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Lookin at buying new harness/container for my fox 245, vented and valved. The mod. made it tough to get neat packjob because relative short sideflaps on older velcro rig. Debating to buy apex DP or the new Apex V velcro rig. I do quite a bit of solo jumping, and therefore question ability to do pre-jump bridle, pin, pin protector flap changes reliably. Anybody in these rooms do low, subterminal, solo jumps with dual pin rig?? Any reservations doing so??
386

I can't believe I am going to post this, but yes, I have 50 200'-500' jumps on an Apex Dp, with 42"-48" pc's. I love my rig and have never had an issue with it. Sometimes on the dirty low shit I will open the flap and half prime the pins, but I feel safe to say it doesn't make any difference accept making me feel better. I also have several jumps on a velcro (reactor 2) off the same towers and don't find a reason to choose a velcro over a pin rig if you also do terminal/tracking suit/wingsuit stuff. I would like to own two rigs if I could afford it, a velcro for low stuff only, that way I wouldn't have to switch slider/pc stuff. There is only two other jumpers that are part of our "crew" every week, so I do a lot of solo jumps, although I always bring a ground person just in case. Now who wants to batter me?

no reservations using a pin rig. spectra closing loops can be used and can also be made longer. about the only thing you may slightly worry about is the wrap around pin cover vs the tuck cover like the gargoyle. at this point I see no advantages to velcro.

This post was to get feedback from jumpers who solo low objects with dual pin rigs. If another jumper asks why I with over 400 jumps would ask this question, they are missing the whole point and maybe they should do a search function on "lick my balls"!
thanks to 666 and racha for consideration and polite post.
Tom A may edit my post if too offensive!! Sorry dude.

I basically have a crew of 1 unless I travel.

My current rig is a Gargoyle, I do not have
a lot of jumps but of the bandit jumps I do
have most are between 190' and 400'-ish.

I am seriously thinking about a 2nd rig,
if so it will definitely be a velcro for the
low, solo jumps!

Why do you feel that Velcro would DEFINITELY be your choice for low jumps ? Really interested in hearing as much detail as you have in this opinion.

cheers

Yeah, like the previous poster noted, I'd like to hear some reasoning behind that as well. I have owned both velcro and pin rigs but most of my jumps are on pins. I have maybe something around 50'ish solo SD jumps and see no reason why velcro would be superior over pins for that stuff. In fact as most of my solos are off A's anyway I prefer pin rigs since I feel more comfortable on climbing through stuff with pin rig as I can be certain that it stays closed until I pitch the PC. With velcro I'd be worried about hearing that velcro peeling sound in total darkness climbing through the structure to the exit point while the wind is blowing... And on top of that I feel way more comfortable on doing low FF's with pin rigs. (When I talk about low FF's I talk about stuff in the 200'ish ft range, your definition may vary). I feel that with pin rigs the force needed to open your rig is way more easy to adjust and also to get more constant, whereas with velcro the force needed to peel it really depends on how you mate it and from what angle the pull force is coming from.

i agree with maretus's thinking. i've got nothing against velcro, but i think pins are better for me all around.

but, if you do want a velcro rig, i've got a sweet all black brand new Reactor4 kicking around if you want it.

a pin check before gearing up with a covered pin flap, there is no reason to use velcro. hell, there is no reason to use velcro ever. velcro rigs belong on the wall of the restaurant next to the leather backpacks and wooden skis.

low solo objects? don't the usually provide some of the toughest access issues? as in you have to squeeze yourself through holes WEARING your gear?

sweet all black brand new Reactor4

Yes, I am interested!

What is the largest size canopy it can hold?
My current canopy is a 285 and my 2nd rig
would be the same or maybe one size up.

Why would the BASE gear manufacturers
still even make velcro rigs if pins were
just the best all round thing since KY?

Well of course most people on here have
more jumps, more objects and more years
in the sport than me so my opinion is only
partly based on my own experiences... I've
jumped and packed maybe 7 different rigs
in my short time -- 5 pins and 2 velcros.


Benefits of Velcro
-simpler
-harder to pack a total
-easier to perform solo gear check
-consistent pull force needed
-slightly easier to close
-harder to open prematurely going HH
-one can hear if the seal is being opened


Now please do not get me wrong, I just
sold a cool camo velcro rig and bought
a brand new custom Gargoyle that I love
and jumped it, SOLO, SL, from 190 feet!

Pin rig. Easy to pack. Rigging is straight forward if you have basic rigging skills.

I do all altitude jumps with a pin rig. I prep slightly different if it's on the low side.

i use a velcro rig for going handheld "most of the time". when i got my perigee pro, CR recommended against using it for handheld jumps because of the potential for pulling the pins too early.

Velcro rigs belong on the wall in the restaurant next to the leather backpacks and wooden skis.

pete i believe brought up a point which was a major concern. All my concerns were essentially based on low jumps and going handheld with pin rig, accidental extraction of pin. I personally do not go stowed from below 400'. I have no concerns re: pin rigs on stowed jumps, just to clarify.

They have to say that. It's true however, just don't pull the pins. We (as in most of the worlds base jumpers) go hand held regularly with pin rigs. I've got a lot of hand held jumps all on pin rigs.

can you please expand on those points ?

As prefaced before in my earlier post
not all of these ideas come from my
own personal experience....

Packing a total malfunction, well not a
huge worry for me with my extensive
SKY experience and some rigging skills
but nonetheless one can pack a total
much easier with a pin rig.

Hearing the velcro lets you know when
your arm has pulled the bridle to the
limit where pins do not make noise.

Other than extremely head down, the
force to open velcro is the same while
pack volume and closing loop length
and material affect pin tension.

Ah hell you get the drift... chances are
all of these are cake for you and like I
said my only BASE rig at the moment is
a 2 pin but eventually I do want to have
a second rig and I had been thinking it
would be cool to have a velcro container,
and a huge 305 Troll with vents for the
super low static line jumps.

simpler? compared to pulling a pull up cord through two groments

hard to pack a total? compared to pull out some slack from the bridal attachment point to the first pin

consistent pull force needed? dont suck at packing

slightly easier to close? the flaps are bigger on pin rigs

harder to open prematurely going HH? if you pull out ur pins going hand held you might be retarded or hulk hogan

In my opinion the only advantage of a velcro rig over a pin rig is on static line jumps. Sometimes getting to the launch point after you have hooked up your static line can get kind of sketchy. You can at least hear or feel the velcro rip if your pulling on your bridal.

Since no one has ever successfully gone in under a total on a velcro rig (the same can not be said for pin rigs, even given that for years virtually all BASE jumps were made on velcro rigs), I think that's a valid point.

what about the Moab fatality where the shrivel flap was not hooked up ? I would consider that a total

so when it comes down to it its a rigs reliability not knowing how to pack and paying attention to rigging? doesnt matter how perfect your rig is if your an idiot shits still gona happen

Perhaps I used the wrong term. I was thinking of a container lock, and probably should have used those words rather than "total."

The velcro container still opened as intended in that case. I think there's a difference between that (failure to attach the bridle to the canopy--which could happen with either pins or velcro) and a container lock (pin not extracted at the time of impact).

I guess the point is that it's a lot easier to lock-off a pin container (leave the pull up cord in), but even an improperly hooked up shrivel flap would still likely come off.

On a realistic note - I believe more people died from pull-up cords and rubber bands on their PCs than from locking off their containers. Either one is a very foolish thing to do, and I am sure as the gear gets safer people will take more chances and start finding new ways to go in.

I remember reading part of a study that concluded people appear to assume a steady amount of risk. make things safer and they then try something new...

errors hooking up a pc, rubber bands/pull up cords on pc's, pull up cords left in the loop, unfamiliarity with 3-rings, etc., seem ripe for some sort of Darwinian act. but you got to love them, they make my issues look mild!

eyy dude...use ducktape instead of velcro, then you don`t need pins.

I jump a vented 266.

I have SL'd 173', gone handheld from 220' and stowed from 290'...nothing low by BASE standards but low enough for me.

I would use my Apex DP or my Perigee 2 velcro rig on any jump I've ever done.

If I know I am packing for a SL or go and throw HH with my DP, I will route my bridle differently...and then prime my pins and expose the three rings.

On my velcro rig for the same jump, I prime the bottom of the shrivel flap slightly and expose the three rings. The velcro/shrivel flap assembly is nice because you can adjust the bridle length after the flap and run a 5 or 7 foot bridle for SL jumps...and you can do this AFTER packing to tailor your gear for a specific exit point. I prefer this to the "loops" I put into my DP bridle repeatedly for tieing off some length below my PC attachment point (if there is a PC on the bridle even).

Yo 386!
If you buy a Velcro rig. Be sure to get a coupla extra shrivel flaps and you'll be good for a long while.
The major problem with Velcro is that it wears out of course. The tighter the pack job, the faster the deterioration of the fastening strength. So maybe consider getting a container that is a bit roomy.
Take care,
space

I'd be happy to be a collection point for them.

I second that, I need a cheap velcro rig for dirty low water jumps in my home town, 220-240ish, made for a scrawny bitch, got one?

what about the Moab fatality where the shrivel flap was not hooked up ? I would consider that a total
If you're talking about Bill Frogge, I was right there and he just didn't hook his bridle to the bridal ring........It had nothing to do with pin/velcro. But yeah, it was a total mal, he had NOTHING out when he impacted.

Because he did 10000 dollars in illegal drugs in a single month before this incident. That is the real cause, IMHO.

i just don't understand it...
why get a velcro rig for low jumps?
in my humble opinion there is nothing a velcro rig can do better than a pin rig.
put on the right loops, prime them and it will consistently open faster than any velcro setup.
if you are not being completely high or retarded you will not rig a total mal on a pin rig.(the wingsuit shrivel flap could be an execption but since there is no proof yet...)
they indeed belong next to the wooden skis and leather backpacks.
it's not i wouldn't jump one anymore...but if you can choose, choose pins.

velcro is idiot proof, which is important to consider if one wants to jump another twenty years, occasionally will jump tired, pissed, buzzed...etc. Thinkj I've made my decision.I'm anal as hell on gear checks, hell I even tug on bridle until I hear velcro to assure myself I've got continuity. Try that with a pin rig..

reverse the pins...you can follow the bridle to the upper pin with your hand.
if you need the sound of velcro peeling just install a piece of velcro on the shoulder and tag the bridle there.
problem solved.

for handheld jumps at least...

I like my velcro rig when doing solo jumps for the same reason, Dr.

what's this "consistent pull force needed" pro-velcro point?

i wear velcro shoes because of the consistant pull force

historically, pins fell out of favor in the early days of BASE because there were several times that the pins inadvertantly pulled while people were climbing towers. Secondly, many of the skydiving rigs that were commonly used at the time frequently had widely variable pull forces, even pack job to pack job, even weather dependent. This resulted in many pilot chutes in tow. I actually prefer velcro when going hand held or when climbing towers since it generally does not catastrophically fail and it is noisy. i really would like to include a light pin attachment to my velcro rig but that may be causing more risk than any long term benefit. I have had a velcro rig dump on me at 600 feet while climbing a tower too. That is why I carry a quick draw. I was able to clip in on the tower and reel the canopy in, stuff it into the stash bag, and climb down. We now, of course, have much better pin rigs, better protection for those pins, and more consistent pin extraction forces. I had a friend climbing with one of the first modern pin rigs and his pins popped at 500 feet because the pin cover was misdesigned. He contacted the manufacturer and the problem was remedied. I did also experience a slight PC in tow on my last jump with my pin rig that most likely resulted from packing too much bulk on the bottom, resulting in a harder pin pull. I really have no problem jumping either type of rig, but I really prefer velcro when going hand held. Old habits die hard I guess since my first rig did not allow me to go stowed easily. I made more than 100 jumps handheld even for terminal (required some special techniques with the bridle) and I never had a problem. Guess it depends on what you are jumping, how much the back of your rig is exposed to being dumped during ascent to the precipice, and if you are going handheld or stowed.

done it. works nice

Which prob is solved? ?

So you just make a pin rig sound like a Velcro rig and this solves the difference? I don't understand in the context of this thread how your reply is applicable. Would it not be like I saying that "I have "silent Velcro",makes one's Velcro rig sound like a pin rig."
I am not following you.
Let us/me know,
Take care,
space

it's for hearing velcro peel...to make the old timers feel all warm and velcro-y.

and yes silent velcro would emulate a pin rig.
you're following very well!

edit: stupid me! of course it would not emulate! the *plop* *plop* would still be missing!

the continuity check problem of 386 is solved by reversing pin and following the bridle over the shoulder with your hand.

Risk homeostasis

I believe is what you are talking about-


I think it relates well to base jumpers....

http://psyc.queensu.ca/target/index.html

I have his text, but also found it online, a good read if you enjoy risk theory. I like risk theory, it's a fun topic... much more interesting than debating things in the hangout such as economics or abortion...

_justin

I once heard my pins extract (at the correct time) and I had this like 1 nanosecond thought that it sounded like running over a squirrel in a car...

I do not think that 386 is having a continuity prob question. You young Alkaseltzer guys think you got it dude. Plop plop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is. We old timers had only the one fizz to rely on to know if the thingy worked.

As for the other post about risks and human interaction with risks, the "Peltzman Effect" comes to mind. Also you could check out these links:
The Surprising Risks of Playing It Safe
http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2893122&page=1
and
The Hidden Danger of Seat Belts
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1564465,00.html

Take care,
space

Risk Homeostasis in Skydiving attached as .doc file.

That is funny.

I thought you were gonna "Hook a brother up",,,,,,,,damn atleast keep it in the family.

i know you don't want it... you've already had it once.

plus, no reason not to have pins if most of your jumping is in the valley.

at least keep it in the family

Dude, that's not cool, we might not

have met yet but I am Home Team.

Hey 460. Just sittin here at work at 0500 and laughed my ass off on the following quote...".I made more than 100 jumps handheld even for terminal (required some special techniques with the bridle) and I never had a problem. Guess it depends on what you are jumping, how much the back of your rig is exposed to being dumped during ascent to the precipice, and if you are going handheld or stowed. "
When I went to Europe with Bill Legg years ago he had a fuckin rig he couldn't stow a p.c., and went handheld from brento!!! Was that the same rig???