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I was taught that when you have a 180 and object strike is imminent, that you should go for the risers. However, I recently did an Sl from 175,' and I cleared the brakes fast enough to stall the canopy before it had hardly any to no forward flight, unintentionally. From watching the video I have little doubt that the canopy was stalled before it covered the distance that separated me from the object. From this it seems that toggles would be very effective in avoiding object strike, but I have not yet cleared my brakes before achieving forward flight in a freefall jump. So the question is, which do you use to avoid object strike in a close call, risers or toggles? I would also love to hear from anyone who has been able to stall a canopy in a freefall jump before achieving forward flight.

i stalled my Troll a few times on low freefalls before forward flight... because my DBS was so deep and a nice tailwind will cause a stall before i even reach up.

as far as the argument of risers vs. toggles... it's been beaten to death. just do whatever you think will save you and believe in yourself. because when a strike is imminent, you'll have no one else to help you.

 

agreed.

 
I vote risers. If you go toggles and don't make it, you're gonna wish you had left the toggles alone. In other words if a strike happens I'd rather have the toggles stowed. It's nice to have a canopy that responds well to risers (which mines does) but I hear some canopies don't.
Also it's easy to stall the canopy on a freefall jump before forward flight, given the right setup: short delay with slider gives you plenty of time to do it.

Thanks, thats what I wanted to know. I thought it may not be that difficult, but I have not really tried to clear the toggles that quickly as all my freefall jumps, spare BD, have been As in the 300-350' range with a descent tail wind.

While I'm a low experience object striker (only 1 strike, watch it here: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3187, this is the same cliff where someone died 2 weeks ago) and should leave voicing opinions to more seasoned strikers -- if there are any alive -- the words "when strike is imminent" caught my attention.

Whether your turn-around radius is shorter using risers or toggles, only you can find out by experimenting in safe conditions. But if strike is imminent-imminent, consider this:

- any of your command of the stall point ends when you strike the solid object. If you stall/turn quicker with your risers or toggles, it doesn't necessarily mean anything once your canopy is bumping its leading edge against the object. When this happens, the whole aerodynamics, trim, control, responsiveness, input forces, etc. change dramatically to present you with the "surprise" you've never experienced before and never had a chance to practice (and probably, never will unless somebody builds a 300ft rubber cliff with giant foam pit on the bottom). The canopy just wants to stay glued to the wall. Watch as many strike videos as you can and you'll see this. From the view point of air, is has no place to escape other than to rush to the tail, which by action-reaction principle automatically means tremendous drive towards the wall.

- any notion of the "stall point" you're used to while flying canopy in free air, suddenly disappears, as this drive and decreased air intake makes the canopy shrink nose to tail. The very situation -- both you and the nose bumping against the wall putting them on the same vertical -- effectively makes a heavy double front riser input. The trim changes to something that you have to learn in a few seconds you're left to live.

- once you're glued to the wall and luckily (as I was) still being able to fight, in my humble opinion -- again, I have only one data point in which I gathered this valuable information, so my advice bears no weight compared to advice of mucho strikers with hundreds of strikes under their belt -- using one riser with a very hard input on it -- as if your life depends on it, because it does -- to turn away is better than using one toggle, or both risers, or both toggles. Why? Using both risers or toggles to stall first and fly back from the wall is the next thing to impossible (I would love to see any video of symmetric fly-away-backwards) because your body is directly beneath A line attachment points -- you're putting almost all your weight on front risers already! When you use one toggle, it deflects only the tail, making that side of the canopy like a channel directing the airflow to the side of the canopy, and the canopy still stays glued to the wall. Also, the distance you can pull the toggle past the [meaning nothing now] stall point is very short. With a very hard pull on one riser, from as high as you can grab it to as low below your shoulder you can pull it, you make a canopy look like a propeller to the air, then there might be enough torque (if you're lucky) to turn the canopy around.

So when you consider which option is more efficient, you should also weigh in what is more efficient when you do strike the object.

Personally, I solved the dilemma the simple way: one very lucky day is already too much, I am no longer making any jumps where my life depends on heading. Fuck this shit!

Yuri

with advent of vents/valves, I will in future definitely go for risors as pressurization is instantaneous and functional wing same

that discussion come and goes every 2 years here!

Long story short!

You will find out what you prefer when it happen !!
All discussing about what and how is better while sitting in the chair is useless...

why I am saying this...
All the time jumpers training to have toggles in their hands ASAP after opening shock, many of them waiting for risers / toggles with open palms ( very wrong) ... so suddenly , they are sure , they will go for risers?! Let see that! Muscle memory is a bitch and sometimes screw you!

There is so many factors one every jump (delay, ariel, type of object...)which play aroundand making 100% decission close to impossible! On question like:what you will do?!
Answer can be more or less just our wishful thinking!!

Very interesting post about getting stuck to the wall.

Just wanted to throw the idea, and get opinions on a related note. What if there was a legal cliff, slider-down specific canopy that had your standard bottom skin vents and valves, but also had an airlocked closed nose? Just more interested in opinions on how it would open and fly, and react to a wall strike, than how hard it would be to run from the cops downtown.

I've only flown an airlocked skydive canopy a few times, but have always been fascinated with the concept in BASE. And if anyone has a clapped out Blackjack/Fox/Flik, I'd be willing to give some sewing a shot to see how it works...

If you haven't already, check out THIS thread...

I've got 400+ jumps on an airlocked canopy and love it but I don't know if the different design considerations of BASE would make airlocks more of a con than a pro?

It's mentioned several times in the thread, but Brian Germain would be the first guy to talk to about that.

one thing that doesn't get mentioned as much, is the stowed factor.

if attempts to avoid hitting a cliff fail, it is conceivable that the jumper will suffer a broken arm, be knocked unconscious, etc. in that situation, it might be nicer to have both toggles stowed. it will have become a real horrible jump.

this is only food for thought, and NOT a recommendation.

I think whatever you chose to use when a cliff strike is imminent, you want to get your knees up and feet out in front of you....especially if you don't wear body armor or a helmet.Obviously do whatever you can to avoid it, but if your going to hit it use your feet to avoid taking it with your face or body.

^^^Not sure about that. I've heard the argument that you're better off trying to disperse the impact across most of your body. I'm thinking, wear a helmet and save your legs.

fuck, helmet or not, i'm saving my head!

helmet or not, i'm saving my head!

Yeah, look at Calvin19

Again, just a mental exercise at
the moment, but I'd treat it like
a horizontal PLF and try to absord
the impact gradually instead of
hitting the wall like a starfish.

Look at break dancing, parkour, etc.

How good are your legs going to be to you when your knocked unconscious sliding down a wall to your death?Or even breaking an arm or dislocating a shoulder?Thats going to make riser or toggle imput extremely difficult.Your feet and knees can take a lot more shock then the rest of your body.
I'm pretty sure that after you hit the most important things are going to be staying conscious, keeping your canopy inflated and having the use of both arms to fly your canopy away.You can still fly and land safely with 2 broken legs.But its your jump, so do whatever you thinks best.

I'm really curious what this would look like. You going to roll up the cliff? I've heard this suggestion before, but it doesn't seem possible, or desirable.

I looked for it and could not find it,
however, I did see a video on here of
a jumper who had an object strike at
the KL Tower where he put both feet
against the object, bent knees, and
then pushed off as he was turning.

Parkour #1

Parkour #2

Simple concept, difficult to execute,
like most things in life right? Hey a
marathon is simple, but not easy!

Well a pine tree breaks when bamboo
just bends, because of flexibility and
the ability to give way, really the same
philosophy is behind Tai Chi and PLF.

thats a horrible idea! have you ever done a belly flop? Feel like trying it into rock/brick/glass/steel? Use your legs as shock absorbers, thats what they are made for...

it's very possible. why would you roll up? if you are facing the cliff you would simply take the shock with your feet and possibly roll to one side. very similar to a rappelling bound.

acting like a starfish on a jagged uneven cliff face is a good way to royally fuck yourself up.

IMO of course.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that behaving like a starfish is a good idea. I can say though that I've seen several clips of people striking without their feet in front of them, and staying conscious and recovering. I've also seen some clips of people putting their feet up, and rolling over backwards and not recovering. I've seen/know of some pretty bad leg/ankle/foot injuries from trying to take the impact with their legs. Just saying.
(also, I'm not sure which strategy I think is best, just trying to throw out alternate points of view)

If it was a black and orange canopy that was me. I'll give my 2 dimes on this subject as I have before:

180's happen much, much, much, faster in real life than on youtube. The object comes at you a lot faster than you can imagine (even with dialed settings). You jump long enough 180's WILL come.....on what jump, who knows.

I was taught about the whole riser/toggle input deal but as people have said above, it just becomes "muscle memory". You don't really THINK at the particular moment, but more REACT. I have always been a toggle person (no real reason just what came natural).

If you watch the video in slow motion, I had the left toggle buried with the canopy turning....just not enough time. My reaction was to put my feet out and push off as hard as I could. May not be the best thing to do but at the time it was more of a reaction than a thought. Fuck it worked----landed in that grass landing area, got a ride back, grabbed my 2nd rig and jumped again.

We can talk about this until we are blue in the ass or face, but when (not if) it happens to you, trust me, it will be more of a reaction than stopping to think about and assessing the situation.

word

does it matter?

back to skydiving 101. the faster the opening -> the harder the opening -> the more it hurts. (I've got plenty of jumps on a Sabre, not a Sabre 2, wearing a video helmet. bad idea.)

PLF - one reason it works is to lengthen the time of the landing. as a bonus, it tends to protect weaker areas of the body.

wipeouts - sudden stops normally indicate broken bones. rolls or other such nonsense also extend the "impact time." I'd much rather be planed out in a swoop, trip, and roll across the ground than be in a deep stall 10 ft off the deck coming straight down.

summary.
protect yourself in the event of a cliff strike.
roll, PLF, or any other manuever that absorbs energy by extending the time until full impact.
what is best will greatly depend on what you are about to hit. most cliff faces are NOT smooth.

think about it before hand, and then fight to prevent it.

Johnny Utah wrote a nice piece a long time ago re: the toggle/riser issue.

But he's a base jumper, so it's not on this site.

 

Here's the link to the article.
Risers or Toggles
by Johnny Utah

There is some good videos on the issue on his site as well.
~Jake

Also dpends on the trim / type of your canopy. If I attempted "rear-risering" away in normal brake settings on my canopy then I'd probably hit the trees / ground before I'd completed much of a turn. The toggels by contrast are very responsive and I can flat turn very quickly. As a result, I plan to do this should the need arise before I jump.

Never jumped a Blackjack, but they appear to respond to rear-risers well, so your experience may be different.

As a result, I think the poll result is misleading as it stands; also there are a lot of jumpers out there that blindly follow what they are first taught, regardless of whether it is either appropriate or where the practice may have been superceeded by something safer...

Canopies can appear to be above your head and inflated but may not be fully pressurised. Static lines / PCAs / unpacked jumps all give rapid canopy deployment but at a slow speed meaning there is extra time needed for the canopy to pressurise (also true of short delays). Yanking on your control toggles will serve to depressurise the canopy on that side, and can easily cause a collapse in such circumstances.

I can speak from personal experience that "balling up" and presenting your side (I had a full-face paragliding helmet with only elbow and knee pads on) is also a good strategy for coping with a strike:
Did I think of that before the strike? No...
Did it work? I didn't break any part of myself!
Would I use that strategy again? Yes!

I agree to what Robi says. It's nice to have some strategies and a plan what to do when you have a 180 on a slider down cliff. And we can talk about trim and brake setting and how to best impact with the cliff and blablabla. But when you see the cliff 3 meters away from you after opening you can screw all your good plans and strategies (I'm talking only from my experience). You will automaticly just try to not die. I went for the risers because this was the quickest I could do, but of course I still impacted the cliff. I did not think on how to impact, you can be 100% sure your body and brain will help you without letting you think about it. Then, because I was already on the cliff I tried to stall my canopy backwards. I dit this by panickly pulling down both rear risers as hard as I could and then letting go one riser to turn the canopy. But this was alson not possible because the cliff was not vertical and smooth. So I just impacted a couple of other times until I was able to grab a bush.
What I learned after this jump:
Toggles or Riser discussion is over rated. If you want to jump a slider down cliff which is not to overhung, it has to be a very nice jump and worth jumping it because if you have a 180 and you are close to the cliff, you are fucked in any way.

here's something for the proponents of toggles to think about:

What happens when you get that 180 and a linetwist or two?

i saw both a clean 180 and a 180 with line twist turned around right away at saquaro with risers, then when i had my 180 i used risers both at first then releasing the left and pulling more on the right but thats a tall slider up cliff i think the situation depends on low slider down A's toggels could be much more effective. wind blowing threw the object plays a part. in the words of hank when the time comes lord babie jesus will tell u

 i think it also depends on how deep your brakes are set combined with your current wing loading... of course i haven't had a 180 or 180 twist facing a cliff.

 you also might consider distance from the object, current altitude, wind conditions,and landing area below the object. i think there are way too many variables for a clean cut answer. the answer will come at the split second before impact or near miss .it will be correct, incorrect or unavoidable. of course unavoidable is often accompanied with criticism. all the should haves, would haves and could haves. but i don't believe you will ever know the answer until it happens.
however, the topic is imminent strike..... which means you are going to hit. in that case i would grab my toggles and flare like a motherfucker to lessen the impact. not quite sure about the p.l.f.ing up the mountain technique as previously stated. i'll play it by ear. i'm sure at this point body armor would be very appropriate and praying would also be an option for the religious folks.

I had a great one like that. 180 facing cliff, risers and toggles twisted. I immediately grabbed a brakeline over the twists, spun the canopy to the right direction, then worked on the twists. My brake setting is quite deep, so spinning it is easy with some added brake on one side. The side deflates a little bit and goes backwards - yet I trained such recoveries a lot before with twist simulation and spinnig the canopy around so I guess it helps when in stressful situation.

Just a thought as I haven't seen it mentioned, you may want to think about backing up a little before attempting to turn away. If you've taken a short delay off of a lower object (300'-400') and you try to turn away you might not get very far.

Thanks for WAITING to tell me...fucker.

Greeny,

Was this the one your talking about it, I don't know if he's doing an uphill plf or just jamming his feet into the wall, the commentry makes best of a bad situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIHr3gWsMVY&feature=related

He's just crashing into the building and being lucky. Imagine if you will, having almost no BASE jumps and jumping off wildly over hung building using a canopy with high forward speed.

First, there is a very talented guy
on here who posts under the name:
Greeny, who freefell 143' feet while
I on the other hand trip on exit

2nd, no sir, that was not the footage
I was thinking of at all, dride chimed
in saying it was him under Black and
Orange while that guy's canopy was
Blue and Orange, so obviously we
see a pattern here, Orange bad
canopy color, hair color maybe too.

3rd, yeah the commentator was being
cheeky or really clueless in my opinion.

i know this is a little nuts, and keep in mind that i read it from one of dwaine westons many thesis', but has anyone ever played with simultaneously cranking down on a rear riser while cranking the opposite front riser at the same time, trying to really yank that fucker around quick, and
what complications could this cause for the canopy? i played with this up in a skydiving environment, with a raven but ive never been faced with severe heading issues with my insanely large amount of BASE jumps, yet.................

You probably meant pulling on both rear and front risers on the same side?

In that video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIHr3gWsMVY), it seems this is how he saved himself. At 0:23, he seems to be switching his right hand to left front riser and then the canopy turns.

well thanks for pointing that out yuri. as per the video and the pic, it seems that the only thing that got him out of that shitstorm of forward motion was deflating that entire left hand side of his canopy?

i was thinking that pulling on the opposite front and rear ends would cause one side to pull back, and the other to thrust forward, causing a quick turn, but would that simply cause you to sink?

if i sound like an idiot well fuck it, im not tremendously experienced and i appreciate input.

I didn't and won't vote on this one. You should not limit yourself with a mind set like either/or. I use both. After 230 jumps I thought I was a toggle guy. Then I had a 180 on a underhung 360ish tower and used my risers on true instinct. After I KNEW I was clear I adjusted to my toggles which were already in my hands. I believe that I saved my own life by leaving all options open.

I haven't tried it with a base canopy, but my Esprit 170 and a 240, can't remember the make, that I flew for a while would crab when you pulled one rear and the opposite front and would slide sideways. Could come in handy I guess but not sure how it would compare altitude wise to just doing a flat 90 right then flat 90 left or vice versa. I don't recall feeling like it stalled and don't think I lost much altitude doing that with either canopy. Play with it on a skydive.