Basejumper.com - archive

I thought I would post a question that has been bothering me for 4 years. I don't profess to be anywhere near BASE standards yet but BASE is THE reason I got involved with skydiving, and wingsuit flight!
Ill be honest; I merely have 65 jumps, that will rapidly increase as I have recently got together my own rig and gear saving on renting from the DZ. This means nothing until I make the required jumps I know but I aim to hit the 200 mark this year.
This leads to my question: I see BASE gear manufacturers offering courses to newbies with 200 skydives off a bridge. I will go on this course but cant see myself let alone anyone being ready for BASE with a mere 200 skydives. I don't intend this to mean any offense to anyone in the community but how can a mere 200 skydives mean anything in BASE?
Sure I would feel comfortable jumping from a nice high span at around 200 but spans aren't the be all and end all in BASE. What happens when I visit terminal walls in Norway or Italy? Being a UK jumper I have come to accept that most objects are very low, i.e around the 250ft mark. I have spoken to a friend and he states that I should not consider BASE till I have got a minimum of 500 skydives under my belt, focusing on BASE specific training. I can understand this and honor his sound advice.
I was just wondering about the whole ethic side of things and what most experienced BASErs consider an acceptable amount of skydives before one goes looking for a mentor, getting on a FJC etc? I am not after the minimum amount of skydives necessary to get on a course as I wish to stay in BASE as long as I can, but more the recommended amount by BASE jumpers experienced with this question. Im hoping that Mentors will reply with first hand experience really. I can understand that most people cant reply due to not seeing me skydive but I will give a rough resume based on my Log book:

I consider myself a centered jumper that always goes through his reserve drills in his head before boarding and before exiting. I check all toggles likewise.

Once exited I check my heading and start to track... I have been developing a stronger track with every jump and think I have reached a very proficient standard. I will jump with a coach to see what he thinks to confirm.

I am always altitude aware and come pull time I practice rear riser avoidance manouvres followed by a steady and proven flight path to landing point. I try to land within 10 sq ft but am getting within 30 everytime now. I also switch my landing point up to prevent getting used to ground references.
Thats what I do on most jumps ( I have one fun jump out of every 10 i.e. I don"t track)

I hope this helps get a little reference of my ideas and training and look forward to hearing the comments!

Thanks

i started with 35 skydives by jumping from a 600 foot cliff back in 1992. not recommended though. learn CRW, flat turns, and accuracy. And do this over and over and over until you can master your big 7 cell canopy.

I had 400 skydives (3 years ago), I wish I waited till I had a 1000. Any Monkey can jump stable, but once the canopy opens up it another story.

Kevo

Thanks for your comments so far guys. 460 shall I skydive the big 7 cell I intend to BASE when I get up to those standards?

Kevin; When you say you wish you had 1000 is that purely because of time need under canopy? I can appreciate what you are saying about jumping stable, my goal is to give myself the biggest chance by learning the most efficient track to get as far away from the object as possible (altitude permitting of course) from then I guess it is experience under canopy and that is what I wish to train for whilst skydiving.

Thanks!

I think it's important to remember, along with what 460 says, you can pick up bad habits from skydiving that don't apply well in BASE. Remember what you are training.

Yes if you have any potential to jump into smaller landing areas which are probably a more sustainable way to have excitement than jumping off shorter objects.

With modern skydiving canopies in no-wind conditions the glide is pretty flat until you get close to a stall, so sport accuracy is mostly built about flying an accurate pattern, minor changes to the turns to vary distance + altitude used, and energy management for where you stop flying (this is more critical when there are obstacles like trees and boulders in place of nice grass on the other side of the target).

Most of the time you're familiar with the landing area + winds aloft so it's relatively easy to get it right, you're in trouble if the winds change too late in the game, and the landing target is surrounded by a wide open field so there isn't much pressure you have to deal with.

Classic accuracy is flown with fat seven cells which have a huge range in glide ratio with a reasonable setup (modern sport canopy experience helps here) followed by the real game which is about adjustments on final approach (sport main experience won't help since this is more like flying a Paracommander round). The idea is to get to where you're approaching a point 15 feet past the target at a 45 degree angle which is 2/3 brakes in no-wind conditions. This leaves plenty of room to get more penetration if the wind picks up and to stop short of obstacles beyond the target if you're going to be a bit long. Getting closer you go to 3/4 brakes to use up the height you had in reserve in case you needed it to get more distance. You add more brakes to finish on the target. The big parachute means you have a lot of drag, so you can land comfortably with a flare from 3/4 brakes or more even in short stable sink straight down (you don't want to do that from too high up if you're not landing on a tuffet or pea gravel)

It works regardless of whether you know what landmarks look like at various altitudes, how the winds from the three converging canyons change as you get lower, and avoids unnecessary stress since you know you can stop before any obstacles or get extra reach to avoid landing short.

The straight down sink is an important tool and practice is needed to feel where it is. Too little toggle and you still have forward speed; too much and you drop backwards with an increased descent rate. It's a little like working the clutch with a manual transmission.

It'll take less toggle to get there in a slider up configuration (the guide rings act like pulleys, so movement to the sides also adds brakes) than slider down, so you want to learn by feel.

I started BASE jumping after 800-900 skydives with enough sport accuracy skills to consistently put my Stiletto 120 into the pea gravel. It didn't translate well enough under a Fox 245 to avoid long landings running into trees or short ones ending on a hill side that could have been painful so I spent $700 on an old J7 (built for mains to 288 square feet, and fine with free packed 225s).

I ended up using what I learned when a Muppet I jumped with had a cliff strike, I was paying more attention to him laying on the ground when I got to the landing area with no outs than landing in it, and ended up flying a very steep approach in the remaining piece so I wouldn't run into trees or land down a steep hill on boulders.

a couple thoughts for you.
first there's no set golden # of jumps. start base when you feel ready. i felt ready with well over 2000 skydives. mostly mentally than skill wise but that's as relevant if not more.
second, don't be confused that after your fjc your ready to jump anything out there. completing a fjc is just the very beginning. add objects as you and your fellow locals feel you are ready. completely disregard what anyone else did and when in their early base days. everyone is unique and has their OWN learning curve. accept yours and you wont put your self in bad situations by biting off more than you can chew.

some people are ready for base with less than 50 jumps some are not ready with 1000. you decide whats right for you and feel good about that decision.

 i had 3500 skydives before my first base jump. i think you should focus on skydiving for quite a while, this includes downsizing canopies when you're ready. remember if you can fly the shit out of a velo with a high wing loading, you can damn well put a 7 cell where you want it... also, crew is alot of fun and it teaches you how to fly a canopy.

I have to disagree with your statements on the usefullness of flying an accurate pattern on regular sport mains vs classic accuracy for BASE landing skills.

Flying an accurate pattern (and being able to work out what the pattern should be from opening) is far more important than being able to sink in a classic accuracy approach that pounds you into the regular BASE landing area rather a soft tuffet.

Sinking is important too, but it is better to be able to assess your situation before exit, on opening and during your flight to decide or correct your pattern so as to get to land where you like.

I really think learning the abilities required to land a small crossbraced canopy safely and accurately are more useful on the average BASEjump than those required to do classic accuracy.

some people are ready for base with less than
50 jumps (and) some are not ready with 1000

I completely agree!!

There are really great guys I have SKY jumped,
drank beer with, who have over 1,000 jumps,
and were on world record skydives who KNOW
they have no business OR interest in exiting
lower than 3,000 feet.

However, personally, unless you are some sick
gifted genius at flying a parachute... BASEing
after only being under a wing 50 times seems
crazy to me.

Problem is, and you know this from psychology, that if everyone is about average... why do we all think we are above average?

[quote
Problem is, and you know this from psychology, that if everyone is about average... why do we all think we are above average?

my girlfriend told me i was well above average.

my reference was to people coming to base from other parachute related sports like paragliding, speed flying ext.. sometimes they don't have any skydives at all.

also there's just something about actual professional athletes from other sports that makes them take to base and all sports very quickly with little to no skydives. its their body awareness, ability to think clearly under fire, and being familiar with going past their comfort level. they are able to learn by doing better than any johnny skydiver.

i see it a lot doing aff at the dz. the best students ive ever had have been rock climbers, and oddly enough motocross riders. skydiving wasn't that "crazy" to them so their ability to think clearly allowed them to cruise through the program with total grace.

Best advice I can give is if you ever think "this will probably work" that's the cue for "fuck this". As with every base jump, you might die, and if you are doubting that it will work, at all, it's not worth it. I've thought "this is probably going to work" a hand full of times and about half the time something went wrong. All of the times I was lucky I didn't die or get messed up bad.

That said, I say start learning about gear, buy the base canopy you want, and skydive that until you feel like you know everything about it and how it flies. Then you're ready for an FJC from a bridge with a nice landing area. Decide on other objects based off your experience.

Funny, she told me the same thing!!!
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I have thought that for almost every jump I have done. There is always some question to whether this will work, it just depends how probable the probably is. All my jumps so far have had a really high probability of success, ie high enough, good conditions, and big LZ, spare one or two, but there is always a chance it can go bad.

 i knew that whore was taking trips to russia.

I've watched skydivers with 10,000 jumps who knew plenty about accurate patterns fly a conventional skydiving approach, overshoot a 50' landing area, and end up in trees.

Where people with that much experience can't consistently make a conventional skydiving approach work it's the wrong tool for the job.

Your steep classic accuracy approach is more flexible and still going to produce a nice gentle stand up landing under a BASE canopy at accepted wing loadings when you flare from 3/4 brakes.

If you really want to drop the last few feet that will also produce a stand up landing.

The Air Force Academy seems to do OK landing cadets with a couple hundred jumps into stadiums. EIFF claims that 100 jumps are enough to get to pro-rating standards of 10 of 10 jumps into 10 meters.

While a 30' drop without a crash pad is a bad idea that doesn't invalidate the hundreds of feet of steep approach that go with it.

The accuracy sink looses the most altitude for the space used, both forwards (so you're not going to overshoot) and sideways (you don't have that much room in narrow canyons). While it's better to avoid situations where you need to do it, it's a useful survival skill without a good substitute


I like flying small parachutes between wind blades too.

While the theory is similar (fit your final approach into the space you have) you have grossly different performance standards and acceptable tools once you get below 300-600+ feet.

When skydiving the effects of missing pro-rating standards by 10' rarely does anything worse than getting you wet or headed to the liquor store for crossing the beer line. It's entirely appropriate to use harness and both front risers in various combinations to get you where you want to be with the most speed you can retain because carrying that speed past the landing area won't hurt you.

When BASE jumping just getting close often means contact with obstacles. You want better chances of getting to your target with no residual speed and will do better exploiting the canopy's wide range of glide ratios in an unaccelerated configuration. Where tree-hugging or other object love is unavoidable because you screwed up you want less kinetic energy. You get all that with the classic accuracy approach.

 

 didn't get that one... please elaborate

spectacularly put!

Again, I agree, Paragliders have been under a wing
many times and understand how to fly a canopy.

Also your bit about people who have a stronger and
more extreme athletic background are much easier
to teach... even as tandem passengers you see the
big difference between a chunky cubicle worker
versus say a fit firefighter.

You are unique and special
just like everyone else!

I had 1400 skydives befor i made a base jump

I started BASE with 24 skydives. I shattered my left foot (much metal and pain to this day) on my 2nd jump and bounced for a couple hundred feet down a big wall in Mexico on my 9th jump.

Between my 11th and 12th BASE jumps was 2 years and 2 weeks. I made 300 skydives before I started to BASE again. And yeah, I jumped a RAVEN II for all those skydives and could land it anywhere.

Be careful. Good luck.

I agree....started BASE after 28 skydives,but play in other sports that can hurt you for failing the IQ test. One thing that i think can't always be taught is Humility.
Damnnn that BASE packing thing sure did overwhelm me for a few days... TOM ; )

gary begley
www.garybegleysports.com

i think jumping a raven or a base specific canopy as your main is the best idea if your skydiving to base. why bother wasting time dialing in a canopy that doesnt fly like a base canopy.

I started with very few skydives as I posted before. I made 133 BASE jumps and then shattered my femur simply because I didn't know how to fly my canopy properly. CRW, accuracy, and FLAT TURNS in particular are critical for landing skills. I suggest you find a patient mentor to guide you since exits and dealing with weird openings can be pretty hard to deal with. Also, realize that if you jump a 260 foot canopy, your 2 to 1 aspect ratio canopy is 22 feet wide! I've had to land in areas just slightly larger than this.

Didn't you fall off a fence that surrounds one of those texas giants about seven...eight years ago??
Damn, that sounds too low for even a d.bag!

ha! that's what i told the police and the ER people and the insurance people. a raunchy fiction story involving women sliding down a banister. raunchy and therefore plausible to the law.

I am so pleased with the advice guys! I have seen a load of newbies post a question up and get flamed, I was a little worried about the responses but am overwhelmed with the warm welcome so thanks! I have been researching base for a long while now and realise that I know nothing at all and will carry on researching gear, canopies, techniques... just as much as my mind will soak in, have a rest and carry on researching! Ill have a look around for some Base specific books also!

I have had a think and come up with a plan that I intend to stick to it goes like this:

Enjoy skydiving and keep practicing the tracks and fly my new safire 169 until I hit the 200 mark and obtain my C license.

From then I will source a nice big container to fit a 245 base specific canopy in; Im thinking of a student Javelin or something along those lines. I doubt I will be able to find such a large container to fit my body but can always look around and if the container comes up then ill snap it up! In terms of wing loading I weigh 154lbs naked and have been told to add 100 and round up to the next canopy; should I therefore go bigger than a 245?

I will learn to land my Base canopy anywhere I want focussing on flat turns, avoidance manouvers, riser inputs, stall points... just as much as I possibly can until I feel comfortable to go on a FJC.

From then I am going to exercise the best judgement that I can, find a mentor and progress at my own pace.... returning to skydiving to keep currency and because I enjoy it!

My only problem is whether or not to buy my base canopy now and do a hop and pop every few jumps to keep my mind on the base side of things and to not pick up bad habits.

Thanks so much everyone!

 i weigh 155 with no gear and found the 260 too big. i load my 245 around .68 and that seems perfect for me. i think too low a w/l makes landing super close to the object way harder. and this is a common landing in so many objects. in 200 jumps ive never had to fly and fly to a landing area so i prefer a w/l i can put down tight and quick. plus at .68 i can still sink it in with little to no flare comfortably.
food for thought.
you can always buy a raven in the 200 sq' range for skydiving if you cant find a conatiner to fit a bigg ass 245 plus canopy. they pack up hella small. it would even fit in your current set up for the saphire if you dont use a freebag and just do hop n pops. save the money for good base gear.
jeff

dont forget sinking that fucker in! its going to be the backbone of sticking your accuracy in base.

ok ill shut the fuck up now.
peace

Try and get good at those flat and stable turns under 250'. Don't scare the crap out of everyone at your DZ. But low turns are part of the game. Oh yeah, Ravens kick ass, but they are kinda ground hungry whilst turning, FYI.

I disagree

don't forget to hang around the riggers/packers. learn as much as possible about gear and packing.