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I had a shoulder surgery almost a year ago now, due to a skydiving premature opening. I sustained significant damage, and was told by my doc that if I ever dislocate it again, I will need a shoulder replacement.

I have been jumping since Febuary, and I have done one three second slider off and several two second slider off jumps with no or little pain in my shoulder. I am at the point in my recovery where I have gained about as much stability as I can, and I am looking to jump a 2000' A soon. I would like to know how a terminal mesh slider up opening compares to a two to three second slider off jump.

I keep my chest strap very tight to keep the shoulder straps in so that the brunt of the force is taken by my chest and collar bone. I plan to wear a baggy jumpsuit to slow myself down, but am also considering getting a tracking suit for the same purpose and would appreciate any input from people who have experience with traking suit terminal openings. I am also considerig getting a small mesh slider, and would like to hear from those who have jumped both small and big mesh sliders. Any other ideas that could help me to either slow the opening safely or further protect my shoulder would be appreciated.

Zach

So you are finally planning on doing the full climb... fun! Good luck with the jump... would be nice to figure out that elevator though... I'll be happy to GC...

Other than Strengthening with weights; Try pitching in a track keep arms at your sides shoulder blades squeezed together(this gives stability). You may still have the occasional hard opening but by keeping your upper arm against your body and shoulder blades squeezed together you will avoid damage to the shoulder during opening shock.

Are you wearing a shoulder brace for the jumps?

I think it was in 1999 that I saw a guy dislocate his shoulder on a 2 second slider down opening (like yours it was previously injured). He used one hand to steer the canopy, and flared both toggles in that same hand. It was impressive, and I'm glad it wasn't me.

The best thing you could probably do is to wear a brace or support of some kind. Do a search online, there are a ton of differing styles and types. I don't think that just tightening your chest strap is going to help much.

Even though it may be fine right now, it's probably weak, and all it takes is one wrong force vector on your shoulder and it could blow it out again and then you're screwed.

An ounce of prevention...

  I havent found small mesh to be much different than large mesh for openings at terminal. Maybe try a sail slider and pull higher.

Here's my 2 coins:

Unlike SLAMBO (not saying he is wrong by any means--just different experiences), I notice quite a difference on terminal openings from large to small mesh. I also notice a HUGE difference with pc size. If I go full terminal, which at 2K you should be, I use a 36" PC (have used a 38" and it knock the fuck out of me) and small mesh slider. Now keep in mind I have only owned/jumped vented canopies. If you are jumping non-vented probably differnt story.

Also get in touch with hookitt on these boards. I've done a lot of jumping with him and he has a fucked up shoulder. He wears some type of brace that he says helps quite a bit. He may even chime in here.

Good luck, and yes blowing your shoulder out on any jump would just plain suck ass.

Thanks for all the advice. I will get a small mesh slider, a PC smaller than my 38", and a brace for my shoulder.

One more thing I am cosidering is getting another canopy, nonvented, specifically for slider up jumps. Will it make a difference? What BASE canopy is going to give me the softest, most consistent openings?

Most of the braces available don't work so I made one.

The simple description is:

A wide strap around the chest. A wide strap around the upper arm. A piece of about 4 1/2 to 5 inches of webbing attaching the 2 pieces. (use the center of the straps, not the edges.

When the arm is raised (same motion as reaching for toggles) the shoulder is pulled tighter into socket. Most braces have no effect once you raise the arm horizontal.

In a pinch I've used a belt around my chest and made the rest out of duct tape... seriously :) I'd have to show you how to make that.

The reason I made it in the first place was my shoulder would dislocate real easy. I made the brace and it stopped. After a lot of years, I finally don't use the brace. My shoulder aged with the rest of me and quit being unstable.

If you get in touch with me, I'll help you design one for you... it's really simple yet affective.

PS: I've used 38 for terminal several times. It opened fine. 36 f-111 would probably be better but it's what I had. I now use a 34 Asylum PC for terminal jumps.

Properly rolling the nose and making sure the slider actually stays up prior to line stretch makes a big difference.

"Softest" and "most consistent" aren't necessarily the same canopy.

If I wanted to buy a dedicated slider up canopy with the idea of getting the softest possible openings out of it, I'd probably go with a (standard, unvented) Troll. Honestly, though, I don't think there's going to be much difference between canopies in this regard, and in that case, I'd go with one that can do double duty on other things, so pick your favorite (or get an unvented copy of your current canopy--it's a Flik, isn't it?).

The best things you can do for a slower opening, after changing out the slider, is to pull _a lot_ of slider through the direct control stow, and wrap it super tight.

After that, make sure your nose rolls are very tight (with the 6 outside cells) and tuck the center cell into the middle (rather than exposing it). That won't make things particularly consistent, but should make them softer.

Shoulder instability is the most ancient surrgery of this type. That's why it is the most successful, as a result.
If you don't get surgery, your best bet is to keep building up these muscles that keep the humerus head in place.
And I guess duct tape and bandages), but they are a fake safety.
Once, I got mine dislocated initiating a back loop, during a style, from an airplane. Not very easy to flare, as Tom mentionned.

My personal experience is that, after the 2nd dislocation, the sooner the operation, the better : The better is the recovery, ie less strains on the ligaments, less damage to the shoulder cap and to the muscle insertions, hence more strength after recovery, more stability, and less pain for the rest of your life.
After the 2nd accident, dont' wait, find a good surgeon.

That's the best option of course and if it's an option... yes by all means do it now. I didn't have that option. Also, depending on which surgery they do it can come out again. Brittany had surgery, then had to have a more invasive one after it came out again.

It kept my arm solid enough to become an AFF instructor without concern. . I stole the idea from a kayaker and it's worked. It's blinding flash of the obvious simple so I'll share it. I'm not able to make a diagram at the moment but I will.

BTW, my shoulder has probably been out over 10 times. That's not an exageration but possibly an understatement. It's stable now after years of staying in the socket and aging.

I second Tom and Tim's points. Like Tim said, make sure the slider stays up until line stretch by doing what Tom said, big bite of slider wrapped tight for direct control.

I use a 260BJw/ZP, small mesh, 38" asylum zp vented, I roll the outside cells in toward the center cell and then wrap that side of the center cell around the outside cells so that the top of the top skin is in contact with the rolled up outside cells (this is the opposite of what Tom was saying) I take the center of the slider with one hand, make a circle with index finger and thumb of the other hand and pull about 3 inches of the center of the slider through the hole, then I fold that in half and double wrap it with my c line rubber, double wrap the primary stow, rest of the packjob exactly like slider down, and when closing the container I wrap the nose around the whole pack job, just like I do slider down (I think this helps insure heading, like Tom said). Tom is probably right that it will be softer if you burry the center nose instead. I don't have a large number of jumps with this method, but all my 6 second plus jumps have been made like this and I have never had a hard opening, always fast and directly on heading, but not really hard.

Hey Tom,

On the bottom of page 25 of the crmojo's web site(the online pdf file for packing)

reads..."CR recommends that your initial jumps be made using indirect slider control only. Canopies reefed with direct
slider control can open harder and have less consistent heading reliability."

How can this be so?

Thanks

BTW-Im sitting here writting this a bag of frozen peas on my shoulder

Here's the link

a sail slider will give you consistant slower openings. everytime. ive wateched friends use them on ravens off 1800 ft A's and have no worries.

I have a SuperRaven 249 with a sail slider, but would that really be safe for doing a terminal A?

As long as you pull high enough, yes. A sail slider is also available for your BASE canopy.

I guess that I disagree with the CR manual then.

I haven't actually asked Adam about it, but now that you mention it, I may try to find a chance to ask him about it.

I'm a big fan of using both control methods, because keeping the slider up in the pack job until line stretch is pretty important. Early slider deployment could lead to lots of bad things--tension knots, super hard openings, off headings, the list goes on... I figure that if one of the rubber bands breaks in the pack tray, this is something I really want a back up on.

yea dude all good. you just have to be smart about it, and be conservative with pull height.

I read over that a couple of times to make sure I wasn't missing anything, it doesn't seem right. The manual was puplished in 2002, I wonder if its outdated?

I dislocating my right shoulder on opening on a slider up base jump about two weeks ago, I guess the delay was about 7 seconds. It's not fun. Lucky for me the canopy was on heading with a large landing area, so rest of the jump was uneventful. I was on my way to hospital within a few minutes.

I'd dislocated it twice previously while skydiving, wish I had gotten surgery after the second time. I had made 40 base jumps and about the 50 skydives since the last time I dislocated so it seemed ok. But one hard opening and they I was doing the windmill under canopy again! An off heading to the left would probably have been a big problem as would a tight landing area.

I put a sail slider on my BJ at the DZ because the DZO was a buddy of mine, I was using a container and reserve of his, and he asked me too. It was the worst opening I've ever had. The slider was way to big and it took about 10 seconds with a lot of break pumping to get the fucker down. Luckily I had dumped at 5k planning on playing with my new BJ or I would have been paying for a reserve repack, buying beer, and would have had to rent gear if I wanted to jump anymore (A motorcycle was my only transportation at the time and I drove a little over 100 miles with just the base rig to the DZ)

You should only put the actual Blackjack sail slider, available from CR, on the Blackjack. If you use another slider, then you're a test jumper, and you get to deal with all that entails. At the DZ, with a reserve, go for it, but I'd never recommend that anyone try a nonstandard sail slider for the first time on a BASE jump.

This seems like a much more budget friendly option than buying an unvented BASE canopy with a small mesh slider and safer than jumping my Raven 249. Does anyone have experience with using a sail slider with a vented canopy?

I just told you mine, but that wasn't the manufacturers slider.

Yea, I hear ya, but as Tom said it makes a huge differrence whether or not the slider is designed for the canopy you are using it with. I doubt Apex would sell me a slider for my Flik 293 that wouldnt work well, but I would like to have a geneal idea what the openings are like.

With a slider, the vents won't matter much. It'll open very much like an unvented canopy of the same model and size.

Once upon a time (mid 90's or so) sail sliders were the norm for terminal BASE jumps. The openings are a bit slower and less consistent than a mesh slider, but as long as you pull a bit higher at first to learn them, they're not dangerous.

I believe 460 femured due to an improperly sized slider, not sure if it was a sail or not, but from what i understand, slider sizes are specific to a canopy, and use of an improperly sized / designed slider can have serious consequences.

According to Todd at Apex , they swap slider sizes out all the time with no ill effects.

i was jumping an experimental trapezoidal slider, not a rectangular slider. the experimental slider caused my accident.

I'm pretty sure Todd would give some details and not say anything as vague as that.

A lot depends on how close you are to the original size, and also if you are jumping a technical object (or an airplane).

Bottom line: if you're not jumping the manufacturers slider for your canopy, you are a test jumper, with all that entails.

I finally climbed and the 2000' A. I thought I'd share what I ended up doing to protect my shoulder and how the jump went. I've kept up a strict PT regimen to keep it strong, tightened my chest strap to bring the pressure in to my chest and collar bones, used the brace that hookit designed, wore a baggy jumpsuit to increase drag, used a sail slider, with direct and indirect control, that I ordered from Apex, and used a 32" F-111 PC.

The plan was to take just enough delay to get a descent track going and pitch, I figured 6-8 seconds would do the job. I ended up taking 7 seconds, and with the sail slider the opening was soft and onheading but still plenty fast enough, over a minute under canopy. Thanks for all the help, the jump was awesome!

Nice!

Anyone care to demo or pm me the design of the shoulder brace please? Thank you.

CONGRATS BROTHA!! I hope your shoulde stays healthy.

My canopy got stuck on the gutter of an outbuilding below an A. My first instinct was to jump as high as I could and try to whip the lines/material up and over the corner it was stuck on. Instead somehow I whipped my shoulder out of socket and could feel it was not sitting right. Now I have a dislocated shoulder and a canopy stuck on a gutter, and of course cars are wizzing by. Couldn't get caught that night. Had to rip the gutter down so much for not leaving a trace...At least I felt bad. Sorry Alabama!

While we're resurrecting old threads, I did exactly this three weeks ago. Had dislocated it a couple weeks prior in a swooping accident. Then it happened on my 19th jump due to poor body position (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqWdSPY0Zt4). I'm still jumping, but it'll only be slider up or unpacked for a couple months.

I think the sweet matching yellow jumpsuit is to blame!

I know, right? At least I wasn't wearing a red shirt.

But still pretty but-boy moto-crosssssssss :)))))