy S, I do at the gofast games)

any reasons for not having a cut away?

Already discussed at length*.
90% or more agree with you.
Some prefer integrated risers.

BASE - the sport with no rules
only laws: gravity & don't die.

* please PM me if you want the
list of pros and cons for each

Just like Calvin said:

Equipment should be configured to coincide with the specifics of each individual jump and the varying hazards that you can/will encounter on that specific jump.

Rigging skills should be second nature by the time you are ready for BASE. Just as important as canopy skills and good judgment in my opinion.


*refer to thread on Jarrett Martin

Especially on a recurrency jump, wouldn't you think?

Is it still hard to swim even if you unzip your WS arm and leg wings?

I had to swim once about 80ft in still water in wingsuit and almost drowned. I don't remember right now, but I think wings were unzipped. Despite this, the first thing that happened on landing was that the trapped air in leg wing tipped me head low and it was very hard to keep my head above water. While I was struggling to do that, lines got intangled first with legwing then with my body. I cutaway and tried to get rid of the canopy to no avail.

Swimming, even with unzipped arms and legs, is surprisingly hard in wingsuit: armwings and legwing fill with water, get very heavy and constantly get in the way of your arms and legs.

As I was very slowly approaching shore of a chilly lake where I couldn't stand as yet, the lines started catching on underwater logs.

80ft took at least 3 minutes.

Lessons I learned: when water is the only LZ, fly parallel to the shore, close to it, do not count on your accuracy when approaching to shore head-on with no options of overshooting (big trees) - with dark water in low light conditions it's very hard to judge your altitude above water; cutaway as your feet touch water, do not even think about "cutting away later if needed"; have a CO2 flotation device; stay calm, panic is your worst enemy.

Yuri

water training?
throw people into a swimming pool with wingsuits on?

Back in 2001 when wingsuits were less efficient and skills were crap, Team Bautasten used small inflatable life vests under the wingsuits when we jumped Smellveggen. It felt like a small investment for much added safety. The life vests were very flat and didn't put any noticeable bulk under the suit and would have been fairly easy to use in case of emergency.

Many bigwalls in Norway are close to rivers, fjords or lakes. Personally, if I took up wingsuit flying again, I would seriously consider jumping with a life vest. Especially if I jumped with integrated risers.

/Michael
Team Bautasten of Sweden

First of all it have to be an drowning first with wingsuit or track pants, before anyone will start considering using life west. We had one participant this year showing me he did have a life west under his suit. He had already been down under last year, and saved be 3 other jumpers.

"Learning by doing, is still the most original concept for base jumpers, even we have a 30 year long history behind us."

This is what you need under your suit. Just a lunge with a small gas patron, or a valve you blow air in to. I had an normal jacket with lunges like this 25 years ago when I had boat. Should still be simular on the marked.

Im in contact with a producer of life jackets. Now it is your chance to get a chest like a bird. Anyone of you do industry design, or do have some clue about design? Im going to make them produce a test, to put undernite the wingsuits? The only Problem is the chest strap maybe?
It can be inflatable with a valve sticking out ot the chest, reachable for the jumper to blow some air in to it, or foam, with a 3 liter +- volum to save a body in water.

It would be nice to produce something we could demo next year at WBR 2010.

I don't wingsuit, as I am not a progressive or ground breaker, but wouldn't a standard hook knife cut the wingsuit to a point where one could swim effectively. screw it...it's only money and you only die once.

For those who is used to water, and swim in cold water it is not a big issue. I am happy you answer, for half of the safety part of it, is keeping the focus on the problem.

Two things to remember:
Breath and fill your lounges with air, you will float!
Keep floating, and stay calm, at once you start stressing you do not breath enough to keep the volume up to float.

Start cutting your suit, is using your time on something you have not trained for. Cutting your soft links is something you should easy do onshore, but not that easy in the water at same time trying to be floating. Sometimes you will experience waves as well. Just small waves will increase the problem a lot.

What have been done to skydiving when jumping close to water? No special design yet? What do they use in the army?

What is required when skydiving close to water?

The jumper is required to wear flotation device
AND having completed water training. I have
done tandems at a DZ surrounded by water
and my passengers wore flotation devices.


FLOTATION EQUIPMENT
Paragear
Sport Jumper or Tandem Passenger


What do they use in the army?

Tactical Flotation


The "Water Training" I had for my C license was hardcore.
We were instructed to wear a full sweat suit with sneakers.
Thrown into a pool and required to tread water for 5 minutes.
Required to jump into the pool wearing a harness and then
they threw a very big, old canopy over your head, you had
to push it up, grab a breath, and then follow a seam to get
out from under it. I think this training is a necessity to help
prevent jumpers from freaking out when they hit water.



Same here

I have done water trainin for skydiving, but yet there is no good solutions for a life west design, except those skydivers borrow from alrlines, right?

None of the waterlandings I have seen so far, have cut away their canopy when feet touch water, and also when more of the wingsuit rigs do not have that option anymore, they do need to think about a procedure for themselves they are confident with. Can all of the wingsuiters swim in the first place? Again cold water, drained for adrenaline you do not have much power left if you are not a good swimmer.

Can all of the wingsuiters swim in the first place?

I think anyone who skydives and BASE jumps
but does not know how to swim needs to get
their ass to a pool and learn immediately!!

Inability to cutaway canopy / integrated risers

Good point, hopefully those (like myself) who
jump integrated risers remember this and are
planned for the possibility of having to climb
out of their harness. I have had to once.

BUMP

Season for ordering equipment. Think about where you are going to be jumping with your equipment, and the risk for water landings. Or landing in a tree, stuck low enough for the bears to take a piece of you ;-)

No serious landing in water, and no three rings is lethal, and we have seen it many times the last years, where there is no boat present.

Happy new year