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A Scary Moment

After reading the discussion in the "Incident" forum
I figured I would go ahead and post about my last
BASE jump (#91) so people can speculate as to
what happened and serve as a cautionary tale.

Object: red & white freestander
Height: 320 feet
Exit: 300 feet
Container: Gargoyle
Pilot Chute: 46 non-vented

This jump was a low-time 2 way with the first
jumper having approximately 25ish BASE jumps.
We arrived separately about 30 minutes before
sunset, climbed quickly, and were ready to go
about dusk.

Instead of exiting from the top we decided due
to a strong tail wind to exit from the red level
just below the top that has 4 square areas on
the corners to put the wind straight at our backs.

Jumper #1 went first, hand held, go & throw.

Jumper #2 was in position, hand held, with the
bridle routed normally, out of the bottom and
a small bite of bridle tucked under the right
riser cover.

Due to more than expected traffic, strong tail
wind, and wanting to minimize exposure I
had the idea to take a 1 second delay.

Good, belly to earth exit (I've been practicing)
and after 1 long second a good pitch. Then the
time warp took a beat longer than I'm used to...

I looked up and it appeared that the PC was at
bridle stretch with the bite on my right shoulder
still in place - and of course the usual thought:
"fuck, I'm going in" ran through my mind.

Just then the PC did its thing, pins pop, canopy
comes out on heading but my body had turned
a pinch, perhaps from looking up + wind, such
that I had a touch of line twist.

Quickly whipped my body to face away from
the object, like my canopy was rightly doing.
Landed down wind in deep sugar sand on
purpose because I was real low and wanted
to get away quick.

Jumper #1 said it was lowest he had ever
seen anyone ever open. Of course it was
the lowest I had ever opened, my guess
would be between 100 and 150 feet.

I thought the problem was tucking the bridle
but a very experienced jumper suggested it
was probably a PC hesitation, while another
very experienced jumper think it is either
a fluke or due to me being a ginger jumper.

Flame away Unsure
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
not the bridle tuck but either or both a pc hesitation or having your pins a little too tight. parachute opening altitudes can vary substantially for no easily discernible reason. do you have any hook velcro on you bridle that might have gotten caught on the mesh of the pilot chute?
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Re: [460] A Scary Moment
Pin tension minimal.

No velcro on the bridle.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
Now just imagine if that happened at your other site with all the trees.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
Newer jumper here....but 30 of my 41 jumps are freefalls from 270. I would say it was a PC hesitation from only taking a 1 with a strong tailwind. I always remind myself to take it slightly deeper when there is a decent wind. A slightly longer delay in that wind situation *might* have negated the issue. However as 460 pointed it could have been a number of other things too.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
"fuck, I'm going in" ran through my mind.

that thought goes through my head everytime I jump from 300' Wink
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Re: [AdamLanes] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
Now just imagine if that happened at your other site with all the trees.

excellent point.
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Re: [cloudtramp] A Scary Moment
cloudtramp wrote:
In reply to:
"fuck, I'm going in" ran through my mind.

that thought goes through my head everytime I jump from 300' Wink

Me too actually. I've come to just accept the fact that low jumps are going to scare the crap outta me no matter what.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
it appeared that the PC was at
bridle stretch with the bite on my right shoulder
still in place

I'm not that experienced myself, but wouldn't this seem to suggest the tuck jamming more than a hesi?

Depending on which side you looked up, I would guess that this could have bunched up that side of the rig and loosed the flap enough to release the bridle.

Out of curiosity, do you know how far up your back/shoulder you made the tuck or how far under the flap you put it?
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
if it was a tuck jam, I imagine you would feel a tug on the shoulder strap, even at only 1 sec.
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Re: [runnit] A Scary Moment
The tuck was on the right, about top of the shoulder,
placed between the riser cover's tuck tab, and the
rig's slot for it, and was about 1/2 an inch long.

An experienced guy suggested routing the bridle
out of the top for handheld jumps so I am going
to try that next time I pack her up.

FYI - the PC has more than enough pull force to
yang a tuck and then some... when fully inflated.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
Yeah, a 46" would have a fair bit of drag. I was having a bit of a guess and keen to see what more experienced jumpers reckoned.

I like the idea of routing the bridle upwards for H/H. A lot less excess to control.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
I jump off a 300 footer and always open about 100-150. I dont know that its too low, just pretty close. But in Idaho you dont have the opportunity to jump much high stuff, so Im pretty used to opening and having a 3-6 second canopy ride, its normal for me. Mayby its normal for you and you just think its not because the other jumper had not seen a low jump like so before. Did you Feel really low or are you taking what he said into consideration. Good Luck
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Re: [mfob] A Scary Moment
come back to Idaho.... Washington sucks!
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Re: [mfob] A Scary Moment
mfob wrote:
I jump off a 300 footer and always open about 100-150. I dont know that its too low, just pretty close. But in Idaho you dont have the opportunity to jump much high stuff, so Im pretty used to opening and having a 3-6 second canopy ride, its normal for me. Mayby its normal for you and you just think its not because the other jumper had not seen a low jump like so before. Did you Feel really low or are you taking what he said into consideration. Good Luck

Same here; everything I jump is pretty much "low" and I get the "fuck I'm going in" thing all the time.

Why would you climb down and exit lower? Did the exit point/winds dictate?
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Re: [SpeedPhreak] A Scary Moment
Hell yall, the "oh fuck, I'm goin in..." feeling is the only reason I jump! Ha! I thought that was THE SHIT. you think you are and then you don't.......endorphins.....brain is happy for a day or twoSly
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
placed between the riser cover's tuck tab, and the
rig's slot for it,

youre not saying you routed your bridle though your riser cover?

because that seems silly.

bridle out the top, or sew a halfinch by halfinch hooks to your shoulder and the same size loops to your bridle.

easy peasy.
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Re: [base386] A Scary Moment
base386 wrote:
Hell yall, the "oh fuck, I'm goin in..." feeling is the only reason I jump! Ha! I thought that was THE SHIT. you think you are and then you don't.......endorphins.....brain is happy for a day or two Sly

I have a love/hate relationship with that feeling. Tongue
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:
After reading the discussion in the "Incident" forum
I figured I would go ahead and post about my last
BASE jump (#91) so people can speculate as to
what happened and serve as a cautionary tale.

Big Respect Man!Smile

It seems to me that the strong wind at small falling speeds (delays) can indeed induce a hesi by pushing the PC sides together preventing air from rushing in.
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Re: [mfob] A Scary Moment
Honestly, I did not feel super low till the other guy
came up to my on the ground all wild eyed saying
he thought I was going in, very low, etc.

However, the PC hesitation bugggged me and all
but 4 of jumps are slider-off so I am used to the
pattern of exit, thinking
*work*work* boom, and
then flying to land in single digit seconds.

As for the bridle, nothing was weird about it, the
exact same method used countless time by guys
and gals at the Perrine, Bridge Day, etc.

Yeah, I think routing my bridle out the top is the
simplest solution and hence Occam would approve.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:
Jumper #1 said it was lowest he had ever
seen anyone ever open. Of course it was
the lowest I had ever opened, my guess
would be between 100 and 150 feet.

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Re: [kiwibaser] A Scary Moment
kiwibaser wrote:
It seems to me that the strong wind at small falling speeds (delays) can indeed induce a hesi by pushing the PC sides together preventing air from rushing in.

Werd. I blame this thread for me being extra scared jumping in 4mph winds last night. LaughLaughLaugh
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:
"fuck, I'm going in" ran through my mind.

I always thought it was just me.
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Re: [kiwibaser] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
It seems to me that the strong wind at small falling speeds (delays) can indeed induce a hesi by pushing the PC sides together preventing air from rushing in.

this is something to thoroughly think about...
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
Just a stab in the dark?!

Was your PC stowed for any length of time? And how did you hold the PC? Was the fabric mushroomed tight or was it all floppy like a chef's hat? When you pitched the PC could have been bunched up.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
[minor hijack]
thanks to GreenMachine for starting this thread. there is a good discussion going. it seems to have got people thinking.

yeah!

I hope others might share stories as well. ya never know who it might help!
[/minor hijack]
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Re: [gauleyguide] A Scary Moment
Was your PC stowed for any length of time?

NO, unless it is an outside climb I usually
drag my fat ass up with the rig in my stash
bag and prep prior to the jump.

If it is an outside climb but I plan to go with
the PC in my hand I always shake it out and
then prep for the handheld deployment.

how did you hold the PC?

Usually for Go and Throws OR very short delays
I go with the mushroom, like a chef's floppy hat.

If I am taking longer than 1 second then I go
with the S-fold method to give myself less
drag in freefall and more of a chunk-of-funk
to toss at pitch time.

This jump I went with the S-fold given the
strong tail wind and expectation of taking a
fat 1 long second delay till pitch time.

Like
Sam/980 said, I video/photo a lot of
jumps so I plan to review them and will
post back anything even semi-note-worthy Wink
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
Do you place the bite of bridle into the riser cover before or after you dawn your rig?

Cause if you stow the bridle prior to dawning, what may seem like a loose tuck could become tight after you put on your rig?(and viseaversa)

-or-

shit happens.
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Re: [gauleyguide] A Scary Moment
gauleyguide wrote:

-or-

shit happens.

Yeah, but where's the fun in just saying that? Wink

I need these big philosophical debates to get me through the work day!
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
so far, and obviously this is just like, my opinion man...

but i don't think anything happened abnormally at all. it was probably just your perception.

300ft is on the high side of slider off (or down) BASE for me. if you want to get that scared feeling, do a bunch of static lines for a while, then go do a handheld again from 300 or lower. the opening sequence will feel like an eternity. Smile

judging from your recent posting, you've been doing a lot of SLs and whatnot, so that may have been what you felt.

kiwibaser wrote:
It seems to me that the strong wind at small falling speeds (delays) can indeed induce a hesi by pushing the PC sides together preventing air from rushing in.

this doesn't make any sense to me either. the pilot chute is anchored by the bridal. once it is thrown and reaches bridal stretch, it shouldn't matter which way the wind (or relative wind) is blowing because regardless it will be along the bridal and up the apex of the PC. i have never had any issues with short delays in strong tailwinds. in fact, i prefer them as i believe it increases initial snatch force on short delays and insures the PC will fly cleanly away from you upon exit.

again, just my perception on the matter.Tongue
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
I finally read this thread. Considering a normal deployment using the equipment you have takes around 120 feet, plus a little more for pressurization. it seems you may have had some, but very little, hesitation. A tucked bridle REALLY needs to be constricted to make any difference. Think about how much is tucked into the lower corner of the rig. There's no way, you're tucking that much at the shoulder. You can always ground test bridle tucks. It's tough to screw up a tuck if it's not hooked around anything

A full 1 second is 16 feet. Depending on how you throw, the Pilot chute will be at bridle stretch at or above the level you threw from. If you toss downward, you lose a few feet. Pilot chutes do malfunction sometimes. Most clear before you ever know it but if they hesitate for whatever reason, you lose a fair amount of altitude.

A 2 second delay would lose around 48 feet. From 300 feet, that's still roughly 250 feet. A normal opening would put you close to 100 foot range under those circumstances.

A strong tail wind gives the illusion of being lower. The canopy will be influenced some by the wind since it will open a little more forward of your body's center, then you quickly begin to travel across the ground at 30 MPH. Turning around suddenly seems much more important. We all know this next one, a diving turn will lose altitude quick. That also gives the illusion you were lower.

Pilot chutes do weird things sometimes. If it's upside down at bridle stretch, it must be righted. As it's being righted, the pilot chute isn't just turning over, it's being quite distorted as it peels into position. It can very well stay collapsed for a moment longer.

Understand how the pilot chute begins to work under usual circumstances with short delays. First, it reaches bridle stretch. The pilot chute is elongated and begins to fill. It then has enough drag to pull the pins and begin pulling on the parachute. It then fills the rest of the way and finishes the job. A quick camera will catch that.

If for some reason (which can be very difficult to define), there is a pause between bridle stretch and the initial fill, then you're in for a hesi and all the feelings that go with it.

The short asnwer: 100 to 150 doesn't seem that low Cool
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Re: [blitzkrieg] A Scary Moment
blitzkrieg wrote:
so far, and obviously this is just like, my opinion man...

but i don't think anything happened abnormally at all. it was probably just your perception.

300ft is on the high side of slider off (or down) BASE for me. if you want to get that scared feeling, do a bunch of static lines for a while, then go do a handheld again from 300 or lower. the opening sequence will feel like an eternity. Smile


judging from your recent posting, you've been doing a lot of SLs and whatnot, so that may have been what you felt.

kiwibaser wrote:
It seems to me that the strong wind at small falling speeds (delays) can indeed induce a hesi by pushing the PC sides together preventing air from rushing in.

this doesn't make any sense to me either. the pilot chute is anchored by the bridal. once it is thrown and reaches bridal stretch, it shouldn't matter which way the wind (or relative wind) is blowing because regardless it will be along the bridal and up the apex of the PC. i have never had any issues with short delays in strong tailwinds. in fact, i prefer them as i believe it increases initial snatch force on short delays and insures the PC will fly cleanly away from you upon exit.

again, just my perception on the matter. Tongue

My own experiences (especially the part about going from static line back to the 300' jumps) support this theory entirely.
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Re: [hookitt] A Scary Moment
hookitt wrote:
I finally read this thread. Considering a normal deployment using the equipment you have takes around 120 feet, plus a little more for pressurization. it seems you may have had some, but very little, hesitation. A tucked bridle REALLY needs to be constricted to make any difference. Think about how much is tucked into the lower corner of the rig. There's no way, you're tucking that much at the shoulder. You can always ground test bridle tucks. It's tough to screw up a tuck if it's not hooked around anything

A full 1 second is 16 feet. Depending on how you throw, the Pilot chute will be at bridle stretch at or above the level you threw from. If you toss downward, you lose a few feet. Pilot chutes do malfunction sometimes. Most clear before you ever know it but if they hesitate for whatever reason, you lose a fair amount of altitude.

A 2 second delay would lose around 48 feet. From 300 feet, that's still roughly 250 feet. A normal opening would put you close to 100 foot range under those circumstances.

A strong tail wind gives the illusion of being lower. The canopy will be influenced some by the wind since it will open a little more forward of your body's center, then you quickly begin to travel across the ground at 30 MPH. Turning around suddenly seems much more important. We all know this next one, a diving turn will lose altitude quick. That also gives the illusion you were lower.

Pilot chutes do weird things sometimes. If it's upside down at bridle stretch, it must be righted. As it's being righted, the pilot chute isn't just turning over, it's being quite distorted as it peels into position. It can very well stay collapsed for a moment longer.

Understand how the pilot chute begins to work under usual circumstances with short delays. First, it reaches bridle stretch. The pilot chute is elongated and begins to fill. It then has enough drag to pull the pins and begin pulling on the parachute. It then fills the rest of the way and finishes the job. A quick camera will catch that.

If for some reason (which can be very difficult to define), there is a pause between bridle stretch and the initial fill, then you're in for a hesi and all the feelings that go with it.

The short asnwer: 100 to 150 doesn't seem that low Cool
You may also want to consider canopy size. I believe he jumps a Troll 285 (301 PIA). I thought opening height seemed about right for that size canopy.
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GreenMachine Is Just A Wussy
Opening altitude might have been lower but I know how
people have a tendency to exaggerate in that direction
so I tried to be fair/conservative with my estimate.

Yes, doing several static lines prior to that jump, strong
tail winds, the new object, the other jumper's reaction,
probably all contributed to my perception of the event,
however, there was some pilot chute hesitation.

Thank you all for your replies and the humor!
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Re: [GreenMachine] GreenMachine Is Just A Wussy
haha... not necessarily a wussy (although you areTongue) but entering the unknown (whether actual or perceived) usually precipitates some pucker factor.

it's all part of the fun!Smile
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Re: [blitzkrieg] A Scary Moment
"this doesn't make any sense to me "

What I had in mind was this....


Just a hypothesis ...I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm aware of the fact it might be a complete NonsenseSmile

"strong tailwinds..... i prefer them"

just take care cause some (very)strong tailwinds may kill you, fatality list #111
but hey wtf do I knowTongue
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Re: [kiwibaser] A Scary Moment
i understand your drawing and hypothesis, but i just don't think that's how it works. i don't know a reasonable way to explain it though. other than maybe looking at exiting an aircraft, the relative wind known as the hill. you don't have wind coming from two directions, just one direction, and then its origin transitions as you progress through acceleration.

if it doesn't make sense, it really doesn't matter. because it comes down to this...
In reply to:
just take care cause some (very)strong tailwinds may kill you
if the wind is too strong (or there is any undesirable variable for that matter) for you to safely jump, then that's your answer.Smile
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Re: [blitzkrieg] A Scary Moment
agree ! Cool
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Re: [blitzkrieg] A Scary Moment
blitzkrieg wrote:
if the wind is too strong (or there is any undesirable variable for that matter) for you to safely jump, then that's your answer. Smile

I agree. Its different for everyone although I think there is a cap on that (whatever mph that happens to be)
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Re: [Kiki32] A Scary Moment
In reply to:
if the wind is too strong

Kiki32 wrote:
Its different for everyone

And every object!!

I hucked the Perrine one day where
there were literally 20 people at the
exit point and I had to ask them to
move so I could jump.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:
In reply to:
if the wind is too strong

Kiki32 wrote:
Its different for everyone

And every object!!

I hucked the Perrine one day where
there were literally 20 people at the
exit point and I had to ask them to
move so I could jump.

you have that large of a paparazzi? taking it to the next level after playboy dayblaze? Sometimes you just open lower and it seems really lower.
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:
Pin tension minimal.

No velcro on the bridle.

I had the same thing happen i believe all the jumps before i had been packed the night befor....the jump the pc was happy to just follow me on was a fresh pack job and i believe it was tighter then the others packs that sat all night...some thing to think about
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Re: [GreenMachine] A Scary Moment
GreenMachine wrote:

"fuck, I'm going in" Unsure

every time i walk in the door at 3:am and the wife is sitting there awake............
In reply to:
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Re: [mrwatson] A Scary Moment
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh