Basejumper.com - archive

should this person be put on the list

Jurgen Ornburger, February, 2002
Impact (Hiking)
Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland
Jurgen is a German BASE jumper who slipped on the ice while approaching the launch point on Moussy. He fell over the edge with a packed BASE rig in a stash bag on his back.

I know I have no say but I would think yes. BASE jumper, with rig, on way to jump. If the list is BASE fatalities, should they only include fatalities DURING a jump, even if the death occurs while participating in other aspects of it? BASE jumping is still the direct cause of his death, I think.

IMO this would be the same as if a race car driver is killed by another driver at a race while not driving his or herself, like if they were hit by it in a pit. It's still a death caused by the act, even if kind of detached.

Is this reasoning...sound?

definately... if you fell off a tower on the climb up and died... BASE was still the cause of your death. As was it the cause in this circumstance.

he was on the old list.

~Jake

I think yes... but you also have to consider.... what if I died driving my car on way to a tower to base jump?

>>he was on the old list.<<

Not exactly. He was on the second section of the List, the part that dealt with BASE jumpers who died "outside the sport." And those deaths, which included auto accidents, shootings, diseases, suicides, etc., were not numbered or counted toward the total number of BASE fatalities.

At the time this incident occurred most were of the opinion Jurgen shouldn't be on the BASE Fatality List. Even though I, at first, thought he should. But, like Leroy mentioned - where do you draw the line?

When the Perris Otter crashed and killed 16 people my first thought was they died skydiving. But I was in the minority. Most every one else thought they died in a plane crash, and not actually in the act of skydiving. Some of that was, I thought, people not wanting to add 16 names to that year's skydiving fatality count but to this day jumpers who become plane crash victims aren't considered, or counted, as skydiving deaths.

My argument at the time of the crash was if any one of those sixteen people had awoke that morning and decided to go fishing instead of skydiving they'd still be alive today. But again, where do you draw the line?

Let's look at "fell while climbing a tower" like someone else said. Is climbing a tower BASE jumping or is it just climbing a tower? Once, in the late 1980s I was on top of a 1400-foot tower, one I'd never been on before, at night, with my BASE rig over my shoulders but not strapped on. I went to lean back against a railing in a spot where there was no railing and almost went over except for a lucky grab that stopped me. Had I gone over would that have been a BASE fatality? I would have been in the same boat as Jurgen. Dead for sure, but in a very ironic way when you consider we'd fallen to our deaths on the way to a sport that consists of falling.

So the "fix" I came up with was to keep the second section of the List for people like Jurgen and all the others who died outside the act of BASE jumping. They were, after all, our friends and not to be forgotten no matter how they met their ends . . .

NickD

nick, brother, comrade, come back and take the list back. I ask you

but that is not a BASE fatality because it has nothing to do with the dangers of the sport. A heart attack on the hike up would not be due to BASE. BASE is not what makes driving dangerous. BASE is however the reason why you would be on an exit point and therefore if you slip and fall, your death is then caused by a danger that is directly associated to the jump. Im of the opinion that if you died because of something inherent to a BASE jump, then BASE is the cause of your death and if that is the case then it should in fact be considered a "BASE fatality"... if a dude played russian roulette at the exit point and blew his brains out, he did not die because of BASE.

Second. I go there to not only think about what killed jumpers, but also to learn from them, remember them, and miss them, and be sad for them.

I know it must be exceedingly hard for you. I would like you to take the reigns again for the BFL. But I totally understand why you wont.

I vote he should be included in the list. But, as already pointed out, it's a difficult question.

Since he slipped at the exit point I consider it a clear-cut BASE accident. BASE jumping brought him to that spot, BASE jumping put him in a more dangerous environment than he otherwise would have encountered, and thus I consider it a BASE death worthy of being on the list.

But......what if he'd slipped into the river you cross five minutes before reaching this exit? Then would it be a BASE death? What if he'd been hit by a car while walking back after the jump? What if he'd been eaten by a mountain goat while hiking to the exit?

I believe a BASE jump starts the moment you put your rig on and start hiking. It ends only once you're back in a normal, day-to-day setting (the local pub, your car, the campground, the hotel, home, etc.). Thus a fatal car accident on the way to the object would not be a BASE fatality. But exposure to the elements after a jump would be a BASE fatality, just as drowning while running from the rangers after a jump would be.

Not that this classification stuff matters. Dead is still dead, whether it's classified by the living as a BASE death or not.

Not a BASE fatality. He died hiking to an exit point. He had not donned his gear and had made no attempt at a BASE jump at that stage.

Skydiving was mentioned in this thread. Imagine you are walking to the plane and there is no ladder or steps to get into the aircraft. You attempt to jump up and slip, hit your head on the edge, and die. No matter which way you cut it, it is not a skydiving fatality.
You are in an aircraft intending to do a skydive. The plane crashes. You die. This is not a skydiving fatality either. Why? Because you have not actually commenced the act of skydiving.

Where does the jump start? For me, jumping started very early in my childhood - I dreamed of flight. I wanted to fly. And various events in my life led me to jumping. My jumping life was shaped by many other aspects of my life. If I had of died in any of these stages, should I then have been considered a jumping fatality? No! You have to commence the physical act of jumping before you can be considered as a jumping fatality.

However, other factors both prior to and after a jump are very useful for jumpers to consider in their overall application of safety and personal risk management. Slipping on ice, climbing a rock ledge or tower, walking away after a landing, personal psychology, etc. As they could all lead to an incident.

If you fall off an antenna and die whilst climbing it - you are an antenna climbing fatality.

If you have a car crash on the way to or from a jump - you are a road accident fatality.

The fatality should be defined in the moment in which it occurs - not by the intended activity.


A BASE jump starts . . . . . in a different place and time for each person. Whilst definitions can be made, it will vary between individuals.

another BASE-related fatality. I broke my leg climbing a tall fence to make an antenna jump. I do not call it a BASE injury, but a BASE-related injury. I hit a cow in my car going 50 mph coming back from a BASE jump. It's a BASE-related accident.

Just for interest, let's consider the Beech stall in Hawaii. Beech stalled on climbout. Some people exited and lived. Some people exited later and died. Some people never exited.

How do you classify the fatalities that exited too low?

I tend to agree with Tom, with his categories too.

The only situation I see is when you climb / hike and your rig opens (by getting stuck), you are pulled of the object and you don't survive. Most likely to happen on A's I guess.

Ronald

geared up and toes off is a BASE jump

My buddy landed on a cow once, when he fell off it, he broke his back. His, not the cow's.

As I remember, the fatality in question was not geared up but was still hiking to the exit point with everything still in the stashbag.