Basejumper.com - archive

this thread seems to establish most people here believe jumper errors lead to most injuries/incidents/accidents.

BASE has no governing body (and I've never heard anyone seriously want one). thus we lack the equivalent of a USPA reviewing accidents, generating best practices, authorizing new techniques, in general, covering the butts of all instructors.

the Stavanger BASE Klubb effectively limits access to a great site, helping to lessen rescue calls.

folks in the Swiss Valley lack a similar mechanism for screening jumpers. the true locals are struggling against a rising sentiment AGAINST jumping.

the recent post by a jumper effectively saying, "either answer my question or remain quiet" seems all too familiar. apparently some people PM'd the OP. I thought I'd give everyone an attempt to openly vote for or against open sharing of info.

What sort of knowledge?

My personal view is that technical knowledge, community relations and some jumper contacts ought to be shared openly. Site locations, some site access techniques, and some jumper contacts (those jumpers who are more private) should be held tighter.

Yes.

Sharing the knowledge has always been the key to evolution of safety and good practices in sports.

Why would you share the knowledge with only people you can trust on and not with everyone?

Basejumpers are afraid of newcomers. But the decision doesnt depend on the amount of acquired knowledge IMHO. Determined people will be on exitpoints with whatever gear they can buy on the secondhand market, without any question, with or without the required knowledge. Having a lot of information can only help you decide wether or not you want to participate, and wether or not you are ready for it. For most of the interested whuffos, it would help them understand that they aren't.

Sharing the information has only positive aspects :

-Avoiding people making many times the same mistake.

-Helping the newcomers to choose proper gear, proper exitpoint, and to accomplish proper training before trying anything stupid.

-Improving the general public image by making people understand that basejumping is not "nuts leaping off objects" but more "athletes accomplishing a well analysed and prepared action".

-Finally, setting a standard for participants. Best working configurations, failure rate, numbers of incidents are difficult to spot right now because of the lack of communication, and the non-existence of any organ able to compile and analyse data.


and no, theres no absolute truth in personal point of view

I guess I left it a bit undefined, thus people can define it how they see fit.

my intention was the sort of knowledge to make a jump. like exit point. the sort of stuff that gets asked virtually every other week. the sort of stuff that causes the original poster to think he is being insulted because people choose not to share the information sought.

Only after the recipient earns trust.

I have been lurking for a while and, after a few beers, have decided to chime in from the perspective of being on the outside looking in.

I agree with both Tom and Lucifer in that sharing information openly can be beneficial to the safety and public perception of this sport. I have benefited greatly from the information (and viewpoints) presented on this forum. However, I think that the benefits of openly sharing information come with the caveat that those seeking the information need to put forth a certain amount of effort in learning not only the technical aspects of BASE jumping, but also in demonstrating that they do not pose a threat to the continued life of the sport. In my mind, the question can be broken down into two separate, though interrelated, issues as Tom’s post suggests: technical information and “access” information.

Technical knowledge, if shared, benefits all participants of the sport without necessarily endangering the sport itself. “Access” information, on the other hand has the potential to disrupt the ‘natural’ state of things relative to a particular BASE site or community. It seems that the second type of information has much more potential to be detrimental to the community as a whole and, therefore, is shared much more sparingly. The ‘talk to the locals’ concept comes to mind, which I would assume only works if the person seeking the information presents him or her self in such a way so as to assuage the locals’ concern that the prospective jumper might burn their sites to the ground or injure/kill themselves, consequently drawing negative attention. The technical knowledge seems to be shared much more willingly and is accessible if one bothers to look for it.

wwarped mentioned “the sort of stuff that causes the original poster to think he is being insulted because people choose not to share the information sought.” This reaction implies a sense of entitlement when asking for information. In the interest of pursuing an entry into BASE I’ve lurked here for a while, made a couple hundred skydives, earned my rigger’s ticket, bought a second rig to get experience under a large 7 cell canopy, enrolled in an FJC, and ordered BASE specfic gear. All of this is to gain a basic technical understanding of the sport. I do not, however, presume to think that this entitles me to ‘access’ information. My hope is that when I start looking for a mentor and connections within the community (‘access’ information), my actions will demonstrate a logical thought process and a modicum of good judgement that reflects my character well enough to inspire a little trust from the community. Any experienced jumpers in eastern PA or the surrounding region need groundcrew?

knowledge- yes of coarse. shit if it wasnt for the ammount of info available i wouldnt be here. i never took a fjc. i learned by reading every last thing i could find, asking questions and observing jumps while gc.
i must say i feel the vast of the technical info came from internet and reading. i still learn things on here all the time which is why i bother logging on. trust me its not the personalities that keeps me coming back.
i feel at the time of my forst jump i retained way more information than people that just showed up for a weekend fjc with little prior knowledge of base.
man now that i think about it i even learned to pack via tom, A's dvd. minus 20 or so clamps its still the same packjob i do now.
in other words knowledge is key to a better saftey record in the sport. fucking period.

locations and exits- hell fucking no. im not telling the world directions to our hard earned local objects without knowing the bloke. i think that goes without explanation.

I like your phrasing better than my own! I guess I'm demonstrating what happens with a poorly formed question!



cool. care to share how all this prep work has helped? do you better understand the various threads/posts/articles? did you surprise yourself by what you learned? do you have fun?

This sport is ONLY alive at this point in history BECAUSE of open technical knowledge sharing.

The difference that always give the community a hard time, is EGO!

When I started, it was almost an act of GOD to prove that I was dedicated enough to learn to jump. Now, just find a jumper that wants his/her ego stoked, and you can get on a load. This is also why I think knowledge transfer is even more critical. If you really share what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT BE in terms of mentoring and training, some of it will stick, and the students will focus on FJC's instead of just another newbie to train them.

I have yet to go through the FJC (still a couple months away), but the rest of the process has been helpful primarily in that going through the recommend training (selected by paying attention to the info and guidance available here) allowed plenty of time to read and absorb technical info, the ethos of the community etc. Learning rigging was valuable in that it provided a clearer, more confident understanding of gear and packing. I think what it comes down to for me is being willing to put the time in and learn as much as I can on my own, being humble, and respecting the effort and knowledge of others that have come before.

As far as having fun goes, if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be doing it. The process of and way in which I pursue getting into BASE, to me, is just as important and personally rewarding as I hope my future jumping experience will be.

I agree with mickknutson, that ego can be problematic, both in the context of "experienced" jumpers being too eager to teach, and prospective jumpers feeling entitled to the benefits of "access" information (that other jumpers have worked hard to gain) without putting forth the effort, or demonstrating patience, good judgement, and an understanding of the repercussions of their actions.

As a newcomer to the community, I've said enough. Back to lurking.

I don't usually post but..

I agree with the fact that technical advice should be shared. access... not so much.
EX: Jumper C takes Jumper D to a very cool spot.
now Jumper D takes everyone just out of a fjc to that spot.

true story! and imo it all seems to be about ego. (Jumper D that is)

The end result in holding back techinical information and knowledge would be a greater amount of deaths.

You don't have to share anything, but that leads to objects being burnt, and "locals" (everytime i say that word i think or "Roystan vasey", and a bunch of imbred skydivers guarding there patch with pitchforks) getting slightly peaved, at visiting jumpers.

As a community, you's out there could decide not tell me a thing, However i'd still jump, i like to take my own risks, and information or not i'll stil make my own judgement on if something is either a good or bad idea.
And then i Flip for it...
and then i do it anyway...

its all about the dice

 I like the idea of shareing knowledge of a technical nature. But I think there should be some caution if the person asking dosen't have a jump count consistant with what he is asking, or an unlikely number of jumps with only one or two post. I recently heard of a skydiver not even of student status who had read an article by Brian Germian, and intentionaly shifted in his harness on opening to induce line twist. It did not have bed ending but it scared the hell out of him. With this in mind I would remind everyone, while certin advise might be great for someone with 200 or 300 jumps, it could prove deadly for a beginer.

To all on this site: Post with caution, read with more.

+1


keep writing like that and I might ask you to ghost write my posts! I really like your versions better. <sigh>

anyway, to repeat MY thoughts.
TECHNICAL/GENERAL info - it's shared here and at Mick's site. I wish more folks would simply read.

ACCESS/SPECIFIC info - this should be filtered and best communicated face to face. it let's the speaker evaluate the listener and adjust the delivery as required.

Yes! You should tell me EVERYTHING so I can go and start! Like what should I use to sew my parachute? Is just normal string okay or is there magic string? Can I just use my sheets?

Anyway. Yes. The less information kept "secret" the less rebellious people feel they should be because of it. Like teenagers. The only time I wold recommend not sharing info is, as stated above, if it would incriminate in some way, such as when it comes to objects and whatnot.

Of course, mostly this is just because if you people were more tight-lipped and less friendly and/or showboating, as in you didn't freely share experiences or achievements or conquests and everything, well, I might get bored. And really that's why people should do things: to keep me not bored. So good work.

i hear what your saying but i dont think thats usually the case. in fact thank god its not like the old days of having to suck dicks and run through the gauntlet to learn how to jump off something. if someone is safe, level headed and has the skydives why should he have to "prove himself" to another base jumper. lets be honest here, its jumping off objects with a parachute not running for president of the country.

id be happy to help a newbie out and tell him everything i know and it aint cuz of ego. as far as flashy cool guy stuff goes im an average base jumper at best. i dont go flippin sicky icky aerials , ive climbed down shit when others jumped, ive had my share of less than graceful landings. however i do jump intelligently, often and safely. ive scouted and opened a few objects successfully, turned some 180's around and generally am one heck of a goodfella. so i feel happy helping new jumpers further their base jumping and its not for ego. (im not talking about fjc stuff, just working with new guys after they have been trained by a qualified person.)

i have more in life than just this sport. its a big part of my life but its not nearly everything. people that make base out to be this high and mighty sport of all sports usually dont have much else in their life their proud of. they put too much importance on base than it really is. i love base, its fucking amazing! its taught me more about myself than any other activity but its still just jumping off shit with a parachute.

Good post!

until recently, I thought only hill Billy red necks who liked blowing things up ran for president. Proving there are some similarities with running for president and being an American base jumper..

Look, I am not advocating NOT teaching students. But when someone asks me to help them, I ask them to get the Skydiving Drills they need at the dz. Then I ask them to READ THE PUBLISHED MATERIAL because it is there to learn...

I hate to say this, but out of the hundreds of people that ask me to help, only 2 have ever done those drills.

To me, that does not show any dedication to actually want to get into the sport.


The funny thing is, can a student actually just jump out of a plane because they went on a tandem once? NO. They have to get a minimum amount of training at the DZ before an instructor takes you on a jump. You are by no means a great skydiver, but you have the basic knowledge you need. Why is BASE any different?

I removed several posts that threatened to hijack a serious discussion. we DO have a rule to keep things on topic. the people who have provided serious comments deserve that respect.

 

as the author of the first post, I do NOT agree that it contains the answer to Mick's question.

let me point out that USPA only has jurisdiction over those facilities who choose to join. it is not mandatory.

non-USPA drop zones share much in common with BASE jumping, IMHO. they can benefit from USPA's efforts, if they read them. (heck, I bet many jumpers in other countries educate themselves reading everything they can.)
BASE jumpers can benefit from the wisdom of others, if they read them.

I share Mick's view... (feel free to educate me otherwise)

Dude, I love the line.... Its still just jumpin off shit with a parachute. NUGGET?????????

who's base course did u take????

i completely agree that if a person isn't willing to do their homework fuck em.
i was more referring to attitudes like"well...ground crew for me for sucha sucha time and maybe ill help you". or like one very well known old timer once actually wrote on here "most of you aint worthy of ground crewing me" that kinda shit.

im not saying anyone is right or wrong, im just a jumper from a different generation that actually believes this base thing is going in a good direction. i dont feel we should be this super duper secretive cult of "im cooler than you" guys. i dont feel its wrong to post vids on the web, wrong to tell someone you base jump, i dont think sponsorship is an evil thing, ext...
i hear lots of people keep saying" we want this sport to be accepted and seen as legit" but bash the very things that will make that happen. ( fyi i dont care if it ever is)

p.s. i wasn't attacking your point just rambling thoughts. that shit happens when i haven't jumped in a week.

I say yes... If we don't, it is my opinion that we risk gettiing our objects burned by people that do not know the hard earned facts about they are jumping.

I have an example that was actually NOT bad for the would be mentor. It could have bee much worse...:

A person that I knew was young and dumb and really wanted to mentor someone. Not sure why... But, he had a guy from the DZ that asked me to take him. I refused unless he did the canopy skills I asked. He ignored them. Well I ignored him....

Not this other jumper, even though I warned him.

So with out any drills performed, he took him to old greeny. Those who know the landing area, know it is pretty huge. But there are common cross/down winds on the road. There is also a tree a little ways down, and if you do not 180, or sink it in, when there is no head wind, you will run out of road.

Piece of cake for a base jumper, but not always for a skydiver.

Anyways, I was on my OWN load, on the edge, and guess who DROPPED in.... ;)

Well, I wanted no part of this because I had told them MANY times NOT to do it. I jumped. Easy landing.
As I am stashing my stuff, the student jumps and make a straight in approach. No turns, not too much cross wind (1-2mph maybe). But he is not sinking it in at all. I see him fly right into a 20' tall tree/bush thing just like I said. I rushed over to ask if he is ok. No injuries or anything. but he and his canopy are totally STUCK and the only way they could get out, is to cut all his lines to remove the canopy from this mess. The 2 of them where there for hours digging this out because it was their mess.

Moral: If a jumper is not ready, they can have a wide range of issue that you, as the mentor are responsible for. IMHO. So imagine if the jumper got busted up and you have to carry him out....? Just because you though he didn't need to prove he was really ready to base jump?

Now, shit can still just HAPPEN, but if they have true dedication, then you are less likely to have an accident, but never 100%.

I second mickknutson post...

I still hold my statement that I believe we need to share information to prevent our objects from being burned, because of missing key details on how to approach and jump any given object.

But, as far as taking someone to an avdvanced object that hasn't attempted to gain the skills needed for a given jump, I personally wouldn't do it either.

I've been around minor and serious incidents in BASE. And quite honestly, they all suck. They especially suck when you know the person you are about to jump with is outside of their abilities, whether this is their current state of mind (not mentally engage for whatever reason), their physical abilities, or because of their current skill set.

All in all, shit happens enough when we approach jumps appropriately. And when someone jumps an object outside of their abilities, everyone pays for it when the jump goes bad.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in allowing each person to make their own decision. Meaning, I will never tell someone they can't jump an object (not that any BASE jumper has that kind of authority anyway). My personal approach is to tell the jumper the skills required for each given object. If they are within their abilities, I am happy to go with them. If they are not, I simply will not join them, no matter how offended they get.

I know we all have our own opinions/approach to BASE. So the above approach is simply how I keep BASE special for me, and greatly reducing the part of BASE that I do not enjoy.

Michael

So to clarify my vote...

I voted "Yes". But I would prefer the "Only after the recipient earns trust" happen naturally and regulated by the jumper themselves, with them knowing their own skill level and boundries.

In my opinion, BASE is not the sport to be if you do not know your own skill level and boundries.

My favorite part of BASE is mastering the the jump. If I am simply hucking off an object without preparation, then a good outcome is simply luck. And for me, I save my luck tickets for when is simply overlooked an aspect of a jump. But typically, the luck tickets that I have cashed in were the fact that I had trained for the overlooked aspect.

Michael

Hey,

Maybe let's go back to, the First BASE Jumper to unforutanaly to go in

Modern Day BASE

A Building

The Pull up Cord was found with the Rig at IMPACT

Yes

mAGOT