Basejumper.com - archive

 

Neither....

Neither politicians nor gov't organizations have ever proven themselves trustworthy. I would not trust either of them, and just go with they're all lying to cover their asses or to get out with the least possible damage.

I totally agree. That's why I've never voted. You can't trust any of the campaign crap, so you don't know who you're really voting for anyway. It's just like rolling the dice for your president. I'd hate to have some fuckhead elected that I voted for.

Vote from the rooftops

Or a grassy knoll, whichever you prefer.

I believe the CIA in this instance.... but consider that the unspoken rule of any organization is selfperservation....

 

First question: because she's a politician, and they don't actually care about anything until the public finds out. I mean, sure it sucks and she's lame as hell, but how many other like her or in similar positions are just as shady, crooked, stupid and not capable of good decisions? probably most. SO instead of caring too much about politics I usually just ignore them completely and go with the default opinion that "they're guilty, just like everyone else."

Second question: Their logic is sound. If it's part of an ongoing process they should in no way be released. If those get released, then why not all ongoing trial photos and evidence?

 

My nation is not politics. It's that simple for me. Obama is not America. Bush was not America. They are Americans, elected into a position of power. I don't see how politics becomes a nation so easily to some people.

I also don't quite get where you're going with that. I am not one of those "rocky road" type of people that thinks one action will domino effect into total chaos. I mean, the last time people really believed that we got involved and/or started the Vietnam war.

One act such as that that has been brought to light will not lead to martial law. But if that did happen? No, I would not live under martial law. I would join the resistance and die for my nation. Because that would no longer be America.

But that's still not really politics. So I don't get what caring about politics has to do with caring about my nation.

+1. Well said.

I'm more interested in what the actual President knew! why did the"Decider" permit these techniques? without his consent, the rest of the discussion could never arise.

why all the discussion about a bit player? it seems like a way to distract from the main topic. it is far easier to bash the lame Pelosi than to have an actual debate on the actual acts (and the whether or not it constituted torture.)

plucking a few leaves off a weed rarely does much good. it never gets to the core problem. same with all the Pelosi talk.

it reminds me of the years before 9/11... the nation chose NOT to discuss the threat posed by bin Laden. rather the politicians enjoyed spending $50-60 million proving a guy likes to get his dick sucked. (smart money?)

we are only given so much time on the planet, why waste it on side issues? does Pelosi really rate as your top political priority?


politicians are like magicians, distracting you with one hand, so you fail to notice the other. the unnoticed hand always is doing something far more significant than the "show" hand! (and unfortunately, the easiest way to capture the public's attention is via fear mongering! <sigh>)

 

bla bla bla who cares what the spooks are doing?
I say, Don't ask, don't tell.

I dont see any politicians trying to shame the fkunicg rag heads who cut off our guys heads.

You cant be a politician and call someone a liar.

you seem to either miss a key point or are intentionally avoiding it.

if you were serious about determining responsibility, start with those responsible. start at the top. start with the president.

compared to the Commander in Chief, the Speaker of the House IS a "bit player."

 

The only thing I got from that was that a nation has to have a government, not that a nation IS a government. A coelomate has to have a spine, but it is not a spine.

The thing about America is that it's more an idea than anything else. It gives us a sort of euphoria of freedom while restraining those freedoms. My nation restrains those as little as possible. I like the original documents of America, the ones that weren't signed, that the founding fathers dreamed up.

If we had gone with those, slavery would have been abolished as soon as the nation was formed.

But then slave states had to join in order for us to even have a chance of winning.

That's why I don't care about politics. People will sign over other peoples freedoms in order to free themselves. People are mean, cruel, corrupt or corruptable squeely little worms.

Fuck definitions, my nation is a land mass of some of the most beautiful terrain I've ever seen. I love my nation. Sometimes I hate my government and the people who enable it. Which, since I voted, includes myself. :( Because politics is just deciding between a douche and a turd. Pelosi=douche, CIA=turd.

 

I love you

Tizzy it almost seems like you don't even have a side on this, you just enjoy poking people with a stick and seeing how riled up they get.

I love you

Ditto

Did you have such righteous indignation when the Republicans passed the Patriot act? (Many certainly believe that act rolled back freedoms.)

Did you feel such outrage when the Commander In Chief requested Congress authorize war, as a negotiation tactic and then failed to negotiate?

or do you just feel that way now that the Democrats are in control?

ALL politicians lie.
many have said the world is ending. they all have been wrong.
y2k? right...
don't let the fearmongering, lying policians manipulate you.

(I'd still like answers to those 3 questions!)

I think my statement to GG is rather clear on my opinion of Pelosi's daily turnabouts.

In case you failed to read it, let me repeat.

"Which goes back to the question, if Pelosi knew and approved of it, then just say so and move on. Stop with the politics of pandering to groups and show some ballz. She's the damn Speaker of the House, not a Miss America contestant."

Why is telling the truth and having convictions you stand by a lost virtue?

And as I pointed out earlier it would appear her calls for a truth commission has led her down a path that the White House isn't willing to walk with her.

Is that clear enough for you Dave and your man love Green?

Is that clear enough for you Dave and your man love Green?

I did not ask you any questions.

Your thoughts on politics do not interest me.

I agree with Annibal that all politicians lie and
it saddens me that so many American voters
are childish that to be elected a politician has
to lie, very sad indeed, and this is coming from
someone who has worked in & around politics.

As for Dave and I, and ALL of the brave men
and women who BASE jump, we share meals,
trips, beer, and amazing adventures so they
are real cool, special kinds of friends.

Give ya an example, typically people give each
other five, shake hands, bump fists, etc. before
jumps, I was on a plane sitting near a guy who I
do not like and he does not like me, we still did
the exchange and said have a good jump...

Those of us who jump and have seen people die
know this is real shit and could end at anytime.

 

 

Poke, poke, poke, poke

The military, police, and firefighters all deserve
our respect for risking their lives for our safety!

The Declaration of Independence, Constitution,
and Bill of Rights are part of what makes this
one of the best nations on earth.

As for politicians, for some reason many of the
American voters want to hold the humans who
hold elected office to standards that most of us
could not live up to... as in never having done
drugs, pre-martial sex, told an off color joke,
had a DUI, and so on, hence they are almost
forced to lie to get elected - sad, very sad.

.
... " an election is always between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich, because they're the only people who suck up enough to make it that far in politics."
South Park, episode 808
.

I guess I missed the answer to my questions.
can you point out the answers?


you miss a key point, I agree with Annibal and do not trust politicians of either stripe. thus I lack righteous indignation.

you seem to ooze it toward the current administration. I asked my questions to see where you are coming from. it seems very odd that you express so much contempt for Pelosi and none for Bush. heck earlier, you said Pelosi "approved" the CIA actions. she never has had such authority. afterall, the CIA is part of the Administrative branch of the government.

Nixon inherited Vietnam from the other party.
Obama inherits Iraq from the other party.
honorable people serve at the whim of the current president.

as there is nothing new, I'm not surprised. I've seen it unfold before. it's how the system works (not necessarily how I'd like it to work).

you bring the passion of a jilted lover who suddenly realizes they were deceived. I'm trying to understand why...

 

You say that like you feel waterboarding is bad? I am sure you have readup on it, but the person being waterboarded does not die, they only feel they will. Its all psychological.

I could have (you) do exercises and pretty much get you to tell me your secrets with a little motivation.

Who's to say that we dont do this to certain Soldiers to train them to become mentally and psychologically stronger? Not that I know if they do, or could admitt to it.

I personally feel that the news is making a moutain out of nothing (a mole hill). If these techniques don't kill or injure the enemy combatants, and it makes yours and my country safer, then damn it whats the issue?

There is a ton of evidence that the Bush team manipulated CIA data to justify invading Iraq. If true that means lies lead to the deaths of many brave Americans.

That doesn't bother you?

I also remember when an undercover CIA agent was compromised. The Prez got on tv, outraged. He felt the national security was compromised. He said his administration would fully cooperate with the investigation. He said any found guilty would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

After a bunch of inquiries, delays, legal arguments, the man who made those strong statementes commuted the sentence of the only person convicted of anything!

there ya go...
two incidents where the Commander in Chief was at odds with the CIA and lied. yet you still only want to question Pelosi? No outrage for the person in authority?

or how about the Republican Congressman that is on video saying the CIA tells Congress the truth. there is a video of him saying the opposite following the 9/11 attacks. got any rancor for him?

no. you seem happy attacking a second tier player who had little control over CIA activity, while ignoring the people who HAD authority...

it appears you only find incompetent politicians amongst the Democrats... you seem incredibly partisan. that is your right.

(I also suspect if I had made the comments regarding feminine appearance that you have made about Pelosi, you would jump down my throat. they are the same sort of inappropriate comments about which you revile Green. sexist, racist, cultural, etc.)

i have a hard time believing the CIA in this case. Richard Cheney did some unprecedented, secretive (even by CIA standards), and potentially illegal things in influencing actions of that agency in intelligence interpretations, policies, and briefings. High level members of the executive branch had never before personally visited and intimidated intelligence analysts to provide the required conclusions, but that is what happened through Cheney. Cheney had lost respect for that agency when during the conclusion of the first gulf war, the U.S. discovered an embryonic and primitive nuclear material separation program. The separation method is known as electromagnetic separation and mimics what the U.S. did initially during the WWII Manhattan project with Calutrons, built at the Y-12 plant at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Oak Ridge, TN - a closed and essentially secret city until 1955. Cheney's threat of gaseous diffusion efforts by Hussein were ridiculous simply because the gaseous diffusion plant in Oak Ridge (known as K-25) is the largest building in the world, spanning from 1000 feet by 2500 feet by 60 feet. I am convinced that the CIA under direction from Richard Cheney (and breaking CIA protocol and federal guidelines) deliberately misled, misstated, and underrepresented the CIA SERE and "enhanced interrogation techniques" to Congress based on his past actions of influence.

I'm with leroy on this one. As long as we are not physically hurting these people and it is making our country safer. Who the hell cares?

This is just another damn topic that the damn media is blowing out of proportion cause they need something to talk about. Just like they did with the damn swine flu. I swear the media runs the country more than the government does! Cause people vote and react to what they hear in the media.

Which is even more sad because the media is a business. It's like going to Bridgestone tires for your political views or current events knowledge.

I am against torture, but like everything else that means jack shit. It has supposedly gotten us intell that has saved lives. I am pro choice but I still think abortion IS murder. I also hate children so whatever. This is why I don't care about politics. Because people are always telling me to choose between one or the other, and I always think "wow, how infantile. The world, humans, nothing is just one thing or the other."

Politics just tries to make simplistic an utterly chaotic society. And me not caring will not influence events. Me caring wont influence events. So if it's more annoying to me to care, why should I? This thread is a prime example of why I usually try to stay away.

Hopeless.

because it further justifies treatment of our own soldiers and agents of the U.S. to be treated similarly by opposing governments. That is why rules of war were adopted. Flame throwers and hollow point bullets are not allowed, for example.

i agree somewhat with your opinion, but from a practical standpoint, the information is not reliable. do you think John McCain's confessions were reliable during his years of torture by the VietCong? The U.S. already knows how to extract information reliably without screwing up the info quality through torture.


how do you know it does not do physical damage? inhaling water can result in pneumonia. also, a physician may attend these events in case of actual drowning.

and at what point does this opinion start being applied to U.S. citizens who are deemed criminals before a trial is even administered? For example, Jose Padilla was held for years without trial and may have been psychologically tortured, while U.S. prosecutors kept changing the charges against him. I have no idea of any of those Gitmo guys actually had anything to do with terrorist activity. I love my country but I don't trust my government.

At what point does the executive branch restrain themselves? For example, does the president have the right to have a U.S. citizen tortured or killed if he suspects that person might be dangerous? There is no logical restraint to stop such an expansion of authority given such logic.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.


Martin Niemöller was a German pastor and theologian born in Lippstadt, Germany, in 1892. Niemöller was an anti-Communist and, for that reason, supported Hitler's rise to power – at first. But when Hitler insisted on the supremacy of the state over religion, Niemöller became disillusioned. He became the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. Unlike Niemöller, they gave in to the Nazis' threats.

Hitler personally detested Niemöller and had him arrested and eventually confined in the Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps. Niemöller was released in 1945 by the Allies. He continued his career in Germany as a clergyman and as a leading voice of penance and reconciliation for the German people after World War II.

His poem is well-known, frequently quoted, and is a popular model for describing the dangers of political apathy, as it often begins with specific and targeted fear and hatred which soon escalates out of control.

that's cool. but I'm going flying.


not saying there is anything that can't be accomplished by an internet forum, I'm just lazy.

when the revolution starts, sign me up.

whoa... whoa... whoa... I didn't mean to get into a political conversation. I hate talking politics.

Although you do actually have some pretty good points. It is true that we cant do something and then expect them to not do it to us. That should also work both ways. It does seem that we are more worried about obeying the rules of war then most anyone that opposes us.

Who actually decides what is considered torture. Could most any forms of Interrogating not be considered torture? Where is the line drawn? If we listen to some people. Interrogation will consist of putting the person up in a 4 star hotel and only asking them questions when they feel like they are ready to answer them. Cause forcing someone to sit in a room for long periods of time and then bombarding them with accusations and questions is uncomfortable or even painful. right?

Well maybe my view on things is dumb. That is just my point of view.

Same here.