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How many of you use this method to attach the rubber band? I have been using it for the past 17 jumps without probs but last night i had a mean snivel that put me in the saddle at ~75'. I have reason to believe it was a tailgate hangup especially given the fact that i remember it being a pain in the ass to do the double wrap when i was packing.

Anyone else had this problem? Do you think the larks head is the actual culprit or could it simply have been the way I was double wrapping it?

where you slider up? Or was it a slider down snivel?? More info please... delay, etc

My bad.
Height- 315'
delay- approx .5 sec
48" pc
slider off
also for what its worth, I dont roll the nose, I s-fold it.

What kind of rubber band? Black or regular?

Usually a rubberband isn't strong enough to hold the tail in place causing a slow opening. It has happened

Were you able to see the canopy? Was it open in the front but constricted in the back? was the front closed as well?

Edit: By the way, Larks Head does have a potential to hang up, it's unlikely but it has happened.

depending on the wind... I might say it could have been too short a delay.. I have had it happen a couple times. you have to speed up enough for the PC to work/ could be in your burble....

That's a hesitation not a snivel. But you have a point.

Did the canopy actually set you up and open real slow or did you remain in freefall longer than usual?

a tailgate will not cause a hesitation. it will cause a tailgate hangup. you will notice it. a hesitation will be a hesitation.

Sorry I guess im not explaining enough. Im not sure if this is PC related because Ive taken shorter delays and have opened way faster and higher. That being said, I wont rule it out.

I pitched and did feel the snatch from the PC, as my body went into the stand position. It was in that position that i seemed to idle too long. I didnt know if the canopy was visible or not, I was too busy looking at the ground (stupid I know )

I use the regular small rubber bands, not the black ones.

Sounds like a tailgate hangup... If your going to use a larks head adjust the number of wraps dependingon the rubber band/tailgate you use...

Another thing to consider is how your wingloading the canopy your flying. If your light on it, there may be more of a possibility for a tail gate hang up...

Anybody else have any imput?

Do you stow a bite of all lines with a rubber band attached to trailing edge under the tailpocket (aka "primary stow")? If yes, could the snivel have been caused by this rubber band being too tight?

I only use the primary stow when going slider up. I made sure I had the pins primed, even had all of my flaps undone. Loading the thing pretty light though, so maybe thats it? Im doing a full inspection tonight, hopefully that tells me something.

From a physics and design standpoint...the flaps being undone and the pins being primed doesn't do much.(other than comfert factor) As Tim said the larks head might have caused the hang up. I personally don't larks head my tailgate. Pilot chute hesitation/occsilation could have caused the slowed canopy inflation time. I have ran into that before. I freefell a 240 object...heard the pins pop...felt the container go loose...then nothing.... I opened SUPER low with a 1 second canopy ride on risers. In all reality based on the authors statements; there are too many variables to reach a solid conclusion. Of course that comes with any base jump.

Ody

While we're at it I wonder about how people larkshead the band on the tailgate. Up until my last packjob I've never larksheaded the band but used 2-3 wraps on the tailgate (I'd guess the tails to be about 2 1/2" long) and pushed the band down to the lines. I just packed with a larkshead and only one wrap but left the larkshead and wrap towards the tips of the tailgate, just didn't like the way it looked jammed down tight. My openings have been slower than I'd like slider down, I'm hoping a looser tailgate will help. the larkshead is just an experiment.

if i'm using a tailgate (as opposed to masking tape) i always larks head.

i move the larks head towards the middle of the tailgate and make the wraps to the outside of the LH towards the ends of the tailgate to allow it to slip out easier. i also use a small band cut in half. has been reliable thus far.

i was using the same technique, larks head then 2 wraps outside, near the tips of the TG


now i use a thin rubberband to keep the tg-rubberband in place, works well so far. i loose the rubberband once in a while when i have to change it anyway because of normal degradation

i always set the 2-3 wraps near the tips of the tailgate, not tight on the lines

hey, cool. that's a neat idea.

My own take on this is simply asking myself if it is really a big deal to just cut a bunch of tail gate rubberbands and replace them if I have to. I mean it is just a rubberband. Since it is close to impossible without ground video or good video of your opening to determine what may have caused a hesitation or hangup or whatever then why not just eliminate one possibility by not larksheading the rubber and just replacing the rubberband after each jump? a penny a jump or never knowing if maybe it was that damn larkshead that broke your ankles on an ultra low freefall? again it is unlikely that it is a problem but it is known to have happened.... so I just choose to keep replacing them when needed... (I just do three wraps and push it down to just above the lines. The last three jumps of mine the band has actually stayed on one side of the tailgate even though it was not larksheaded...) ;-). Again just my opinion on why I don't larkshead... :-)

Are you stowing your 48"? I have been and have had few short delays that the pc has taken a little long to inflate on a 300' jump. I have switched to a 42'' and take longer delays, saving the 48'' for hh only. Never had a tailgate hangup, always larks headed and 2 -3 wraps.

because littering the LZ with rubber-bands is not cool.

I understand this point but if you are a jumper that chooses not to larkshead the rubberband because you believe this can cause a hangup and most owners manuals reccomend that you do not larks head the rubberband, is this really a reason to change something that could affect your jump negatively? (not applicable to jumpers that don't think it matters whether you larkshead or not) ... ;-)

probably not. i say do whatever makes you feel comfortable. it's your jump and your life after all.

really i just don't like digging for rubber bands on every pack-job. oddly enough, i always seem to be missing my bag of bands when i need them and end up using tape and at times when i don't have that around either, thin pieces of bark, in lieu of a tail gate.

I like this idea, that looks pretty nifty. I didn't know people rubber band so far down the tailgate. I had my larkshead even closer to the tip than you just showed in the picture.

Gofastmax: No, I dont stow anything larger than the 42, I was going HH on that jump as usual.

Doesn't sound like a tailgate hangup to me, though to be fair that's working from a sample of one myself. I had a hangup from 165', and wouldn't say the opening felt any slower than usual, or like it sniveled. I'd be kind of surprised to see somebody say that a tailgate hangup "stood them up", too, since in my case the opening was more or less like a normal opening. That you were using tan elastics (cut in half, I assume?), larksheaded or not, and that it seems this was a freefall jump make a hangup incredibly unlikely, IMHO.

I'd describe my experience as the same feeling you get when your canopy opens in a stall -- which is probably a good description of the situation anyway. I never cleared mine, and while the landing was really, really hard, I did make two more jumps that day. If you wouldn't describe your situation, had it not resolved itself, as "probably landable with minor injury", I'd look elsewhere for a cause.

Actually this isnt the first time someone suggested that I might have opened in a stall. I was using dbs in a bit higher winds than normal so its possible it could've been that too.

I normally am not keen on taking vid or pics jumping illegal objects but Im kinda considering it from now on just for the learning purposes of it.

what do you weigh and what size canopy do you jump? That could be a good start in figuring out if your opening in a stall.

Have you adjusted your dbs at all?

I weigh 135 without gear and I fly a 220. Using factory deep which is actually a little shallow.

If the tailgate did actually hang up, the canopy would have clearly stood you up first. A malfunctioning canopy would be above your head. Front of the canopy spread out, the tail constricted. You'd have already reached for the risers/toggles that were above you at this point. Obviously, the descent rate would still be higher than usual.

If it did not clearly stand you up, it was some form of hesitation and you were in freefall a bit longer than expected.

If a canopy opens in a stall, it is still a quick slam open just like normal, however, it would start to slide backwards until the brakes were cleared, then it would surge forward.

The rubber band can be wrapped around the tailgate and pulled down the tailgate as far as i can go, it will come off. If it's larks headed onto the tailgate, it's still very tough to keep it from coming off, but again, the canopy will stand you up if it didn't come off.

A half second delay is long enough. I have countless 1/2 second delays and have watched countless 1/2 second, and less than 1/2 second delays. Very often a 1 second delay in someones head is actually a go and throw (no second delay). It occurs regularly.

Hope that helps.

Edit: I'm not ruling out a hung up tailgate. Unlikely as they can be, it has happened. The ones I know about are from unpacked jumps and a static line. There could be more.

Interesting. If what you say is true then it couldve just been a PC hesi. Just think its weird that I was in a stand with no risers out or anything. I inspected the PC for a possible bridle over but didnt find any burns. No burns on the lines or tailgate either. The whole tailgate and rubber band was still there. I guess this is just one of those situations that is hard to tell without video what happened. Kinda creepy but hey, thats the sport.

If there's no risers out, your canopy's not sniveling, it's simply not open at all.

With that description, my hypothesis is: You stood yourself up.

Muscle memory can be pretty powerful (and this is NOT a good thing). Your body knows how long it takes from pitch to canopy, if there's some hesitation, you can't see it, and your body's going to react as if things are normal. Get out of this habit, now. If something is not happening as normal, you should not be reacting normally.

I had a great experience with this last weekend. I've been throwing nothing but double gainers at the bridge. I huck one and end up rotating much more slowly than normal. I reached after the same amount of time I was used to, but my rotation wasn't done so I had to wait for another half second before I pitched. If I hadn't stopped the muscle memory and pitched early, I would have been more likely to catch the bridle or been in a bad position for opening.

people have been sharing good info. it's been a good discussion, but probably irrelevant, in this situation, if the risers or nothing else was out.

remember, things ALWAYS seem mysterious if you look for answers in the wrong place!

K.I.S.S.

Nice.
Larks heading? Are you serious? I actually thought this was a troll post. I want to say something like "When did you arrive on this planet" but I won't. I am cuttin ya some slack.
Take care,
space

I hate you.

Back at ya -0.25%
Take care,
space

I used to use a larks head, but realized i could also clove hitch the same rubber band on to the tailgate. it's a slightly lower profile knot but i just try to make sure the wraps are outside the knot and never had a problem with either technique. (and i feel better not leaving trash behind)

I never even thought of using a clove hitch before. Interesting..

to clarify, before somebody asks:

i don't clove hitch the rubber band around both ends of the tailgate, only one end obviously. just to keep it attached. then i wrap both ends

Wow I just read this . Although you can blame about anything you want, to make it fit the need for a culprit to your problem that occurred. from all you say and describe. It is Highly unlikely your blame on a Hesitation that puts you a little lower than usual on a deployment to, "Use or attachment method of rubber band" or "tailgate hang-up" or a "Double wrap" of rubber band or "Larks Head" or anything to do with the Tailgate or maybe it was a black death, Black rubber band. No fucking way. You can want those culprits to be the scapegoat but I repeat, No fucking Way. You like others put Way To Much clutter and mental weight to the simple & very efficient mechanical design function of the Rubber Band and Tailgate. Tailgate & Rubber Band Works by guiding with light influence the grossly underestimated and explosive power of the Tail of an inflating canopy that is moving though all and any deployment speeds. So Enjoy the ground rush and welcome to the world of BASE jumping.
.

Nice

second that...

Fair enough ;) Yeah Ive come to the conclusion over the past few weeks that it was probably just a case of shit happens.

In November of 2000, I had the same thing happen to me he first time i used a tailgate. After a close inspection, turns out I had a pull up cord tied around my lines where they attach to the canopy. Check that out. Surprised the hell out of me!