Basejumper.com - archive

Since everybody seems to be all over this again, lets see what the popular opinion is concerning the Baser reserve.

What's a baser?

 Who's everybody? I haven't found any fans yet. No I don't think the chest mount is intended to be used, but I do think the old rounds they plan on packing are still TSO'd reserves that are meant to save the jumper.

A last chance reserve system will come sooner or later, it is just a matter of time. It will be as naturally as an helmet! Before "hardcore" basejumpers did not want to use their helmets, for the loss of the freedom they felt. Just look now? The most hardcore jumpers have leg, back, ancle, albow protection and a helmet. Why should we not have a reserve system?

hmmm... but body armor does nothing but help protect, a reserve adds considerable weight and complexity.

We have to open our minds, and think outside the box. We do not need to make it as complicated as an skydiving rig do we? There can be different solutions for base that will work, and do not need to be as complicated.

I am still waiting for a container system opener for wing suit flying, we have discussed earlier on this forum. Also a intergrated back protection in the rig for all kind of jumping like we see in skiing sacks. It should be easy to have a flexible tail bone protection as well.

Time will show, but the jumping is going to be more specialized in the future with more organized events from buildings and other objects, and will require different systems.

I highly doubt that the belly mount reserve on the BaseR was ever intended to be used while base jumping. It is a separate attachment meant for when you are skydiving the rig only.

I agree we need to keep our minds open, but like Cliff said, I see no need for a reserve parachute system of any kind in BASE jumping. what we need is more reliable and faster ways to get the pilot chute out, open, and away. specifically with wingsuits.

Everybody? Not really. hehe...

You should see my Message box after posing that question to Shane. It was directed to Shane just to see what he had to say.

To answer your question though,It's rather obvious the reserve isn't intended to be used.

I guess the Sorcerer would be an better option now that we have new fabric in the canopies, and maybe that rig have possibilities that can be reborned? Still the risk is minor, and a one canopie rig is still a almost perfect system. The only week point is the pilot chute, and bridle.

Description Sorcerer

The SORCERER is a piggyback double square system much like a state of the art skydiving rig. The main is deployed with a throw out pilot chute pouch located at the bottom of the container. The reserve container is packed much like a main container, and the reserve can be repacked in the field with no more rigging than two pull-up cords. To completely dial in your reserve, it is necessary to manipulate your reefing system on your reserve to suit the altitude of the particular object; for instance, slider off or mesh slider up. The uniqueness of the Sorcerer lies in how the reserve is deployed. Extensive testing on this system has been done with excellent results. In a cutaway situation, with a no slider reserve, opening is achieved within the range of .96 of a second to 1.16 of a second. Taking into consideration the forward speed of the main, this is approximately 40 feet, from riser to riser. Using a mesh slider, an opened canopy is overhead between 70 to 80 feet. After years of extensive research, development and actual use, the SORCERER is the only dual parachute system on the market today.

Video http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...uploads/sorcerer.mov

The problem with wing suit is the reserve pull for a total, is located at your neck!

nature of the BASE jumping has create the path about 9-10 years ago. Sorcer was out as the system w reserve. Now, you can't find it anywhere. Why?! Statistics again...
How many people died due the canopy malfunction?!

Reserve has nothing to do w BASE jumping. It is actually dangerous, as I see i.e. that many newbies would jump higher walls and from very beginning would trade the altitude for higher pull, instead of track away.. ( to have chances for reserve ... if something is wrong w main..skydiving mentality) Complexity of heaving reserve is impossible to avoid.. it is not about ''thinking ot of the box'' it is just wrong thinking. Nowdays equipment has so many areas for improvement..

PS. The reserve on BASER is strange looking.. at least they could consider cleaner shape of the container. 35 years ago some designs were out already and were by far nicer that this ''box''looking container.
PS2. I don't want to even think how many jumpers would search the ripcord on the MLW instead on the top of reserve after cutaway.......

I aggree with you about the statistic with a total. Still there is as I pointed out the weekest point, the pilot chute, and bridle concerning the wing suit flying first of all. We have also seen some line overs that in most cases turned out with minor happenings, but also some few with serious incidents. When we now go from x number base wing suit jumps a year, to xxx we will se an increase in happenings with pilot chutes and bridles involved. Maybe I am wrong we will se.

The baser is just for the organizer to show the object owner they have a second option on organized events.

agree w problems u mentioned. PC + bridle ! That is require good understanding of how this works, flying skil and right choice of bridle and PC.
Line over - more or less the problem why that happens is addressed and w newer canopies w shorter lines and cascades this will happened less and less.
main problem is that general knowledge and experiance in base and about base is lower than used to be ( people getting in the BASE earlier =trend), while the equipement is better and statistics remain the same.

I also forgot to mention the weakest point is the pilot chute and bridle except the pilot himselves! I did say this before in the other tread ;-)

im trying to figure out why you are comparing the sorcerer to the baser.

I thought we where talking about a Baser "reserve"?

If someone wants to use it...fine. I think it's a useless, false sense of security. You don't often see fatalities because the parachute failed to deploy. Most are situations that would not be helped by a belly reserve.

Low pull is number one. How would a belly reserve help if they're already too low for their first to work? Off heading w/object strike is the second. I would think that when a person has an object strike, they have enough to deal with. Getting a second canopy out, which may make their situation worse, is the least of their worries.

Sure, a reserve could help with line-overs, improper rigging/packing (like pull up cord on p/c), severe line twists and a few other situations. Again, this is under the assumption that jumpers will be deploying at an altitude that would enable them to even use it.

That said, a round is going to open slower than a square. Especially sub terminal. In most cases, I could see the jumper cutting away a possibly survivable main and towing a round to terra firma that is not inflated.

Im not specific thinking of a round reserve saving a base jumper where you cut away and pull a reserve! Im thinking of a emergency system due to a total there nothing is coming out due to pilotchute/bridle error! It can be a container opener, or a just save your ass chute of a kind! Germany had/have on organized events you need to have a belly mount reserve system.

I think everybody is WAYYYYYYYYYY missing the point on this. First point being, if you don't like the BASER more than the gear you have, don't buy one.

Props to Sonic for beating the FAA at their own game. The belly mount is a ridiculous, antiquated, and ineffective "reserve", because we all know the BASE joke, that I don't BASE without a reserve, I BASE without a main. If I bought a BASER, I would cut up an old sweatshirt or jacket, and cover the reserve. It doesn't say that it has to be useable, just says the standard blah blah blah legal BS that the FAA spews.

Not all of us jump at USPA dropzones. For several reasons. The idea is that you can have a BASE rig to jump the local A, that will also be "legal" to jump from the legal Airplane. You can unclip the chest mount, and not use it. You can keep it on for a BASE jump. You can do whatever you want, because, again, it is you who ultimately chooses your gear and, ultimately, your fate. And I like to pitch low with BASE rigs from airplanes. Is anyone saying that pitching low over a farm or field is the same with a freepacked Vector, or your sweetie BASE rig?

It doesn't seem that anyone is bashing Sonic's design or workmanship, which is interesting. I love my skydive rigs, and I love my BASE rigs. The right tool for each job. The belly mounted reserve sucks ass, and everyone is agreement with that. Nobody is telling you that you would/should/could/want to use it. Its not Sonic's design, but the antiquated and ignorant policies of the FAA that require this sillyness. Sonic just figured out how to play by their rules, and win the fight. "If" you want to legally jump a single container, BASE-style rig from an airplane, without getting the pilot busted, you can! Just bring this silly box that will get in the way on your chest, that is 40 years old, and of inferior design. And make sure that the little stitched on tag is still there that says its FAA TSO'd.

Its essentially another manufacturers BASE rig design, with a couple clips on the front. With a little sticker that says FAA a-ok. Overpriced because of that little sticker. Thats all.

I think its an incredible accomplishment, in fact.

nicely stated.

another thing, is I believe the market that Sonic is addressing is NOT the experienced jumper. he is going after the newbie with money. this rig lets them get more information about the sport, while remaining at the comfort of the dz.

and yes, Sonic got does NOT seem the best spokesman for BASE, or BASE instructor. I'm fine with that, as long as he limits the scope of his course and points them in a safe direction for more information. if he wants to call it a FJC, who cares? that is marketing claptrap.

I'd like to hear comments about how Sonic conducts the course. anyone sit through one?

one aspect of BASE is to know your equipment, it's strengths, weaknesses, how to configure it, and when it is not appropriate.

the Helium and Trango are not everyday equipment.
Sonic's stuff is not for everyone either.

my friend Steve Morrell (BASE 174) used his reseve three times on BASE jumps. It saved his life. Rick Harrison (BASE 38) used his reserve two time on BASE jumps. It saved his life. Both men got open in some cases as low as 20 feet. Now the root cause of those malfunctions is open to debate.

i spoke to sonic @ summerfest 08 - he said NOT to cutaway in the event of a malfunction, just pull the reserve . . .

yeah, that's what a tersh reserve is for, like people used to do many years ago. it has something like a 20 foot bridle so it can conceivably provide drag far above any mess above your head. it's simply to prevent death. Mark Hewitt with his wife Marta co-invented the Sorcerer since his moto was "who would want to land under a tersh?" however, there has been at least one Sorcerer fatality - a high speed spin that was cutaway which resulting in a reserve canopy that had multiple line twists, resulting in an uncontrolled canopy, and subsequent fatality. A round is the only way to go in my opinion if one should choose to use a reserve.

 
I'm imbarest that I haven't kept up with this better. Help me out here. My understanding is he's building a base rig around an existing TSO'ed harness design. Is he just useing old belly warts? Is he building one of the old tso'ed designs? Which one? If you want a cleaner rig is any one useing an old Flatpack or something like that with it? There were a couple of later model chest mounts that were a lot cleaner and lower profile. If he has a TSO he could make a few minor changes and make it a lot cleaner.

Lee

I have no idea what the guy is doing. Dirty looking and functional base rigs with d-rings mounted on the front for a tersh were not uncommon back in the day. i'll ask some old timers if they ever used their tersh rigs when their main base canopy malfunctioned.

as I understand it, Sonic talked to JumpShack. JumpShack is building the rigs. they tweaked an old TSO design as Sonic desired.

see post #19 for a nice summary of much of it.

the reserve appears only to make the rig legal to take out of an airplane. I've seen no real recommendation to jump with it on a BASE jump. you can, but why?

Lower center of gravity.

Someone finally gets it.

Most of you still haven't wrapped your heads around the concept.
THE RESERVE IS FOR SKYDIVING! So jumpers can be allowed to skydive their base gear. If you guys keep discussing wether the belly mount reserve is necessary or not for base jumping then you are completely missing the point of this rig. Let it be said again:
YOU TAKE THE RESERVE OFF WHEN BASE JUMPING!

thank you.

There were a few UK jumpers in the late 80's/early 90's who would always have a tersh on above 600'.

Many of the early Containers had D-rings on the front. The tersh was generally seen purely as a life saver not a limb saver. But having said that, I witnessed a full cut away and reserve deployment off a 1000'A in the South UK using standard skydiving gear ( Racer/UnitII/Featherlite Res.). This was before purpose made Base Rigs became the general rule.

With Base Specific gear, I think now, the idea of a reserve on a Base Rig is dangerous. If you do have a problem, a decision has to be made as to wether you deal with the problem you have or go for a reserve. A thought process that could eat up valuable altitude and put a jumper past the point of no return.

The point I think I am trying to make is, If you want to Jump a Base Canopy from a plane, then stick it into an old student Rig.

It might only be a matter of time until you see a guy with no Base experience, huck himself off something with his 'Baser' (might even have his reserve still hooked up) just because he thinks he has the experience of jumping with a Base Rig.