Basejumper.com - archive

 

Wow thanks regis! where can i pick up a baser they sounds sweet and totally what I want from a skydiving rig. I want to pack my velo in it so i can pull low at 2000' feet like all of the cool base rebels

I really don't get this. why do you have such antagonism with Sonic?

- more people are concerned about rampant internet videos than Sonic. where's the outcry there?

- is there ANY credible "BASE FJC" that fails to tell people that then need to learn more? including Sonic's?

- do women avoid MALE ob-gyn's because they "don't understand" and thus lack credibility?

personally, I like to reward Todd, Marty, and other long term participants. they have been making gear for years. I really doubt any manufacturer makes loads of money, so I'd rather help ensure the survival of those who have given back.

the long term folks ought to get financial credit for creating modern, safe gear, just as a photographer should receive credit for their work. (true JumpShack has been around much longer, but they didn't choose to serve BASE. they cut their deal with Sonic.)

but maybe my opinion is not valid either. I've never used a sewing machine, so what do I know about gear?

base jumpers have incredibly fragile egos. it's strange given how in almost every other aspect of their lives, they live as rugged individualist.

lol, GOLD

 

I don't see why that would matter. the quality of my argument should be based on logic, not provenance.


it doesn't. unfortunately, you are NOT questioning. you are mocking, IMHO. that is a big difference.


but the videos are amping folks up. that jacked up audience appears to be Sonic's target market. thus, the people posting videos are enabling Sonic.

or put it simpler... if there were no videos -> no Sonic.

once you accept the videos are available, it seems reasonable that someone would eventually try to serve that niche market. it just turned out to be Sonic.


how about "I'd like to base my opinion on facts, not emotion?"


flawed question. most coaches in other sports NEVER were successful in their chosen activity. Bela Karolyi coached Nadia, Mary Lou, and others to tremendous success. I really doubt the man ever participated in WOMEN's gymnastics.

so I gave you an example of why I feel your question is flawed.

please provide an example where instructing/coaching is restricted to skilled particpants ONLY. (I really don't think most golf "pros" EVER played on the PGA tour...)


I agree with most of your comments, although I failed to see them in the mock interview.

most jumpers currently test their new gear while jumping an object. it seems entirely reasonable that being able to test a rig from a safer, more familiar environment enhances safety.

but the cost of that increase in safety may well mean more participation of marginal jumpers.


again, I agree, and I failed to see that point in the mock interview.

to build on an earlier post, I enjoy the encyclopedic gear knowledge that I have found when talking to Todd and Marty. (not to slight others). I intend on financially supporting them, or others of similar merit. it is my best interest to ensure they remain accessable.

unfortunately, too many americans let convenience outweigh quality. they choose companies that pander to them. they want to be lead by a guru.

if Sonic tells actual students that his class is the be all and end all regarding BASE, I'd be VERY skeptical. it sounds fraudulent.

if Sonic tells actual students that his course is only the first of a series that ought to be taken... well... he'd be right.

all I've heard about the course is marketing mumbo jumbo. I try to avoid getting too excited either way to course descriptions. I'm more concerned about the content than the packaging.

-----

now this is an example of having a discussion. tell me where I'm wrong and why. I have no problem with that. the mocking of the original post seemed only to amuse those that already agree with you. (it can also cause those who disagree to remain silent.)

if you are right, I think it's far better to persuade others to agree with you. you might even prevent an injury or two.

People keep using that analogy and its complete BS, BASE is not gymnastics. In gymnastics one can study human movement at a university, they can be trained by people that have been gymnastics coaches. In our case we have a mentorship program, which Sonic has completed none of.

While the question might be flawed in your view, in this case, it is not, it appears Sonic has about 11 base jumps and judging from videos I have seen some were not very successful.

Would you let Sonic teach an AFF course because he can read the lessons from a book but is in no way qualified, do you have children? Would you let Sonic teach your children to BASE jump?

BASE is a self regulated sport the most we can do is put pressure on idiots when they do stupid things and especially newbies (which Sonic is very much so) so that's what is happening.

I see the point of the mock interview, it asks the questions the original interviewer failed to ask and answers them with facts we know about the interviewee and should be known by all who are considering putting their lives in his hands.

as we have yet to establish WHAT he is teaching, I can not pass judgment on his qualifications. you must have missed this part:


the only way to truly change an individual's behavior is to convince him it is in his best interest. mocking and badgering is NOT motivation. it actually causes the target to become defensive and to stop listening.

...all from instructor 101.

p.s.
I would have loved to see a thoughtful actual interview by Tree. he has made and jumped his own gear. I'll give much respect for that.

unfortunately, he chose not to write that piece.

thus, a solid interview by a jumper is really not an option. it is like World Peace. I want it, but it appears unavailable.

Oh...you wanted me to interview the man and report false answers. In this mock interview, answering the questions for him, is not fact, it is fiction. It's also irresponsible and unfair to the individual.

A SNL spoof, maybe. Fact hardly. More like libel.

BTW, it was established prior to the interview that Sonic has only 11 jumps and if you read the set-up to the interview you would have learned that he is skydiving instructor. And also as stated in the interview, I asked the questions that were asked in the prior thread that were asked by BASE jumpers.

Just because you don't like the answers given, doesn't give you the right to question my work in this post or in the umpteen PM's you sent my way.

If you think you can do better, than do it. Do the work, invest the time and report based on the responses you were given to questions. I don't have time to play games.

BASE jumping. always has been.

i like the imaginary interview, Tree...

really?
are you serious?

1) I've read too many posts critical of this jumper or that jumper to believe all instructors are skilled.

2) there is nobody out there restricting who can instruct.

thus, we end up with 10 jumper wonders showing off exit points at LB.

-----

I know you can do better than that.

heck, nowhere in Sonic's syllabus does it even state that the student's will even make a BASE jump.

isn't he really teaching skydiving?

I think no one would have a problem at all with this if his course was called

"Introduction to single parachute systems, packing, and BASE specific deployment and piloting techniques while skydiving in preparation for an FJC"

In fact, if I ran an FJC, just that kind of thing would be an awesome prerequisite.

YES! he should be. in the event someone is dangerously under qualified to instruct like our friend Sonic people jump up and down. When someone dangerously under qualified starts making gear and charging money for his under qualified instruction, then marketing it to people who know no better, it gets beyond a joke.

tishy lish whatever, stop crying, you're not a jumper you didn't know what questions to ask, not your fault.

hm... Ive never really thought about it like that.

I know I am just a mere A.F.F student at the moment. But there must be someone interested in taking my FJC. I have seen people base jump, like the idea of base jumping, and I probably spend more time on this web site reading articles about base jumping Than anyone else(including wwarped). I'm pretty confident that I can help prepare people sufficiently for the world of base. Please let me know if you are interested in taking my next course. To do so please send me a 300 dollar up front reservation fee.

Thanks,
justin

haha Sorry i just couldn't stop my self from doing it. I will go back to lurking again.

Here's some questions for you James.

If this is sooooooo important to you and lives need to be saved.

Have you called Sonic? Written him an email? Have you considered talking to him about attending one of his seminars at a dropzone? Have you considered that by attending a seminar and acting like a mature adult with real insight, advice and suggestions that he might listen to you? Have you contacted Miles and asked him his thoughts of the BASER? on using it to teach his FJC's? Have you asked Sonic to demo a BASER? Have you done anything other then post jib, jabs?

Or is it not really that important and you rather just ridicule him on forums as if basejumper.com is a high school slambook.

Lives are at stake. Please don't waste your time commenting to me, when you could be doing something constructive to improve BASE, leaving it better off then when you came into it. Isn't that the whole point of being part of a community? Then again, what do I know, I don't jump.

question 1 - is the rig itself dangerous? I have found no conclusive evidence. Calvin seemed to think it was safe and well made. heck, the sentiment appears to be it is too heavy, i.e. massive overkill. so if he is "dangerously under qualified" to make gear, did he just get lucky?

question 2 - what do you call a FJC that lacks an actual jump?

answer - it is called marketing of a skydiving course.

I have yet to hear anyone say that Sonic is "dangerously under qualified" to teach skydiving.

-----
so, let's look at marketing...

do you really believe "Red Bull gives you wings?"

many companies want to feed off the buzz generated by BASE. they want to associate themselves with the excitement generated by internet videos.

why should Sonic be any different? he is no better or worse than other firms.

I'd tend to agree with you far more if an actual BASE jump became part of the curriculum.

as it is, I'm far more worried about the 10 jump wonders showing their friends. or even that genius in MN with his secret plan that included getting arrested.

"maybe my opinion is not valid either"



I AGREE-

yes, i'm serious.

first off, one on one mentoring is completely different than marketing a course to the entire world.

of course no one is restricting BASE instruction, but you would have to be a fool to knowingly agree to take a course with someone under-qualified. since you love these supposed parallel questions...

would you hire a home-less man who has never left the streets of new york to guide you to the top of mt everest?

there's no restriction. so good on you if you live and make it to the top.

also, 10 jump wonders showing off exit points again, is different much different than actively marketing instruction and history lessons.

furthermore, there's also no "restrictions" on instruction/coaching for skydiving outside of the USPA. so do you think it's a good idea because you "can" to teach skydiving with 50 jumps out of your own cessna on a private field?

in closing, i really don't care about the BASEr or Sonic's "FJC". i have the fortunate liberty of laughing at anything i want in this world, but i just feel sorry for the people it could hurt along the way.

I disagree with this line of thought for reasons already stated. Futhermore, think of it this way. Would you want someone that memorized a marksmanship manual to teach you how to shoot? How could he be effective? Would he be efficient in helping the person improve, I think not. I agree that it appears that sonic is teaching a skydiving intro to base jumping course... BUT come on, seriously, look at it. It is a BASE Rig that is obviously meant to bridge the gap between base and skydiving... Like it or not a lot of people feel it hits to close to home.



On the other hand I agree with you here... I think we have been to the same course, or seen the same quote....

 

But you're not worried because Sonic's course doesn't involve a jump.... many of the kind of people getting into base nowadays are the ones that have seen the videos and want a quick path to the base world, to them Sonic is perfect for that, even if he tells them on their course you shouldn't go out and base jump now do you really think that will happen. A hot headed young skydiver who has no business in base walks out of Sonic's course after spending a few grand on a rig and a coupla hundred on his course, you're now going to tell him he has to go and take another course for another coupla hundred or a grand thereabouts, and get a mentor before he "should" jump, but no one will stop him if he feels like taking that shiny new rig for a jump now. I mean he knows how to pack, he has a (dangerously) little bit of knowledge from Sonic's course. So he says screw it and goes out to find the local known object. If you think this wont happen you are dreaming, I believe it will happen in most cases from Sonic's students.

wwarped....you like to compare apples to oranges.

so riddle me this:

Who would you rather do an open heart surgery on you?

a. the indivudiual who has read an anatomy and physiology book from end to end and has worked as a CNA in the OR for 5 years?

or

b. a cardiac surgeon?

the argument you make is invalid. its not about his gear. Its about his experience.

you know very well you will not answer (a).

you compare gynmastics to BASE.

Thats the dumbest thing you've said all year.

Really its BASE jumping and skydiving that are the SAME...is that what you wanted to compare?

If you or anyone in your family needs and medical surgery I'll do it for alot less out of my garage for you. I mean really, whats the difference from me doing it than a Dr.?

I"ll give you a bro's deal

you expressed valid concerns.

and it appears we agree on several points. did I not say:


read the first paragraph in the quote. do you disagree that then the course would be a fraud?

I took a SBK "FJC" at Kjerag. a highly respected BASE jumper taught me. he emphasized it was basically a "how not to die" course designed for THAT site.

each year at BD, newbies are told to attend at a minimum the "how not to die" course.

neither are comprehensive and arm the student with a woeful lack of proper BASE information. where is the outrage against them?

YES. I am concerned with injuries and fatalities that come with unqualified jumpers. but what creates the biggest potential problem?

- Sonic and his course?
- any other limited "how not to die" course?
- jumpers who begin and continue jumping without a mentor?
- people who identify exit points on videos and go there on there own?
- people who just use skydiving rigs because they are readily available?

no. too many paths already exist for newbies desperate to jump. if they have more money than common sense, they find a way. they already easily bypass getting a qualified mentor. some will settle for ANY mentor, some will decide they don't need one. deaths and other ugliness will occur.

will Sonic's course contribute? possibly. so much will depend on what he says in the course. he could be a total dick to running a better course than most "how not to die" courses. I do not know.

I do know that adrenalized youTube junkies ARE finding their way into the sport already. they do pose a risk. no one wants to own up and take responsibility for contributing to the mayhem. it is so much easier to beat on Sonic without even knowing what he tells students.

it's like freaking out about a site being dangerous without even scouting it out...

people are getting so defensive, I must have struck a nerve...

do your realize NOBODY here is really debating facts? thus all the arguments based on conjecture?

my favorite comment is:


all people are commenting on is the course TITLE.

since he has NOT actually taught the course, no one can comment on the course CONTENT.

 

Weather he says that or not doesn't matter, he still isn't qualified to teach what he is teaching and he is marketing his course to skydivers at drop zones. The people you are talking about at least had to have the will to go and seek out courses. Then the courses were run by actual base jumpers, not someone with 11 base jumps and a financial interest in getting them to base jump.

Plus just because he tells them this is only the first stage, I'm sure he does, people especially newbie jumpers getting into it for the wrong reasons (which this course is marketed at)will follow the path of least resistance. The type of people going for this course will be the ones that haven't done the research and just feel base is a yippy "easy as in the movies" sport.....then they are taught by an 11 jump wonder.....great situation. At the end of the day, if someone has done their research they will almost certainly come across these forum posts, and who in their right mind would then go and take that course instead of taking a course from a jumper with experience and credibility.

there you go!

Instructors should:
- meet their students
- introduce themselves
- establish a rapport
- establish credibility

anyone who hears Sonic say "I'm Sonic. I'm a skilled rigger with only 11 BASE jumps..." will know he lacks credibility when it comes to jumping. or as YOU put it... anyone

the Darwin award candidates most endangered by delusions of grandeur have been finding ways into BASE already. I provided several that you apparently dismissed.


but WHAT is he teaching? please enlighten me.
no one seems to know, yet.

I'll happily agree that I would not want him taking a group to an object to jump. not qualified. agreed. I didn't see that in the syllabus...


I HAVE seen a respected, well known jumper taking a class to the bridge in ID. it was windy. many of the class had just smoked joints. I had maybe 30 BASE jumps. the respected course instructor turned to ME and asked about the winds...

unfortunately, crappy, insufficient instruction is NOT starting with Sonic.

but I digress...
WHAT is Sonic actually teaching?
if I knew, I might be quite upset as well.

i feel like criticizing someone. i don't know who i should inflict such criticism upon, but be WARNED, i will do it, so watch out jive turkeys!

So sad.

This formerly insightful BASE forum has degenerated into a corporate non-BASE jumping owned site, run by an anonymous moderator who seems to have several agendas that aren't within mainstream BASE, and supported by a plagiarist with no jumps at all who is working on becoming a writer by posting on a BASE forum.

Let me know if I missed anything.

i'm lurking a lot on here and am kinda busy translating some sort of incident reports to proper english (or, at least i try). the writer in question i've already had quite a couple of arguments about the very same topic.

what i'm missing is some sort of credit for taking one's own time and give the community something back, altough in my own case, and i can only really talk for myself, i'm not even a BASEjumper. skydiver yes, and a very eager one at that, as much as time and money allows me.

what i perceivve is a crowd that seems to be a whinging bunch of whusses with nothing but complaints.

i do agree on most of the majorites concerns tough. but the repeated bashing of people that are just critical, as the majority of this forum is, and what i appreciate, i find distressing. its a little different over on BLINC, not as fun and entertaining, but at least the flaming is down to a reasonable limit. and people are actually helpful..

kind of sad, put down others, but in no fucking way do something about the situation yourself. pretty-fucking-poor..

HA!...
+1...

I had seen his syllabus.
it says NOTHING about an actual BASE jump.
it also does NOT indicate what he will say...

if you want to speculate, I can as well...


that spiel satisfies the posted syllabus.
that spiel raises few safety concerns in my mind.

it's far safer than having a "name" consulting a 30 jump wonder about the safety of putting marijuana infused students off a bridge.

man oh man... ding ding.. round (11...?)

I feel like I've been one of the last holdouts, but C, this whole WEBSITE has jumped the fucking shark.

At Perris or at a boogie?

love it!

Highly entertaining post expressing an individual opinion on an important matter! Whether you agree with it or not, Nice work!

OK, .. Don't really know about all the whole Sonic, Baser, skydive BASE FJC thing but 'You' giving the Analogy of a BASE jumper paralleling to possible female opposition. To a Male giving clinical examination of the female sexual organs . Really fucking freakin me out. .. <| ; )
.